Hey there everyone, this is my first post on the paizo forums, and I'm still fairly new to Pathfinder (though I've been playing D&D and other RPG's since the mid 80's).
I need a little advice. Our group has recently decided to jump the D&D ship and climb aboard Pathfinder full-force. I'm all for it, but even though the system is extremely similar, leaving 3.5 means leaving behind a lot of things that haven't made it into PF, and we tend to be a group who restricts ourselves to "only official materials" -- meaning those published by the game designer (Paizo, in this case)-- and the occasional home-brew rule/spell/feat/PrC.
So, the campaign we're about to start is oriented toward a "classic/gothic horror" style -- zombies, vampires, werewolves... that sort of deal -- with a side of dark, political intrigue. I decided to play an Inquisitor. The dark weapon that protects the innocent, hunts down aberrations, brings heretics and heathens to justice, and generally does all of the seedy, dirty deeds that are unfortunately necessary, for the good of the light, as it were.
We're starting at 1st level. This is not a PFS game. The only homebrew element we're carrying over from our 3/3.5e games is our homebrew religions. My character worships a NG deity whose favored weapon is the Bastard Sword, and her portfolio includes the Community, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Protection, Sun and Travel domains, and the Love, Family, Honor, Restoration and Exploration sub-domains. At this point, this is of little importance as I'm considering being a Sin Eater, but if I change my mind on that, then it could be valuable information.
My character will be a Drow Noble, by the Bestiary 1 rules. I did a LOT of research on this race option after my initial selection, presented my group with all the information I could gather (such as opinions on it being OP, alternate options available in other books, such as Advance Races, etc) and they all told me to go ahead with the RAW in the Bestiary 1. I'm not prone to "munchkining", so they aren't worried about this decision/selection.
PLEASE NOTE: I'm not all about having an "optimal" build. I like characters who have, ahem, character! I like flavor. My concept is pretty much a Monster Hunter... for lack of a better example, something like Van Helsing (though I've never actually seen the movie *gasp*). He would be a "loner" slayer who just happens to find himself in a group of misfit heroes/adventurers. As such, he tends to be the type who is very self-sufficient, and does not care for relying on others (not distrustful, just the way he likes to roll). I know that optimally I should choose a style of combat to go with, but again, I'm not here to "optimize". I want a good BALANCED build. Yes, very much striker/damage-oriented, but an Inquisitor who is decent at range AND in melee (though not the "best" at either). Also, against popular consensus of these here internets, I want to dual-wield. That's what I want. I gave up on dual-wielding repeating crossbows (which is what I REALLY wanted), but will not give up on dual-wielding in melee. Also, my group has okayed the use of the Wild Cohort feat from the WotC website, in conjunction with the Boon Companion feat, so I'm strongly considering picking those up at some point down the road... just food for thought.
Also, I took the Rich Parents trait (justifying that I'm a Drow "NOBLE"), so that gives me an initial stipend of 900gp to work with.
So, here's my character so far (parenthetical attributes represent my dice rolls... I rolled VERY well):
Inquisitor - 1 ; Align - NG ; Race - Drow Noble
STR - 15/+2
DEX - 20/+5 (16)
CON - 15/+2 (17)
INT - 20/+5 (18)
WIS - 19/+4 (17)
CHA - 14/+2 (12)
HP - 10 ; AC - 18 (Studded Leather + DEX mod... any other option was lower AC)
Ranked Skills: (12 total - spent my favored class option on extra skill)
Craft - Alchemy, Disable Device, Handle Animal, Intimidate, K - Dung., K - Nature, K - Planes, K - Religion, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival.
Equipment (thus far):
Studded Leather Armour, Repeating Heavy Crossbow, paired Battle Aspergillum, Wooden Stakes (a bandoleer of 5, plus 5 in my pack), paired Cestus, paired Sickles, paired Rapiers (a weapon for every occasion is the mentality here), light warhorse, military saddle, saddlebags, other miscellaneous mundane gear, masterwork manacles, thieves' tools, silver holy symbol, and flasks.
Racial Abilities:
Immune to Sleep effects, +2 vs Enchantment Spells, +2 Perception, Spell Resistance 11 + Character Level, Darkvision 120', Poison Use, proficient in hand crossbow, rapier and shortsword. At Will spell-like abilities: Dancing Lights, Deeper Darkness, Faerie Fire, Feather Fall and Levitate. Constant ability: Detect Magic. Once per Day spell-like abilities: Divine Favor, Dispel Magic and Suggestion.
Spells:
Orisons - Create Water, Brand, Disrupt Undead, Acid Splash
1st Level - Wrath, Bless Water (we house ruled that it only costs 1 sp to make a vial of Holy Water -- we just couldn't justify fitting 5 lbs of silver into one vial of water, LOL -- though I was suggesting 5 gp / 1 lb of silver, and the other 20 gp cost of buying a vial of holy water from a church went toward repairs, helping the community, etc.)
