I think our DM's turning me into the final boss.


Advice

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My character became a giant a few sessions ago, now out of the blue he's turned her into a vampire.

So now if I die, I can't be resurrected, but I'm now really powerful for a 9th level character, and I'm really disturbed by it, because it means he's got something bad in mind for the party.

The more I think of it, the more I believe he plans on turning me against them and making me the final boss.

I don't want to be the big bad, though, what should I do?

I asked him and all he'll say is wait and see, I'd be less worried if he was turning the rest of the party into more powerful beings, but it's just me, forcing me to be in charge, it's making me a bit uncomfortable.

What do you think?

Should I keep trying to talk to him or should I just make her go away and roll a new character before he makes me kill the party?

Shadow Lodge

Is this happening as a result of in-game events - you got defeated by a vampire and turned, you picked up a cursed belt of giant's strength and got the size along with the stat boost, etc.? Or is he just up and saying "hey you're a vampire now"?

Definitely talk it over with him, and let him know up front "Hey, I'm not comfortable with the idea of possibly getting turned against the party, I'm not okay with PvP" or whatever you need to say to get your point across. Be honest and forthright with him, no dancing around stuff, and try to get him to do the same. In the end, he can't make you do something you don't want your character to do (short of mind-control magic, anyway) and if he's trying to pull something that makes you as a player uncomfortable it needs to be handled between you two as player and GM ASAP.


I really think you should talk to him since it's inhibiting your ability to have fun with the character.


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One option is to trust him. It might end up fun! If it turns out he's a s~&+head, then you'll know in the future.


See, if we were starting a campaign and I came to him and said "Hey, can my character be a twelve and a half foot tall half elf vampire Sorcerer" and he said yes, I'd be ecstatic right now.

But he made me one on his own (and yes, there was a plausible reason for it to happen), instead of letting someone else be a vampire, since I'm already a giant.

The fact that he made me both is unnerving.

Although, to be fair, there is that small part of me who is giddy about it, considering the benefits of being a Large vampire (slam attack, for example), but the rational part of me says this is bad news.


Unless you fail some will save, your PC is your PC. It would be helpful if you could tell us how you ended up a giant vampire though as the method by which you're changed can help determine if you're being picked on willy nilly, or if it you're just the victim of circumstance.

If talking to the DM doesn't work though, and he ignores you (he may just be yanking your chain) and ends up doing something you don't like, have a contingency. For example, maybe you bought Giant Bane, garlic laced weapons, and arrows of Reduce Person?

Shadow Lodge

I think it would be decent of the GM to at least say "no, I'm not planning on forcing you into conflict with the party." He doesn't have to tell you what he's planning or if he's planning anything in particular at all, but obviously this possibility is causing you some discomfort and interfering with your enjoyment of the game and he would easily be able to remedy that. If you know that he's not planning on turning you into the end boss it will be a lot easier to trust him on the particulars.

And if he is planning on forcing you into conflict with the party, that's a bit of a jerk move.

Contingency plans are a good idea, if your GM keeps being evasive. It's entirely reasonable for your character to be worried that with her newfound strength and tendencies towards bloodlust she might pose a problem for her teammates, and act accordingly.


Well see this is a problem that results from changes in the game... over the years.

Used to be you become a vampire, poof you're an NPC, your character is lost, make a new one.

Now, what. How can he MAKE you attack your party or turn against them? Only if you become an NPC.

This why Evil alignments weren't allowed. Why Giants weren't PCs , why all orcs were evil and if you became a vampire you were an NPC.

But that has changed.... so if you remove all the old stigma, and your not an NPC... how can you be the BBEG? It's still you and you're choices....

By the way, IF you are a Vampire, don't you HAVE to feed by drinking blood?

That's an evil act.... so is your character already evil, or did you become evil?


Proley wrote:

Unless you fail some will save, your PC is your PC. It would be helpful if you could tell us how you ended up a giant vampire though as the method by which you're changed can help determine if you're being picked on willy nilly, or if it you're just the victim of circumstance.

If talking to the DM doesn't work though, and he ignores you (he may just be yanking your chain) and ends up doing something you don't like, have a contingency. For example, maybe you bought Giant Bane, garlic laced weapons, and arrows of Reduce Person?

