If this is a stupid question (or one that has been beaten to death on other threads) please excuse my naiveté (I am sort-of new to Golarion, but PF not-so-much).
I was just going through the god section of the Inner Sea Guide (my favorite purchase at Gencon) and I was just wondering if we have been given any sort of hints as to his fate?
Another deific question, which may or may not be related: Who is/was 'the father' of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon?
If there were threads that discussed these things at length, then a simple push in the right direction would be great - thanks.
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I doubt there were ever any hints as to Aroden's fate. I refer you to the following thread:
Aroden: Truly dead or just presumed so?
Here's a noteworthy quote:
Aroden is dead.
This is official. It's a KEY part of the campaign's flavor and history, and it's not something that we're going to "reverse" or cheat out of. He's dead.
As for HOW he died... for internal consistency, we have the reasons decided on in-house so that we can be consistent in how those reasons ripple things along, so if we ever DO reveal how he died, that revelation will mesh with everything we've done. At this point, we've no plans to ever reveal how he died, though.
(Granted, it's been 3 years since that thread ended, but it seems highly unlikely that Paizo changed its stance since then.)
I'll never forget Sissyl's comment in that thread...
He really shouldn't have called Calistria "fat"...
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The father of Shelyn and Dou-Bral, who became Zon-Kuthon when he sojurned beyond the planes as we know them, was the "spirit-wolf" Thron, the "Prince that Howls." Since the end of his imprisonment in the Age of Darkness, Zon-Kuthon has tortured and mutilated his father, transforming him into his herald, the Prince in Chains. As to who their mother was... I don't think we've been given any details, except that I believe she was some kind of goddess of love, since Shelyn "inherited" that portfolio at some point during or after the Age of Darkness.
Edit: Glancing at the Wiki, it looks like Zon-Kuthon actually transformed his father immediately after he returned to Golarion, before he was banished to the Plane of Shadow. Also, Thron apparently had many mates, and I get the impression that, like him, they were relatively minor "spirits" or demigods, as were all of their chidren besides Shelyn and Dou-Bral.
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Aroden is being kept locked in a celestial basement by Iomedae (think Stephen King's 'Misery'). Her status goes way down if he makes a big comeback.
I think she had something to do with Arazni's undead downfall as well...
Aroden is Cthulhu.
Anyone ever have a response disappear on these boards? My last one did.
Anyhow, thanks for your help guys. I knew he was dead (and heartily approve of James Jacobs response - I hate 'wishy washy' lore), but was wondering if the company has dropped any clues surrounding the circumstances of his death.
I find it bit too coincidental that he switches the seat of his church to Cheliax, and then he is killed and Asmodeus arises in Cheliax. However, I like both that they have left this open-ended for gamers, and yet still have an in-house canon explanation for everything to keep the continuity straight - thats just good design right there.
Thanks again for your answers :)
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Anyone ever have a response disappear on these boards? My last one did.
Anyhow, thanks for your help guys. I knew he was dead (and heartily approve of James Jacobs response - I hate 'wishy washy' lore), but was wondering if the company has dropped any clues surrounding the circumstances of his death.
I find it bit too coincidental that he switches the seat of his church to Cheliax, and then he is killed and Asmodeus arises in Cheliax. However, I like both that they have left this open-ended for gamers, and yet still have an in-house canon explanation for everything to keep the continuity straight - thats just good design right there.
Thanks again for your answers :)
Aroden's church moved its seat to Taldor several centuries before Aroden's demise.
I believe that James Jacobs has stated that he knows how and why Aroden died, but it will never be revealed. This leaves GMs to help craft an important aspects of Aroden's demise if they wish or move on to other areas of interest to them.
Yes
I've been a closet Paizo-fan since the beginning (loved their Dragon stuff), but I've only really started delving into the setting recently.
As I learn more I've been coming out of 'lurker mode'. Now its time for me to start asking stupid questions. :)
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Yes
I've been a closet Paizo-fan since the beginning (loved their Dragon stuff), but I've only really started delving into the setting recently.
As I learn more I've been coming out of 'lurker mode'. Now its time for me to start asking stupid questions. :)
Dude, your maps were gold. Thanks for them.
