Android Paladin.
How would it even work? How could an emotionless thing be an instrument of love and righteousness? What possible explanation could there be for such a thing ever existing?
Law and order, an instument to show the world the right path.
A paladin is an instument of their gods will, not necessarily an instument of love.
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Yeah, for example look at some of the inevitables, the are almost all at least partially clockwork in design, recycled from old lawful souls, and put to task keeping things right in the universe. I don't see why the forces of good couldn't do that just as easily.
Plus nobody said androids have to be emotionless.
Over the years I have found that people can pretty much twist/ignore the rules to support any character idea they can come up with. At least as far as justifying it in their own minds, no matter how demented it is.
For example: the girl at the local game store who thinks it's totally awesome that her DM lets her cast the Mel Gibson spell. Where her group can summon Mel Gibson as any character from one of is movies, to help the party once per day.
Nevermind the seven levels of wrong this invokes or the fact that part of me died inside when I heard it. But you know how it is. There are those that will scream there is no wrong-bad fun no matter how moronic the concept is.
Now to play devils advocate...
Paladins have to be LG, and one step from their deities alignment.
So take a LN diety like the leader of the Modrons from planescape(his name escapes me)
Add one Android, as in Data from Star Trek, who wants to be human.
add on a LG alignment and the idea that being LG is what could make him human.
You could spin him as a paladin this way perhaps.
Alignment is a real thing in PF (unlike in reality). There are evil places, objects, spells...
RPG evil does not mean real world evil. Same with law, chaos, neutrality and good.
Well, that is a question that has plagued the field of psychology for a long time: Do people have free will? Are we just products of our raising and/or biology?
On the RP side: nothing says that your android has to act like an android. Have it ham it up on the whole 'champion of love and righteousness' thing. Make it into the animatronic on a superhero themed amusement park ride. The fun would be the inconsistencies of a poorly programmed personality routine. "Don't worry little [insert name here], I'll save you from the well!" If it acts lawful and good, would it that different? Would anyone even notice? If it gets its divine power from a LN deity, could anyone tell the difference?
And whether the order of paladins lets it in or not... well, would they even realize it is an android? I assume you are talking about the androids entry in the bestiary. So, ignoring behavioral differences, the only signs that it might not be human from the fluff would be the fact that it has clear red blood and the tattoos that glow when it uses the nanite surge. Paladins are not really known for their knowledge(arcana) ranks most of the time. With all the weird races and magics running around, I would personally not jump to android unless they are from Numeria. So they might not really realize the problem.
Why do you think an Android cant be a Paladin? Is there somewhere in the rules that require you to have emotions in order to believe in Law or Good or to fight for those beliefs?
Why do you think an Android cant be a Paladin? Is there somewhere in the rules that require you to have emotions in order to believe in Law or Good or to fight for those beliefs?
Well it's kinda hard to have something that is based entirely on emotion and nothing else without emotions.
I honestly think a Paladin makes a lot of sense fro an Android, Programed to fight for the people, to uphold the law, to do what is right even if it is inconvenient or my cause your own death. I would think an Android could do this best of any race, they would be very unlikely to faultier or break their code. They would be uncompromising in the face of evil and not be tempted to give in or do wrong. I think it makes perfect sense.
Why do you think an Android cant be a Paladin? Is there somewhere in the rules that require you to have emotions in order to believe in Law or Good or to fight for those beliefs?
It's not that I don't believe it can be done (there's absolutely nothing in the rules preventing it), it's that I can't imagine it rationally.
And yes, I personally believe you need emotions in order to passionately believe in something so fervently that you become a symbol to goodly people everywhere.
I honestly think a Paladin makes a lot of sense fro an Android, Programed to fight for the people, to uphold the law, to do what is right even if it is inconvenient or my cause your own death. I would think an Android could do this best of any race, they would be very unlikely to faultier or break their code. They would be uncompromising in the face of evil and not be tempted to give in or do wrong. I think it makes perfect sense.
Except the android hasn't earned the title of paladin, he's just been programmed with whatever electronic routines its designer desired--that's hardly a self-imposed vow or ordained holy quest. At best, it can mimic (but not truly believe in) its creators beliefs.