Feat:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
So, here's where I need help. I'm not sure what would be a decent combination of feats to take over the course of 20 levels which would allow me to be fairly balanced between melee and ranged combat. Here's what I came up with based on a 20 level/10 feat build. These are in no particular order:
* Point Blank Shot - +1 to hit/dmg w/in 30'.
* Precise Shot - Fire into melee with no penalties.
* Rapid Shot - Fire an additional shot per round at BAB, all shots at -2 to hit. (It's a Repeating Crossbow - I'm aware this is far from optimal. This is a flavor choice.)
* Improved Two-Weapon Fighting - Second attack with off-hand.
* Vital Strike - Additional weapon die of damage. Standard Action.
* Improved Vital Strike - Two additional dice. Standard Action.
* Focused Shot - Add INT bonus to bow/crossbow damage.
* Wild Cohort - Gain an animal ally similar to a ranger's companion.
* Boon Companion - Add levels to companion (in this case, cohort.)
I'm not sure if those are decent choices or not, nor what order I should select them in as I advance. The following feats were on my list of "desirable", but didn't make the cut:
* Deadly Aim - Power attack for ranged weapons
* Power Attack - -1 to hit for +2 damage for every 4 BAB.
* Weapon Finesse - Use DEX bonus to hit with finesse weapons.
* Rapid Reload - Decrease reload time with crossbows.
* Crossbow Mastery - Reloading is a free action; does not incur Attacks of Opportunity.
* Greater Two-Weapon Fighting - Third attack with off-hand.
* Double Bane - Apply Bane effect to two weapons. Each round that Bane is on two weapons counts as two rounds worth of Bane useage.
* Extend Bane - Add WIS bonus to number of rounds/day Bane can be used.
* Extra Bane - Add 3 rounds to number of rounds/day Bane can be used.
And these last ones were considered, but at the bottom of my barrel:
* Eschew Material Components - Self-Explanatory.
* Intimidating Prowess - Add both STR and CHA bonuses to Intimidate.
* Double Slice - Perform a rend with both weapons if they both hit.
So, this is what I'm going off of. I want a balanced build designed around a self-preservation/lone hunter concept. Don't worry about Teamwork Feats, I've seen plenty of good advice on those.
I like the idea of a Wild Cohort, because that extends my solo survival ability. I like the idea of Sin Eater... mostly because it sounded wicked, and I wanted my character to have a bit of a macabre feel to him (though it would be a purely symbolic act, with an effect that looked similar to a soul-stealing concept). Neither of these options is set in stone, but I'm favorable toward them. Two-Weapon Fighting is staying. I'm fighting at range with a Heavy Repeating Crossbow for flavor, and that's staying. I prefer not to take Weapon Focus, because I don't want to be tied down to any one trade tool.
Using this as a guideline, I'm open to suggestions.
...
Additionally, I've recently introduced a new player to gaming (and a female at that... can never get enough of them among our ranks!) She has chosen to play a Gnome Witch (so I won't be going "Witch Hunter" with my Inquisitor anytime soon, LOL, though I did like the concept). This is her character. Any suggestions would be helpful, as this class is also completely new to me:
Witch - 1 ; Align - N ; Race - Gnome
STR - 10/+0 (12)
DEX - 15/+2
CON - 17/+3 (15)
INT - 17/+3
WIS - 14/+2
CHA - 15/+2 (13)
HP - 9 ; AC 13 (no armor. +2 for DEX, +1 for size)
Ranked Skills:
Craft - Alchemy, Heal, Intimidate, K - Nature, K - Religion
(Have not decided whether to spend the favored class bonus on HP or an extra skill. Suggestion?)
Equipment:
Light Crossbow, Long Spear, Dagger, Spell Component Pouch, miscellaneous mundane items.
Racial Abilities:
Low-light vision, +1 DC w/ Illusions, +4 AC vs Giants, 20' movement, +1 to hit reptilian and goblinoid humanoid subtypes, +2 Perception, +2 Craft or Profession (Alchemy, in this case). Once per Day spell-like abilities: Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation and Speak with Animals.
Spells:
1st Level - Beguiling Gift, Identify, Summon Monster I, Mage Armor, Cure Light Wounds, and Burning Hands.
Feat:
1) Extra Hex (Cauldron)
1) Brew Potion (from Extra Hex - Cauldron)
Hexes:
* Evil Eye - Penalize target's AC, ability checks, attack rolls, OR skill checks.
* Cauldron (from Feat) - Gain Brew Potion as a bonus Feat, and a +4 Insight bonus on Craft (Alchemy) skill checks.
As she is completely new to the game, I would like to help her make this witch a viable, useful member of the group. Any suggestions for her advancement, or changes we might wish to make to her character before play begins?
Sorry for the long post. Any suggestions will be much appreciated! :)
I'd say Double Bane is 100% worth it.
