So,
I am running the Shattered Star AP for my group and they have finally made it into the dungeons underneath the Lady's Light.
The problem I am running into is that out of the first four encounters, three of them are with creatures that are completely immune to magic. This is really going to torq of my Magic User player (Heck, it would torq me off).
I was thinking of just adding a SR to the monsters. What would be a decent SR to make it challenging for a 6th level mage? I'm thinking 20 or so?
Opinions?
-Erich
Is a creature that's immune to magic also immune to Create Pit?
Is a creature that's immune to magic also immune to Create Pit?
Only to those spells that allow SR
Or to any of the wall spells? Sounds like your magic user needs to be a little more creative, or there needs to be more spells as loot so some options open up for them.
My Mage player is actually a sorcerer, so any of the creative ways a Wizard has of dealing with something that is magic immune are pretty much off the table. For that matter they would be off the table for most Wizards unless they could prepare ahead of time.
Since there was zero indication available to the players that they would be facing magic immune creatures, or for that matter that such things are even possible ( remember 6th level isin't really all that high), I think that magic immune critters are a little unfair. Hence the question about a fair SR.
-Erich
Its always good for any player to have backup strategies in case their main one is negated in some way... that said, three golems (or whatever the magic-immune creatures were) in a row is pretty excessive. If you want to change it to SR, I find generally Level+11 is a good amount, as it is basically a 50% chance of something working (unless they have spell penetration or some such)
Sounds like he had 3 chances to learn a good lesson.
Tend to agree with OP about it sounding excessive. That's even laying aside my horrible feelings about the entire idea of things like 'magic immunity' - that should only exist in an exceptionally tiny number of creatures (which does not include foes like Golems).
Would you throw a monster immune to melee damage, or weapon damage at a party?
Seriously - there are so many spells that still effect spell immune monsters - including buffs that can always be used.
Spell immunity is just not too hard to deal with. Incorporal is more of a problem most of the time and actually can appear at that level as well.
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Magic that doesn't directly affect the monsters, (many buffs, or using the magic in indirect ways, which is a little more difficult in 3E/PF) as well magic that creates an effect and then the magic itself is gone (Conjuration Creation spells), as well as Spells that do not offer SR will still work.
It makes it more difficult, and depending on what type of castr and what options they have, might actually make them basically an NPC for those fights. It's kind of funny that PF made Rogues able to Sneak Attack basically anything for the same exact reason that spellcasters face when they deal with golems, but hey. :)
So you are not totally screwing over the casters, who will likely waste many of their daily resources for absolutely nothing), it might be a wise idea to warn the players before hand that they feel like an almost antimagic coming from the monsters, hopefully avoiding just ruining those players night or the game, but again, that really depends on your group.
Yea, spellcasters definitly need love as the rogue does:P
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So,
I am running the Shattered Star AP for my group and they have finally made it into the dungeons underneath the Lady's Light.
The problem I am running into is that out of the first four encounters, three of them are with creatures that are completely immune to magic. This is really going to torq of my Magic User player (Heck, it would torq me off).
I was thinking of just adding a SR to the monsters. What would be a decent SR to make it challenging for a 6th level mage? I'm thinking 20 or so?Opinions?
-Erich
There is no warning of (I assume) Golems? Undead and golems in long abandoned dungeons is standard fare. Knowledge (dungeoneering)? Discovered tome?
You could add Adamantine weapons, or a Golembane scarab to a treasure hoard as a flag.
Magic resistance slowly weakening over the years into SR seems a reasonable adjustment.
SR seems to be almost always 11 higher than the CR.
The Spell Penetration Feat and Elves give penetration bonuses
You could add Dweomers Essence (one use +5 SR) to a treasure hoard as a flag.
You could add no-SR spell items to a treasure hoard. eg Wand of create pit.
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I'm DMing the same AP right now, and at about the same part. I have a Wizard/magumbiyan-somthing-or-other and a rogue/sorc/arcane trickster in the party. Their response to "Immune to magic" was, in order:
1)knowledge check for weaknesses or alternate magical responses
2)Buff melee instead of blast enemy
3)Re-check spell list for "Spell Resistance: No" spells.