Short version.

We entered an ice cave, there was a gate encased in ice, also a dais with a shield identical to one I had picked up early in the campaign.

We melted the ice, we determine that to activate the gate, we need to take the sword that came with the shield and insert into the dais, The sword is too small, so I enlarge myself and try again, the gate activates and I become permanently large, and my bloodline goes from Aberrent to Stormborn.

We go through the gate and find Olympus, where my character's father, unknown to her at this point, greets her.

It's Zeus.

Activating the gate awakened the dormant storm giant blood in me. (This part I like, because my character eventually wanted to be a giant, not necessarily this soon in the campaign, though.)

Zeus tells us we need to visit all the gates and restore them to prevent the world from ending, shortly after a mysterious book comes out of the gate and a black cloud poisons Zeus, knocking him out.

I am the only one who can touch the book without being harmed, because earlier in the campaign, we defeated an evil wizard that stole my body, and his archenemy, a vampire named Chance, took a liking to me and gave me an amulet to protect me.

We determine we need to destroy the book, so we head to the next gate.

In the dungeon, the party has several near fatal encounters, and a couple of fatal ones.
(Two characters dropped and I went from 84 hit points to -19, and my Con is 20.)

Meanwhile, a tiny imp starts following the party around, making a nest in my hair.

We find a scroll of Raise Dead and enough diamond to revive one of the characters (the other one had an idea for a new character he wanted to use anyway), we decide it's time to examine the book and see if we can learn anything.

They hide and I start to read.

It's an evil children's book called "Lessons to Learn"

As I read it, a black cloud envelops the room and the imp demands I give him the book, I fry the little sucker with a lightning bolt, after which the black cloud swallows me.

DM takes me aside and makes me roll a will save, I get a 25 and pass, I still need to feed and when I do, I have to make a will save to stop myself from abandoning the party and returning to Chance, but until then I have prevented myself from turning evil.

So now I'm a Chaotic Neutral, 12'8", 24 Charisma half elf Vampire, normally awesome, presently terrifying.

We open the next gate and step in.

We're in Hell, where we need to destroy the book.

And that's where we stopped.

Like I said, the whole situation is rather unnerving and prevents me from enjoying what would normally be considered a jackpot, power-wise.

Because I know, whether I asked for it or not, I'm probably going to have to pay for it.


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I am glad I am not in this campaign.


Pendagast wrote:

Well see this is a problem that results from changes in the game... over the years.

Used to be you become a vampire, poof you're an NPC, your character is lost, make a new one.

Now, what. How can he MAKE you attack your party or turn against them? Only if you become an NPC.

This why Evil alignments weren't allowed. Why Giants weren't PCs , why all orcs were evil and if you became a vampire you were an NPC.

But that has changed.... so if you remove all the old stigma, and your not an NPC... how can you be the BBEG? It's still you and you're choices....

By the way, IF you are a Vampire, don't you HAVE to feed by drinking blood?

That's an evil act.... so is your character already evil, or did you become evil?

No, I already fed by draining the imp.

My character's dedication to her mission, combined with a crucial will save allows me to keep it under control to the degree that I don't go after the party, basically I'll feed off of the enemies we fight.

But each time I feed, I have to make another will save.


What about drinking the blood of your foes, is that evil?


yes it is by RAW. any intelligent creature. It's being discussed in the Dhampir blood drinking feat thread.


How many times have I heard that one! I'm not evil, I'm chaotic neutral! Or, I'm lawful, I just follow my own moral code!


Byrdology wrote:
How many times have I heard that one! I'm not evil, I'm chaotic neutral! Or, I'm lawful, I just follow my own moral code!

Well, that's the thing, after being given the mission, the character has been trying to be a better person, trying to become chaotic good, this certainly throws a wrench into that.


Don't drink blood! Bad vampire!


Jonathan Michaels wrote:

I don't want to be the big bad, though, what should I do?

...
Should I keep trying to talk to him or should I just make her go away and roll a new character before he makes me kill the party?

You should go ahead and kill the party NOW, then blame him. It'll be much easier in the long run.


