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Sniping is not worth it and here is why: While you are doing 1 attack per round and then hiding again your allies are fighting all out. Simply put: Pathfinder is not built very well to handle single attack options. It is almost always superior to perform multiple attacks then it is a single attack.
With that said, go for the Vital Strike tree since that is the only way you will stay even halfway equal to your full attack damage.
Archetype discussion:
Archer:
* Hawkeye: The perception bonuses rock although the increased range increment rarely comes into play.
* Trick Shot has a significantly reduced likelihood of success so you should not expect to succeed most of your trick shots against creatures of your CR or higher.
* Expert Archer is a specialized version of what base fighters get (Weapon Training).
* Safe Shot is the same as the feat Point Blank Master which you can take at level 4.
* Evasive Archer: This will rarely come into play. Additionally, since you have sacrificed all of your Armor Training you are in fact losing AC. This makes the loss a little less painful but not really worth it.
* Volley: This ability just flat out rocks. But few campaigns reach level 17.
* Ranged Defense: Too situational, there are really not enough ranged attackers in PF to make this worthwhile compared to a Fighters flat DR bonus.
* Weapon Mastery: the same as a fighters.
* Summary: The archer archetype has a nice perception bonus and trick shots are interesting, when they work, but the loss of Armor Training on a dex based build hurts a lot. Most of the other abilities do not make up for that loss. I would stick to a straight fighter.
Crossbowman:
* Deadshot: The damage bonus is great for a single attack build but as I stated earlier, that just makes single attack options less painful rather than a good idea. A Composite Bow with a decent strength bonus will probably have a better bonus to damage. Note: the readied action is a red herring, it is really a standard action.
* Crossbow Expert: The same as Fighter Weapon training but narrowed down to just a crossbow.
* Improved Deadshot: What is not to love about eliminating the target's dexterity bonus? Again, readied (standard) action to use and thus cuts you out of multiple attacks.
* Quick Sniper: Great bonus for sniping. The immediate action retaliatory shot is not very useful in most games.
* Greater Deadshot: Now this surpasses the strength bonus most people will have on Composite Longbows but you are still limited to a single attack.
* Safe Shot: You can get Point Blank Master much earlier (level 4 at the earliest).
* Pinpoint Targeting: Nice feat for a single-shot build but in general your first attack hits anyhow. This just makes it a little more certain.
* Meteor Shot: See my point about Archer trick shots.
* Penetrating Shot: Interesting. Very situational.
* Weapon Mastery: Same as the fighters.
* Summary: Unfortunately, many of the abilities actually prevent you from re-stealthing after attacking so you cannot snipe with them. The reason is the readied action only allows you to perform a standard action and sniping requires both a standard and a move action. This means that the quick sniping ability does not work with all of the abilities that require a readied action. However, this is a good build if you want to perform single attack actions and minimize the pain of doing so. If you want to use this for sniping I would suggest asking for a houserule that allows you to use the readied actions as standard actions instead.
Rogue Sniper:
* Accuracy: Unless you are using a crossbow this is not really worth it since you will do most of your sniping at sneak attack range. Assuming a Composite Shortbow tt will become worth it when you hit 15th level because at that level Deadly Range allows you to sneak attack at 80feet.
* Deadly Range: VERY useful regardless of the archery build. I would take this and then make a full attack Rogue Sniper IF I could get a reliable source of Greater Invisibility.
I hope this helps but frankly, there is a reason you do not see many sniper builds. They are great as NPCs (read: annoying to players) but PCs need to work with other PCs. While you are hiding and shooting one shot per round your buddies are fighting and dying.
- Gauss
KenderKin, OR they can just use the sniping rules and reduce the penalty as much as possible (there are a number of ways to do that).
- Gauss
Dot.
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If you're looking for a holy sniper, straight Inquisitor has a plethora of options and flavor. The Paladin (Divine Hunter) archtype is nice, but you'll have to dump Int (and have 1 skill point per level) to make the class work and it's too MAD for a 15 point buy.
For a simply martial build, you can't go wrong with a ranger. Taking a dip with Urban Ranger will really help your low 15 point ability buy. Although the fighter (archer) archtype is decent, personally I prefer fighter (weapon master). You get early access to weapon training and focus completely on damage output rather than bells and whistles (why fire a trick shot when you can fill your opponent's belly with arrows?)
Dot Two.