...Hell, They even get a wand of Acid arrow as treasure just before these encounters and a golembane scarab last book! The rule is "adapt or die".
On a side note: I remember the Caryatid Columns and then the Glass Golem, what's the third monster?
*edit-never mind. The spider-head-golem-things. Totally forgot about them as both spellcasters' daily powers deal force damage and the barbarian chewed through them.
Would you throw a monster immune to melee damage, or weapon damage at a party?
Yes. At least 2 swarms so far in the adventure. And at lower levels, too.
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Tend to agree with OP about it sounding excessive. That's even laying aside my horrible feelings about the entire idea of things like 'magic immunity' - that should only exist in an exceptionally tiny number of creatures (which does not include foes like Golems).
Would you throw a monster immune to melee damage, or weapon damage at a party?
Have done so frequently. It's called a 'swarm'. Perhaps you're familiar?
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My Mage player is actually a sorcerer, so any of the creative ways a Wizard has of dealing with something that is magic immune are pretty much off the table.
I'm confused as to this. Since when did Sorcerers become unable to cast Grease, Web, Create Pit, Spiked Pit, Glitterdust, Sleet Storm, or Stone Call?
Casters shouldn't get rewarded for making poor spell selections. If you never fight a monster with magic immunity with no spells able to affect it, how are you expected to learn that you need spells that ignore SR?
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The thing about encounters is that not every encounter has to be something that a particular PC can handle. Its why we have classes other than casters after all.
Golems are good encounters for the martially inclined to get to shine, as the casters are forced into a support role (which they should be anyways IMHO).
Also magic immune creatures are a good learning experience for players. Sorcerers need to be much more careful about their spells selection since its rather difficult to go back on their choices. Some conjured creatures gets around spell immunity quite nicely, as does many conjured effects.
Just read through this section last night. The door to the right of the entrance area that is covered with pictures of Sorshen trapping demons into statues and such can most definitely be used as foreshadowing (it even discusses that use with the statue on the island).
My personal opinion is that any sorcerer who is only using spells that provide SR saves has already long gimped themselves.
Buffs, walls, pits, summons... pretty much anything that doesn't do direct damage or harmful effect. This type of thing should encourage him to at least look into broadening his woefully narrow spell list.
Sean Mahoney
A general SR rating of the monster's CR +10 would probably make them a challenge without completely negating their main ability (which is probably the bulk of their CR as-is, immunity to magic).
Thanks for thr opinions, and I guess that the spell selection my player took may not be optimal for this AP. However, this player is not looking to create the optimal, power gaming character. He creates a background and then builds the character to fit the story. In this case he decided to create an elemental sorcerer that favors electrical attacks. Since I actively in courage this type of character building I do not want to penalize him for his build.
There is also the fact that in my opinion total magic immunity is a cop out. In a world so infused with magic, how can anything be totally immune to the effects of magic. Heck, from an internal logic point of view, how can a creature that is created and animated by magic be immune to it?
I think I'll just go with an SR of 10 + CR and call it good.
-Erich
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So your player's sorcerer can't do anything but offensive spells, or spells that otherwise are affected by SR? Can't even buff, or use utility spells at all?
That's not just not creating the optimal, power-gaming character, it's like making a halfling monk in leather armour with a greatsword :) Which could be cool, but if a player wants to make such a narrow, restrictive skillset because they're more into RP than power-gaming, wouldn't they be happy to roleplay being terrified of a creature they couldn't attack?
That would be a moment of real drama, I'd think. The perfect situation for a story-oriented character... Is the sorcerer egotistical, or humble? Brave or cowardly? Sly or stupid? Seeing as his usefulness is limited for a fight or two, he can concentrate on showing off his personality, his strengths and weaknesses of character.
Sounds like he wants a story driven, cool concept, but you're unwilling to make him pay the price, and so are changing the encounters so he has the experience of a powergamer... Even though he apparently doesn't want to be one.
The game is supposed to be hard sometimes. Everyone, even those boring martials, should get a chance to be the hero. At least once, let the fighter save the sorcerer. It'll be good for the story, and the memories :)
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Would you throw a monster immune to melee damage, or weapon damage at a party?
They are called Hellwasp swarms and yes, I would.