I would argue that a PC Android has a sense of personal awareness that allows them to make choices beyond their basic programing. If an Android is programed to fight for the people and for what is right and and good and has a full awareness of the Gods in the world, it would make sense they would strive to join the Paladin order to fulfill their purpose in life. An NPC Android would be less self aware and more than likely just follow their programing but a PC Android would be self aware and have an understanding that others do not. that is just my opinion.
Surely for a god like Torag the idea of a crafted paladin who couldn't stray from the paths of law and good by it's very making would be considered a great thing and definatly worthy of having paladinhood bestowed upon it.
As far as I know, all androids are sentient/self aware. They have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores after all, the latter two being necessary for qualifying as a creature with the former for sentience.
It's the lack of emotions that get me.
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future.
Quoted description of the Paladin, I personally dont see how you need emotions to fit this description. I feel having no emotions would make it easier to fulfill this role.
How can you be noble, or embody anything if you can't feel? It's like asking a man blind from birth to describe the sky based on what he's seen. He can't. He's never seen it. At best, he can repeat back to you descriptions that he's heard.
I just dont see it that way but I guess I would have to agree to disagree.
Plus, if we look at the android as some type of construct, well... several golems are described as having a chance of going berserk and gaining the "Spark of Consciousness" as the listing for flesh golems puts it. At the very least, you could say that a malfunctioning android could stumble into a mind 'worthy' of being a paladin. Not realistic in the sense as far as computer science and psychological studies are concerned, but remember: magic does strange things. It can make a rock sentient as the next guy. And no highly advanced civilization capable of making androids would ignore magic when it is a fundamental force of the multiverse in the setting. Something can happen. And if you say that that would remove the 'lack of emotions' racial trait...well, that actually might end up balancing it a bit more with other races RP-wise. So meh.
Ah, how about we move a bit into more build concerns. I realized something: the paladin's "Aura of Courage" ability does not seem like it would be good, not only from a flavor perspective, but a mechanical one as well since I think androids are immune to fear anyway. Are the Holy Tactician or Divine hunter archetypes any good? They both trade in the aura of courage, and kind of fit an android paladin. Divine Hunter uses ranged weapons, which fits well with their stats. A paladin of Abadar? That might work out great, since a LN god like him might take kindly to a constructed creature. Holy Tactician would be good with the fast thinking digital mind to guide allies to victory.
That depends; do paladins dream of electric sheep?
In all seriousness though, if you can conceptualize androids - purely synthetic humans, then you're already willing to accept a bit of fantasy, yes? Let's stretch a little farther then and let the android have free will and form emotional bonds. Case closed.
Want an example? R2D2. The little guy is a bucket of bolts who routinely disobeys direct orders in order to do what he feels is "right" in the current situation. You could argue that his responses are just programming or a self-defense mechanism, but I choose not.
So back to your paladin. Fantasy is rife with machines looking for that spark of what it is to be human. Someone mentioned Data from Star Trek. I think there's a famous near-paladin you're all forgetting. The Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz. Or how about Edward Scisorhands? These are all constructed humans who just wanted to emotionally connect with humanity. Or even Frankenstein's Monster from the original Shelly. Heck, even Pinoccio is a wood golem who has to earn a conscience.
How to do it? Downloaded memory from a real person; super-sensitive creator; an errant bolt of lightning during creation (Johnny Five is alive!) Remember, love comes in many forms. Courtly love for example is worshipping the object of your desire from afar, sometimes not even revealing that love outwardly. Kind of sounds like a paladin of Iomedae in Cheliax doesn't it?
I don't think paladin is a stretch for an android. I think the bigger challenge is trying to control the PLAYER who wants the experience of an android paladin simply because of the maechanical benefits the race offers, rather than the pathos it evokes.
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Why do you think an Android cant be a Paladin? Is there somewhere in the rules that require you to have emotions in order to believe in Law or Good or to fight for those beliefs?Well it's kinda hard to have something that is based entirely on emotion and nothing else without emotions.
One can have very logical and compelling motivations to live a moral life or follow an ethical code, and not be motivated to 'be good' or 'act lawful' from sentimentality or nonrational drives.
