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Hiya.
I've run a couple of playtests with my group this last week. We mostly found that the problems in the basic document has been addressed elsewhere, so I won't repeate them here.
What I would like to mention is that when we sat after the second playtest and started talking about it we all had kind of an empty feeling from it.
As we exprerinced it the Mythic rules as they are now adds some power to the game, but it doesn't add any flavor. Everything gets a boost and some new toys, but these are essentially a better version of the toys we already have, though with the added bookkeeping needed due to new
costs and new currencies.
The Spells are the same but with a little added power and so are the feats. There's no Myth, no real feeling of otherness and awe. It feels like a boring, uninspired expansion for an online game, just raising the power level without adding anything truely different or interesting.
The different paths seems interesting at first, but in effect they end up being just non-class-specific "classes" which adds some new powers to the game, feels like I might as well play a ghestalt game and dispense with doing a new form of bookkeeping.
Sorry to be a grouch, but as the Mythic rules look like now there's very little Myth and quite a bit of Ick to them and they are diffenately not living up to their name :(
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1000 times this. I'd rather have unique cool abilities that aren't any more powerful than just the same recycled stuff with more power. The same old stuff of increasing saves and ab ect and giving skill bonuses and such is just boring. I can't get my group interested in even play testing this because there is nothing new and original.
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I kinda feel the same. They are going to have to put a lot of work into flavor or this system is going to fail miserably. I understand that a playtest like this can not have all of that but I know they have heard this from others and are working on it. If it truly is just about gaining new powers I would be really really disappointed.
I disagree.
First off let me say I was sceptical towards "mythic" to begin with. I belong to the camp that loved the old Epic levels handbook for D&D, and wanted someting for pathfinder that allowed for level 20+.
However after having played 2 sessions in a new campaign of "way of the wicked" one of wich we were tier 1 mythics I'm sold on it.
After the first session we got to level 2 and had out moment of ascesion. we were 4 players this session. The second session only 2 of us players could make it, but we now had an edge over normal level 2's. we were mythic. And it was awesome. We were able to do 6 encounters in a row with no rest, going straight to level 4.
I still would like to see an epic level handbook some day, but for now I feel mytic is doing the trick of making characters more awesome.
I feel mytic is doing the trick of making characters more awesome.
This is precisely what I mean. the rules set makes characters more awesome. It doesn't make them more interesting, dynamic, heroic or ... well, mythic. It just makes them more awesome. Slap on a ghestalt class and you have the same result, but with less bookkeeping.
I must admit that I never really liked the epic rules, they where too clunky and unpolished for my tastes and after a few tries we put them away and forgot about them.
The problem with the epic rules - for us at least - was that they where made for playing after level 20, and we never really bothered playing after level 15 or so. So since the Epic rules wasn't a smooth run and was quite a headache for our then GM, we never felt the magic.
So I had high hopes for the Mythic rules, a rules set to add to characters at any level to make things more ... I don't know how to say it right, but, making things looking awesome on film.
What we currently see is the same old feats and spells, peppered with a few interesting tidbits in the form of the Mythic Paths, but essentially there's nothing we haven't seen before.
If it should be truely Mythic there should be abilities that would allow a character to tear a building apart with his bare hands, or create truely spectacular magical effect along the lines of raising a city of glass from a barren desert. I'd even settle for a feat that doubles my strength bonus for everything related to lifting or bursting down doors, even though that seems a bit boring as well.
I understand that we need a clear, and mostly balanced, rules set for this, but could we, by all the gods both new and ancient, please get some Myth into this thing?
I'd hope the answer is yes, and they bring some more myth into this thing. However when we had our last session it did feel like I was mythic with just one tier, and I imagine it can only get better with more tiers.
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As the GM, I'm left to make the game more "mythic". The ruleset gives me tools in the toolbox to accomplish that purpose. Describing time slowing down momentarily so the Monk/Guardian can seemingly bend time and physics in contorting his body to avoid a Wraith's touch and immediately lashing out his foot in retribution sounds more of a myth to me than just saying "Sudden Block".
I have to disagree immensely with the sentiment that it does not make the game more mythic. I've already got campaigns and stories set in my head for my RL group to get to their Moment of Ascension and for their Trials.
Setting up my BBEG is much more storied. He's a whispered name of fear amongst common folks, where mothers tell their children to be in before dark lest they be swallowed body and soul by him.
I've got quite the opposite reaction, I'm supremely excited for the tools this has added to the toolbox. It's all how I, the GM, present those tools as part of the work that makes it seem more mythic.