As other posters have pointed out their is more than one way to skin a cat with magic.
Would you throw a monster immune to melee damage, or weapon damage at a party?
Swarms. And yes. Only fair the mage would get his turn at not being the most useful member of the party.
Not everyone is going to be useful for every encounter. In the case of golem fights, the sorc either needs to mix up his spell list with some stuff that doesn't allow for SR, buy scrolls/wands, or spend the fight helping his fighter buddies kill the thing he can't affect.
Sounds like he wants a story driven, cool concept, but you're unwilling to make him pay the price, and so are changing the encounters so he has the experience of a powergamer... Even though he apparently doesn't want to be one.
The game is supposed to be hard sometimes. Everyone, even those boring martials, should get a chance to be the hero. At least once, let the fighter save the sorcerer. It'll be good for the story, and the memories :)
This and this.
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Besides all the other excellent points people made already (littlehewy made a very winning argument, I'd say), 3 encounters in a row is not nearly as opressive as some people here are hiting at - maybe in an urban campaign that has 1 encounter or less per two hours of serious roleplaying that could be (slightly) vexing to be ineffective for 3 combats, but in a dungeuon? you have a combat every 30 minutes or less. So the spellcaster gets to not be very important in a fight for like 2 hours of gameplay. That's not nearly as big a deal as people make of it.
And if your player is of the kind that gets vexed by even a meger two hours of play where he is not good in combat... just shift the encounters around. Replace the 2nd magic immune encounter with another encounter from across the dungeon so that there will be more space between the "golem" encounters.
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Why is it the fault of the designers if a sorcerer is a one trick pony?
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Why is it the fault of the designers if a sorcerer is a one trick pony?
And why didn't the sorcerer buy scrolls or wands of spells he didn't take to make himself rounded out? He has Prestige Points. Its not about power gaming its about being prepared. When my friends fought a red dragon and all cried about how they couldn't fly I asked them,
"What level are you?""Nine."
"And why could you not afford a single Potion of Fly?"
"Well becau.."
"Because you WEREN'T THINKING McFLY! HELLO!".
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Why is it the fault of the designers if a sorcerer is a one trick pony?And why didn't the sorcerer buy scrolls or wands of spells he didn't take to make himself rounded out? He has Prestige Points. Its not about power gaming its about being prepared. When my friends fought a red dragon and all cried about how they couldn't fly I asked them,
"What level are you?"
"Nine."
"And why could you not afford a single Potion of Fly?"
"Well becau.."
"Because you WEREN'T THINKING McFLY! HELLO!".
Or, better yet, make sure to give diverse loot to your party, making sure they have an arsenal of avilable answers to all sorts of threats. When they see that many situations require use of various items, they'll even start looking for them on their own!
So,
I am running the Shattered Star AP for my group and they have finally made it into the dungeons underneath the Lady's Light.
The problem I am running into is that out of the first four encounters, three of them are with creatures that are completely immune to magic. This is really going to torq of my Magic User player (Heck, it would torq me off).
I was thinking of just adding a SR to the monsters. What would be a decent SR to make it challenging for a 6th level mage? I'm thinking 20 or so?Opinions?
-Erich
Magic immunity is one of those BS abilities often used to shore up poor monster design (it's kind of like some outsiders having Blasphemy as an at-will ability to make them challenging to high level parties). I would allow it once (maybe) if it made sense for the story and situation but not without some kind of advanced warning (like several hours or days in advance). Your idea to just make it a slightly higher than normal SR is excellent and is exactly how I would go too.
I have no problem with using stuff like swarms and the like however as they have built in vulnerabilities and are generally pretty weak. Magic immunity is just so outside the norm especially when you consider there is already a Spell Resistance mechanic (I would propose a feat or ability to allow a +X (5? 3?) to SR to represent those creatures particularly resistant to magic).
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Magic immunity is one of those BS abilities often used to shore up poor monster design (it's kind of like some outsiders having Blasphemy as an at-will ability to make them challenging to high level parties).So,
I am running the Shattered Star AP for my group and they have finally made it into the dungeons underneath the Lady's Light.