Cooperation, compassion and charity are successful survival strategies, after all, even in our world. And that's not even getting into the many people who perform good deeds because they want to earn the carrot of a nice afterlife or avoid the stick of a bad one (or are more concerned with accumulating the right kind of karma and avoiding the wrong kind, or are just overly concerned with their image, or their self-image, and do good things to make themselves look better, or to feel better about themselves).
In a world where powerful gods of good (and law) demonstrably exist and, through their clergy, affect the world around them, it's *even more* the case that following codes of law and principles of good can be a perfectly sensible and coldly rational path, as it is actually rewarded by candy (a pleasant afterlife) at the end, and, in the case of the cleric or paladin, by candy *immediately* in your hand, in the form of some pretty sexy class abilities.
Countries dominated by goodly faiths, such as Andoran, *tend* to be nicer places to live than, for instance, Nidal or Geb (dominated by evil faiths), giving yet one more practical and logical and rational reason to eschew evil and embrace good.
Better life now. Cool powers. A sparkly afterlife.
The only real question is why the hell anyone would choose to be evil, and live a terrible life, get generally weaker powers, and then go to a horrible afterlife. From a cost-benefits standpoint, good is the only logical choice.
Any android capable of working this logic out should absolutely choose to be good (and lawful). A scary detached meticulous sort of lawful good, perhaps, that has not a jot of sentiment or empathy, but lawful good nonetheless.
Alignment isn't about feelings in this game, anyway. They are about actions, and some actions are explicitly good (casting summon monster III to call up a lantern archon) and others are explicitly evil (casting animate dead), *regardless of how (or if) you feel.*
Any android capable of working this logic out should absolutely choose to be good (and lawful). A scary detached meticulous sort of lawful good, perhaps, that has not a jot of sentiment or empathy, but lawful good nonetheless.
Allow me to quote the ineffible Robocop: "Madam. You have suffered an emotional shock. A rape crisis center HAS been notified."
Ok, so he was a cyborg, but they can be cold and emotionless too!
Here's another example: The Terminator. When he came back in the later movies to SAVE John Connor instead of destroying him, he was an emotionless thing that just happened to be programmed with the ability to save all of humanity. Lawful Neutral perhaps?
Actually, I am not too familiar with how androids are treated by Paizo. I got a bit about Numeria and such from the wiki, but not much about how they tend to act besides one mention about a group using some to maintain power. So it does not detail how far they are controlled by their programming. Would this paladin just be programmed to a generic white knight mask or would it choose to be a paladin out of a judgment call from their observations.
Lawful would be easy for an android to choose, but I could see an android choosing good, specifically, since it just works better. While they might lack an innate sense of empathy for the human condition, an android would have to learn how to interact with humans positively. Ripping the head off of a purse snatcher tends to bring out the torches and pitchforks, even if you were in the right. The funny thing is that good tends to be defined, in both game and real life, as that which is conducive to human life in general. Developing a strict code of morality would be best for an android wanting to live without causing to much conflict with society at large. Allowing a sense of good for the individual to mesh into just an extension of lawful behavior for coexisting with human society could be a natural progression for an artificial person.
EDIT: Darn. If the gun archetype for paladins was not a terrible, I would totally want to play Robocop. Well, maybe a multiclass with gunslinger might be called for. It would work well with the +2 dex. Unfortunately, it might get a bit MAD, especially since the one mental score the race has a modifier on is the only one not necessary. Well, you could use it as a dump stat without any worries though. It seems like it might work well with the Divine Hunter Archetype.
Propaganda!!! Who the hell said android are emotionless !!!
Watch: iRobot!!
P.S. Our GM would never allow androids in a fantasy pathfinder settings anyway! And for sure none of us would ever summon Mel Gibson!! Even trying would result in instance death!! For using bad magic ;)
Android Gunslinger(Mysterious Stranger) & Paladin(Divine Hunter).
On-Topic: They can still have honour but they will act based on the code almost exclusively. If their code is to slay all evil that seeks to destroy and defend the innocent (which say the deity says only children under the age of 13 are innocent). He would immediately jump in to save a child from falling off a park bench but might not help a Middle Aged Cobbler stuck inn a burning building. Just like he will slay the NE Druid who seeks to destroy all Humanoid Creations, but might let the NE Mayor of the Village live because he is nice to children.
