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Same here, if you need anything reviewing at all, please don't hesitate to PM me.
I have recently received a request for reviewing some material for an independent 3PP, so I must be doing something right. I now feel more confident in offering my services to you should you wish to avail yourselves of them.
Good luck with everything you do, and fingers crossed for you all.
Agreed, but the point I'm trying to make is that some people take it upon themselves to "solve" this problem by immediately jumping on it and ripping it to shreds, or saying the solution is to just get rid of it. I don't believe that's happening here, but I've seen militant reactions that are hurtful (to both men and women) elsewhere before.
It's like with sexy halloween costumes. Everything gets sex-ified and then the people who take offense and see it as anti-woman or something similar respond with slurs and hate... some of it directed at men, some of it directed at the women who participate in the whole thing.
Speaking as someone who does lament cases of gender activism gone too far in the sex-negative direction (I believe that I mentioned my distaste for the particular social justice stance of Ms. Sarkeesian in an earlier post, independent of my regret for the abuse that she suffered), I completely see where you're coming from.
However, maybe it's just me, but sometimes my escapism comes from playing the really ugly, repugnant character. I suppose it's personal bias that comes from years of gaming with the unhealthy escapists--the V:TM larpers who all play Toreadors and use in-game relationships as a surrogate for sex, the "kender" archetypes who see the game as a blank check to dick over their party members and complain about the consequences because "the game's about having fun," the guy who forces himself into the position of "party leader" and shouts down other players, incidentally while lamenting that in real life, he has just flunked out of military officer school--but I often find a lot more joy in playing the misfit rather than the strong-chinned hero type, and all of the sexual baggage that comes with that. I see that path , however, consistently better represented in male than in female characters, and I don't think that's entirely the independent choice of a bunch of unrelated female players but rather indicative of a larger attitude toward certain aesthetics of heroism.
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From what I've always gathered, it's not that the sexualization of the female form is inherently offensive, but rather the ubiquity of the archetype and the lack of any clearly displayed alternatives.
--the rest of this cool post regrettably omitted for space--
...(Or even if that's a little lacking, because the escapism, and there is an element of escapism and wish-fulfillment with role-playing, of gaming has sure helped me through some rough spots where I just needed to take a break and not be me for a couple hours.) I don't see it as any different than a guy playing a character with six-pack abs and a through-the-roof charisma. With women, though I think there's such a mix of strong opinions here that this subject gets really difficult.
--same as above--
It's that, and the assumption that male power fantasies = female sexual fantasies. Note the complete absence of bodybuilder/Conan types in Glamour's 100 Sexiest Men lists, for example. Not only are the vast majority of female characters highly sexualized, but the characters that are supposed to be good with the ladies reflect what (presumably) men would like to look like rather than what women like looking at.
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@ Guys who offered to participate in girl design support group
I, for one, prefer a multi-gendered sort of feedback and dont generally presume that a Y-chromosome means lack of thoughtfulness. But I know that other women somtimes feel difIO lferently with a male presence in the room.
I'm not organizing it, but I support including guys that are interested in participating and have a genuine interest in seeing women gamers succeed and be happy in the hobby. As long as they are prepared for what might be some really challenging discussions. :-)
With regards to sexually charged gamer imagery. I have always admired that Kyra (cleric iconic) is nice to look at, but not sexy. The paladin iconic also keeps her girl bits inside her armor and the barbarian is sexy and underdressed but not a shrinking violet, for sure. The inquisitor iconic is a little bit green and tusky for most peoples tastes. Thats a pretty good track record for very visible characters for a very successful gaming company.
Notable fact: I am hard-pressed to think of other examples of oft-used non-cheesecake lady-images. At least its a start.
Please forgive typos and punctuation .on tablet...
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I have always admired that Kyra (cleric iconic) is nice to look at, but not sexy.
(For context for these statements, I am male.)
I've long thought Kyra was the most attractive female iconic, the generally coolest-looking of all the iconics, and the iconic whose general look/presence most gives me the impression of being a really awesome person. Seeing her picture makes me smile and think Pathfinder's doing pretty well on this front.Then I remember that Seoni exists, and my thoughts shift down to "Well, at least they included Kyra..."