Contributor
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Dude, your maps were gold. Thanks for them.Yes
I've been a closet Paizo-fan since the beginning (loved their Dragon stuff), but I've only really started delving into the setting recently.
As I learn more I've been coming out of 'lurker mode'. Now its time for me to start asking stupid questions. :)
This. I love(d) your work.
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Thanks guys, that means a LOT. I still do FR maps off & on (I was on hiatus for the longest time after 4e came out). All of my FR maps are still circa 1375 DR (3e).
I am not sure what the rules are regarding Paizo's IP, but I'd like to eventually try my hand at doing a few of those as well (with a completely different art-style then the FR maps I do, of course).
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+1 on thank you for all those beautiful maps! :)
Regarding Paizo stuff (symbols, maps, etc.), there's something called a Community Package which can be downloaded for free somewhere around here. I think that it also includes a list of dos and don'ts with regard to Paizo's IP rules.
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On the left hand side links there is one marked Community Use Policy. That has all of the dos and don'ts... you can make your own maps or art based off of the IP. And I will be the first to say that the wiki would LOVE to host and/or be able to use said images, if you are so inclined.
edit: we also surpassed 7,000 pages last week Yay
Aroden died in the most embarrassing/typical way...on the toilet...bloated and wearing tight pants. Or he drove his Ferrari Illuminati into an obelisk whilst hopped up on stardust.
Anyone ever have a response disappear on these boards? My last one did.
Anyhow, thanks for your help guys. I knew he was dead (and heartily approve of James Jacobs response - I hate 'wishy washy' lore), but was wondering if the company has dropped any clues surrounding the circumstances of his death.
I find it bit too coincidental that he switches the seat of his church to Cheliax, and then he is killed and Asmodeus arises in Cheliax. However, I like both that they have left this open-ended for gamers, and yet still have an in-house canon explanation for everything to keep the continuity straight - thats just good design right there.
Thanks again for your answers :)
Aroden's church moved its seat to Taldor several centuries before Aroden's demise.
I believe that James Jacobs has stated that he knows how and why Aroden died, but it will never be revealed. This leaves GMs to help craft an important aspects of Aroden's demise if they wish or move on to other areas of interest to them.
You've got this flipped. Aroden's church STARTED in Taldor. It moved its center of worship to Cheliax after the Even-Tongued Conquest, where it remained until the fall.
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I have a theory which has been churning in the back of my mind for some time, and that is that Aroden actually chose to die in order to give humans free will.
Think about it: the main effect of Aroden's death is that prophecies stopped working, and now the future cannot be reliably predicted, so maybe before the Age of Lost Omens humans were wholly controlled by fate, and their lives were predetermined from birth to death; Aroden, being the god of humankind, sacrificed himself knowing that his death would free humans from the shackles of prophecy and give them power over their own destinies. Or maybe he saw a prophecy that would have spelled certain doom for Golarion and he killed himself to stop it.
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I have a theory which has been churning in the back of my mind for some time, and that is that Aroden actually chose to die in order to give humans free will.
Think about it: the main effect of Aroden's death is that prophecies stopped working, and now the future cannot be reliably predicted, so maybe before the Age of Lost Omens humans were wholly controlled by fate, and their lives were predetermined from birth to death; Aroden, being the god of humankind, sacrificed himself knowing that his death would free humans from the shackles of prophecy and give them power over their own destinies. Or maybe he saw a prophecy that would have spelled certain doom for Golarion and he killed himself to stop it.
Dune, much?
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Dude, your maps were gold. Thanks for them.Yes
I've been a closet Paizo-fan since the beginning (loved their Dragon stuff), but I've only really started delving into the setting recently.
As I learn more I've been coming out of 'lurker mode'. Now its time for me to start asking stupid questions. :)
I heartily concur! And your snippets of 'homebrew' changes/ interpretations to the setting were very thought-provoking.
Thank you!
Carry on.
-- C.
I go back to my "The Starstone is a radioactive spaceship engine" theory and that Aroden just finally bit it from space radiation poisoning. Iomedae, Cayden and Norgy are all due for their painful Madame Curie deaths soon as well.
Didn't Mystara already do that one?
I go back to my "The Starstone is a radioactive spaceship engine" theory and that Aroden just finally bit it from space radiation poisoning. Iomedae, Cayden and Norgy are all due for their painful Madame Curie deaths soon as well.