Propaganda!!! Who the hell said android are emotionless !!!
Watch: iRobot!!P.S. Our GM would never allow androids in a fantasy pathfinder settings anyway! And for sure none of us would ever summon Mel Gibson!! Even trying would result in instance death!! For using bad magic ;)
Bestiary entry on androids says that they lack emotions. It goes to the point to say it twice. They went to the effort to use that trait twice when you make a character with them. Though, a second look and the exact wording might just mean that their emotions might not be the same kind more 'human' races feel.
Not sure if I'd want to use mysterious stranger with an android. I am already having reservations about having them as paladins due to the penalty in CHA. Thinking about other classes, the second look at androids also brings up another excellent question, since I see a mechanical exploit you can argue against: Can an android barbarian use rage? On one hand, the whole 'lack of emotions' thing would say that they could not feel enough bloodrage to do it, but on the other hand, I can totally see one going into 'attack mode' and ignoring its limitations and getting extremely focused on battle much like a raging barbarian.
PS: Breiti, you could argue with your GM to allow you to use them, since they exist in the general pathfinder setting as 'relics of an advanced civilization that crashed into Numeria.' You could get them treated in the same fashion as warforged...only more normal looking. The real problem besides flavor would be that they are a 16 RP race, and even the most extreme of the ARG's races go to 13-15. Core races cap at 11. So...yeah.
Strangely, it isn't like that in the actual print version...
They only suffer it once.
Rage=Surge of Power which drains their energy reserves.
Fetchling 17RP
Suli 16RP
Svirfneblin 24RP
Three races above 15. all of which are balanced.
Let's stretch a little farther then and let the android have free will and form emotional bonds. Case closed.
You are no longer playing an android then, but a modified race. Their race traits specifically state that they are "emotionless"--that is without emotion.
Propaganda! Who the hell said androids are emotionless?
The game developers who made them.
They have Free Will they just don't have Normal Emotions.
At least according to what I have read.
Really an Android Barbarian doesn't fit the fluff...
They can still get the other benefits of rage, like the -2 AC, +2 Will (assuming it's not also a morale bonus), and rage powers.
So -2 AC to gain Rage Powers... So they can't gain the Morale Bonuses but they also don't suffer the penalties of Raging... Seems a Barbarian Dip wouldn't be bad...
Android barbarians can use rage, but do not get the +4 to Str and Con as those are morale bonuses, and the Constructed trait says androids can never benefit from morale bonuses.
...Which I read as them not being able to use rage. Sure they can use rage powers, but does a level 1 Android Barbarian get any benefit from rage? Technically, it would just lose 2 ac and turn off their more precise skills, making it more of a debuff. I think you'd need to houserule something like that, though it would mostly be a bother to most GMs after letting you choose the race to begin with. I'd personally just go with an 'attack mode' kind of thing. While an android barbarian might not fit the fluff, it does fit the pop culture image of "insane killer robot." The androids of the setting seem more...fragile speedsters than those.
Part of me wonders though: are they emotionless, or just so alien that they cannot understand the human mind or be understood by it? The emotionless trait makes them seem more socially awkward than emotionless. The lack of moral bonuses might also be that they don't realize that they should be inspired/demoralized by an action. It is like that cliche in comical SF movies of holding a hand out in friendship and them just staring at you, since they do not understand something that seems natural to you. This kind of goes back to the fact that good can be defined as "something that helps humans." The whole ethnocentrism thing makes a lot of RPG stuff, especially systems based off of early DnD, rife with opportunities for deconstruction.
Ah, sorry, missed that those three are over 15 rp as well. The point still stands that you are using something with a lot more RP than a core race though. And since androids are not as officially listed, a GM would have to go off of that if they wanted to include the race.
Seems it would have been better if they were Half-Constructs...
Or adding in a clause that allows them to benefit from their own Morale Bonuses. As it stands they also gain no benefit from Bards...
And for a Barbarian Dip. Look at the Urban Barbarian for them.