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With regards to sexually charged gamer imagery. I have always admired that Kyra (cleric iconic) is nice to look at, but not sexy. The paladin iconic also keeps her girl bits inside her armor and the barbarian is sexy and underdressed but not a shrinking violet, for sure. The inquisitor iconic is a little bit green and tusky for most peoples tastes. Thats a pretty good track record for very visible characters for a very successful gaming company.
Not to argue against that point but rather to show how differently different folks are wired...those three are actually the ones I'd consider sexiest out of the female iconics, along with Seelah.
Can't really explain it.
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From what I've always gathered, it's not that the sexualization of the female form is inherently offensive, but rather the ubiquity of the archetype and the lack of any clearly displayed alternatives.I completely understand the want to be the sexy character. In basically every game I've ever played, I've had at least one "the sexy character." The issue that gets brought up time and time again is that the sexy character should be a possibility, rather than an inevitability. Were I playing many an older roleplaying game than Pathfinder, the artwork and tone of the rulebook would have established that my male player's lithe, handsome half-orc maestro sorcerer could have just as easily been a bookish wizard or a brutal barbarian, whereas my female player's sexy priestess of Calistria could have been a sexy wizard, or a sexy barbarian, or a sexy priestess of a deity of piety and chastity.
BAM!
Seriously, offering variety and a wide range of visuals cuts down on a lot of these problems.
Female characters, be they heroes, villains, or whatever else, should be able to be as built, scarred up, grizzled, ugly, handsome, badass, stylish, scary, or whatever else as the males.
The end argument in the Best Game of 2011 episode of Hey Ash, Whatcha Playin' is highly relevant here.
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By that I don't mean Paizo art, or the old TSR stuff. I mean the Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta art depicting a buxsom topless femaled chained to the saddle of the conquering hero, or the dainty buxsom topless female cowering while the conquering hero stands between her and imminent death, or worse! Give me a strong Deja Thoris, or Red Sonja, type any day.
Just a quick defense of those artists, especially in the case of Frazetta: While they've done plenty of "damsel in distress with strong dude between her and danger", they've done a lot of art with absolutely confident, not-submissive-at-all women, particularly Frazetta.
They have a lot more variety going on in their art than they often get credited for. And honestly, I love a lot of their female characters for the fancy-pants skullcaps and headgear more than anything.
though then again, Vallejo did do a lot of cover art for Gor....so...yeah...sometimes it could get bad...
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Important matters first:
Imrijka is in my personal opinion the hottest iconic, male or female. She can pass judgment on me any time she wants, baby.
(I'd try to cosplay as her if I could manage to grow another foot. And had the resources to put a costume that complicated together.)
Other matters:
In case I didn't say it already, I'd be down for some kind of girl gamer design think tank. But that said, I don't do Facebook or Google+ (steering way the hell clear of the former, and for Google+, while I think they ended the policy, I really want to go by my username and I'm terrified if I do they'll delete my whole account like they did some other people). So if that ends me being counted out, so be it.
We could also try to start a thread here (outside of the Superstar forum, where more people will see it) just to get some ideas going. We will get inevitable peanut gallery comments ("well you would yell at ME if I started an all-male design group" [to which I'd say, "No, I wouldn't, I call your bluff. Go for it."]) but could probably get some valuable ideas spun about regardless.
I think it is sad that this discussion is even happening, or rather, that some people see a need for it. This is a consequence of a rather cynical view of RPG fans, indeed, in general fans of speculative fiction. The old adage goes simply that "sex sells", but how true is it? Really? After all, we don't see people having sex on too many RPG book covers, do we? Furthermore, there is an ocean of movies and pictures of people having sex out there, FREE, today. Why go to RPG books for it? So, if not sex, then maybe "hotness sells"? As in, well-trained, obviously healthy, beautiful people? The kind of people everyone, really, would want to be if they had a choice? Closer, I think, but still, if that is what you want, you have fitness and such magazines enough to plaster your apartment every month. Why go for the RPG product? I don't find this issue simple. I once read a criticism of Howard's work, where it was said that the expressed fetish in the text was POWER, and I think this captures the essence pretty well, despite the fact that the covers usually got interpreted as painting women unfavourably. However, I think there is a final part of the puzzle. We are all human, we can admire a beautiful human aesthetically... but that doesn't necessarily mean you WANT that person, or that you can identify with that person. We also want someone to feel human, we need things about this person we can recognize.