Alchemist is the way to go. Explosive Missile + Kirin Strike + Targeted Bomb Admisture = dead dude.
However that is all the from ultimate line of books. Zen Archer wouldn't be bad. They can use there unarmed fist damage on arrows, combine that with a monk's robe and vital strike and you would deliver a pretty big hit.
What does everyone think of a halfling rogue (with appropriate traits and archetype) who takes a one level dip into shadow dancer? I've never done it, but I like the idea.
If you're willing to wait for the payout, rogue scout 8-9, foresight wizard 1, sniper goggles. At that point, if you're hitting reliably stick with rogue, or switch to xbow or weapon master fighter. Popup from stealth within 30', take a 2d8+5d6+10(+magic), then sniper stealth again with your move.
Better would probably be longbow weapon master fighter and (guide?) ranger, for reliable long range destruction at your whim. Dueling gloves, gravity bow, falcon aspect. At that point you're talking some hefty damage, in the one round kill area.
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A different take on sniping I always found interesting was not relying on maxing out your Stealth so much, but instead pushing your Perception so high that you can simply attack from so far away that your quarry has little to no chance of spotting you, even while full attacking.
The problem is that you cannot use the ultimate books... Without sniper goggles you must be within 30 feet to SA .
Consider a dip into a class that grants true strike, for when your 3/4 is to low.
Better to get decent enough with UMD to reliably use a wand of the spell, as it doesn't benefit from CL at all.
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One hard hit was the goal for me, which is part of why I wanted to throw in the Rogue—sneak attack throws a lot of extra damage.
Granted this shies away from your one hard hit goal, but here's build for a ranged assassin using 15 BP that will prove useful in combat. You won't need to hide because chances are your first volley of arrows will kill your target.
Stats:
Str: 16 (+2 race)
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Alternatively you could have 18 Dex to start and 14 Str, it all depends on how much damage you want. Personally I favor 16 Str because you can use Urban Barbarian to enhance your Dex. Plus, if you're ever forced into melee you'll still deal great damage with a Two-Handed weapon.
lvl 1: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher): Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (Human)
lvl 2: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher): Rapid Shot
lvl 3: Barbarian (Urban): Deadly Aim
lvl 4: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher):
lvl 5: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher): Extra Rage
lvl 6: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher):
lvl 7: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher): Improved Precise Shot, Multishot
lvl 8: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher):
lvl 9: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher): Extra Rage
lvl 10: Ranger (Guide/Skirmisher):
The guide ability lets you slay BBEGs and spellcasters with impunity. Plus you'll buff allies when in favored terrains and have tons of skills to excell outside of combat.
Obviously, I can't help you, since your GM isn't allowing Ultimate books, then he's obviously not allowing 3PP. That said, to me, nothing from Paizo fits the concept of sniper, rather many possibilities at ranged fighting, but ranged combatant alone does not define 'sniper' (not including Ray specialist casters).
To me, sniper is qualified with 'one shot, one kill'. Being able to shoot dozens of distance attacks is equivalent to a ranged combatant not a sniper.
The yabusame samurai archetype from Rite Publishing is not a stealth based class, however, it's much, much closer to the concept of sniper, as his special ranged attack abilities are all standard actions; one shot, one kill. The original Japanese samurai were skilled in long distance and accuracy, not volumes of arrows shot - which to me is the big difference between sniper and all other ranged combatants.
Alchemist is the way to go. Explosive Missile + Kirin Strike + Targeted Bomb Admisture = dead dude.
That is an interesting combination, but wouldn't "Kirin Style" (add Int-modifier to damage twice)do the same as "targeted bomb admixture" and thus not stack?
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Hello friends!
A new campaign is about to start up, and we're making 2nd-level characters for it. A buddy of mine is doing stuff with polearms, and I want to do stuff with sniping. I've taken a look at the Fighter archetypes Archer and Crossbowman, and the Rogue archetype Sniper, and I am wondering what other options if any exist to make a good sniper. Looking at the math, Archer seems better than Crossbowman because of bows being better than crossbows in general. I'm not sure how much utility I would get out of Sniper compared to a regular Rogue. I'd appreciate some advice!
Ability scores are 15-point buy, and we're excluded from using any of the "Ultimate" books. I'd really appreciate it if anyone could give me some advice on how to make an effective sniper. I'll be happy to answer any questions and provide the work I've put into the character thus far for critique.