As the GM, I'm left to make the game more "mythic". The ruleset gives me tools in the toolbox to accomplish that purpose. Describing time slowing down momentarily so the Monk/Guardian can seemingly bend time and physics in contorting his body to avoid a Wraith's touch and immediately lashing out his foot in retribution sounds more of a myth to me than just saying "Sudden Block".
I have to disagree immensely with the sentiment that it does not make the game more mythic. I've already got campaigns and stories set in my head for my RL group to get to their Moment of Ascension and for their Trials.
Setting up my BBEG is much more storied. He's a whispered name of fear amongst common folks, where mothers tell their children to be in before dark lest they be swallowed body and soul by him.
I've got quite the opposite reaction, I'm supremely excited for the tools this has added to the toolbox. It's all how I, the GM, present those tools as part of the work that makes it seem more mythic.
Well said, well said indeed!
I do dabble at GM'ing, but I do not by a long shot feel as comfortable with it as just playing. This is someting that I would wholeheartedly agree with though as a GM.
As the GM, I'm left to make the game more "mythic". The ruleset gives me tools in the toolbox to accomplish that purpose. Describing time slowing down momentarily so the Monk/Guardian can seemingly bend time and physics in contorting his body to avoid a Wraith's touch and immediately lashing out his foot in retribution sounds more of a myth to me than just saying "Sudden Block".
I have to disagree immensely with the sentiment that it does not make the game more mythic. I've already got campaigns and stories set in my head for my RL group to get to their Moment of Ascension and for their Trials.
Setting up my BBEG is much more storied. He's a whispered name of fear amongst common folks, where mothers tell their children to be in before dark lest they be swallowed body and soul by him.
I've got quite the opposite reaction, I'm supremely excited for the tools this has added to the toolbox. It's all how I, the GM, present those tools as part of the work that makes it seem more mythic.
I'm glad you like it, I really am. But the things you mention shouldn't require a new rules set, I've been doing it for years. If my villians aren't known and hated by the players, or feared due to their elusive evil and convoluted plots, I haven't really gone into making a villian if the group can't remember him a few campaigns later.
I agree that the trials does give a more mythic feel, since it is no longer about xp. And the Mythic Paths are quite tasty at their core ideas, I've already said so earlier.
The problem for my group and I is that the Mythic Feats and Spells aren't very interesting. It's more of the same old with a new wrapping and a new cost. It's a bit like expecting cake and getting oatmeal, dissapointing, but still filling.
As to what I would suggest for abilities; I would prefer stuff that feels different from the normals stuff. Like the spell that shapes a glass city from the desert sand. Or feats in the style of the Skyrim Shouts where a non-caster use an inborn power to change the world around him.
Buttom line for me and mine is that we like the basic idea and the paths, but the spells and feats are unimaginative and unappealing to the point where they begin to feel more like a tax than a reward.
Sorry, I'm not convinced.
I can think of a lot of nice abilities that would make characters seem more mythic... but if people were complaining about mythic being too Anime before this would just make it far worse.
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What I am having a hard time figuring out is what differentiates a group of level 1 PCs with mythic levels from, say, a group of level 5 PCs. And that's a bad sign. That kind of means "mythic" is just like getting a sudden boost in levels.
A good way to solve this would be to get rid of all the "number bonuses" that mythic level currently grant - that is, no bonuses to ability scores, no bonesus to attacks or damage or whatever. Just add new special abilities and powers. Think of the story of David and Goliath from the old testiment. David was no Odysseus or anything, certainly not an action hero, but as a mythic character he was able to accomplish amazing accuracy and force with his attack.
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What I am having a hard time figuring out is what differentiates a group of level 1 PCs with mythic levels from, say, a group of level 5 PCs. And that's a bad sign. That kind of means "mythic" is just like getting a sudden boost in levels.
A good way to solve this would be to get rid of all the "number bonuses" that mythic level currently grant - that is, no bonuses to ability scores, no bonesus to attacks or damage or whatever. Just add new special abilities and powers. Think of the story of David and Goliath from the old testiment. David was no Odysseus or anything, certainly not an action hero, but as a mythic character he was able to accomplish amazing accuracy and force with his attack.
Accuracy and force? sounds like it has to be numbers to me....
This is entirely GM territory again. The play style section of the play test suggests the "Common" playstyle would be akin to level 1/tier 1. Try Rare where I could easily see level 10 (or 20)/Tier 1. That's part of what I like so far, it's flexible enough to be post 20 play or straight from the get go.
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Accuracy and force? sounds like it has to be numbers to me....What I am having a hard time figuring out is what differentiates a group of level 1 PCs with mythic levels from, say, a group of level 5 PCs. And that's a bad sign. That kind of means "mythic" is just like getting a sudden boost in levels.