I may be rambling here, but my conclusion is that maybe "sex sells" is too simplistic. We can find lots of people hot, sexy, desirable... and it gets easier if we can have a feel for them as people. In a way, the strategy Paizo uses with putting their iconics repeatedly in artwork could be a way of doing this. I'd say it's working. I noticed a while ago that while there is no shortage of Seoni boobage, the images of her that got the most interest from me were the ones without a "sexy" focus. To me, the 3rd edition iconics are sort of the antithesis of this. I admit I never read the T H Lain books, but none of those iconics were possible to get a sense of as people.
I'd say if Ezren shed his atheist bitterness (as I always interpreted his main picture), he'd be awesome.
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I always liked Imrijika because I thought she looked like Carmen Sandiego. ...But deadlier. ...And greener. <<;
I just want to to take a moment and say that with my earlier posts I wasn't trying to make it sound like I'm encouraging sexism, over sexualization, or unhealthy escapist behavior. I think we can all agree that if someone is displaying unhealthy coping methods or is being a jerk at the table, they need to knock it off.
The point I was trying to make is that what one person might find exploitative, another person might find inspiring. Regardless of gender. Seoni got brought up, for example. One girl might find her over-sexualized while another might think she's beautiful and want to play a character like that. I have had a couple of female friends page through my gaming books, thinking it's all about pwning doodz with big weapons only to be like "...Wait, I can be the Femme Fatale business woman in the pencil skirt and the Louie Vuitton heels?"
Every Pathfinder iconic strikes me as strong and capable. Yeah, maybe Seelah's armor conforms to her boobs, but she's standing strong and confident and she looks like a warrior with a purpose.
I think there is something to be said for playing the non-traditional or the somehow distasteful character, but I don't know many people who picked that archetype for their first character. That's more why I was making my point, because I think we're talking about how to get more women involved. Every gaming book has to assume that it is simultaneously someone's first exposure to the material and their four-hundredth exposure to the material. As the unofficial newbie-helper in our group, most of the first characters I've helped build fall into the following categories:
1.) A fantasy themed or "idealized" version of themselves (i.e. a guy in the army builds a super soldier or a girl who's into chemistry builds a mad scientist)
2.) A concept lifted from a TV show/book/movie (i.e. Can I make a character kinda like Rogue from X-Men?)
3.) Whatever looked the coolest after paging through the books and looking at the pictures (i.e. Oh, I want to be kinda like this one, but like... with a horse for an animal... not a wolf. ...Can I do that?)
Basically, they tend to not be the really off the beaten path, non traditional character that was being discussed. There are always exceptions. I ran a V:TM play by post game a while ago and one of my friends, after looking through the book, came up to me and said (and this is a quote) "I've decided my first character is going to be a Nosferatu. I want to be insanely intelligent, hideously ugly, and naked."
All I was really trying to say, to put it in the context of Firefly, was that characters like Zoe and Kaylee should be a clear and prominant option, and so should Inara. It takes all types. But I really can't think of a single gaming book that I've looked through recently where I didn't feel like I had all those options. Feel free to point me towards any recent works that might fall into that category.
I want to make a "Give The World a Coke" style add with all the different characters that have come out of my group... So Wise Old Woman and Beefcake and Bishonen and Cat Girl and Courtesan and Awkward Computer Hacker and Disfigured Avenger and Girl-Who-Wears-Accurate-Armor-And-Covers-Her-Lady-Bits can all hold hands...and so long as everyone involved feels respected and feels included and is having a good time, who cares?