The problem I am running into is that out of the first four encounters, three of them are with creatures that are completely immune to magic. This is really going to torq of my Magic User player (Heck, it would torq me off).
I was thinking of just adding a SR to the monsters. What would be a decent SR to make it challenging for a 6th level mage? I'm thinking 20 or so?Opinions?
-Erich
I could NOT disagree more. I LOVE the fact that, as awesome and useful as magic is, there are things out there - not just golems, but also Will-o-Wisps, and some other things - that magic for all its benefits simply does not function against. Just as I love the fact that a fighter without a magic weapon can't hold his own against an incorporeal creature and one without some way to get AoE damage (alchemical items, blaster spellcaster friend, etc.) can't fight a swarm. Because finding out there's something you can't beat on your own, something your tricks just don't work on, is part of the challenge of the game. It's why adventurers travel in parties - because when one is stumped on a challenge, someone else in the group might have the solution, or be able to assist. It's a cooperative game. Challenges like this force the group to work together, to give another person a moment in the spotlight, rather than allowing any one character to stomp through the entire game.
Magic Immunity IS SR. It functions exactly the same as SR, is bypassed in the same methods, except that it has no "top" to it. It just goes up infinitely. You can still go around it by using spells that ignore SR or straight-up hitting it with pointy/stabby/blunt objects. These creatures are hardly indestructible. They simply force the party to seek alternate methods.
And yes, these creatures DO have weaknesses. Most Golems have a section that describes how they interact with a small set of spells, usually gaining a small buff or debuff when hit by a particular vulnerability. And guess what? Constructs are covered under Knowledge Arcana! Meaning any mage who's put his skill points in the second-most-recommended skill for his class (only behind Spellcraft!) should be able to EASILY make the check to know 1.) This thing is immune to magic that allows SR, and 2.) This thing has a few vulnerabilities I can exploit!
Or, better yet, make sure to give diverse loot to your party, making sure they have an arsenal of available answers to all sorts of threats. When they see that many situations require use of various items, they'll even start looking for them on their own!Why is it the fault of the designers if a sorcerer is a one trick pony?And why didn't the sorcerer buy scrolls or wands of spells he didn't take to make himself rounded out? He has Prestige Points. Its not about power gaming its about being prepared. When my friends fought a red dragon and all cried about how they couldn't fly I asked them,
"What level are you?"
"Nine."
"And why could you not afford a single Potion of Fly?"
"Well becau.."
"Because you WEREN'T THINKING McFLY! HELLO!".
This is good for new to intermediate players for sure but when you've played for ten years+ and you make rookie mistakes and don't use the most versatile loot of all (gold) to full effect you're doing it wrong imho. (BTW I am not the GM of above encounter encase that was what people were thinking. Just a outside observer pointing out that his friends noobed it up.)
I constantly badger my Shattered Star party members with being prepared. In fact I made them get Potions of Fly just this session after fighting at the Hanging Manse. And heavily suggested Clear Spindle Ioun stones after a very bad episode with three succubi (GM replaced the monsters in the top floor "optional room" in the Lady's Light).
Sometimes the right answer is simply to let them fail. If they catch on that they're unprepared to deal with this thing they, as mentioned above, learn the valuable lesson that retreat is (usually) always an option regardless of level.
My group recently encountered an unending stream of incorporeal undead that drained our Strength. We had no magical weapons and a Druid as our only spellcaster. Fortunately our Monk had just become level 4 and a fighter had brought two vials of holy water, and we eventually figured out that we could simply avoid them, but that fight was an incredibly valuable lesson to us. You simply need to think ahead and prepare. And we should have known that we could encounter a variety of unusual magical, undead and/or devilish beasties here. (How many of our group have silver weapons? Very few, I fear.)
My point is: the best and most fun way to learn these lessons is to experience what happens if you don't prepare. It's the initial loss that makes the eventual win that much greater.
So my vote is definitely for keeping the magical immunity. Let them be badly prepared, let them suffer because of it, let them curse, but that way they will also learn. Later, they'll think back to that awful fight where they were so badly prepared. By having them suffer the consequences of their bad preparation, they will remember that lesson much better than they ever would if you toned everything down for them.