A good way to solve this would be to get rid of all the "number bonuses" that mythic level currently grant - that is, no bonuses to ability scores, no bonesus to attacks or damage or whatever. Just add new special abilities and powers. Think of the story of David and Goliath from the old testiment. David was no Odysseus or anything, certainly not an action hero, but as a mythic character he was able to accomplish amazing accuracy and force with his attack.
except for the part where he was a scrawny kid from hearding sheep, not a hulking brute with dextrous fingers. The deeds themsevles are what make a charcter more than just "very powerful" - being mythic is all about beating impossible odds, not about being the strongest dude around.
There were some things that did interest me that I would like to have them stick around. Mythic abilities like "feat of strength" that allows you to add +20 to strength checks or for lifting objects.
One mythic ability that I would love to have is the ability to retain bonuses and effects from magic items after you no longer wear them. Like boots of flying or teleportation, belt of physical perfection, and the like. Your character can be practically naked and still god-like at the same time. The item slot would still be taken up, but your not actually wearing it.
Anybody like that idea?
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Hm. I would rather the item be absorbed somehow, instead of not just worn, and the slot is unavailable for use. You lose the balance of possibly losing your bonus to strength from having your magical belt removed, but you can't upgrade it either or at least change it out for a new item, either. Dunno about balance, but I agree I like the ability to be awesome without item dependence.
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I agree with the OP. Paizo is great at creating fun "fluff" and this is sorely missing from this document. I hope that the full rulebook will fill the gap.
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I agree with the OP. Paizo is great at creating fun "fluff" and this is sorely missing from this document. I hope that the full rulebook will fill the gap.
I honestly have no doubt it will.
Remember, the play test is literally just seeing if the rules are okay and what needs tweaking. This is entirely numbers work, seeing what works and what doesn't, what needs a buff or needs a nerf, what should be added or taken away, etc. Once the rules are all ironed out and fine-tuned, then they'll add in all the wonderful fluff that they do really well.
I'd even settle for a feat that doubles my strength bonus for everything related to lifting or bursting down doors, even though that seems a bit boring as well.
Even though they have "feat of strength" to somewhat cover this, I would like extra abilities that do assist with this.
Maybe another mythical strength ability that allows you to lift far more than you normally can for short periods of time that can be used in conjunction with other abilities like "feat of strength" or the barbarians "strength surge" rage power.
Like making a strength check to lift heavy objects such as boulders, vehicles, and even buildings. It could function like: DC 25 for large, 35 for huge, 45 for gargantuan, and 55 for colossal objects for 2 rounds per mythic tier. Other factors can be like an extra +5 or so DC if it's rooted to the ground or other factors. Other factors can lessen the DC, like it the target is a creature rather than an object, if the object is lighter than most other objects of comparable size, or if the object is smaller than what's on the chart.
The ability doesn't exactly have to work like I wrote, but it gets rid of the need to calculate how much you can lift versus the GM deciding exactly how heavy their object is.
I honestly have no doubt it will.
Remember, the play test is literally just seeing if the rules are okay and what needs tweaking. This is entirely numbers work, seeing what works and what doesn't, what needs a buff or needs a nerf, what should be added or taken away, etc. Once the rules are all ironed out and fine-tuned, then they'll add in all the wonderful fluff that they do really well.
I agree that the fluff is usually quite good, at least for the Golarion things. But the Mythic stuff is not another Golarion book with the usual interesting fluff, it's a core rulebook and as a such it is crunch.
And again, with the danger of repeating myself; the rules are simply boring, they have a few interesting ideas, but those don't follow through and is surrounded by feat taxes and only slightly better than usual spells.
The things we see here is easy to make fluff for, but that doesn't make the spells and feats themselves anymore interesting.
But you will have to excuse me for now. Goodnight :)
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I agree with the OP. Paizo is great at creating fun "fluff" and this is sorely missing from this document. I hope that the full rulebook will fill the gap.I honestly have no doubt it will.
Remember, the play test is literally just seeing if the rules are okay and what needs tweaking. This is entirely numbers work, seeing what works and what doesn't, what needs a buff or needs a nerf, what should be added or taken away, etc. Once the rules are all ironed out and fine-tuned, then they'll add in all the wonderful fluff that they do really well.
Rules are what we use to play the game, and if the rules don't support the fluff in cases like Mythic play, then you'll end up perilously close to 4E or those Final Fantasy spells where you nuke a planet in your cut scene...to deal some damage against the party.
A hopefully more lucid explanation of the concern is that the mythic rules don't feel any more mythic than adding another +1 to your character sheet and saying hero points are refreshing each day rather than each level. From the point-of-view of the characters, they're not going to look any more mythic unless you staple fluff onto them to describe their actions as being bigger and better, which is something you could've been doing with a level up to begin with.