I just want to point out that some takes on bugbears could possibly tap into the largely untapped Bear-market.
Probably not Golarion's bugbears though.
Of course, speaking of Frazetta and Vallejo, I also found this during the same search. Given the proportional difference, I'm guessing she's supposed to be a halfling.
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I'm very glad that this discussion is going on and that it's being conducted in a civilised manner... That having been said, it may be that things are starting to shift, given that a lot of people have also come out in opposition to that kind of misogyny.
Things have changed a lot in the last few decades, that is certain. Here's a flash from the past. I know I am both amused and horrified.
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I'm very glad that this discussion is going on and that it's being conducted in a civilised manner... That having been said, it may be that things are starting to shift, given that a lot of people have also come out in opposition to that kind of misogyny.
Things have changed a lot in the last few decades, that is certain. Here's a flash from the past. I know I am both amused and horrified.
That redhead.... I bet she's not even a real geek... ;)
In seriousness, thanks for pointing that out, and I do think there have definitely been improvements in the industry.
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For those asking about the writing support group, a few of us have been chatting and while I can't speak for all of them, the general feeling is we don't want to exclude anyone. Once we get ourselves organized, we would like to have a presence here, so we can continue to grow as a group, but do our actual writing on a private forum so our raw work isn't on display for everyone. So, stay tuned to to this bat channel for further details.
I am really glad to see the support here so far and I hope that this is good portends of things to come.
IIRC, the woman in that old TSR at is the wife or girlfriend of one of the then-employees.
IIRC, the woman in that old TSR at is the wife or girlfriend of one of the then-employees.
I read a blog post about it - I wish I could find it again.
Oh Lordy Lordy - I remember that ad. Dear god, I'm old now, it's official.
Crap I remember that one too... I also remember the cartoon...
Yeah, depending on when in the 80's that came out, I was probably not even born yet. So you guys are old. ;)
Kidding. I totally bow to the experience of gamers who have been in this since the early days. I literally live less than an hour away from TSR's old HQ in Lake Geneva, WI, so I know people who have been into D&D since quite literally day one.
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Yeah I remember that ad. It came out not long before Mazes and Monsters hit the TV screen. Ah, the joys of being a gamer in the conservative 80s...
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Yeah I remember that ad. It came out not long before Mazes and Monsters hit the TV screen. Ah, the joys of being a gamer in the conservative 80s...
You just had to bring up that movie, didn't you. I'd almost forgotten it. Another year or two and I would have been able to look at
Tom Hanks again without flinching, but no....
You just had to bring up that movie, didn't you. I'd almost forgotten it. Another year or two and I would have been able to look at Tom Hanks again without flinching, but no....
>:)
All things considered though, that ad was very inclusive. Five normal appearance young people sitting around a table gaming, with two of them girls. Considering it came out not long after the trade advertisement given above, you've got to wonder about the marketing plan. There seemed to be a mixed message.
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Well, since we're having an image party...
A friend of mine sent this to me earlier when we were discussing this topic.
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Well, since we're having an image party...
A friend of mine sent this to me earlier when we were discussing this topic.
You should check out the Hawkeye Initiative, or even better: Male superheroes see how the other side lives.
That bugbear pic is still killing me. It's so well done, but he's got a nearly naked halfling on a chain. Why?
"Hulk find this inappropriate" Snerk!
Boy, is wolvie filling that outfit...
That bugbear pic is still killing me. It's so well done, but he's got a nearly naked halfling on a chain. Why?
Because a nearly naked umber hulk could be inconvenient?
The final picture on "THE LINE IT IS DRAWN #79" is the best. "Smile"
On the other hand, I was always considering some 90% of male superhero outfits ridiculous so not that I thought that women were treated very unfairly...
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Going to the OT thing about images of women in comics and fantasy art...
Just an interesting little exercise...
and
Are images of bona fide Olympian athletes. They are people at the top of their game in their athletic field and considered "fit" if not moreso for the area in which they excel. All but 2 are women (if you google "athlete body reference" or something similar you can find similar pictures including of more men).
