A Bloodrager can easily defeat this gauntlet. Exploiting some ragecycling with the arcane bloodline and this will be pretty easy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Bloodrager can easily defeat this gauntlet. Exploiting some ragecycling with the arcane bloodline and this will be pretty easy.
Post it.
I was using the term 'stand alone' to refer to a concept that does not require outside influence to be successful.
Leadership is a feat that requires GM adjudication. Some will let you build cohorts, some will present you with a set of NPC applicants, and some will let you approach only the NPCs present in the campaign. Table variation hampers the concept, as the rules don't spell out how things come to be.
The wish spell is another thing that can be a problem. There are several clearly defined abilities of the spell which could be used by a stand-alone build. Creative uses of the spell which are not in the description, however, would fall outside the concept of 'stand-alone' build.
Animal companions, familiars, eidolons, etc are fine, because these are things with a clear progression that is completely within the player's ability to define.
Does that make sense?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not really fleshed out, but...
15/14/16/8/12/8 Point Buy
16/14/20/8/12/8 Levels
26/20/30/8/18/8 Enh + Inh
HP 330 (20d12)
+5 Furious Courageous Phase Locking Guardian Weapon
Transfer +1 Enhancement to saves every round
Sacred Orc Tattoos = +1 Saves (+2 w/ Fate's Favored)
Superstitious + Human FCB + Courageous = +16 to saves
+5 Cloak of Resistance
Fort: +46 (Before rage)
Ref: +35
Will: +34
Attack: +34/+29/+24/+19/+14 (Before Rage)
Rage = +11 STR & +11 CON (w/ Courageous)
Rage Powers
Superstition
Witch Hunter
Spell Sunder
Beast Totem, Lesser
Beast Totem
Beast Totem, Greater
Elemental Blood, Lesser (Air)
Elemental Blood (Air)
Elemental Blood, Greater (Air)
Come and Get Me
Feats
Power Attack
E.R.P. Disruptive
E.R.P. Spellbreaker
Combat Reflexes
Teleport Tactician
E.R.P Strength Surge
Improved Sunder
E.R.P. Savage Intuition
E.R.P. Reckless Abandon
E.R.P. Internal Fortitude (Rage Cycle with a Flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon Ioun Stone)
Traits
Fate's Favored
???
Perhaps it was a bad idea, but I went for shutting down teleportation instead of shutting down illusions/concealment, etc. Your Mileage May Vary, I guess.
So, with Boots of Speed, this Barbarian can fly at 90ft and Pounce from 180 ft. With a Ring of Evasion combined with his high saves, he should be able to avoid most spell effects. Things like AMF can be sundered. He'll likely have a few Jingassa of the Fortunate Soldier on hand for the +1 AC (+2 w/ FF) and ability to negate a crit (vorpal weapons, man).
DR 10/- and a Raging HP of 430 should keep him going strong for quite a while, especially when the enemy is dying twice as fast due to Come and Get Me.
He has no defense against a no save Wish -> Geas, so he'll likely purchase a Clear Spindle and slot it into a Wayfinder to prevent such a thing.
Aside from that, he shouldn't do too badly with a couple of potions here and there. Assuming consumables are allowed?
Actually, what are the rules re: ioun stones? By default, there's only a 75% chance that a stone resonates, and I think PFS changes that. How are we handling those?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The question I can't believe nobody has asked is: does anyone even care if you can't play infinite Noble Scions?
Even if you only had 100,000 level 20 PCs per encounter, I'm pretty confident that you'd win. Even if the last cohort in the chain has level 1 in 20 different classes, just because.
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time getting around an infinite number of followers being a build to be considered. That to me isn't a build. That is an army and not valid in my opinion.
Meh, it might be a design choice that is valid at certain tables, but it is certainly not as interesting as the builds who can get it done by themselves.
I could see a witch/hex-crafter magus/accursed sorcerer/accursed arcanist doing well in this challenge by exploiting the trick in the highest caster level thread. But that's really only interesting in how absurd it is
The question I can't believe nobody has asked is: does anyone even care if you can't play infinite Noble Scions?
Even if you only had 100,000 level 20 PCs per encounter, I'm pretty confident that you'd win. Even if the last cohort in the chain has level 1 in 20 different classes, just because.
make the builds and post how they handle the challenges and i am sure we Will lean a good deal. If you Can make a build in 10 minutes and work every Day 8 hours we Will hear from you again in 209 days;)
You're off by an order of magnitude: that's only 10032 builds.
You're off by an order of magnitude: that's only 10032 builds.
i was just going with the 100000 level 20 Characters you were talking about. If some of them are identical copies in batches of 10 it Will be faster.
You Will save some time by going with the assumption that they only get NPC wealth+what the PCR get but it Will still cost you 4 week of full time job.And i am still ready to take back my comment of it being unplayable if you do it:)
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time getting around an infinite number of followers being a build to be considered. That to me isn't a build. That is an army and not valid in my opinion.
Still within the rules that the OP gave however.
As mentioned before, anything that paizo publishes or published for pathfinder is fair game.