Why not drink the blood of animals? That isn't evil.

Good word this sounds as convoluted as one of my "munchkin" GM's games.
My half Drow was once surprised with a celestial/fire elemental heritage.


can you "slam" and drain levels using negative energy and remain (or become good?) Good clerics can't channel negative energy, why should good vampires be able to do it?

Player states she like to slam.... case in point she's draining life out of living victims using negative energy.... vampires are evil.... This isn't twilight, or angel the vampire with a soul.


Great gods of gaming... Is that the first campaign this guy is GMing? It could be partly due to your shortened way of telling things, but this sounds like insane amounts of deus-ex-railroad going on...

Do you have any way to NOT follow the quest? By for example saying "I'd like to try and find a way to lift my vampire-curse" or are you on a convenient just-enough-time-to-do-what-the-gm-wants-deadline?

Turning one character into a special snowflake and ignoring the others without agreeing on this with the players beforehand is just bad style in my eyes.


Kalridian wrote:

Great gods of gaming... Is that the first campaign this guy is GMing? It could be partly due to your shortened way of telling things, but this sounds like insane amounts of deus-ex-railroad going on...

Do you have any way to NOT follow the quest? By for example saying "I'd like to try and find a way to lift my vampire-curse" or are you on a convenient just-enough-time-to-do-what-the-gm-wants-deadline?

Turning one character into a special snowflake and ignoring the others without agreeing on this with the players beforehand is just bad style in my eyes.

Well, I'm pretty sure if we destroy the book, I can go back to normal.


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Pendagast wrote:

can you "slam" and drain levels using negative energy and remain (or become good?) Good clerics can't channel negative energy, why should good vampires be able to do it?

Player states she like to slam.... case in point she's draining life out of living victims using negative energy.... vampires are evil.... This isn't twilight, or angel the vampire with a soul.

No different than a wizard using enervate to drain life out of living victims with negative energy. And there is nothing stopping a good wizard from doing it.


Pendagast wrote:

can you "slam" and drain levels using negative energy and remain (or become good?) Good clerics can't channel negative energy, why should good vampires be able to do it?

Player states she like to slam.... case in point she's draining life out of living victims using negative energy.... vampires are evil.... This isn't twilight, or angel the vampire with a soul.

Not saying I like to slam, but being large makes the slam attack a lot more interesting.


enervation suppresses levels, doesnt drain them, no way for it to become a permanent negative level. You can't slay someone with it and/or create undead via the victim being drained.

It is a necromancy spell, personally I don't allow good alignment necromancers either, and use of necromancy spells over a long time, indiscriminately, will shift alignment at my table.

As Per RAW it's not listed with an evil descriptor, because of the above mentioned reasons as to why it's different. No permanent level possibility, it just suppresses life force... so it IS different from what a vampire does.


IF it were me, playing an IN game personality.

What would my character do?

Would my half elf be happy about being a giant?

Did I have plans to make with some cute person back in freeport, settle down, have a family?

do I want to look for ogres and hill giants as potential mates?

As a player saying "COOL MORE POWER" is different than getting changed.

An evil or CN barbarian who seeks power and more carnage getting turned into a giant vampire might think COOL.

A more normal type character...not so much.

ME? I wouldn't be going along with this at all.

There is some book that I think might be responsible for turning me into a giant, or vampire or both?? I know it can BE destroyed, is there a logical reason I'm not doing that right now?

IS there reason to believe that destroying this book will return me to normal in short period of time and by following our current path, we will come into reasonable possession of the means to destroy the book..

Right now, my sole focus would be removing the effects that have been applied to me,

IF I can't or the plot isn't heading in that direction... I'd find some way to throw myself off a cliff.

I mean heck, if we are doing crazy out of game power gaming stuff, why not make an out of game decision not to go along with it?

Shadow Lodge

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Pendagast wrote:
It is a necromancy spell, personally I don't allow good alignment necromancers either, and use of necromancy spells over a long time, indiscriminately, will shift alignment at my table.

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Please someone else explain to this guy why Necromancy and Negative Energy are not intrinsically evil, because I'm going to blow a gasket if I try.