How many of the women's body types in the photographs do we commonly see in comic and fantasy art as of "fit," heroic or athletic human women?
That bugbear pic is still killing me. It's so well done, but he's got a nearly naked halfling on a chain. Why?Because a nearly naked umber hulk could be inconvenient?
Well, the title of the piece is "Bugbear Mercenary" not "Bugbear Slavemaster." You'd think trying to fight with a halfling slave chained to you might be inconvenient, unless we're talking about a new exotic weapon proficiency.
Undoubtedly she's his payment; hence, the "mercenary."
Ahhh, I know... it's just a matter of the bugbear not having managed to get rid of her. She was attached to the spiked leather strap he wanted to put on, so more or less without noticing, he got stuck with her. He could take off the leather strap, of course, but it looked so badass.
That, or halfling-flail. I wonder if you could get a halfling-dire flail, with two nearly naked halflings?
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What they don't tell you is that she's a Frenzied Berserker, the chain is actually her weapon, and he has the Fling Ally feat.
;)
Yeah, depending on when in the 80's that came out, I was probably not even born yet. So you guys are old. ;)
Kidding. I totally bow to the experience of gamers who have been in this since the early days. I literally live less than an hour away from TSR's old HQ in Lake Geneva, WI, so I know people who have been into D&D since quite literally day one.
I'm in the same boat, right down to being part of a community of "legacy gamers" who are way older than myself.
Honestly, as much as I would have loved to have been around in the old days (I would have killed to be around when FASA released Bug City for Shadowrun for the first time), I think we grew up in a great era for tabletop gaming. The medium has really adapted to use technology to become easier and more accessible, rather than--what many expected--becoming replaced by video games.
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interesting pics on healthy/fit IRL vs in fantasy:Going to the OT thing about images of women in comics and fantasy art...Just an interesting little exercise...
and
Are images of bona fide Olympian athletes. They are people at the top of their game in their athletic field and considered "fit" if not moreso for the area in which they excel. All but 2 are women (if you google "athlete body reference" or something similar you can find similar pictures including of more men).
How many of the women's body types in the photographs do we commonly see in comic and fantasy art as of "fit," heroic or athletic human women?
The disparities are what make it "fantasy", ie fantastic, not real, over the top, etc. GIJoe isn't physiologically functional anymore than Barbie is. And that's the visible root of the problem.
As a mother of two girls and two boys, I'm faced with the wonderful challenge of raising confident women and empathetic men. It's not easy when even the teachers' first comments at conference are how pretty, vivacious, helpful and obedient my girls are vs. how competent, smart, capable and challenging my boys are. I actually had to take a teacher to task about that because she didn't seem to realize I was as interested in my daughter's academic performance and my son's social competence as I was with everything else - and more so than in what she thought my children's social graces were.
The issue is really about expectations and socialization. If society didn't judge women by their appearance in lieu of their ability, this art style would not be insulting to women. And if society did not judge men by their physical prowess in lieu of their other qualities (like empathy, emotional intelligence, social intelligence, etc), this art style would not be capable of objectifying women for men to begin with.
We teach our children what to value in others via our choices, our words, the people we invite into our lives, etc. This is a generational fight, and so long as progress is being made, I think that's all we can really ask.
Somewhat random (on topic, but not related specifically to what's being discussed at the moment)... Are you guys familiar with the d20 Girls Project?
Their quarterly publication is free on DriveThruRPG right now. A friend of mine shot me the link to it. I haven't gotten a chance to really dig through it, but I figured I'd share and see what your feelings on this sort of thing are.
Lemme see!
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Writing Group Update:
We have a decent core of women that are working out how best to utilize Google Groups, InvisionFree BBoards (we could sure use someone better at CSS than I am ... as I am learning as I go!) and Social Media.
Again, I urge anyone interested in this to PM me - that includes you guys, as we do need different perspectives.
@agirlnamedbob - OOOOO! I will have to check this out! Same end-goal, likely, after all!
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I had a look at the website and was given the impression it was a "Goth Booth Babe" agency... It seems a touch exploity of Gamers of all genders.