Epic and mythic are both synonymous in expectation with a shift in paradigms in how your character's abilities interact with the setting. Slaying marginally more enemies or surviving some fraction more damage is neither dramatic nor is it 'mythic' unless you inflate the numbers to something obscene. Lifting wagons and buildings, stealing the colour of someone's eyes, cutting someone so deep that others who see the wound suffer stigmata-level sympathy wounds, scaring people so profoundly their kin are shaken regardless of distance; these are the kind of things that go beyond 'get two actions this round' or 'you succeed at your action 15% more often'.
I agree with the OP. Paizo is great at creating fun "fluff" and this is sorely missing from this document. I hope that the full rulebook will fill the gap.I honestly have no doubt it will.
Remember, the play test is literally just seeing if the rules are okay and what needs tweaking. This is entirely numbers work, seeing what works and what doesn't, what needs a buff or needs a nerf, what should be added or taken away, etc. Once the rules are all ironed out and fine-tuned, then they'll add in all the wonderful fluff that they do really well.
Rules are what we use to play the game, and if the rules don't support the fluff in cases like Mythic play, then you'll end up perilously close to 4E or those Final Fantasy spells where you nuke a planet in your cut scene...to deal some damage against the party.
A hopefully more lucid explanation of the concern is that the mythic rules don't feel any more mythic than adding another +1 to your character sheet and saying hero points are refreshing each day rather than each level. From the point-of-view of the characters, they're not going to look any more mythic unless you staple fluff onto them to describe their actions as being bigger and better, which is something you could've been doing with a level up to begin with.
Epic and mythic are both synonymous in expectation with a shift in paradigms in how your character's abilities interact with the setting. Slaying marginally more enemies or surviving some fraction more damage is neither dramatic nor is it 'mythic' unless you inflate the numbers to something obscene. Lifting wagons and buildings, stealing the colour of someone's eyes, cutting someone so deep that others who see the wound suffer stigmata-level sympathy wounds, scaring people so profoundly their kin are shaken regardless of distance; these are the kind of things that go beyond 'get two actions this round' or 'you succeed at your action 15% more often'.
Pretty much the truth.
There are somethings that I do feel like that has some of that mythic fluff in the book. Like how sleep can have a radius of 1-mile, timestop can potentially last 20 hours, how a 10th tier guardian can be coup de graced with something as big as a cannon only to deal no damage, and the strength feat ability that I mentioned early. Those were pretty much my favorite things from the playtest and I hope to see much more of that in the final product.
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being mythic is all about beating impossible odds, not about being the strongest dude around
I totally agree. Being "the strongest dude" around would be Epic not Mythic ! Since the beginning of this playtest, we are told that "Mythic is not Epic", but in practice the mythic abilities described are completely epic in nature. IMHO there is some confusion as to what exactly this new ruleset tries to achieve. Is it there to help us create mythic adventures as is being advocated ? or rather is it there to actually replace epic levels without having to "fix the maths" of the d20 system at high level ?
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I feel like all of those abilities described - the "terrifying kin by scaring a dude" thing - are things we can build ourselves with the framework Mythic is trying to do, and not something we should expect from Paizo.
Don't forget - first and foremost, Mythic is a toolset to allow us to build upon. That's always been 3.5's greatest strength, and it's Pathfinder's greatest strength too - the sheer power of the toolset and the ease with which we can produce such things.
So, yeah, I mean, those are all cool ideas. You can build them into the system. Mythic Skills will probably be a thing, too, we just haven't seen them yet. But even if they aren't, you can easily set up ways to spend mythic power for skills.
Say you get to flag one skill as Mythic every tier you achieve, and that lets you burn a Mythic Power to use the Mythic option for the tier. Mythic Intimidate, if you succeed, terrifies all onlookers, and everyone within three miles grows shaken. Mythic Knowledge: Local, should you succeed on a DC 20-something check, allows you to know one secret from the town - whether that they're all Innsmouth or that they're all related or something like that. Mythic Climb allows you to walk straight up the side of whatever it is you're climbing, even if you couldn't possibly normally do that. Mythic Jump lets you multiply your jump distance by 100
So yeah. Either that kind of thing is coming, or it'll be easy to patch in.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I harbor pretty much the same feeling as the OP.
Even splat books in 3.5 did not give me a similar feeling of absolutely overwhelming power creep as does this small pdf. *sad face*
The balance seems to have gone missing completely: my impression is once one side has mythic abilities/tiers while the other doesn't encounters become a joke.
