Quicksand Cloak

[Oceanshieldwolf]

Just looked at this again. So cool. Allows AoO's against outcoming victims. Who otherwise have drowned. It's a cool looking cloak. It's a weapon. It's fashionable in mucky places, where it's hard to be fashionable. But the best part:

If you don't hang it up properly, if you just toss it on the ground in your bedroom, it becomes a freaking trap. so, do not wear this out on the town or to parties. This is a serious piece of haute couture.

I don't see the danger from friendly pats on the back. That isn't an "attempted grapple" in my book. Overzealous drunk friends wanting to bear hug you? Gimme this thing every time. Like a super powerful, wearable drunk tank.

[RonarsCorruption]

Steven, congratulations on making it in!

I remember seeing and loving your item in voting, and I was clearly right to have. I'm not even sure I have any mechanical comments on it, it's that good.

I do like, however, that you're being very humble in here. It's been said that the best thing someone needs to know is when to admit they don't know something. Shines true here! ;)

Keep up the good work, and good luck next round!

[Jerry Keyes]

Steven, the flavor of this item really rocks, but I do have some reservations on the mechanics.

How many "victims" can the cloak hold? One, two, an army? No capacity is given.

Once someone dies, how do you get them out? The only way in is to grapple, so does someone have to grapple the wearer, get in, fish the body out, and then climb out themselves?

Can anyone assist in getting the victim out?

Lastly, try to avoid parentheses unless it really is needed. Usually there's a better way to phrase something if you find yourself resorting to them. They are, of course, appropriate for giving references, DC's, or examples.

Congrats!

[Steven Helt]

Thanks again, everyone! Jerry - the text points out that a cloak of any size can only hold one living creature. I never considered I'd need rules for getting corpses out. I guess cinematically I liked the idea of there being skeletons and old clothes trapped in the cloak forever, I didn't think about retreiving items. TO be sure, if some fighter with a +3 sword chokes his Reflex save and lands in my cloak, I'll be wanting rules for looting him!

Now I have this funny image of wringing out the cloak until water, bones and treasure fall out.

[Joana]

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

I don't see the danger from friendly pats on the back. That isn't an "attempted grapple" in my book.

Okay, so what's the difference between an "attempted grapple" and an ally trying to grab you and pull you out of danger when you're confused or fascinated or falling over a cliff or something? What's the difference between an "attempted grapple" and an ally picking up your unconscious body to beat a hasty retreat?

I don't like magic items that have the power to adjudicate intent -- Is this a friendly grapple or not? Is the guy grabbing my wearer his ally or his enemy? If it is his ally, is he charmed or dominated or otherwise mentally compromised? -- unless the item is intelligent. The barbarian's Superstitious rage power doesn't discriminate between spells from enemies and allies; you have to save against both of them. Nor does spell resistance. I could see a mechanism by which you could temporarily "turn off" the cloak, like a creature with spell resistance can consciously lower it, but it ought to take an action to do so and it ought to be at the discretion of the cloak's wearer, not because the cloak has a constant detect thoughts up on anyone who might lay hands on it.

[Richard Moore]

Good item, with reasonably strong writing and attention to detail in formatting. This is another entry that I didn't really like at first glance, but it grew on me over time as it popped up repeatedly in pairings.

If I ever use this in a game, it will definitely have the body of a former victim stuck inside it. =D

Editing nitpick: Spell out distances and measurements - say 5 feet, not 5'.

[Sam Harris]

Congratulations on making the Top 32! This is a wonderfully bizarre concept with great execution. Great imagery, great mechanics, great item. Looking forward to seeing your Round 2 submission, and best of luck!

[Jeremy Clements]

It's a great idea in concept...but I can see it being a huge headache for GMs.

1. Can I throw it at an opponent?

2. Since the quicksand can only hold 1 person, what happens if another person attempts to grapple you after that? Can the person inside attempt to grab that new grappler to get out?

3. Does the wearer get an attack of opportunity to anyone trying to help someone drowning?

4. If someone falls into it while it's on the ground, can someone just pick it up and "shake' the person trapped inside out?

5. If you destroy the cloak itself somehow, does the person inside come out or get trapped in an extradimensional space?

6. What if someoby inside is carrying a bag of holding? Can it explode/implode like a portable hole?

7. What happens if the target doesn't breathe, and gets stuck? (A zombie might continually fail its swim checks to escape) Or is of Large size?