I firmly believe in a theory not too different from this--that the Starstone is BAD. It was dropped on Golarion by bad aboleth guys. My thought is that it's a trap, designed by the aboleths to lure arrogant and powr hungry humans into using it to exalt into a cheap kind of godhood--but the energies are unstable and after a time anyone raised to godhood by the starstone will erupt in a planes-shredding explosion. People think the Age of Darkness was the aboleth's curse on mankind, but I find it much more delicious that the curse for human hubris is turning us into god-bombs to lay waste to the planes...perhaps even ushering in Those Who Ruled Before.
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I have a theory which has been churning in the back of my mind for some time, and that is that Aroden actually chose to die in order to give humans free will.
Think about it: the main effect of Aroden's death is that prophecies stopped working, and now the future cannot be reliably predicted, so maybe before the Age of Lost Omens humans were wholly controlled by fate, and their lives were predetermined from birth to death; Aroden, being the god of humankind, sacrificed himself knowing that his death would free humans from the shackles of prophecy and give them power over their own destinies. Or maybe he saw a prophecy that would have spelled certain doom for Golarion and he killed himself to stop it.
Better yet, someone saw said prophecy and killed him to prevent it or to cause such doom. Canidates for the killer could include Milani ( CG minor goddess of hope and revolts, formerly saint in Aroden's church, just up her MO), Iomodae, Asmodeus, Pharasma.
It specifies that Iomedae is furious at Pharasma for not predicting this (and preventing it), so I'm pretty sure she's out of the running (also being the patron of honor, and murdering your mentor just to absorb his church doesn't seem so PF-style 'honorable', even if you have the best of 'intentions' also helps exclude her).
While Milani might be a guilty, I'm not seeing it. She'd likely tell everyone, even if it meant backlash against herself... she's never been shy about those kinds of things before.
Pharasma I could see, and Asmodeus although he's rockier, as, even though he gained Chelliax, the Abyss gained the World Wound; this would mean that he was colossally stupid - unlike him -, exceedingly desperate (still unlike him, he'd be more likely to blackmail others), or idiotically prideful (totally like him)... either way, though, he'd likely have acted through a proxy rather than directly.
I'd also add Zyphus (being the god of meaningless death), Lamashtu (being a murderer of at least one god in the past, but unlikely to publically claim it because Desna's already hunting her, and if Iomedae also starts...), Groetus (being the god of the end of all things), Norgorber (being the god of murder), Nethys (being completely insane and believing the Starstone a 'cheating' way to attain divinity), any of the outer gods or great old ones, or really it could one of many other of the gods of Golarion for any number of a myriad of reasons (though the ones I called out specifically seem to be more likely candidates than Milani, Iomedae, or Pharasma, considering their tendencies, to my way of thinking).
It could also have been an accident.
As far as the radioactive spacerock - aka the "poison divinity" - idea goes, that may be true, but from what James Jacobs has said, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't part of the Aboleths' plans. From what I understand, the Aboleths just called down a super-rock from space that happened to have the Star Stone in, around, or nearby it (and thus happened to drop it into the Inner Sea) that got accidentally called by the time/space-bending power of their super-magic.
As far as the..."poison divinity" - idea goes...I'm pretty sure it wasn' part of their plans....
I haven't heard what James jacobs' has said on this...though I'd be really interested to if anyone has the quote. I guess the version I heard was that the aboleths called the Starstone but their mistake was not expecting it would wipe out their civilization along with the humans--or that the Age of Darkness producing blast was greater than anticipated (probably because it drew the attention of a certain engine of destruction trapped below the earth), not that they didn't know what the Starstone was.
It just seems like a Starstone is a pretty specific thing to get without asking for it.
If true, it makes you wonder why there was a giant floating god-making temple in Golarion's orbit for the aboleths to call it down by accident.And who put it there? Maybe it's the ancient aliens--they seed promising planets with Starstones to create gods out of sentient races? Like the obelisk in 2001: A Space Oddessy.