On the other hand a lot of extra work has to be put into the game by the GM to balance encounters via addition of mythic abilities/feats/tiers to monsters and NPCs rendering almost all of the previously released books moot for mythic campaigns.
That said, I'd concur that only the crunch has been put into the pdf - yet - who knows what a balanced presenation of crunch and fluff will do.
When I first read about mythic, my first association went immediatly to an old rules book from the Rolemaster system: Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes.
Currently, I'm trying to relocate my copy of it to by having a look at it see, whether the angle they took is different from mythic rules for PF or similar power creep ensued.
All I remember is that the PCs created had a nemesis in form of a god, harassing them over their "career". Thus a lot (as always) hinged on the GM's ability to create and pertain an atmosphere of permanent antagonism and dread.
Ruyan.
being mythic is all about beating impossible odds, not about being the strongest dude aroundI totally agree. Being "the strongest dude" around would be Epic not Mythic !
Heracles was so strong, he could hold the sky. Odysseus was the wittiest man in all Greece. Achilles was the best warrior of his time, even before we took his invulnerability into equation.
Three traits from three mythic heroes that were essential to their myths. All of them are primarily expressed through numbers in Pathfinder.
Fundamentally, the concepts of epic and mythic are closely intertwined.
Pathfinder is a game of rules and numbers, and to make a balanced Mythic rules set we do of course need more rules and - at times - more numbers. I agree with this completely. If I didn't want the rules load we already have, I can - and will - ignore the portions I don't need, no problem there.
I don't mind the power creep either, since I personally belive we must allow for some added power as the game advance least it will grind to a halt and no new material be released. Besides, I'm a gamer at heart, so I will always like new options that may give my group an edge.
No my problem with the rules set is simply that it is boring and thus unappealing. There is nothing new in the Feats and Spells. Well, except a few feats allowing you to use your bookkeeping skills to slightly greater effect, i.e Mythic Crafter, Mythic Paragon, Mythic Spells and those like them.
Also, the whole idea about mythic meaning buffs to saves and hit points and a load of damage reduction is unnessessary and overly complicating. Myth should spring from being able to do what no-one else can do. Being immortal is nice and actually feels pretty cool, but being able to use a slightly better Arcane Strike is just lipstick on a pig.
I personally belive that the Mythic rules would be much more interesting if they where made with Golarion in mind, since the campaign setting always seems to draw the most interest and creativity from the staff working on the various rules sets.
I feel like all of those abilities described - the "terrifying kin by scaring a dude" thing - are things we can build ourselves with the framework Mythic is trying to do, and not something we should expect from Paizo.
Don't forget - first and foremost, Mythic is a toolset to allow us to build upon. That's always been 3.5's greatest strength, and it's Pathfinder's greatest strength too - the sheer power of the toolset and the ease with which we can produce such things.
So, yeah, I mean, those are all cool ideas. You can build them into the system. Mythic Skills will probably be a thing, too, we just haven't seen them yet. But even if they aren't, you can easily set up ways to spend mythic power for skills.
Say you get to flag one skill as Mythic every tier you achieve, and that lets you burn a Mythic Power to use the Mythic option for the tier. Mythic Intimidate, if you succeed, terrifies all onlookers, and everyone within three miles grows shaken. Mythic Knowledge: Local, should you succeed on a DC 20-something check, allows you to know one secret from the town - whether that they're all Innsmouth or that they're all related or something like that. Mythic Climb allows you to walk straight up the side of whatever it is you're climbing, even if you couldn't possibly normally do that. Mythic Jump lets you multiply your jump distance by 100
So yeah. Either that kind of thing is coming, or it'll be easy to patch in.
I think this is brilliant.
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I guess I've been looking at this from a different angle.
Will adding mythic tiers make your game Mythic? Nope.
If you want to run a Mythic game, will using mythic tiers help? Looks like it to me.
But the rules don't add the Mythic, the rules support the Mythic. It's just like having diplomacy rules doesn't make your game a Diplomatic.
With that in mind, though, I think the final book needs a lot of good advice, sort of on the lines of the 2nd Edition DM Option: High-Level Campaigns. Even the playtest document has some, which is nice.
Some Mythic skill-use guidelines would be nice as well and cover a lot of the out-of-combat craziness. And it'd make the Trickster trickier, so it's win-win :)
Cheers!
Landon
Will adding mythic tiers make your game Mythic? Nope.
You do realize that's a bad thing?
So far, I don't see how the mythic ruleset presented actually acts a toolset; any more than being told "your hero points refreshed each day instead of each level." Being given a list of +3s here, double strikes there, doesn't tell you when it's appropriate to be able to lift a Boeing 747.