To address Adept_woodwright and is premise for stand-alone: "refer to a concept that does not require outside influence to be successful."
It is GM discretion of what items are found in random loot, what is available to purchase. Strictly speaking of course. Well yes, the books have it, but the entire game requires outside influence (aka the GM), to function. Even if someone tries playing the game by themselves, they are the GM and thus their own outside influence determining what happens and what may happen in their game.
Correct me if I am wrong on this.
So you have basically a character with 880,000 gp that they cannot spend because whatever items the character wishes to buy, may not be available due to the fact that item availability is subject to GM adjudication.
This is an very strict reading of your point.
Yes, I present a limitless combo-loop for wealth, bodies, and other resources. Is it viable, yes. Is it reasonable, no. Will it ever be in a PFS game, never. Does it look good on paper, yes but very tedious.
This is a preliminary of Legion:
Alchemist 5/Noble Scion 10/Alchemist 5
Antipaladin 5/Noble Scion 10/Antipaladin 5
Barbarian 5/Noble Scion 10/Barbarian 5
Bard 5/Noble Scion 10/Bard 5
Cavalier 5/Noble Scion 10/Cavalier 5
Cleric 5/Noble Scion 10/
Druid 5/Noble Scion 10/Druid 5
Fighter 5/Noble Scion 10/Fighter 5
Gunslinger 5/Noble Scion 10/Gunslinger 5
Inquisitor 5/Noble Scion 10/Inquisitor 5
Magus 5/Noble Scion 10/Magus 5
Monk 5/Noble Scion 10/Monk 5
Ninja 5/Noble Scion 10/Ninja 5
Oracle 5/Noble Scion 10/Oracle 5
Paladin 5/Noble Scion 10/Paladin 5
Ranger 5/Noble Scion 10/Ranger 5
Rogue 5/Noble Scion 10/Rogue 5
Samurai 5/Noble Scion 10/Samurai 5
Sorcerer 5/Noble Scion 10/Sorcerer 5
Summoner 5/Noble Scion 10/Summoner 5
Witch 5/Noble Scion 10/Witch 5
Wizard 5/Noble Scion 10/Wizard 5
Bard, Magus, Sorcerer, Witch, or Wizard 1/Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger,
Samurai 6/Arcane Archer 3/Noble Scion 10
Alchemist (vivisectionist), Ninja, or Rogue 3/Wizard 3 or Bard, Magus, or Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster 4 or 3/Noble Scion 10
Any Class 5/Noble Scion 10 or Assassin 5/Assassin 5 or Noble Scion 10
Bard, Magus, Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 5 or Noble Scion 10/Noble Scion 10 or Dragon Disciple 5
Medium BAB Class 9/Duelist 1/Noble Scion 10
Medium BAB Class 4/Full BAB Class 3/Duelist 3/Noble Scion 10
Full BAB Class 6/Duelist 4/Noble Scion 10
Bard or Magus 7, or Sorcerer 6, or Witch or Wizard 5/Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Paladin, Ranger, or Samurai 1/Eldritch Knight 2, 3, or 4/Noble Scion 10
Sorcerer, Witch or Wizard 7/Loremaster 3/Noble Scion 10
Sorcerer or Magus 4, or Wizard or Witch 3/Cleric or Druid 3, or Inquisitor or Oracle 4/Mystic Theurge 2, 3, or 4/Noble Scion 10
Any class 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 5 or Noble Scion 10/Noble Scion 10 or Pathfinder Chronicler 5
Any class 5/Shadow Dancer 5 or Noble Scion 10/Noble Scion 10 or Shadow Dancer 5
Agent of the Grave
Arcane Savant
Battle Herald
Bloodmage
Brightness Seeker
Brother of the Seal
Darkfire Adept
Group Leader
Mage of the Third Eye
Celestial Knight
Champion of the Enlightened
Chevalier
Coastal Pirate
Collegiate Arcanist
Crimson Assassin
Cyphermage
Daivrat
Dark Delver
Deep Sea Pirate
Demoniac
Diabolist
Dissident of Dawn
Divine Assessor
Divine Scion
Envoy of Balance
Evangelist
Exalted
Field Agent
Furious Guardian
Genie Binder
Golden Legionnaire
Grand Marshal
Gray Warden
Green Faith Acolyte
Guild Agent
Guild Poisoner
Halfling Opportunist
Harrower
Hell Knight Commander
Hell Knight Enforcer
Holy Vindicator
Horizon Walker
Inheritor's Crusader
Justiciar
Lantern Bearer
Liberator
Lion Blade
Living Monolith
Low Templar
Mammoth Rider
Master Chymist
Master Spy
Mystery Cultist
False Priest
Natural Alchemist
Nature Warden
Pain Taster
Pit Fighter
Planes Walker
Purity Legion Enforcer
Rage Prophet
Master of Storms
Sanctified Prophet
Sentinel
Sleepless Detective
Soul Warden
Souleater
Spherewalker
Stalwart Defender
Steel Falcon
Student of War
Sun Seeker
Swordlord
Tattooed Mystic
Umbral Agent
Veiled Illusionist
Winter Witch
There are a great deal of combinations of classes that can be made. Some combinations may be more viable than others, but within Legion they work together.