Thanks in advance!
While you said your GM has excluded the "Ultimate" books if he hasn't excluded the Advanced Players Guide there is a Halfling alternate racial trait "Swift As The Shadows" that reduces the difficult of remaining hidden after firing by 10. Then at 10th level the there is the Stealth Sniper rogue talent from the same book that reduces it by 10 so you can shoot and hide again with no penalty by lvl 10.
Gunslinger(Musket Master) with levels of Rogue, Ninja, or even Ranger.
Or Gunslinger(Bushwhacker).
Other than that a Rogue or Ninja can make good snipers.
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Gunslinger(Musket Master) with levels of Rogue, Ninja, or even Ranger.
Like Azaelas suggest, the best snipers are a musket master using a double hackbutt and the deadshot deed. If guns don't fit your style, you may consider working with your GM to allow the Deadshot dead as a ranger skirmish ability that works with bows.
Essentially you'd combine all your attacks into a single one that deals considerably less damage than a normal full attack unless you score a devastating critical hit.
I hate how the Crossbowman Fighter is... I really need to homebrew that Archetype...
@kaisc006: Bushwhacker can be good as you essentially get Sneak Attack.
Alchemist is the way to go. Explosive Missile + Kirin Strike + Targeted Bomb Admisture = dead dude.
That is an interesting combination, but wouldn't "Kirin Style" (add Int-modifier to damage twice)do the same as "targeted bomb admixture" and thus not stack?
I've never heard of that rule, where did you see it?
Doesn't the Scout Archetype stack with the Sniper Archetype?
That could be handy to go full Rogue with and become a Skirmisher.
Winston has a nice idea...
Assassin's Death Attack requires a melee weapon. Ninja's Assassinate doesn't and requires only 1 round of study, though targets become immune after the first one.
Huh. Death Attack does specify melee. I never noticed that. That... sucks.
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There is a possibility with halflings. Go halfling slingstick, take slinging traits and feats. Large target etc help a lot with damage and hitting. Then go halfling oportunist untill the end and voila you have a huge threatened area with snap shot and all AoO´s get sneak attack.
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Ok with a 15 point buy, no magic gear, excluding the "Ultimate" books all together, and using strictly pathfinder material the following is the best i can come up with. Note ur damage will not be all that great but u will hit as long as u dont roll a 1, i guarantee.
-Race-
Human
-Class-
Fighter (Weapon Master)
-Stats-
STR 12(base 12)
DEX 23(base 16)(racial 2)(leveling 5)
CON 10(base 10)
INT 14(base 14)
WIS 10(base 10)
CHA 08(base 08)
-Misc-
Hit 33(37 if using Bullseye Shot)
Dmg 4d10+5+4
Crit Hit 17-20 x3
Crit Dmg 3d10+3d10+27
-Feats-
01 Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
02 Crossbow Mastery Heavy Crossbow
03 Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
04 Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
05 Precise Shot
06 Vital Strike
07 Far Shot
08 Greater Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
09 Mounted Combat
10 Mounted Archery
11 Improved Vital Strike
12 Greater Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
13 Improved Precise Shot
14 Bullseye Shot
15 Improved Critical Heavy Crossbow
16 Greater Vital Strike
17 Critical Focus
18 Blinding Critical
19 Bleeding Critical
20 Critical Mastery
-Method-
Reload Heavy Crossbow as free action via Crossbow Mastery. Move action increase to hit by 4 via Bullseye Shot. As a standard action perform a vital strike that can hit touch ac and ignore DR at any range via Fighter Weapon Master's Unstoppable Strike. As an immediate action be able to reroll attack roll, critical hit confirmation roll, miss chance check, or damage rolls via Fighter Weapon Master's Reliable Strike. Also on confirmed crits as an immediate action further increase the crit multiplier of the Crossbow by 1 via Fighter Weapon Master's Deadly Critical. All from foot or from horse back thanks to Mounted Archery.
Love the image of the crossbow sniper. How good is it at low to mid levels?
You need to get the distance enhancement of course and make it look like a scope.
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The haters are there, but so are the lovers of the Crossbowman archetype.
At later levels, the Crossbowman gets some really interesting mechanics and they do what you want quite well.