8. If it is on the Ground with someone in it, can someone turn it over to trap someone permantly (no escape).

Some of these stupid questions could have direct or inferred answers in the write-up, or I could just be coughing up detrius, but that's a list just off the top of my head. I personally would say no to this item being in my game as a GM, good idea or not.

Sorry, I'm not try to be mean. Just being honest here.

[Chris Schweiger]

Congrats, Steven. This is a very interesting item. I do have some issues with it that you might want to consider if you do post an updated version.

First, how would getting grappled by a creature with improved grab and reach work? I'm thinking some type of tentacled creature that technically is a medium creature, but could be attempting to grapple with only a portion of their body at range, though I couldn't provide you with a specific creature as an example.

Second, how would this cloak interact with a creature that is immovable, automatically fails reflex saves, and automatically makes a free grapple attempt against anything that attacks it or moves near it? Again, I can't think of such a creature off the top of my head, but one could exist.

Third, given that the cloak can be a trap on 50 square feet of space, what stops a creature from cowering under the cloak and becoming immune to attacks? Obviously, there isn't wording that says anything about attacks, but if the cloak hides an extradimensional space on its exterior, why would a grapple suck a creature in, but an arrow or sword hitting the exterior of the cloak not get sucked in? Even not trying to hide under the cloak, but just wearing it could be seen as giving some sort of miss chance to attackers because the attack just hits the cloak and gets sucked in rather than hitting the target.

Fourth, how does the cloak interact with other extradimensional spaces?

Fifth, do creatures get the option to of whether to climb out of the cloak or not if they succeed on the swim check? If a creature has an air supply, they aren't in any danger while inside, and thus it might be more dangerous to climb out. This is only a question because the DC of the swim check to get out gets higher the more checks a creature fails. Obviously a creature could just fail swim checks to stay in, but after two or three minutes, it would become near impossible to get out.

Sixth, is there any way to know whether there is a living creature inside the cloak, as either the wearer or as an observer?

Finally, what happens if you trap a creature inside the cloak and then take it off and fold it in half? Is the creature inside trapped?

Those points describe all the major pieces of information that I feel the description lacks. There are a few other interesting, though rare, situations, like how Enlarge Person or Reduce Person interact with the cloak or how destruction of the cloak with a creature inside works.

I also want to reiterate that I think this item is very neat, but I also would not want be a GM who has to adjudicate all the problems I see with it.

[Sean H]

When I first saw this item, I loved the concept but actually voted against it because I saw it as a hard counter to any and all grapple attempts. Re-reading it now it seems as if the grapple attempt can still succeed if the attacked makes the Reflex save, and if that is the case, that should be made more clear.

My favorite part of this item though is actually the ability to make a quicksand pit - and the flexibility of being a 5x10 space, which I find more interesting than the 10x10 blocks that are all-too-common.

[Aaron Miller 335]

HI, sorry to say but I down voted this allmost eveytime, other than when it was up against a real stinker. It's not a bad idea but I just was unable to get over the fact that's not how quicksand works! Things float in quicksand just as they float in water, that's all it is. You may get stuck in it and die a long drawn out death from starvation or the elements but the Tarzan shtick with it sucking you down is just that a 30's TV shtick.

[Tom Phillips]

Aaron Miller 335 wrote:

... but the Tarzan shtick with it sucking you down is just that a 30's TV shtick.

But that 30's TV shtick is exactly why a lot of people like the quicksand cloak. The 1920's-30's pulp-action genre was a big influence on the Pathfinder game and the Golarion campaign setting. Sure, quicksand might not work that way in the real world ... but it's a time-honored staple of pulp-action and fantasy.

[Steven Helt]

Appreciate your comments, Aaron, as well as everyone else's. I used the Pathfinder rules for quicksand, and I think these other lists of corner cases are a great example of how a decent item can still be tough to adjudicate. I have some squirrely players at my Tulsa table, so I know that any item is only one player away from abuse. :b

[Sean K Reynolds]

Jeremiziah wrote:

Congrats, Steve! Good to see you make it this year.

I have a question for Steve, any of the judges, or really anyone who cares to weigh in. Is the Oxford comma not recommended in RPG writing? I've edited a few documents lately where it's not been used, and I'm seeing it here in this submission: "[...]filled with water, dirt and debris, resembling[...]"

Paizo style is based on the Chicago Manual of Style, and so uses serial commas. So let me do what I can to assure you, assuage your concerns, and generally reinforce the idea that you should use the serial comma, a.k.a. the Oxford comma or Harvard comma.