For cheese, let's select Azlanti Humans for everything great about humans plus the +2 to all ability scores. Changing a 1st level feat to qualify for any race related prerequisite.
Throw on two miracles for two templates in this order: Young template, then the Advanced template.
So all the modifiers together come out to be:
Str +2, Dex +10, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +6; +2 natural armor
Miracles are better for templates because they encompass a broader spectrum of uses, just select the deity/belief system needed for desired results.
Here are the end modifiers for the ability scores, with out level adjustments; this includes the big 6 for items and the ability books:
Str +13, Dex +20, Con +13, Int +17, Wis +17, Cha +17
Legion isn't for everyone, it's sole purpose is a thought experiment for making a limitless loop.
If that isn't enough cheese, throw in a reduce person spell to make them tiny and into a swarm.
As long as Paizo keeps publishing material for Pathfinder: Legion will continue to grow that much more versatile.
Again, Legion is a thought experiment. Not something for actual play, just like this challenge.
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time getting around an infinite number of followers being a build to be considered. That to me isn't a build. That is an army and not valid in my opinion.Still within the rules that the OP gave however.
As mentioned before, anything that paizo publishes or published for pathfinder is fair game.
To address Adept_woodwright and is premise for stand-alone: "refer to a concept that does not require outside influence to be successful."
It is GM discretion of what items are found in random loot, what is available to purchase. Strictly speaking of course. Well yes, the books have it, but the entire game requires outside influence (aka the GM), to function. Even if someone tries playing the game by themselves, they are the GM and thus their own outside influence determining what happens and what may happen in their game.
Correct me if I am wrong on this.
So you have basically a character with 880,000 gp that they cannot spend because whatever items the character wishes to buy, may not be available due to the fact that item availability is subject to GM adjudication.
This is an very strict reading of your point.
Yes, I present a limitless combo-loop for wealth, bodies, and other resources. Is it viable, yes. Is it reasonable, no. Will it ever be in a PFS game, never. Does it look good on paper, yes but very tedious.
This is a preliminary of Legion:
** spoiler omitted **...
this is sad and misundestood in Many ways IMOP. There is not full build and there is nothing clever in suggesting you can take the advanced template with a micracle, that is just trolling in a thread like this. I am done with your attempt, your failed.
this is sad and misundestood in Many ways IMOP. There is not full build and there is nothing clever in suggesting you can take the advanced template with a micracle, that is just trolling in a thread like this. I am done with your attempt, your failed.
I was giving very strict readings, though feel free to extrapolate what you mean exactly.
If you're referring to my argument about buying items within a settlement, here is the link. I was giving a strict reading of item availability.
Again on item availability:
In a metropolis, you may have on average access to 7 major magical items, 10 medium magic items, all minor magic items with the 75% chance of a specific one with the cost of 16,000gp or less.
Currently, there are only a handful of ways around this limitation of purchasing power. One such way is available to rogues: Black Market Connections.
Loosening my reading of adept-woodwrights posts of GM adjudication and the OPs outline of what is available to the contestants. Because now we see that medium and major magic items requires a fair degree of GM adjudication, they shouldn't be available choices for characters.
So characters have only a very limited selection of items to choose from now if they are purchasing them and not crafting the item themselves. Unless they have access to abilities that allow them greater allowances.
I will also point out, that it is never stated where characters are acquiring their items. If people are crafting their own items, where are they getting the crafting materials. I will assume, that the assumptions were that characters just have access to the items no questions asked. Until now, where are they getting their items exactly?
------------------
To address the miracle spell, in addition to it duplicating spell effects we have:
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
Adding a template or two would be within the realm of powerful requests. It is also better than wish, because miracle does not have this wording:
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"
Nothing clever, just a straight forward power increase that is full of cheese. What's even cheesier is that if it is mentioned that an entity can be raised to deity status through having enough people worshiping them, then Legion can become even greater cheese.
The preliminary showing of Legion was just that, showing a few of the different possibilities that could be within Legion. Those lists were before the ARG and ACG came out.