Foreshadowing is good of course. But don't overdo it. Sometimes they just don't pick up on the clues until it's too late. Teach them to pick on those clues early on by not repeating them a dozen times. My group should have known that we could have known that we could have been up against otherworldly nasties, even though nobody told us. I recognize now that we should easily have been that smart, but we weren't. Our mistake. Next time, we'll be prepared.
(Or will we? I remember several more encounters of us facing DR/silver without any silver weapons, and yet most PCs are still not carrying weapons made every possible exotic material. Maybe we're slow learners, but that just means we need more lessons.)
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You don't necessarily need a silver weapon to beat a creature with DR/Silver, thejeff. Conan could beat it down with just his trusty broadsword simply by virtue of putting out enough damage that it didn't matter that it was reduced. Not to mention, if you're enchanting your sword the way you should be, it'll overcome most DR as you level up anyway. Then there's the Paladin, the Clustered Shots feat--honestly DR's really not much of a thing in Pathfinder, so 'lots of different exotic materials' aren't really a thing. Carrying around a backup weapon or two, though, that's just good sense. And a caster just has no excuse.
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Hi,
Just some last comments here and I'll call this done as far as I'm concerned.
First of all.. Thank you very much to everyone who responded. Even if I didn't agree with you about how you would handle the issue with your own campaigns, I sincerely do appreciate the comments.
I think that I am just going to go over the critters that are imune to magic and give them a high SR. Maybe 10 or 11 plus CR or something similar. That will make the fight tough but not make the sorcerer completely useless.
And as a final thought, many of the posts seemed to be taking the point of view that I need to "Teach my players a lesson". I submit to the board that we as GMs should not be in the business of teaching our players lessons. I feel we should be in the business of providing challenging (not overwhelming) adventures for our players and making things fun for them.
Peace
-Erich
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Some of us have players that enjoy those kind of challenges and don't like being given a free out when they go up against something they aren't prepared or equipped to beat.
To each their own.
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Hi,
Just some last comments here and I'll call this done as far as I'm concerned.First of all.. Thank you very much to everyone who responded. Even if I didn't agree with you about how you would handle the issue with your own campaigns, I sincerely do appreciate the comments.
I think that I am just going to go over the critters that are imune to magic and give them a high SR. Maybe 10 or 11 plus CR or something similar. That will make the fight tough but not make the sorcerer completely useless.
And as a final thought, many of the posts seemed to be taking the point of view that I need to "Teach my players a lesson". I submit to the board that we as GMs should not be in the business of teaching our players lessons. I feel we should be in the business of providing challenging (not overwhelming) adventures for our players and making things fun for them.
Peace
-Erich
oh no! someone menaged to be polite and reasonable in an internet forum while not agreeing with other people! that probably means the world would end in like, 16 days...
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Hi,
Just some last comments here and I'll call this done as far as I'm concerned.First of all.. Thank you very much to everyone who responded. Even if I didn't agree with you about how you would handle the issue with your own campaigns, I sincerely do appreciate the comments.
I think that I am just going to go over the critters that are imune to magic and give them a high SR. Maybe 10 or 11 plus CR or something similar. That will make the fight tough but not make the sorcerer completely useless.
And as a final thought, many of the posts seemed to be taking the point of view that I need to "Teach my players a lesson". I submit to the board that we as GMs should not be in the business of teaching our players lessons. I feel we should be in the business of providing challenging (not overwhelming) adventures for our players and making things fun for them.
Peace
-Erich
Well, to each their own. I guess you know your players best.
Just to clarify, the point of my statements was not to suggest "larnin'" your player anything. To me, it sounded like your player was a competent gamer that had made a deliberate decision not to optimise, for the challenge of it and for the RPing opportunities. Assuming that is the case, I suggested that you may be robbing him of the experience he was actually chasing.
But maybe I was wrong, and he's just not that into system mastery in general, but still wants to feel powerful. Or wants challenges, but you know that he can't emotionally deal with them. Or whatever. Like I said, I'm sure you know your players best.