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The Android bestiary entry is odd in regards to emotions. It uses the word emotionless, which would imply no emotions at all, but then describes being emotionless as a "difficulty processing emotions properly", potentially implying that they have some emotions, perhaps less than humans, but some, and it's just difficult for them to process and display their emotions appropriately as humans do (and thus are very awkward about it).
Personally as a GM I would decide that 'emotionless' was a bad choice of wording, and go with the second option of emotionally awkward. Awkward with emotions leads to a far less bland character than no emotions.
It sounds to me like another way of saying they can "observe" and "contemplate" emotions, Gluttony. That's totally different from being able to actually feel them. Data, from Star Trek could observe emotions, and knew what they were, but he didn't know what they were.
I feel like this is another instance of focusing heavily on a word and reading far to much into it. There is nothing in the Android entry that states they can not cast Devin spells or worship a deity. Their Emotionless racial trait is simply a penalty to reading other people, they lack the ability to properly read others emotions. this should not hinder their ability to be a Paladin.
I have to agree that the word emotionless is a bad choice for the race and have to agree with Gluttony.
I think it adds some interesting potential, Maybe the android doesn't know WHY it acts the way it does, maybe that's part of his personal journey.
Understanding is not required for actions to take place.
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And if Data decided to become a paladin, I would not bat an eyelash.
Great yet another Character I will have to add to my future builds list.
One can have very logical and compelling motivations to live a moral life or follow an ethical code, and not be motivated to 'be good' or 'act lawful' from sentimentality or nonrational drives.
Since we're getting into wholly subjective territory here, OPINIONS AHOY:
Just because you follow a code does not mean you BELIEVE in that code. Some people don't BELIEVE that we shouldn't own slaves, but they still follow that code since it's the law and they'd suffer huge consequences if they broke that law.
Belief is not something logical, it's 100% emotion. It relies on you putting your faith in someone or something else that you can't control.
Cooperation, compassion and charity are successful survival strategies, after all, even in our world. And that's not even getting into the many people who perform good deeds because they want to earn the carrot of a nice afterlife or avoid the stick of a bad one (or are more concerned with accumulating the right kind of karma and avoiding the wrong kind, or are just overly concerned with their image, or their self-image, and do good things to make themselves look better, or to feel better about themselves).
And that means they do not BELIEVE in that religion, they're just covering their metaphysical bases. Especially with Christianity, since last I checked there was something in the Bible about how deeds will not get a man into heaven, only belief will or some such.
As for successful survival strategies, "staying alive" is something any animal does. Animals work together all the time. That doesn't mean they believe in the concept of cooperation or camaraderie, that just means they realize there is safety in numbers.
In a world where powerful gods of good (and law) demonstrably exist and, through their clergy, affect the world around them, it's *even more* the case that following codes of law and principles of good can be a perfectly sensible and coldly rational path, as it is actually rewarded by candy (a pleasant afterlife) at the end, and, in the case of the cleric or paladin, by candy *immediately* in your hand, in the form of some pretty sexy class abilities.
This ties into the rest of it. If you're doing it to get your "candy" then you don't believe in that god or code. You're doing it because it's advantageous, not because you actually believe in the code taht god has set down.
In effect, the android is metagaming...in character.
Countries dominated by goodly faiths, such as Andoran, *tend* to be nicer places to live than, for instance, Nidal or Geb (dominated by evil faiths), giving yet one more practical and logical and rational reason to eschew evil and embrace good.
And the android can realize that his life would be better and more comfortable under the rule of law and/or good, but he doesn't really believe in those concepts without emotion. He does not hold in his head the idea that those tenets are an immutable moral truth; all he sees is that this is the most effective path to take to a comfortable life.
Think about this: The land the android is living in worships Iomedae or something. He lives a good life there, following Iomedae's code and reaping the benefits of living in a stable society. Life is good.
Then, after a few centuries, the worship shifts to the worship of Sarenrae. Nothing really changes in his life except a subtle shift in the code and, of course, which deity "rules" over the country.
The android now has a choice in this scenario (roll with it): Switch to worshiping Sarenrae or continue worshiping Iomedae.
If he had belief, he would continue worshiping Iomedae. Iomedae has been good to him, he believes in her code, and life under her "rule" has been carefree and easy.