As for a full build I am working on one using a rogue as a base class:
Rogue 10/Noble Scion 10
N Young (template) Advanced (template) Small Azlanti Human (Humanoid [Human])
Initiative +; Senses Perception +
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
HP 220 (10d8+10d8+60)
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 (+2 natural, +1 size)
Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +8
Immunities
Resistances evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Speed 30ft (6 squares)
Melee --
Ranged --
SA sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 36, Con 17, Int 25, Wis 21, Cha 25
BAB +14; CMB +14; CMD 24
Skills
acrobatics +20
, bluff +20
, climb +20
, diplomacy +20
, disable device +20
, escape artist +15
, intimidate +20
, kn (nobility) +5
, linguistics +20
, perception +20
, sense motive +20
, stealth +20
, swim +20
, use magic device +20
Feats Noble Scion of War, 1, exotic weapon proficiency (firearms), 3, weapon finesse, skill focus (stealth), hellcat stealth, 9, leadership, 11, 13, blind-fight, 15, stealthy, 17, shadow strike, 19
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Languages Common, azlanti, varisian, thassilonian, tekritanin, jistka, ancient osiriani, hallit, kellish, osiriani, polyglot, shadow-tongue, shoanti, skald, tien, vudrani, draconic, abyssal, infernal, celestial, aklo, undercommon, terran, ignan, auran, aquan, elven, giant, orc, goblin, necril, sylvan
Traits
SQ trap finding, trap sense +3 (+3 AC and Reflex saves vs Traps), rogue talents (firearm training, finesse rogue, fast stealth, rogue crawl, skill mastery), skill mastery (acrobatics, climb, disable device, stealth, swim, use magic device; 4 other skills)
affluent, greater leadership, aristocratic erudition, prestigious influence, regional expertise (the shadow kingdoms), dilettante studies (dilettante warrior (2) +2 on attack and damage rolls), servitor, peerless partician
Gear
head –
headband –
eyes –
shoulders –
neck –
chest –
body –
armor –
belt –
wrists –
hands –
shield –
ring 1 –
ring 2 –
feet –
Other Gear books (+5 all ability scores)
Other Notable Purchases Miracle for young template, miracle for advanced template
other rules Ultimate campaign rules about additional training, retraining, and getting the most from your stats (such as training for full hp and extra languages depending on intelligence)
This build will be getting even cheesier with nidalese shadow piercings, magical tattoos, and of course making slotted items into slotless items since wealth is of no object what with all the donations. We now even have access to super technology.
Not really fleshed out, but...
** spoiler omitted **
Perhaps it was a bad idea, but I went for shutting down teleportation instead of shutting down illusions/concealment, etc. Your Mileage May Vary, I guess.
So, with Boots of Speed, this Barbarian can fly at 90ft and Pounce from 180 ft. With a Ring of Evasion combined with his high saves, he should be able to avoid most spell effects. Things like AMF can be sundered. He'll likely have a few Jingassa of the Fortunate Soldier on hand for the +1 AC (+2 w/ FF) and ability to negate a crit (vorpal weapons, man).
DR 10/- and a Raging HP of 430 should keep him going strong for quite a while, especially when the enemy is dying twice as fast due to Come and Get Me.
He has no defense against a no save Wish -> Geas, so he'll likely purchase a Clear Spindle and slot it into a Wayfinder to prevent such a thing.
Aside from that, he shouldn't do too badly with a couple of potions here and there. Assuming consumables are allowed?
I dont know how this guy is gonna do it but i look forward to the end result:) i think CAGM is less amazing when every one have reach. And most are powerfull Spell casters.
Are all the enemies in Beastmass Outsiders? If so, I'll probably replace that Guardian ability with Outsider-Bane. This should create an effective +9 enhancement with Furious being added in. That means that the boost from Courageous goes up by 1 to a +4 (no net loss in saves, for that matter). All other facets of said Barbarian would also receive a moderate boost.
Are all the enemies in Beastmass Outsiders? If so, I'll probably replace that Guardian ability with Outsider-Bane. This should create an effective +9 enhancement with Furious being added in. That means that the boost from Courageous goes up by 1 to a +4 (no net loss in saves, for that matter). All other facets of said Barbarian would also receive a moderate boost.
Not all the enemies are outsiders.
Shoggoth: ooze
Balor: chaotic, evil outsider
Pit Fiend: lawful, evil outsider
Tarn Linnorm: dragon
Ancient Gold Dragon: dragon
Solar Angel: good outsider
Tarrasque: magical beast
A bane weapon would allow some minor extra damage and to hit and increase your enhancement bonus to +6 if using a +4 weapon to allow you to bypass epic DR
Are all the enemies in Beastmass Outsiders? If so, I'll probably replace that Guardian ability with Outsider-Bane. This should create an effective +9 enhancement with Furious being added in. That means that the boost from Courageous goes up by 1 to a +4 (no net loss in saves, for that matter). All other facets of said Barbarian would also receive a moderate boost.Not all the enemies are outsiders.
Shoggoth: ooze
Balor: chaotic, evil outsider
Pit Fiend: lawful, evil outsider
Tarn Linnorm: dragon
Ancient Gold Dragon: dragon
Solar Angel: good outsider
Tarrasque: magical beast
This
And also dosent he get free rage cyceling at level 17 so he can save a rage power and two Ioun stones.
Most people seem to consider the Pit Fiend and the Solar as the number 1 enemy, so perhaps it might be worth it anyway. Actually, I could just buy a bunch of Bane Baldrics for 5 rounds of Auto-Bane against anything I'm fighting. Assuming these fights don't progress more than 5 rounds, that's 7 Bane Baldrics for 70,000 gp.
I could reduce this by making the weapon Outsider Bane and then getting a Bane Baldric for the other 4 monsters, but I'm not sure how much that really saves me on costs, if at all. And when it comes down to it, I doubt these matches will last more than 2-3 rounds, let alone 5.