From my Freelancer Advice and Punishments document:

Commas
Paizo uses “serial commas.” That means if you have a list of things separated by commas, you put a comma after the next-to-last thing and before you say “and” or “or” or whatever. So:
Incorrect: Evil dragon colors are black, blue, green, red and white.
Correct: Evil dragon colors are black, blue, green, red, and white.

[Jacob W. Michaels]

Hmm, that's good to know, Sean. I'd have gotten it wrong after all my years using AP style.

And I agree with Sean. Much like Steve Miller's Necrotic Reef in last year's monster round, it may not match up perfectly with earth science, but it works in the fantasy gaming world. Though I do think Chris Schweiger raises a lot of good questions.

[Kalervo Oikarinen]

This was one of the items I really liked during the voting. The imagery of a quicksand cloak is really great. Congrats on making the Top 32!

[Pedro Coelho]

Steven,

This was between the first good items I saw, and it really stood out before the cull. The thing is, it really stood out after that, too. It seems to be in everybody's personal Top 32, so I think there's no dispute here when the judges say you delivered one of the strongest items of the open call. Congratulations and keep them coming!

[Kent T.]

This is a very cool item, and one of the first I've seen priced ok.
It's cheaper than Ring of FOM, but have less effect to, since it only helps against grapples.
The Save DC ought to be higher, this is a level 10+ item, mobs at this level would make the save way more than 50% of the time, even if it is one of the harder saves for most monsters/npc's.

A basic figter would at level 12 have 4 + dex + magic in reflex, so about 7-8. So for this to have a 50% effect rate, it should have at least DC 19 in save.

Besides that it is a really cool item, lacks some explanation as to wheter you have to save every round you make a grapple check, wheter you can use it offensively when grappling and such.
Think how can I abuse a portable quicksand hole? and adress that.
Like can I store things in it, what if I drop it from the ceiling on to the head of someone, can I trap a collosal creature in it, like a dragon that snatched me? And such.

[Nicolas Logue]

Wolfgang Baur wrote:

How tremendously cool and original is this weird thing! It feels like an item gone missing from the famous Mud Sorcerer's Tomb module.

This is a fun item with two good uses, not overpowered, and huge props for style. Recommended as a designer to watch.

Strong keep.

Agreed! This feels like some cool swag that shoulda been in MST. Nicely done, Steve!

[Mudfoot]

Best of the bunch.

[Clay Clouser]

Good job Steve! Glad to see you make such a huge splash in the first round. Hope you do as well in the second round. Proud to have you as my DM. Great item can't wait to use it against you :)

[Steven Helt]

You'll have to crawl out of it first!

[Steven Helt]

As my last words before the round two entries are revealed, I just want to thank Paizo for the opportunity, and tell everyone I am grateful for the kind words, feedback, criticism and continued support. Remember, we are constrained from responding to comments or questions so please be patient as the contestants eagerly await the end of voting so we can talk about this challenging round!

Best of luck to every competitor and alternate. This has already be great fun.

[Joel Flank]

Wow, didn't see this during the voting at all, so super glad that it made the top 32 - it's the type of item that should - very cool and innovative. One of the best anti-grappling items or spells I recall seeing, and appropriately horrible to deal with even at high levels when you could afford something like it.

I agree with lots of Jeremy's questions about what you can do to screw with someone trapped in the cloak. Even if they're a great swimmer, could you throw the cloak into your bag of holding and trap Aquaman inside the cloak forever, since an extra-dimensional space inside another won't function? Can you lock it in a box with no room for anything but the cloak so the trapped creature has nowhere to escape to? (can you with a fox for that matter?) Putting some non-breathing monsters in there would make it even nastier - try swimming out with a few zombies biting your face off in the quicksand!

Can't wait to see your future round entries!

[JessicaJones]

Amazing! Love the story possibilities.

[Jon Haire]

I remember the first time this item came up in a pair. It was pre-cull and I was VERY fatigued from voting. I read it through once and, for some reason, I was totally confused. After a second more focused reading, I was able to comprehend the awesomeness of this entry. I voted for this every time it came up in a pair. This is a great idea and great ideas always have mojo.