At my table, I know if someone made that kind of PC they'd actually want those kind of situations. I currently have a very skilful player in my home game (I'd call him a powergamer) that has deliberately made an elementalist 4/fighter 4 that is so unoptimised it's not funny. He's done this on purpose, because he wants to experience being less effective than the rest of the party (something he hasn't felt for a while!), and to have to think really hard about his combat options. It's great for the game - we all love Captain Pippo, as much as we smirk and shake our heads every time his hp go to single figures :)
I also honestly think you're missing an opportunity for interesting story/character interaction moments. "Remember that time when Bob's sorcerer couldn't affect that golem with any spells, so instead he [insert cool, creative thing that Bob's character did that wasn't casting spells]? That was really cool..."
So, yeah, that's here I was coming from.
Could I suggest, maybe privately speak to the sorcerer's player in general terms about the encounters, and ask whether he'd be cool with magic-immune enemies, or whether that'd tick him off and he'd think it fairer/more fun if the had high SR instead? You don't have to give the game away or spoil any surprises - but you might be surprised with his response...
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OTOH, that's one of the things I don't like about 3.5/PF. The need to carry a stack of weapons of different exotic materials and special properties and splash weapons for every possible threat.
I get that it's part of the game now and given that it makes sense to be prepared, but it just doesn't feel like the source material to me. Conan doesn't head out to rob the ancient tomb with a cold iron mace and a silver dagger and a couple flasks of holy water and some acid, etc, etc. He brings his trusty broadsword.Improvised weapons are part of the genre. Or improvised ways to take out the otherwise invulnerable creature. Even bringing specific weapons if you're hunting specific creatures, but always traveling around festooned with all the gear? Not really.
There's the trope of the character who always has the right piece of gear, but that's a slightly different thing and it isn't everyone.
To be fair though conan isn't actively in the business of hunting down and killing supernatural creatures for fun and profit. Most of Conan's enemies are quite human and he usually runs into the supernatural ones by complete accident and has to wing it with what's around. Thing is that most D&D/Pathfinder games aren't like that, most games have you taking on exotic beasties with great frequency instead of just your ordinary man. I think the better comparison is to stories like supernatural or van helsing from dracula, these guys are constantly dealing with a menagerie of horrors and so must be prepared for whatever could come their way as a necessity. If you want a game where you have less of a need for the huge diversity of weapons then you would want to run a more focused or humanoid centric game like a werewolf hunter game or an orc warband focused adventure where the party either has to only deal with one pretty consistent type of resistance or not much of one at all.
The other option is to enforce the encumbrance rules more harshly and maybe reduce or remove some of the extra dimensional space items for hauling. That way you can get things like caravans, wagons, mules, and retainers who haul everything to the dungeon and keep track of your stuff but don't actually travel in with you. Gives you a bit more weight in the world, get a bit of that scarcity you want, and make the party feel a little bit bigger in the world since hell they would have a traveling caravan of retainers with them.
Mostly it was carrying the highest "plus" weapon you found/looted. If you were in Robinloft, the Gawds help you if the critters required gold weapons to harm...
Could I suggest, maybe privately speak to the sorcerer's player in general terms about the encounters, and ask whether he'd be cool with magic-immune enemies, or whether that'd tick him off and he'd think it fairer/more fun if the had high SR instead? You don't have to give the game away or spoil any surprises - but you might be surprised with his response...
Ya know, that's a really good idea.
I'll sit down with him (or more likely send an email ) , and see what he thinks.Part of the problem I could be running into is that I am bringing the group over from 4th ed and some things just aren't lining up. Such as monsters totally imune to magic, I'm not sure they existed in 4th ed.
-Erich
traveling with a group of retainers was actually standard fare in 1E, IIRC, the amounts of gold found always seemed to be way more than they are these days
As I recall, gold was directly tied to XP for 1st (and maybe 2nd) edition. The DMG recommended 1xp per gp of treasure.
Now that that is no longer the case it's not required to haul thousands of gold pieces out of a dungeon.
-Erich
Yea I forgot about that aspect, but I kinda still liked the whole idea of porters and tenders and other hoards of adventuring attendants you would acquire, only to be scared to the four winds by a over flying dragon, good fun!
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Hirelings had many uses ... arrow fodder ... carriers of every copper piece worth of loot ... emergency self-propelled field rations ... test subjects for unidentified magic items ...