The real issue it seems, will be saving up enough HP to ignore the Solar's no save Power Words. This Barbarian isn't particularly careful, afterall.
Are all the enemies in Beastmass Outsiders? If so, I'll probably replace that Guardian ability with Outsider-Bane. This should create an effective +9 enhancement with Furious being added in. That means that the boost from Courageous goes up by 1 to a +4 (no net loss in saves, for that matter). All other facets of said Barbarian would also receive a moderate boost.Not all the enemies are outsiders.
Shoggoth: ooze
Balor: chaotic, evil outsider
Pit Fiend: lawful, evil outsider
Tarn Linnorm: dragon
Ancient Gold Dragon: dragon
Solar Angel: good outsider
Tarrasque: magical beast
This
And also dosent he get free rage cyceling at level 17 so he can save a rage power and two Ioun stones.
Barbarians get tireless Rage, which means that their rage no longer fatigues them. However, it does not make them immune to fatigue, and they still cannot rage while fatigued. Considering the fact that some of these guys are spellcasters, it's probably best to have a real immunity. That way you don't get taken out by Waves of Exhaustion (that the Solar actually has prepared).
Good point.
depending on your Barbs initiative, things could get messy if the Solar goes first detects the barbarian and then plane shifts to buff itself and return.
if the barb wins initiative, after the surprise round, the solar shouldn't be much of an issue.
It's the regeneration that the solar has that may be an issue or a minor inconvenience.
The outsider bane is problematic because you need to Pick a subtype. The bane baldrics May be better.
Forgot about the subtype stuff. Baldrics seem like the way to go.
Barb's initiative is crap with 0 investment. I thought about using the Superstitious archetype, but I just couldn't fathom losing my precious DR. Plus, I didn't have enough room for Improved Initiative.
That said, I could perhaps get a luck stone for a +1 (+2 w/ FF) bonus on ability checks. Better yet, a Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone can grant me a +1 morale bonus to ability checks, which Courageous would then affect...that gets me at least a +11 initiative with Savage Intuition, which should actually be enough to beat most of these opponents.
Huh. Isn't it weird how the Barbarian seems to make better uses out of flawed Ioun Stones than regular ones? Then again, is there a limit to the amount of Ioun stones one can have?
Forgot about the subtype stuff. Baldrics seem like the way to go.
Barb's initiative is crap with 0 investment. I thought about using the Superstitious archetype, but I just couldn't fathom losing my precious DR. Plus, I didn't have enough room for Improved Initiative.
That said, I could perhaps get a luck stone for a +1 (+2 w/ FF) bonus on ability checks. Better yet, a Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone can grant me a +1 morale bonus to ability checks, which Courageous would then affect...that gets me at least a +11 initiative with Savage Intuition, which should actually be enough to beat most of these opponents.
Huh. Isn't it weird how the Barbarian seems to make better uses out of flawed Ioun Stones than regular ones? Then again, is there a limit to the amount of Ioun stones one can have?
Not as far as I know. I saw in a published story somewhere, someone had 20 of them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Back in 3.5 Larloch had over 40 ioun stones floating around his damn head. How he saw anything through that mess was anyone's guess.
The highest initiative on that list seems to be a +13. With the +11 I already had, I can add a +1 competence bonus from a non-flawed and perfect Pale Green Prism, but that only brings me up to +12; I lose initiative against the Pit Fiend. That said, I kinda wonder if it's possible to use the Dueling enchantment on a +10 weapon. Well, a +9 weapon, but w/e. Since it just adds a static cost, it should be doable, right? If so, then I should definitely be able to win initiative in all matches.
With Rage, Haste, Bane, and Reckless Abandon active on my effective +9 enhancement weapon (Furious Courageous Bane), my attack bonus should look something like this:
+50/+50/+45/+40/+35/+30
My lowest attack hits the Pit Fiend on an 8 or higher. And he's got the highest AC. That said, I haven't even worked out what my AC is, but I can tell it's going to be terribly low. Since my Barbarian definitely has the Fort save to make it work, I'm going to try incorporating the Rage Power "Flesh Wound" to half the damage I take and turn it into nonlethal (which will then go against my DR 20/- nonlethal).
I'm probably going to switch out my Half Orc race (since I conveniently ignored all of the Orc related Barbarian feats anyway) and go for a straight Human. With a Stone of Good Luck, my saving throws won't even change due to the loss.
Flesh Wound + Invulnerable Rager + absurd Superstitious Raging Fort saves = grossly reduced damage from any and all opponents. Ancient Gold Dragon deals a maximum of 45 damage per swing (4d6 + 21) which is an auto success for Flesh Wound, reducing it's damage to a measly 2 (nonlethal at that).
It only works once per rage cycle though (i.e. once per round), so I can't use it for every attack, unfortunately. I can definitely make it work for eliminating the downsides of Come and Get Me though, since those attacks all happen on my turn.
Honestly, the more I look into this, the more impressed I am with the Barbarian class as a whole.