If he's working off of cold logic alone, he would switch to Sarenrae. Nothing in his everyday life changes, and it grants him an advantage over time (possible angry Sarenrae worshipers wanting to shun the strange, somewhat inhuman nonbeliever). It doesn't affect his afterlife, it doesn't affect anything in his daily life, and holds nothing but advantage(s). That's not belief.
Better life now. Cool powers. A sparkly afterlife.The only real question is why the hell anyone would choose to be evil, and live a terrible life, get generally weaker powers, and then go to a horrible afterlife. From a cost-benefits standpoint, good is the only logical choice.
Any android capable of working this logic out should absolutely choose to be good (and lawful). A scary detached meticulous sort of lawful good, perhaps, that has not a jot of sentiment or empathy, but lawful good nonetheless.
Alignment isn't about feelings in this game, anyway. They are about actions, and some actions are explicitly good (casting summon monster III to call up a lantern archon) and others are explicitly evil (casting animate dead), *regardless of how (or if) you feel.*
Look at the other side of the coin.
An android could, very logically, come up with the idea that Evil grants power, and he can use that power to create whatever life he wants.
Hell, since he's just as coldly logical as the "good" android, he could pay lip service to evil gods and do nothing at all with the evil power they grant except use his zombie slaves to till his fields and tend to his very comfortable, well lit, Fortress of Bones.
An Android who follows all the rules to the letter with no sentiment or empathy attached is Lawful Neutral. He cares not a whit for "good" or "evil" he just follows what he's "supposed to do" according to the tenets he's determined are the most effective to follow.
And I still have yet to see anything that points out to me where raising the dead is an EVIL ACT, beyond the fact that it has the "Evil" descriptor. You don't see people who cast too many Fire spells turning into a walking pillar of fire or Acid spell users collapsing into puddles, why should Evil spells make people Evil?
Faith may require emotion, although I'm sure that's debatable.
Being empowered by unspecified powers of righteousness or a god because your entirely rational code of conduct pleases them, not so much.
Faith in a god is an odd concept in a world where absolute proof of their existance is commonplace and they can directly contact and infulence the world. Pathfinder clerics don't have to believe they mostly do what they think their god wishes them to do and if they think they are in a grey area 1000gp can buy them some paladin training wheels (phylactery of faithfulness :P) to give them direct deitific approval over everything they do.
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Android Paladin.
How would it even work? How could an emotionless thing be an instrument of love and righteousness? What possible explanation could there be for such a thing ever existing?
Android = Construct/Golem. Someone could have been Magic Jar'ed (Full Metal Alchemist, anyone?) Created and imbued with the spark of the divine...
In my setting Androids, "Warforged", Fraken, and the other Half-Constructs/Constructed races all are "souls" bonded into an Artificial Body.
They are sentient and some are "emotionless" from a Human stand point.
They might believe in concepts or even follow a faith.
Think something like Acibek from Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire.
Why is it so hard to believe that an android could be l good? Could they be l evil? I once had a character named War; he was once a man but gained immortality and in the process actually assumed the persona of one of the four horsemen of the apocolypse. He systematically and logically proved over and over again that, in war, good was a failure and therefore evil was strongest. My GM allowed him to be l evil and I played him as coldly logical as I could think.
Ok, so that was off topic. We're talking androids. Their entry says they're devoid of emotions, but says nothing about alignment restriction. The "emotionless" entry in character creation only states that they suck at Sense Motive.
So then I ask you, forum community: where does it say they CAN'T be paladins? Is there something in the paladin entry that states "if emotionless then cannot be paladin" or "if PC race suffers -4 penalty to sense motive then paladin levels cannot be achieved?"
If not...then android paladin. Y'know how I figure that? Logic.
"It's not in the book that he can't." =/= "It makes sense."
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Lol, you know, this whole deal concerning emotionless got me thinking about, from a Star Trek standpoint, a Vulcan Paladin. It seems from reading through this thread that if you could envision a Vulcan as a Paladin, then so too could you have an Android Paladin. On the other hand, if it's a question of does a Paladin gain his abilities based on the purity of his "soul", then the Android as a Paladin might be a problem. Just food for thought.