As far as the..."poison divinity" - idea goes...I'm pretty sure it wasn' part of their plans....I haven't heard what James jacobs' has said on this...though I'd be really interested to if anyone has the quote. I guess the version I heard was that the aboleths called the Starstone but their mistake was not expecting it would wipe out their civilization along with the humans--or that the Age of Darkness producing blast was greater than anticipated (probably because it drew the attention of a certain engine of destruction trapped below the earth), not that they didn't know what the Starstone was.
It just seems like a Starstone is a pretty specific thing to get without asking for it.
If true, it makes you wonder why there was a giant floating god-making temple in Golarion's orbit for the aboleths to call it down by accident.And who put it there? Maybe it's the ancient aliens--they seed promising planets with Starstones to create gods out of sentient races? Like the obelisk in 2001: A Space Oddessy.
That is an ever-larger part of the mystery.
Basically, from what I understand, the Aboleths just wanted to punish the arrogant humans, thus Earthfall, however... their magic didn't go exactly as they'd planned:
1) It was bigger than anticipated (interestingly, it seems like it might have had something like an... amplified effect, as it were, kind of like if the Star Stone amplifies a person...)
2) This had the inadvertent effect of wiping them all back to the stone ages, just as much as their arrogant spawn. Effectively they accidentally set of a nuclear winter without realizing they were playing with nukes (and thus no one was in the bomb shelters).
3) This had the other inadvertent effect of summoning the Star Stone, granting the humans not one, but four divinities... though one of them died. This may, in fact, have been something the aboleths or something similar worked towards in order to "reverse their mistake" or something, or perhaps a cosmic something or other looking out for them, akin to a god of aboleths...
4) Humans (though not the Azlanti) basically came out (more or less) on top in this situation, as now, although they lost everything, so did the aboleths, and the humans have a larger number of racial allies than the Aboleths, and guardian gods.
Ultimately it goes to show, "pride goeth before the fall" works on both Aboleths and the puny creatures they intended to teach that lesson to, their augmented humans (it's worth noting, that it seems that Aboleths didn't create all humans, but rather upraised the Azlanti into being an innately better kind of human... but that's just seeming, not canon, from what I know).
Creative Director
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The starstone was not a calculated part of the aboleth attack. It was, to them, a surprise. One they didn't even notice at the time, since it fell to Golarion thousands of miles outside of the part of the world they were targeting and paying the most attention to.
Thanks, James!
The starstone was not a calculated part of the aboleth attack. It was, to them, a surprise. One they didn't even notice at the time, since it fell to Golarion thousands of miles outside of the part of the world they were targeting and paying the most attention to.
Wait...what? So the aboleths not only accidentally destroyed their own civilization along with their enemies...with the Starstone, which they didn't even know what it was...but they missed their target by thousands of miles? Somewhere in all of this there had to be some freakin' ticked off aboleths.
I mean aren't there a lot of lower level spells good for punishing civilizations that actually hit their targets without wiping you out--and don't give them the tool to turn their descendants into gods?
The starstone was not a calculated part of the aboleth attack. It was, to them, a surprise. One they didn't even notice at the time, since it fell to Golarion thousands of miles outside of the part of the world they were targeting and paying the most attention to.Wait...what? So the aboleths not only accidentally destroyed their own civilization along with their enemies...with the Starstone, which they didn't even know what it was...but they missed their target by thousands of miles? Somewhere in all of this there had to be some freakin' ticked off aboleths.
I mean aren't there a lot of lower level spells good for punishing civilizations that actually hit their targets without wiping you out--and don't give them the tool to turn their descendants into gods?
It seems to me that from the Mana wastes, to the horrors around Gallowspire, to the various other areas of natural disaster-ridden territories where people tried to unleash supermagic to one end or another, one of the themes of the setting is that Civilization-Level affecting cataclysmic magic is, shall we say, imprecise.
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Creative Director
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The starstone was not a calculated part of the aboleth attack. It was, to them, a surprise. One they didn't even notice at the time, since it fell to Golarion thousands of miles outside of the part of the world they were targeting and paying the most attention to.Wait...what? So the aboleths not only accidentally destroyed their own civilization along with their enemies...with the Starstone, which they didn't even know what it was...but they missed their target by thousands of miles? Somewhere in all of this there had to be some freakin' ticked off aboleths.
I mean aren't there a lot of lower level spells good for punishing civilizations that actually hit their targets without wiping you out--and don't give them the tool to turn their descendants into gods?