Invulnerable Barbarian (max 10)
Stalwart & Improved Stalwart (max 10, stacks)
Dragon Totem Resilience (max 6, stacks)
Increased DR RP (max 3, Stacks)
Requires 5 fairly lame rage powers just for the Dragon Totems, 3 more for Increased DR. Barely enough afterwards for Superstition and Come and Get me, plus massive expenditure of feats for Improved Stalwart. In the end, it just wasn't worth it. Barbarian today has too many great things going for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Swashy McGee
Swashbuckler 7/Noble Scion 10/Doesn'tmatter 3
Specced entirely for initiative. All the feats and traits to boost it, Scion of War and high Cha at the expense of all other stats.
Has Wizzy, a Diviner Wizard 20 Cohort via Noble Scion. Both of them have the Lookout teamwork feat in case of a surprise round.
Swashy uses a Cape of Feinting that Wizzy crafted for him to daze the enemy. Wizzy can deal with any sort of environmental troubles that would impede Swashy's feinting. Time stop->D-Door Swashy into melee range, give him flight, etc. Once it is denied taking any actions until Swashy's next turn, Wizzy shouldn't have trouble dealing with it, even if he has to turn into/summon something that can claw/bite it to death.
Once they win, Swashy rolls a Knowledge Nobility check (ensuring a 20 with his Peerless Patrician ability) that, yes, he is the best nobleman ever.
I know I'm supposed to make a full character sheet, but I'm sure there's some reason an unavoidable dazelock + 20th level Wizard doesn't insta-win.
while it is nice your melee is high, what is your plan for actually getting next to most of them. They can beat you with spells
The plan is to Pounce with my 60 ft fly speed (90 ft w/ Boots of Haste). Thats 120 -180 ft of movement I can cover while still getting in my Full Attacks. Abjurations to keep me away can likely be Spell Sundered into oblivion.
I'll probably have to wield a Reach weapon to make the most use of Come and Get Me though, since most of them are large.
If you have any ideas on what spells I'll have to watch out for, by all means, please point them out. I enjoy trying to find what answers a Barbarian may have to an unoptimized caster.
while it is nice your melee is high, what is your plan for actually getting next to most of them. They can beat you with spellsThe plan is to Pounce with my 60 ft fly speed (90 ft w/ Boots of Haste). Thats 120 -180 ft of movement I can cover while still getting in my Full Attacks. Abjurations to keep me away can likely be Spell Sundered into oblivion.
I'll probably have to wield a Reach weapon to make the most use of Come and Get Me though, since most of them are large.
If you have any ideas on what spells I'll have to watch out for, by all means, please point them out. I enjoy trying to find what answers a Barbarian may have to an unoptimized caster.
The Balor fight might prove rather difficult for you if the SLA - Summon Monster is a standard action.
If it is a standard action - It may summon the Demon, Vrolikai. It is a nasty piece of work. IF your AC is terrible, it could do some serious damage. Not HP wise, but negative level wise.
Balor gets a surprise round - Summons the Demon, Vrolikai.
Demon, Vrolikai - With its full attack regiment - quickened enervate (avg 2 negative levels) - 7 attacks (7 negative levels, one attack will be a crit - negated unless helm of the jingasa has been used already)
Regular turn comes up: Barbarian has 9 negative levels in this scenario, all level dependent effects are reduced by 9 levels, making him almost effectively level 11. Does he destroy the Demon, Vrolikai or go after the Demon, Balor?
This is just one possible scenario that the Balor could do.
Swashy McGee
Swashbuckler 7/Noble Scion 10/Doesn'tmatter 3
Specced entirely for initiative. All the feats and traits to boost it, Scion of War and high Cha at the expense of all other stats.
Has Wizzy, a Diviner Wizard 20 Cohort via Noble Scion. Both of them have the Lookout teamwork feat in case of a surprise round.
Swashy uses a Cape of Feinting that Wizzy crafted for him to daze the enemy. Wizzy can deal with any sort of environmental troubles that would impede Swashy's feinting. Time stop->D-Door Swashy into melee range, give him flight, etc. Once it is denied taking any actions until Swashy's next turn, Wizzy shouldn't have trouble dealing with it, even if he has to turn into/summon something that can claw/bite it to death.
Once they win, Swashy rolls a Knowledge Nobility check (ensuring a 20 with his Peerless Patrician ability) that, yes, he is the best nobleman ever.
I know I'm supposed to make a full character sheet, but I'm sure there's some reason an unavoidable dazelock + 20th level Wizard doesn't insta-win.
We already know that a level 20 diviner Can do it. So this one Does it via proxy. I also Think that picking someone up and taking them along in DD May be problematic in a time stop.
Could he carry swashy in a portable hole or bag of holding before time stop, then ready an action to pull swashy out once time stop is about to end?
Negative levels given through attacks have a DC 27 Fort save that my Barbarian more than automatically makes. Theoretically even the possible crit can be effectively ignored, since effects that only happen on a "hit" can be negated if said hit deals no damage. In other words, Flesh wound should allow me negate any critical he throws out with (1d6 + 11)x2 damage, and along with it, negate the negative level.