Some times it's hard to come into a good group, with a good dm and players. Have as much fun as you can, and if you are not having fun, then talk about it. If you are digging it, then roll with it (no pun intended).


Orthos wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
It is a necromancy spell, personally I don't allow good alignment necromancers either, and use of necromancy spells over a long time, indiscriminately, will shift alignment at my table.

*HEADDESK*

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Please someone else explain to this guy why Necromancy and Negative Energy are not intrinsically evil, because I'm going to blow a gasket if I try.

because good clerics can make zombies and channel negative energy, right?


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There are plenty of harmless necromancy spells. Is disrupt undead evil? How about false life?


I should be clear, up to this point, he's been a damn good DM.

The current scenario is just problematic.


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A good necromancer would refrain from animating dead though, as that is evil. That kind of takes the power out of studying necromancy.

Not sure if negative energy itself has an intended alignment... but the plane sure sounds evil:

Golariopedia wrote:
the Negative Energy Plane is the home of countless undead creatures, many of them intelligent and extremely powerful. In fact, the plane is the source from which all undead draw their power and un-life.

So I could see a GM ruling that Negative Energy was evil... kinda the same as saying energy from Hell is evil by nature.


The material plane is home of countless evil mortal creatures, many of them intelligent and extremely powerful. In fact, the plane is the source of almost all mortal evil.

:P

Grand Lodge

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I personally dislike home brew Rules. things like necromancy is inherently going to change your alignment.

Seriously??? next you will be saying you cant be a good witch because they all have Hex's.. or for that matter Magic is the work of the devil and that we are all sinners for playing "Dungeons and dragons" within our life times. next time you decide to change the rules step back a bit and think about how your game Pathfinder is actually affected by your decisions as a whole the game system is balanced to be enjoyable for everyone. there is some power creep (for the power-gamers) there is alignment for the Role-players and in the middle there are those that enjoy the rules those that if you stated that was the way you ran your game they would just walk away from your table.

ok rant over...


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Aranna wrote:

A good necromancer would refrain from animating dead though, as that is evil. That kind of takes the power out of studying necromancy.

Not sure if negative energy itself has an intended alignment... but the plane sure sounds evil:

Golariopedia wrote:
the Negative Energy Plane is the home of countless undead creatures, many of them intelligent and extremely powerful. In fact, the plane is the source from which all undead draw their power and un-life.

So I could see a GM ruling that Negative Energy was evil... kinda the same as saying energy from Hell is evil by nature.

On the flip side, the positive energy plane gave birth to Qlippoths and will kill anyone who goes there(without protection).


Yes but I believe the current official ruling states Undead are evil and the creation of them is an evil act.

No such ruling exists for the prime material plane... which can spawn all manner of differently aligned creatures. If anything the prime material plane seems neutral.

So yes by RAW you will become evil if you make a profession out of creating undead.


Aranna wrote:

Yes but I believe the current official ruling states Undead are evil and the creation of them is an evil act.

No such ruling exists for the prime material plane... which can spawn all manner of differently aligned creatures. If anything the prime material plane seems neutral.

So yes by RAW you will become evil if you make a profession out of creating undead.

Yes, creating undead will make you evil but casting spells like enervation, energy drain and vampiric touch won't.

Silver Crusade

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Orthos wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
It is a necromancy spell, personally I don't allow good alignment necromancers either, and use of necromancy spells over a long time, indiscriminately, will shift alignment at my table.

*HEADDESK*

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Please someone else explain to this guy why Necromancy and Negative Energy are not intrinsically evil, because I'm going to blow a gasket if I try.

LOL, dude, your post gave me about 5 minutes of good solid laughter :)


That does seem to be the case by RAW leo1925.

I was just saying earlier that I wouldn't blame a GM for including direct uses of negative energy under the evil label as a house rule. But yes the only supportable cases for alignment drift toward evil would be the creation of undead.

Silver Crusade

Pendagast wrote:

enervation suppresses levels, doesnt drain them, no way for it to become a permanent negative level. You can't slay someone with it and/or create undead via the victim being drained.

It is a necromancy spell, personally I don't allow good alignment necromancers either, and use of necromancy spells over a long time, indiscriminately, will shift alignment at my table.