The best feat for a Crossbowman unfortunately requires a chain of feats that go against archetype. That feat is Deadly Stroke. It's in the core rulebook. You can take it at 11th, and the ability you get at 9th to make all of your attacks hit as though the target was flat-footed means once each round you can make a ranged attack that deals double damage and CON bleed. Now every single shot you make will kill the target unless the get medical attention or magical healing in a number of rounds equal to twice their CON score.
Unfortunately this requires taking the Dazzling Display feat. That is the opposite of what you want to do when you're sniping. I recommend you take any other low-level useful Combat bonus feat in its place and retrain it to Dazzling Display at 8th. Also, Shatter Defenses is nearly useless as you do most of it already. It's the capstone of the chain that's the beauty of it. And you have to wait to 11th or 12th to get it (12th if you're planning to retrain.)
One such feat I'd recommend is Focused Shot. It allows you to add your Intelligence mod to damage on your standard action shots. It won't stack with Deadly Stroke, so it's one of the feats you can train out as you get better with your standard actions.
If you feel like adding poison to your shots, all the better as their Fort save will drop. Assuming you can remain hidden, you can take a shot at them, hide again, apply some poison to your next bolt, wait for them to bleed a bit, then take another shot and they'll have a reduced fortitude with which to save.
Not that you don't have enough feats to take, but the Master Alchemist feat [APG] will let you make poison on the cheap.
Small races get a sizable boost to Stealth. The Human race gets a bonus feat that you can spend on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Double Crossbow) [which is listed in the APG.] Double crossbow can fire two bolts at once, still at a standard action, and you'll apply the bonuses from the Crossbowman class features to each bolt.
Another crossbow worth considering is the heavy repeating crossbow, which lets you skip the Rapid Reload feat, assuming you don't mind exchanging the cartridge which greatly reduces your time. In an average combat, if you're doing every shot as a standard action, five shots with a move action available may be more valuable to you.
Starting at 2nd level, you will probably be left behind in damage until you start delivering stat damage at 80 to 120ft range at 9th.
A crossbow also has a higher critical threat range than a bow, so critical feats are fair game to be applied at range. Impact Critical is pretty funny.
Also, these are only available at low levels. At early levels, you are merely attempting to overcome the handicaps of using a Crossbow. Don't lose hope!
If you need to make a full attack, you still have a lot of the associated feats so you can use a Bow in the meanwhile.
If you aren't going to get to the higher levels, you may find it not worth your while. Always have a back-up weapon, including a bow and your golf-bag.
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@Thanael
1ce the character hits level 2 the problem of reload for the Heavy crossbow is no more and with rapid shot ur shooting 2 bolts until u hit level 5 in which case its 3 bolts. At level 6 is when u get vital strike and start shooting 1 bolt at decent damage. At level 10 to give more speed the mounted archery feat comes in2 play were u can easily move around the battle field with same tactics and retreat if need be. The critical feats i tossed on there because i did not find much better and if u do get the crit blind going then u dont have to rely hide. Also the mount is there for same reason of dont need to hide if u continue moving farther and farther and having it use trees and boulders for cover. Only real threat is casters which should be dealt with 1st which is a no brainier.
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@Pharmalade
the problem with a lot of what u listed does not work for a sniper character like Focused Shot which states u have to be in 30ft of the target. Snipers are supposed to be as far as they can be and provider either a)1 shot kills or b) cover fire fro a great distance. 30 ft is not a great distance. The problem with snipers though is the farther u get the worse ur 2 hit is thats y, imo, weapon master fighter is the best because it can, as a standard action that can be vital striked, hit a targets touch ac at any distance and by pass all dr which is a godly ability. Also Deadly Stroke is what we call a serious feat tax and if u read vital strike it actual does as much damage until u get improved and great in which case it just floored Deadly Strike. Admittedly Crossbow Master is the same way in but at least the feats required for that like point-blank shot are required for other archer related feats in the build so its not as daunting.
I like the Crossbowman archetype I just hate how it requires you to ready an action.
If I recall correctly, the Sniper Goggles are in Ultimate Combat, which the OP stated isn't allowed (I wanted them for my Rogue too and then realised that they're not in the books allowed).
Take a Rogue (just the plain Rogue), one of the small races (probably a Gnome due to Low-Light Vision), and a high Dex plus Int at at least 11. Keep your Str at 10 or more (but 10 is probably enough, you just don't want to get a damage penalty with ranged weapons).