Enervation on the other hand is definitely an issue, as it gives no save. There are multiple ways to deal with it, but each will require me giving up something I don't want to give up.
For 2 feats, I could pick up a shield and use Missile Shield and Ray Shield, which should all but protect me from Enervation, so long as he does not quicken it (can only negate 1 ray per round).
Perhaps a better idea though, would be to use the Ghost Rager Power, which should transfer my rather heavy Superstitious bonus to my Touch AC.
10 + 5 (Dex) + 17 (+9 Courageous weapon = +4 bonus to morale, +13 for Human Superstitious) = 32 Touch AC. Throw in a Ring of Deflection (though I really wanted that Ring of Regeneration) and the aforementioned Jingassa (w/ Fate's Favored) plus Haste, and we have a Touch AC of 40. 41 with a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone.
As far as I can tell, the Vrolikai only has a +25 to hit with Enervation, so a +40 Touch AC should suffice 70% of the time. Of course if I really wanted to cheese I could just use a Rod of Absorption like everyone else...>.>
With Ghost Rager, I'll probably have to give up Strength Surge, since I should be capable of Spell Sundering most spells without it's help. If I really need to, I guess I could give up Reckless Abandon for something as well. Perhaps Rolling Dodge? I only say this because I noticed that I didn't include the Flawed/Perfect Pale Green Prism bonus to my attack score.
This is from the special ability section of the corebook and the srd:
"A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
This can be taken a few ways:
1) You make the save against the negative levels at the start of the new day.
2) You make the save when it happens
3) You make the save on your turn
IF the save fails, then the temporary negative level, becomes permanent (this was taken out of Pathfinder from what I can see). Otherwise you keep making the save at the start of each new day to remove a negative level.
Whether or not the wording means for a single negative level per save or the total accumulated negative levels is up to you I suppose.
----------------
If you go with the rod of absorption, remember it has to be in hand if you want it to negate targeted spells at you.
Weapon cords have been used in the past with it, but have since been nerfed a little bit by moving weapon cords from a swift action to a move action.
So that is doable.
Well, it says "new" saving throw, and it mentions that the DC is the same as the effect's DC. That suggests that the original effect can be saved against when it happens, does it not?
The wording on said creature's ability is: "A vrolikai can manifest daggers made of crystallized black flames in each of its four hands as a free action. These weapons function as +1 daggers that bestow one permanent negative level on a successful hit. A DC 27 Fortitude negates the negative level, although on a critical hit, no save is allowed. The save DC is Charisma-based."
Do you mean to say that no saves are allowed until the following day? I find that somewhat hard to believe.
Actually, now that I think about it, negative levels from Enervation disappear after a number of hours equivalent to your caster level (max 15 hours). Does that mean that Enervation counts as an "ongoing spell effect?" If so, I can Sunder it with Spell Sunder...not that I think anyone will allow that.
Well, it says "new" saving throw, and it mentions that the DC is the same as the effect's DC. That suggests that the original effect can be saved against when it happens, does it not?
The wording on said creature's ability is: "A vrolikai can manifest daggers made of crystallized black flames in each of its four hands as a free action. These weapons function as +1 daggers that bestow one permanent negative level on a successful hit. A DC 27 Fortitude negates the negative level, although on a critical hit, no save is allowed. The save DC is Charisma-based."
Do you mean to say that no saves are allowed until the following day? I find that somewhat hard to believe.
Some bad news, I did a little more digging on energy drain.
Unless the monster or effect description SPECIFICALLY SAYS you get an initial saving throw... you don't get an initial saving throw.
Effects that grant initial saving throws against an energy drain effect are pretty rare. I actually can't think of any that are in the rules right now, in fact.
A vrolikai can manifest daggers made of crystallized black flames in each of its four hands as a free action. These weapons function as +1 daggers that bestow one permanent negative level on a successful hit. A DC 27 Fortitude negates the negative level, although on a critical hit, no save is allowed. The save DC is Charisma-based.
The Demon's ability does not specifically say that the target gets an initial saving throw. So that's 1 to 7 negative levels if the attacks hit.
Well, that's unfortunate. I'll have to go for Renewed life then. Even without Rage I should still be capable of making a DC 27 saving throw automatically, I think (+28 Fort rageless after a quick calculation in my head I think). At which point I can negate the negative levels immediately without too much hassle, and ignore the Vrollikai completely.
Well, assuming it works the way I think it does, anyway. Haven't had that much experience with negative levels, to be honest. It almost seems like if a horde of Vrolikai get the drop on you then you die with no possibility of a save, unless you're immune to negative energy.
Maybe I should scrap my Barbarian and go for a Martial Artist Monk instead? Immunity to a host of stuff is never bad afterall. Kinda boring though. Plus, no real way to attack opponents in the air.
Well... perhaps maybe with Shuriken... hmm...
EDIT: Ack, Renewed Life only works once per day, not once per rage. Plus it has 2 more prerequisites and I really don't want to give up anything else. Looks like there goes the Barbarian. Can't face tank everything I suppose. Especially if you don't get a save till 24 hours later. Plus, I don't really much care to optimize his AC at this point.