As Per RAW it's not listed with an evil descriptor, because of the above mentioned reasons as to why it's different. No permanent level possibility, it just suppresses life force... so it IS different from what a vampire does.

I was under the impression that Enervation could kill a target; the target still suffers from all negative effects that come with lost levels to include hit point loss. If enough hit points are lost, the target should die right?


boost that Will-save as much as possible every time you feed. assuming that you have CLoak of resistaance and a +4 wis headband, otherwise Owl's Wisdom every time.

The best way to keep from turning is to tell the GM you really don't want to, and at least ask him to write in some kind of interesting Plot-hook that will result from turning that will give your character back. after something cool happens


Aranna wrote:

Yes but I believe the current official ruling states Undead are evil and the creation of them is an evil act.

No such ruling exists for the prime material plane... which can spawn all manner of differently aligned creatures. If anything the prime material plane seems neutral.

So yes by RAW you will become evil if you make a profession out of creating undead.

This is what im trying to say.

Casting off the necromancy spell list is dabbling. someone might say, hey man...that spell gives me the creeps.
You might get some very negative social reactions from using spells like vamp touch etc if people see you do it.
Even raising a gaggle of undead in a single situation to save the lives of yourself and the party isn't a reason to have every good party member have a hissy fit (hope the paladin was unconscious when you did it)
You and the party might have a discussion,,,, Ummmm I didn't know you could cast that.....

But being a necromancer, and hand picking a few spells off the list ins't going to get you far in your career. I can't see a necromancer going to 20th level without an alignment shift... they make, and control undead...and eventually most of them try to become undead.

So when one 'dabble's in necromancy, that gets everyone else wondering....
What does it look like to others.
Explain to the town of lawful good halflings with pitch forks and torches... nono no... Not 'Necromancer'.... MAGUS say it...its easy....-MAY-GHUS..... no see technically that spell isnt evil, yes yes i know it's "necromancy" but see, really it;s not...."
Going to be a long drawn out explanation to say the least.

Now make a life time habit of casting necromancy spells like I said, and I have a hard time not seeing a alignment shift somewhere...

It's a far cry from "remember the time that bard found the raise zombies scroll in the treasure and then all the lizard men came and were going to eat us? But he used that scroll and gave us enough cover to escape with those zombie lizard men? yea wow that was close...."

Grand Lodge

Pendagast wrote:

enervation suppresses levels, doesnt drain them, no way for it to become a permanent negative level. You can't slay someone with it and/or create undead via the victim being drained.

Wrong...enervate can very much kill if your neg level reach their HD.


waiph wrote:

boost that Will-save as much as possible every time you feed. assuming that you have CLoak of resistaance and a +4 wis headband, otherwise Owl's Wisdom every time.

The best way to keep from turning is to tell the GM you really don't want to, and at least ask him to write in some kind of interesting Plot-hook that will result from turning that will give your character back. after something cool happens

just blow up the plot device,,, er i mean book.


How good is your will save? Can you reasonably be expected to make DC 20-25 saves everytime you need to feed? Since the save only comes when you feed (or get to hungry I guess), can you have someone buff you enough to make the save easily? Depending on the risk, I can see this as a problem.

For a neutral character, with much bigger issues to deal with than getting cured of vampirism, I can see to a certain extent justifying the use of enemies as a source of sustenance. I mean, most parties loot the corpses anyway, and stealing from the dead is hardly moral in a real world sense. You generally do not seem comfortable with these powers, and you cannot help that your body adds on negative levels, so I cannot count against you for that at least. The powers are somewhat seductive, so I can see you getting a bit darker over time if you continue to use it. But over all, for the scope of this situation, I would not think that negative effects of the slam are as morally problematic as the possibility of your mind being turned.

For the discussion on whether negative energy and necromancy are intrinsically evil: well, honestly, how 'good' is stabbing that same creature in the face with a rusty sword or blowing their head off with a scorching ray? Combat it savage and gritty. Even a pristine paladin should have at least some moral ambiguity over the use of their skills against living, thinking creatures. While raising the dead obviously is evil, for many necromancy spells, I think it is more about their use rather than their effect. Necromancy is the art of manipulating life, and thus I think it could be approached in a somewhat medical fashion. Some people have objected to the practice of dissecting corpses, but it is essential for medical training that would save lives. Of course, some necromancy spells are made with the idea that they would be used for evil purposes, and as such can be unnecessarily... grim. So take the moral ambiguity with a grain of salt.