Your feats: Shadow Strike (SA against Concealment), SF Stealth, maybe Stealthy, possibly Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Initiative
Your Rogue Talents: Fast Stealth (right at level 2), then Minor and Major Rogue Magic (Minor your choice, but a RTA cantrip like Ray of Frost might be a good idea to hit the lowest possible AC with SA whenever possible; Major: Vanish)
You don't want to be seen if you're counting on SA and play a character with a d8, so the high Dex will help you with three crucial things: ranged attack bonus, AC, and Stealth.
Vanish allows you to disappear even in plain sight (and since your Rogue level counts as CL, even concentration checks shouldn't be too difficult if you have to cast right next to an enemy to get out of a bad situation), while a high Stealth bonus (my level 6 character has a bonus of 22 and actually hit 62 total while invisible last session--try to find that Rogue before he peppers you with one or more SAs) might save your life and/or allow you to get SA on your opponents before they even know you're there.
I chose a shortbow so that I don't need Rapid Reload for more than one attack per round.
Tactics: Always, and I mean always, sneak (with Fast Stealth, you don't get a reduced movement speed while sneaking). If you can attack with more than one attack per round, you could spend your surprise round to get into a good spot that allows you to maintain your Stealth against those enemies who haven't yet noticed you (kind of what Go Unnoticed does for you if you did not get a surprise round but act before the enemy in the first round of combat, iirc). Your Initiative should also be not too bad (especially if you decide to take Improved Initiative), so with a bit of luck you might even get a surprise round and a full round of flat-footed enemies before they can (re)act.
Even when minmaxing Stealth like this, Sniping would not be a good option most of the time (I would have an effective bonus of +2 right now at level 6), but it might become a viable option at higher levels, especially if you can get some magic item with a high Stealth enhancement bonus. Still, my Rogue rocks as a sniper even without using the actual Sniping action ;)
Best,
your crazy gnome lady from next door
I am going to make it to where the Deadshot and its increased forms apply DEX to all damage. Though Imp. Deadshot still only applies on Readied Shots.
Though the way it is now is wonderful for NPCs.
If you take Leadership, you could have your Inquisitor/Ranger/Sorcerer/Witch follower cast Named Bullet and/or Greater Named Bullet on a few pieces of your ammo, whether that be arrows or bolts or whatever. Those spells last 10 min/lvl or until used, making them great for prepping if you have an idea what sort of monsters you will be facing soon. The associated auto-crit (well, almost auto) goes well with lots of feat chains and the extra damage/lvl is nice too, as it comes from a spell usually cast out of combat, allowing the cohort to effectively use two spell actions in one round of combat.
@Pharmalade
[snip] Also Deadly Stroke is what we call a serious feat tax and if u read vital strike it actual does as much damage until u get improved and great in which case it just floored Deadly Strike. Admittedly Crossbow Master is the same way in but at least the feats required for that like point-blank shot are required for other archer related feats in the build so its not as daunting.
I will disagree with you here. With a Crossbowman you can add your DEX to damage and make 'em flat-footed on readied shots and you can use Deadly Stroke as a standard action. While it does have a hefty feat tax it is one I would willingly pay.
I will agree that Vital Strike is better than Focused Shot for a distance sniper. I will not agree that it or the chain is better than Deadly Stroke. If both are Crossbowmen Deadly Stroke deals 2x (1d10+DEX+Weapon & Training Bonuses) plus con bleed, whereas Improved Vital Strike would be 3x1d10, plus DEX after thefact, and no con bleed.
With a +2 weapon and +5 dex mod and +2 weapon training and Deadly Aim (for 6 extra), Deadly Stroke averages 41 plus CON bleed. Improved Vital Strike with it's companion feat Devastating Strike at 9th is 35.5 on average.
So if you won't make it to later levels, take your Vital Strike feats. If you want to always be able to do CON bleed, go Deadly Stroke and eat your lackluster feats.
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@Pharmalade
Well u seem to have it pegged down. I do have 1 question for u and that is how are u gona get them flat footed to u with out wasting a full-round action in hopes that u can intimidate them. Also by extention leaving ur self open to being attacked since u will have to be within 30 ft of said target and btw cant ready an action since that takes a standard action on ur turn to do. Good luck being close range ill be waiting for ya up the hill 1/2 a mile away as u solve that problem.
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And I will snipe you all with my Fighter(Archer).