[Ask A RPGSupersuccubus]

Steven Helt wrote:

Quicksand Cloak

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot shoulders; Price 30,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This long, mottled-brown cloak seems heavy and feels damp to the touch. The exterior of the cloak disguises an extradimensional space filled with water, dirt and debris, resembling natural quicksand. Each time a creature of the wearer’s size (or smaller) attempts to grapple the wearer, it must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex save or be engulfed by quicksand (Core Rulebook, 427). In lieu of the grapple attempt, and every round trapped in the cloak’s extradimensional space, the trapped creature must make a Swim check (DC 15 + 1 for each consecutive failed Swim check) to climb out of the cloak, landing prone in a square adjacent to the wearer. Crawling out of the cloak provokes an attack of opportunity from the wearer. A creature that fails a Swim check by 5 or more submerges and begins to drown.

A quicksand cloak left on the ground with no wearer behaves as a patch of quicksand filling two 5’ squares. Creatures trapped in the cloak can attempt to swim out of it whether the cloak is worn or not. Though the quicksand space may contain debris or decayed bits of drowned victims (without increasing its weight), a quicksand cloak of any size only has enough room to trap one creature at a time. If a creature dies and is not pulled out of the cloak, the body becomes a part of the cloak’s debris and remains until removed.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, create water, rope trick, shifting sand; Cost 15,000 gp

Disclaimer: This post constitutes the viewpoint of a CE inclined succubus, and thus should be treated With All Due Seriousness. Great attention has been paid to the concepts Balance, Fairness, and Logic, or at least the Abyssal versions of these concepts (which is what matters, after all – who really gives a damn about the mortal versions)?

Further Disclaimer: Ask A RPGSupersuccubus has a scribe with higher priorities and not much spare time on his hands this year, therefore will be playing blatant favourites and picking a few contestants whose items to review. If they make it into the last round they might see another review then.

Is the item pretty?
Mottled brown isn't generally considered pretty. In a few rather 'strange' societies, perhaps, or maybe once in a few thousand years otherwise (almost anything becomes fashionable if one waits long enough, and mottled brown cloaks aren't anywhere near close to some of the truly bizarre things which occasionally are 'all the rage').

Does this item break easily if thrown at an annoying minion?
No, but it's conceivable if the cloak lands awkwardly, and the minion is, say, a dretch, that one may never see said minion ever again...

Would this item make a suitably embarrassing ‘gift’ if given away to a [female] paladin of Iomedae?
On balance, yes. Especially the social undertones of a gift like this... ('Romantic embraces with you are like cuddling a sucking quicksand bog'.)

Other Comments?
I'm not clear on how exactly the mechanics of this item work. A cloak is usually worn on one's back and speaking as a succubus, if I am going to be - ahem - 'grappling' with anyone, it's likely to be from the front (involving kissing them full on the lips too). Perhaps there's some sort of additional dimension warping effect with this item, so that anyone trying to 'grapple' a wearer automatically ends up behind the wearer, so said grappler is confronted with the bulk of the cloak...
Oh well, a mildly amusing item. Four out of ten.

Note:
See the Disclaimers, if you missed them. They really do mention Quite Important Stuff.

[Template Fu]

As prior entries will tell you, Template Fu is one mean point eating machine, but will also praise where praise is due.

These reviews being this in depth usually take me a while to do and they get fitted in around other demands on my time, so please bear with me if I haven’t gotten to your item yet. I will get there in the end.

Review Caveat: I try to keep things totally dispassionate and all comments herein are my own. Having not made the illustrious levels that you have achieved this year, I can only caveat that anything I propose in feedback may not be totally in line with what Paizo thinks or needs of its freelance game designers, so do consider carefully any and all feedback I make under this light.

I start your review with…

Congratulations on being selected by the public at large and then the stalwart judges!

Review Breakdown:

Template: 4/5
Almost perfect template use! Template Fu ran in, danced a merry jig as I was about to award full marks and pointed at the commas between the spells. He’s on fire again, you italicized the commas between the spells. Only the spell names should be italicized. He is such a meanie, but an eagle eyed meanie ;)

Spelling: 5/5
This bit IS boilerplate to avoid confusion. Everyone should know to use US English, so you just know that I am going to eat points for stray ‘u’ letters and similar.

Template Fu has gone to start Heroes season 3 with his dinner in hand from your template use…

Readability: 4/5
These are readings you can get from most spelling and grammar check options in word processors, for this, I am pasting everyone’s description into Word for consistency. My grading’s are purely my own personal feelings for target scores but it should be noted these are very helpful during development to spot problems in your writing, especially passivity.

Passive Sentences 30% (-1pt, it’s almost there… keep working on reducing this)
There are whole threads on this and it is possible to get 0%, which is wicked, but I would expect scores of less than 20% to be around the ideal mark for item descriptions (sometimes, you need the passive, but only rarely).