Yes, I can work it out myself, but that calls to question the entire point of getting the Mythic rules; if I have to house-rule in everything mythic that isn't a bigger Power Attack.
I mean, I want to see someone more skilled come up with a set of rules for super strength in a D&D game than what I've done; where you can throw a cow as a viable combat tactic without breaking the game.
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Will adding mythic tiers make your game Mythic? Nope.You do realize that's a bad thing?
No, I guess I don't realize that's a bad thing.
I just see it as a simple fact. Mythic is a tone. Rules can certainly support the tone of your game, but the GM and players set the tone.
Dropping new rules into an existing game doesn't and, in my opinion, shouldn't be expected to, radically change the tone of that game.
I mean, I want to see someone more skilled come up with a set of rules for super strength in a D&D game than what I've done; where you can throw a cow as a viable combat tactic without breaking the game.
We might be talking past each other, honestly. All I'm trying to say is that the rules telling you how to handle thrown cows doesn't make it into the kind of game where you throw cows.
At the same time, I understand why you'd be disappointed with the playtest rules if that's the sort of thing you're looking for. I personally wouldn't bother with a lot of situational rules like that, even if they were included, just making things up on the fly.
To me, checking a table to see whether my Hercules-clone can lob the head of the evil king's statue far enough to hit him in his balcony is the opposite of Mythic. The answer's "yes," "yes, but spend a Mythic power," or "yes and that counts as a lesser trial."
The fact that I'm going to be coloring outside the lines doesn't mean other people shouldn't get their rules. I just think advice on how to get a certain tone will help more than a hundred rules supporting that tone.
Cheers!
Landon
I think what he was talking about is just having abilities to do things that were normally impossible for a non mythic character. They don't have to be new mechanics, just feats, abilities, and spells that allow you to do something crazy in a simple manner like any other ability normally would be. Here what we mostly have in the play test is boring combat buffs, such as taking another turn, attacking with no penalty on secondary or third attacks, have more health in some form. Even with spells they are mostly just more damaging and buffer versions of what they normally are. You can't raise a town from the ashes or use prismatic sphere to cover an entire city, unless with wish from a very lenient GM, or anything in particular that really stands out.
This is just the first example I can think off the top of my head...but...
Cleave(Mythic) allows you to Cleave through on non-adjacent foes. Granted, it's small seeming, but if you are playing level 1/tier 1 then cleaving through non-adjacent wouldn't be possible normally. You could hit a goblin on either side of your diagonals in 1 attack!
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Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
I think this is an interesting discussion and one that we are having internally as well to ensure that this book is more than just a few numbers tossed around. I personally have the feeling that too much of the playtest ended up being a simple mechanical bonus without the added "oomph" to make it mythic. There is a difference between auto confirming crits.. which is certainly useful, and jumping up in the air, grabbing a dragon and slamming it into the ground. The first is probably more mechanically valuable, but the second is much more "mythic".
Suffice to say, we are working to add more of the later to the rules. Much of the rest that is described here as an issue deals with tone and setting. The text dealing with that was not included in the playtest for a number of reasons, but primarily because it just was not ready yet. There is going to be a significant section of the book talking about how to build mythic games and how to make it more of a impactful change in your game than just some numbers. We are getting there.. but for now, the playtest needed to focus on the mechanical. Its hard to playtest background info.
At any rate, thanks for all the feedback folks.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I just see it as a simple fact. Mythic is a tone. Rules can certainly support the tone of your game, but the GM and players set the tone.
Dropping new rules into an existing game doesn't and, in my opinion, shouldn't be expected to, radically change the tone of that game.
Then you have no reason to buy the Mythic rules, if you can't expect them to change or support a mythic tone, that's why it's a bad thing. I never said every permutation needed to be covered, but there needs to be guidelines; when all of the abilities are boring number boosters, then you've set a precedent that anything new fits that paradigm of boring numbers. If all of the actual mythic activities fall under pure Mother-May-I without even benchmarks to go off of, then there is no reason to get the supplement.
Do you buy the Rifts Main Book for your Amber campaign and expect people to not see it turn into Amber w/Plasma Guns?
You are correct. But casting a lot of miracle spells for some people (me) just doesn't feel mythic it feels like very powerful non-mythic. I had these very concerns when mythic was announced and they unfortunately have come true. This whole document ends up creating characters to me that seemed more complicated and, well, bland.
Thanks Jason! I had assumed that tone and setting were left out of the playtest. I saw hints of it here and there which led me to that assumption.
I'm a bit wordy as a GM at times as my real life group can attest, and I was figuring on Mythic being some additional words/mechanics to help me describe the mythical acts my PC's (or NPC's) commit.