I guess we'll just be stuck with the same boring High-AC, rod of Abosrption guys for this challenge.
Well, that's unfortunate. I'll have to go for Renewed life then. Even without Rage I should still be capable of making a DC 27 saving throw automatically, I think (+28 Fort rageless after a quick calculation in my head I think). At which point I can negate the negative levels immediately without too much hassle, and ignore the Vrollikai completely.
Well, assuming it works the way I think it does, anyway. Haven't had that much experience with negative levels, to be honest. It almost seems like if a horde of Vrolikai get the drop on you then you die with no possibility of a save, unless you're immune to negative energy.
Maybe I should scrap my Barbarian and go for a Martial Artist Monk instead? Immunity to a host of stuff is never bad afterall. Kinda boring though. Plus, no real way to attack opponents in the air.
Well... perhaps maybe with Shuriken... hmm...
EDIT: Ack, Renewed Life only works once per day, not once per rage. Plus it has 2 more prerequisites and I really don't want to give up anything else. Looks like there goes the Barbarian. Can't face tank everything I suppose. Especially if you don't get a save till 24 hours later. Plus, I don't really much care to optimize his AC at this point.
I guess we'll just be stuck with the same boring High-AC, rod of Abosrption guys for this challenge.
Your build can still be viable, you just need a way to negate the surprise round from the Balor or it can get some serious hurt in.
[edit]
Look into the quick block buckler and maybe a ring of continuation and a scroll of foresight if you can spare the skill points on Use Magic Device. The scroll itself will grant you 170 minutes of protection, the ring lets you have the buff for 24 hours though.
What's the point of being a Barbarian if I have to rely on casting spells?
It might be more mechanically favorable to be a scroll monkey, but I really wanted to make the idea of a level 20 facetanking Barbarian work.
Renewed Life is even worse than I thought, since it only allows you to ignore temporary negative levels and only up to a maximum of 7, whereas the Vrolikai can inflict any number of permanent negative levels that you can't even save from until the next day.
I guess perhaps this is just another cog in the martial-caster dispute. Even if you could build a martial who could cover most things, there's always something you can't prepare for.
EDIT: While we're on the subject though, Id rather get a scroll of Deathward. Automatic immunity to negative energy effects, just for starters.
What's the point of being a Barbarian if I have to rely on casting spells?
It might be more mechanically favorable to be a scroll monkey, but I really wanted to make the idea of a level 20 facetanking Barbarian work.
Renewed Life is even worse than I thought, since it only allows you to ignore temporary negative levels and only up to a maximum of 7, whereas the Vrolikai can inflict any number of permanent negative levels that you can't even save from until the next day.
I guess perhaps this is just another cog in the martial-caster dispute. Even if you could build a martial who could cover most things, there's always something you can't prepare for.
EDIT: While we're on the subject though, Id rather get a scroll of Deathward. Automatic immunity to negative energy effects, just for starters.
i dont think the summon Spell like is a standart action. It claims to mimic a Spell with one round casting time.
i dont think the summon Spell like is a standart action. It claims to mimic a Spell with one round casting time.
There was a debate about that last year because of multiple wordings that were not updated.
on one hand from the combat actions section:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
on the other hand from the Magic/Spells section:
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
[edit]
then from the universal monster rules:
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
bolded for emphasis.
Dhampir's are immune to the effects of negative levels because of their racial ability:
But can still be killed by having enough negative levels accumulated. Though with ignoring the effects of the negative levels it would be a lot easier to deal with them with the one resting period allowed in the challenge.
------------------
As for the Balor's summon, for the harder fight - rule it as a standard action. For the easier fight - rule it as a 1 round action as per the summon monster spell.
A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require material components costing more than 1 gp unless those components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are awarded for defeating summoned monsters.
Someone made a good point about mythic rules technically being viable for the original.
With all the new material that's out, we really need a new gauntlet with updated critters/rules to clear up some of the things we've all seen come up that create issues (Wish, cohorts, templates, etc).
Is there any interest in having a new challenge, or for thought experiment are people happy with the one we have?
I just realized that Darkskulls are a slotless item that give you a permanent unhallow effect centered on you at all times. And unhallow apparently allows you to tie other spell effects to it, out of a small list. And it would seem, interestingly enough, that Death Ward is on that list.
So for 60,000 gp, I'm basically immune to the whole school of Necromancy, and for that matter, immune to anything that the Vrolikai can throw at me.
Well, this is almost turning into more of a test of item and system mastery than it is a test of character, but I'll take it.
My Superstitious Barbarian walks around with a decapitated skull of pure black, believing it will protect him from death. Despite this, he calls himself, "The Deathbringer" and is in worship of Pharasma, the Lady of Death. Indeed it was she who granted him the skull (after a modest investment of 60,000 gp; woman's gotta eat, you know) and it was she who blessed him with her powers. Not to destroy, but to equalize all beings in Death.
Basically, my Barbarian is now Thanos.
I have been working on an updated beasts that includes creatures from the other bestiaries, I'll provide a link later tonight.