Flesch Reading Ease 64.2 (nice and easy to understand)
(0-30 best understood by university graduates, 60-70 easily understood by 13-15 year olds, 90-100 easily understood by 11 year olds)

Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 10.1 (a little high, but not terribly so)
(This equates to the grades found in the US schooling system, e.g. 8.2 means it should be understandable by the average 8th grade student)

Me as a Designer Review: 4/5
The first thing that draws my eye is a book reference - the page number doesn’t say “p” or “page” for initial reaction.

Secondly, it’s referring to the core rule book. In this case, it is expected that the reader owns the core rule book and has read it. So, in this case, you don’t need to refer to it – otherwise we would be referring to it for spells, feats, etc.

Further, referring to page numbers is also dangerous as they may change with subsequent errata / reprinting. I suspect that a good rule of thumb would be that you don’t need to refer to the Core RuleBook, Bestiary 1 or GameMastery Guide as they are the core books to the system.

I haven’t ever seen a definitive statement of when you should or shouldn’t refer to rulebooks, but going with no for core and yes for supplementary would seem to be a good rule (although I am tempted to say the advanced players/advanced races are pretty core too).

Judges/Paizo – if you read this, any chance of a clarification on when we should or shouldn’t add such references? Thanks in advance.

I wasn’t so keen on how quickly a trapped victim begins to drown as it is immediately after a first failed swim, normally you can hold your breath for a few rounds before starting to drown per the normal swimming and drowning rules.

Let’s say I fail a couple of consecutive swim checks, do I then need one swim check to stop drowning (reach the water surface again) and then another swim check to climb out of the cloak, or does the one swim check perform both? This needs to be caught and tightened up as this situation can and will arise during game play.

I think that’s about it on the part of the review. A very fun, useable, solid item. I will deduct just one point for all the points above combined.

Overall Impression: 5/5
This item conjured in my mind, (a very strange and wondrous place at times), the image of the Witch melting in the Wizard of Oz. So cool, it makes the evil Sir Walter Raleigh in me want to try doing away with the Queen in gallant manner. Yeah, I really like this item, so many possibilities.

You have set a high bar in the level of my expectation for your archetype.

Final Score: 22/25
I won’t give a final score comment as I haven’t for anyone else as I work through the items.

If this interests for personal reasons, please feel free to check out everyone else’s scores and at the same time check out your competition and their feedback too!

Closing, as I started…

Congratulations on being selected!

[Steven Helt]

I finally got my template fu! Nothing can spoil my day, now!

[Anthony Adam]

Yeah, sorry everyone, I'm catching up - my PC going terminally phut really didn't help :(

[Sean K Reynolds]

Template Fu wrote:

Judges/Paizo – if you read this, any chance of a clarification on when we should or shouldn’t add such references? Thanks in advance.

If the rule is obscure, it's helpful to point at its location, even if it's in the Core Rulebook. Frex, drowning doesn't come up very often, so I like to throw in a page number when it comes up.

If the rule is obvious or well-known, I generally don't put in a page number, even if from a book other than the Core Rulebook. Frex, if an archetype gives you the judgment ability of a 1st-level inquisitor, I wouldn't put a pointer to the APG because duh, it's the inquisitor class, which is in the APG, which is pretty common knowledge.

If it's in between the first and second example, I'd include a page number, especially if it's for something other than the Core Rulebook. For example, referring to the steal maneuver deserves a book and page reference, as steal maneuvers are (1) not in the core book, (2) not really "obscure," but (3) not really obvious either.

I'd definitely cite the sourcbook if the rule is specifically called out as an optional rule, like hero points or armor as DR.

[Anthony Adam]

Thanks Sean, I will update my big rd 1 thread in a little while, to include this in the description coverage.

[ZazzyDK]

So if I read this item correctly I would also be able to use it as extradimensional storage for an unlimited number of items (though it might be a bother to clean them afterwards) as long as they don't need quick and easy retrieval. It would also make this cape perfect for any holy types insisting on burying their slain foes in holy ground (just pop them in the cape and retrieve them later at your leisure). Plus the handy "undead-army"-storage ability.

[Steven Helt]

Well.....so it's clear, you can only smuggle one creature at a time. As far as storing stuff, I tried to fix that by making the cloak draw creatures in after grapple checks. You can't just throw stuff in it. Unless your GM says you can.