This is probably part of what you are saying, but I would REALLY like to see an entire chapter almost devoted to the Trials...not only as mechanics but sample trials for every Tier level both Lesser and Greater. I really think that Trials are going to be stretching out the AP's I will run into much longer campaigns as each Greater trial is definitely going to be a session or two by themselves.
Also, are you planning on giving some examples for running an entire group through a Greater Trial (or Lesser)? I don't personally want to do separate trials for each party members and I don't personally want disparate Tier levels across my party.
Thanks again!
Do you buy the Rifts Main Book for your Amber campaign and expect people to not see it turn into Amber w/Plasma Guns?
This might be off topic, but I have no idea what is meant by this. Amber already has plasma guns, and even if it didn't, what does switching amber to rifts have to do with adding a mythic tone and/or a lot of bonuses to pathfinder?
Anyway, back on topic, what concerns me is not whether or not the eventual book will have guidelines for making games feel mythic, or whether there will be abilities that feel mythic in addition to the practical bonus abilities.
What concerns me is that the vital mechanical abilities of mythic seem to be "the same but more" and the new, fluffy stuff seems to be comparatively underwhelming.
I question whether increasing power has any purpose at all if it isn't contributing to the mythic-ness.
It seems to me that rather than giving the faster, more accurate attacks a free pass on the basis that they're mechanically important, each character's compulsory workhorse abilities badly need to be mythic-seeming.
Jason himself just compared a useful bonus to a less useful cool trick. If this is going to work for me, those two are going to have to switch roles.
Instead of this dichotomy of style and substance, I'd like to see the champion's Attack You Again abilities replaced with more stylish things. Maybe an ability that lets them fly while charging and throw monsters into nearby creatures or objects as a swift action.
That would let them handle fliers, couldn't be done without mythic, looks awesome and would be a way of dealing extra damage on top of your normal actions. Ticks all the boxes.
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Suffice to say, we are working to add more of the later to the rules. Much of the rest that is described here as an issue deals with tone and setting. The text dealing with that was not included in the playtest for a number of reasons, but primarily because it just was not ready yet. There is going to be a significant section of the book talking about how to build mythic games and how to make it more of a impactful change in your game than just some numbers. We are getting there.. but for now, the playtest needed to focus on the mechanical. Its hard to playtest background info.
Sounds like just the thing! Looking forward to see what you come up with.
Then you have no reason to buy the Mythic rules, if you can't expect them to change or support a mythic tone, that's why it's a bad thing. I never said every permutation needed to be covered, but there needs to be guidelines; when all of the abilities are boring number boosters, then you've set a precedent that anything new fits that paradigm of boring numbers. If all of the actual mythic activities fall under pure Mother-May-I without even benchmarks to go off of, then there is no reason to get the supplement.
If I couldn't expect them to support a Mythic tone, I wouldn't have any reason to buy the rules, no.
But that's why I said this immediately after what you quoted:
Rules can certainly support the tone of your game, but the GM and players set the tone.
For example, I've run Mythic games using bog-standard 2nd Edition D&D. Some rules would have helped, largely to separate the play experience from other D&D campaigns, but the setting and storylines and social contract are what make a game Mythic or not.
Maybe you set an arbitrary DC for Hercules and make him roll. Maybe you give Coyote "Steal Celestial Objects" then still narrate the consequences through DM fiat. Maybe Perseus's Mother-May-I comes in the convenient package of a magical item.
But it all plays out the same way. I'd rather we just be honest that myths follow the Rule of Cool rather than pretending there's a chart that can make things Mythic.
So, what I want out of the book is a lot of good ideas for telling Mythic stories and seeds for Mythic campaigns. I want rules for handling combats that are different enough players feel more awesome than normal. And I want rewards (lesser trials) and costs (Mythic Points) for handling edge cases around the Rule of Cool.
And, yes, I would happily be in line at GenCon to buy that book, even though it all comes down to Mother-May-I. Because otherwise I wouldn't buy any roleplaying books at all.
Cheers!
Landon
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Hey there folks,
I think this is an interesting discussion and one that we are having internally as well to ensure that this book is more than just a few numbers tossed around. I personally have the feeling that too much of the playtest ended up being a simple mechanical bonus without the added "oomph" to make it mythic. There is a difference between auto confirming crits.. which is certainly useful, and jumping up in the air, grabbing a dragon and slamming it into the ground. The first is probably more mechanically valuable, but the second is much more "mythic".