Where did we say that the aboleths destroyed their own civilization? I'm pretty sure that's not the case—they destroyed Azlant with Earthfall, but that event didn't do much to destroy their own empire as far as I know...
...and as for the Starstone... one of the big flaws of the aboleths (in fact, I would call it their GREATEST flaw) is their disrespect for the divine and their inability to understand the true power of faith. The fact that they underestimated the impact (ha) that the Starstone would have thousands of years in the future is due to their inborn inability to comprehend faith.
The Starstone hit in the inner sea region. It was NEVER a target by the aboleths. It was collateral damage. The actual target of Earthfall was the continent of Azlant, thousands of miles west of where the Starstone hit.
The Starstone was one of MANY objects called down duirng Earthfall, but Earthfall itself affected Azlant, Arcadia, Avistan, and Garund.
Was this revealed prior?
Where did we say that the aboleths destroyed their own civilization? I'm pretty sure that's not the case—they destroyed Azlant with Earthfall, but that event didn't do much to destroy their own empire as far as I know...
Wait, what? Mind = blown. I was pretty sure that was one of the major elements of the "whoopsie" of Earthfall. Man, I am going to have to do serious re-researching here.
EDIT: sigh, once I get off the iPad and back to a computer I can reliably link from and not "hit" the wrong spot of the screen...
EDIT2: urg. ANYway, I otherwise love that info! Thanks again, James!
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By concidence, I was just watching an episode of Thundaar the barbarian while reading this thread and it hit me..
earth is knocked into an age of darkness by a runaway planet hurtling between the earth and the moon..man's civilization is cast in ruins. Two thousand years later, earth is reborn, a land of savagery, super science and sorcery.
So I guess that where Earthfalls inspiration came from no?
Next campaign I am going to play a Shoanti Barbarian named Thundarr and can't wait to get my brilliant energfy sword and my Mock cohort.
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I always thought Blackstar was the better show...just sayin'...
I always thought Blackstar was the better show...just sayin'...
I can honestly say I haven't seen that show, which surprised me. I just thought I might have forgotten it, or something, but after looking up the intro on youtube, I've discovered that - completely generic everything aside - I'm pretty sure I've never seen that before. I must say, I'm shocked! Shocked! It looks exactly like something I would have loved!
Bravestarr, on the other hand, is possibly one of the best (in a completely ridiculous 80s way) cartoons ever made*.
Also, to bring this back on topic (sort of), is my head-canon look for Aroden.
* Okay, okay, you got me: this isn't true. But I still loved it when I was a kid!
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Actually we don't actually know the causual relationship between Aroden's death and the breakdown of prophecy.
From the gazeteer when talking about the age of lost omens (p3 - paraphrased as this is from the wiki, emphasis mine):
On the prophesied date, instead of his return, all contact to the god was lost and the world was devastated by terrible storms, the opening of vast planar rifts, and decades-spanning political upheavals. Since then, no major prophecy has come true, a condition for which historians have named the current era.
It was then later announced by Pharasma through her clerics that Aroden had been Judged as one of the Dead.Since a 4th level spell can override her judgment, I guess this means that nobody really cared enough to bring him back.
Which 4th level spell you talking about? JJ has specifically stated that those individuals brought back successfully by raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection... et al... 'had yet to be judged'.
Or are you referring to the wonderful 'create undead' line of spells?
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Aroden was incarnate as Durkon in the Order of the Stick.
It was then later announced by Pharasma through her clerics that Aroden had been Judged as one of the Dead.Since a 4th level spell can override her judgment, I guess this means that nobody really cared enough to bring him back.Which 4th level spell you talking about? JJ has specifically stated that those individuals brought back successfully by raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection... et al... 'had yet to be judged'.
Or are you referring to the wonderful 'create undead' line of spells?
Pretty sure he's referring to Animate Dead.
Outsiders cannot be raised.It was then later announced by Pharasma through her clerics that Aroden had been Judged as one of the Dead.Since a 4th level spell can override her judgment, I guess this means that nobody really cared enough to bring him back.
But they can be animated! ... sadly.
(OotS has a good example of this.)
I think it quite likely that Aroden had more racial hit dice than Animate Dead would allow.