Shadow Lodge

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Pendagast wrote:
Aranna wrote:

Yes but I believe the current official ruling states Undead are evil and the creation of them is an evil act.

No such ruling exists for the prime material plane... which can spawn all manner of differently aligned creatures. If anything the prime material plane seems neutral.

So yes by RAW you will become evil if you make a profession out of creating undead.

This is what im trying to say.

Casting off the necromancy spell list is dabbling. someone might say, hey man...that spell gives me the creeps.
You might get some very negative social reactions from using spells like vamp touch etc if people see you do it.
Even raising a gaggle of undead in a single situation to save the lives of yourself and the party isn't a reason to have every good party member have a hissy fit (hope the paladin was unconscious when you did it)
You and the party might have a discussion,,,, Ummmm I didn't know you could cast that.....

But being a necromancer, and hand picking a few spells off the list ins't going to get you far in your career. I can't see a necromancer going to 20th level without an alignment shift... they make, and control undead...and eventually most of them try to become undead.

So when one 'dabble's in necromancy, that gets everyone else wondering....
What does it look like to others.
Explain to the town of lawful good halflings with pitch forks and torches... nono no... Not 'Necromancer'.... MAGUS say it...its easy....-MAY-GHUS..... no see technically that spell isnt evil, yes yes i know it's "necromancy" but see, really it;s not...."
Going to be a long drawn out explanation to say the least.

Now make a life time habit of casting necromancy spells like I said, and I have a hard time not seeing a alignment shift somewhere...

It's a far cry from "remember the time that bard found the raise zombies scroll in the treasure and then all the lizard men came and were going to eat us? But he used that scroll and gave us enough cover to escape with those zombie...

Creeps out commoners with 0 Spellcraft =/= Evil.

Poor social repercussions =/= Evil.

Necromancy =/= Evil.

Necromancers =/= always make undead.

You make many assumptions which are not true.

One of my favorite characters was a LG Necromancer Wizard who never raised a single undead once in her existence, and her only contact with dead creatures was through spirit/medium type rituals. So pardon me when this tired old cliche of "all necromancy is evil and will dag your alignment down" gets on my nerves.


dude stop coming up with "the exception has become the rule" examples just because you want to be alt.

That's why they kept it the way the did for sooo many years, which is why it should have stayed that way. LG Drow Paladins, LG Vampires that only feed on sick chipmunks to give them euthanasia and LG Necormancers that never touch icky undead.... please. stop.


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Pendagast wrote:
But being a necromancer, and hand picking a few spells off the list ins't going to get you far in your career. I can't see a necromancer going to 20th level without an alignment shift... they make, and control undead...and eventually most of them try to become undead.

I'm pretty sure that aligned spells have no effect on the alignments of the casters who use them. The descriptors are mostly for divine classes who aren't allowed to mess with certain things (good clerics don't get to cast evil spells).

Positive and negative energy is not good and evil in the slightest, and energy drain, while mostly an ability of undead and evil creatures, isn't aligned either.

Undead may always be evil, but when they are under the will of a particular spellcaster, they can still be used for good. If a wizard raises his foes as zombies and uses those zombies to save a town against a horde of [insert random monsters here], would you really say he's drifting toward evil after that?

And as for most of them trying to become undead... that's a bit of a large assumption to apply to characters.

Shadow Lodge

*sigh* Y'know, not worth it. I only have so much patience for these kinds of arguments, especially against someone so brutally biased. This whole discussion is ridiculously off-topic anyway. Bye dude. Send my sympathies to your players.

Also I have no idea what the heck "want to be alt" means.

Jonathan, good luck with your situation.


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I really wish cure spells and the like had remained necromancy spells. Healing being a subschool of conjuration never made any sense to begin with. Then nobody would think twice about LG necromancers.

Shadow Lodge

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