Suffice to say, we are working to add more of the later to the rules. Much of the rest that is described here as an issue deals with tone and setting. The text dealing with that was not included in the playtest for a number of reasons, but primarily because it just was not ready yet. There is going to be a significant section of the book talking about how to build mythic games and how to make it more of a impactful change in your game than just some numbers. We are getting there.. but for now, the playtest needed to focus on the mechanical. Its hard to playtest background info.
At any rate, thanks for all the feedback folks.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
This is an interesting response but i think you may of missed some of bulk of the complaints of the forum. The mechanics also need to feel mythic or special/unique not just the fluff and game story (which you mention is left out of the playtest). So if the rules in this play test don't feel like this i would hope that paizo would relook at them and revise them based on feedback rather than just relying on fluff to fill the gap. I would advocate a second revised play test. I suggest because i love :)
... jumping up in the air, grabbing a dragon and slamming it into the ground.
This. Precisely this.
It wouldn't have to be something that the character can and will do all the time, then it would lose the mythic feel. But at the same time, it should be something that would make everyone at the table go "Woooooo!" and look suitably impressed.
You can do it mister Bulmahn, you have the technology. You can make it faster, stronger, better in every way ;)
A thing could be a mythic ability that grant an automatic critical hit if the character does something suitably difficult and heroic. It could be a gunslinger leaping of a falling tower, grabbing the horn of a Greater Cyclops on the way down, swing around it's head to land on it's shoulders and fire his pistol into it's skull.
This would make most groups go yay if it succeds, so it would only be appropriate that it was rewarded. But! It wouldn't be something the gunslinger could do in every combat every day, it would be special and very situational.
Personally I would love to see things as above, abilities that reward doing something overtly dangerous in a stylishly heroic manner. Let the mythic rules be centered around rewarding inspired solutions and dramatic actions. Make it be rewards for being larger than life instead of a way to be it.
Great heroes are precisely that because they do amazing deeds that no normal mortal would even think of doing, not because they are better warriors or greater mages in general.
For something to become myth it needs to be inspiring. The hero who can outfight any man is a legend in his own time, but if he doesn't do anything more inspiring than be a great warrior his name will be forgotten in a few generations.
The man who holds up the sky, tear down a temple with his bare hands or create a suit of special armor that allows him to defeat a lindorm to save a fair maiden are mythic heroes. They transcend the rest of us, not by their power, but by their deeds.
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rocket surgeon, this thread brings up why I may not be using mythic in my game at all. Agreed, lots of shiny! very Awesome! is it mythic? Not really.
Now granted I think part of that can be handled by a good GM skinning things the right way, but honestly, I feel like it just adds a bit of power creep for the mini-maxers and lacks some of the true innovation I was looking for.
Best way I can describe it: "I thought I was going to see an "Inception/matrix marathon", and I actually saw "sucker punch" 5 times in a row instead."
... jumping up in the air, grabbing a dragon and slamming it into the ground.This. Precisely this.Well, why didn't you say so earlier, Rocket Surgeon? The direction you'd like mythic to take is much clearer now that you've pointed to an example of an ability from the playtest document that you actually like.
In any case, to me, things like absorb blow, supreme stealth, to the death, and wild arcana are easily as "mythic" as aerial assault. I don't want every mythic ability to feel like something that should be accompanied by a melodramatic, slow-motion cut-scene animation (a feeling I sometimes get from aerial assault).
True, things like Aerial Assault is the thing I would really like to get from the mythic rules, just not like that.
I'm not sure I can hit it precisely, but as I said in my second post today; myth needs to be inspiring. Dragging a dragon to the ground is awesome, dragging everything flying to the ground everytime you get the chance becomes average.
The problem with things like Aerial Assault is that if you want some bang for your buck, you HAVE to use it every time you get the chance and that will not only cheapen the move, it will also make it less and less awe-inspiring as game session follows game session.
What really bugs me is the lack of versatility in the mythic abilities, they all allow you to do a single thing. And even though you get to do it really really well, it's still just a single, clearly cut, way to use it.
If a hero is to become much more than a man, he doesn't need Aerial Assault, he need mechanics that ALSO allow him to do that, as well as many other mythic things. When myth is reduced to feats and single abilities, the mythic hero will end up in mythic situations where his mundane abilites will have to do it because he haven't picked the right feats or abilites for just that job.
I think what I'm trying to get at is that if I had my way, points wouldn't be burned for a simple bonus die, but for an automatic succes. Mythic levels would grant minor mythic abilities, rich in flavor, but not massive boosts. And the mythic part itself would be a GM controlled bonus for attempting to do interesting and worthy things.
Of course this way would require it's own feats and spells, but those should be crafted from the buttom up with the rules set as the standard. I'd like to mention some examples, but I'll need to think about it a lot more before I will be able to suggest anything constructive on that part.