I myself am in the process of building an Undead slaying Inquisitor, and it seems nice. No ranged option, but with my two-hander (Earthbreaker hammer because lulz) I deal an average of 124 DPR (at level 10) against Undead and other evil beasties, so it seems like this type of build has great potential for badassery.
But that's off track. Double Bane would essentially add 4d6 to your damage output if you full attack with your TWF. Depending on whether your Wis is higher than +3 mod or not, Extended Bane or Extra Bane might be the better option, I like them as nice, generally useful Feats. Some may disagree, I have no idea.
Instant Judgement seems like a good Feat to take, if you're in desperate need of judgin'.
Sin Eater archetype honestly seems pretty bad. I don't really like any of the Inquisitor archetypes though, so it may just be me.
My input, for what it's worth.
* Wild Cohort - Gain an animal ally similar to a ranger's companion.
* Boon Companion - Add levels to companion (in this case, cohort.)
Where is Wild Cohort from, what does it do, and does Boon Companion work with it?
* Vital Strike - Additional weapon die of damage. Standard Action.
* Improved Vital Strike - Two additional dice. Standard Action.
So you gain: Battle Aspergillum 1d6, Wooden Stake 1d4, Cestus 1d4, Sickle 1d6, Rapier 1d6. I assume the idea was either to shoot people, then move+vital strike when they come near, or to vital strike while moving between full-attacking positions? I'm not sure the occasional d6 or two is worth the feat investment.
Also, paired Rapiers is a bad idea since you take an extra -2 penalty to both weapons for not having a light off-hand weapon.
Rynjin:
Thanks for the input. I really do like the Double Bane + Extended Bane/Extra Bane combo. I was just trying to figure out how to get them without gimping my two-weapon fighting style OR my ranged options. Instant Judgement just didn't strike me as necessary, but it was somewhat tempting. And the Sin Eater... well, I think all the archetypes were sub-par compared to the core Inquisitor, but I liked the flavor of it. Still up in the air on it, though. LOL!
Bearded Ben:
Wild Cohort is off of the Wizards of the Coast website. "Animal companions for any character." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a
TECHNICALLY the Boon Companion feat would not work with Wild Cohort, per RAW, as a Wild Cohort is not TECHNICALLY an "Animal Companion", but it's so close that our group is allowing it.
The idea of the Vital Strike feats was actually more focused on my Repeating Heavy Crossbow as sort of a sniper shot and move option. I'm not set on it, but I liked it for mobility purposes. An extra one or two d10 from a single shot, then move...
On the paired Rapiers... you are absolutely right. Huge oversight on my part. I always lumped Rapier in with Light Weapons due to Weapon Finesse, but it never occurred to me that it was actually not a light weapon and would thusly incur a -2 penalty on my attacks. OOPS! Thanks for catching that for me.
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Sounds like you are on the right track for your Inqusitor. I really enjoy mine in PFS play. I built mine to be a social one with spell choice and skill choice etc. I always believe in making a theme and story for the character and then the stats and everything else will follow a lot easier for you as you will know your character more that way. As far as your friend playing the witch she needs to decide what theme she wants to play and then use the stats to fill that out. Sounds like she is trying to make a secondary healer with some party support abilities as well. I would go with the extra skill rank if she isn't planning on getting anywhere near combat, a 17 con will cancel out the loss of the one point of health. As for party cohesion and utility make a good backstory and that will fall into place if you RP the character true to form.
Matt
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The witch looks great. My suggestions for advancement: Pick up the Sleep Hex as soon as possible. It's really useful to her character. After that, she should get the Ability Focus (Hex) feat. It'll add +2 to the DC of her hexes, essentially giving her an additional +4 Int for determining her saving throw. Well worth a feat. After that, I've always been partial to the Cackle, Misfortune, and Fortune hexes, though Scar works well with Healing.
Rapid Reload is really nice for you. It would reduce the time required to reload your crossbow to a move action, allowing you to reload and fire in the same round. This is especially important if you're going to use Rapid Shot, since you'll be running out of bolts more quickly.
On another note, the Manyshot feat might also interest you. It allows you to fire two bolts with your first attack and deal damage for both if it hits. Basically, with Rapid Shot and Manyshot, you will turn into a gatling gun (really nice with Judgment).
Focused Shot seems like a bad feat choice on the other hand. And I don't mean "not optimal", I mean "you won't use it." You say that, for flavor, you want to unload a bunch of bolts in one round from a distance, and that's cool, but Focused Shot requires you to fire a single bolt as a standard action, removing your ability to use Rapid Shot or Manyshot (they both require a full-round attack). Now, if you took Rapid Reload, then Focused Shot would apply to the single attack you made that round after reloading, but...
Oh wow, never mind. I forgot about Crossbow Mastery. Man, I would almost suggest you dip just one level of fighter for the bonus feat (and the extra BAB) so you could pick them both up. If you're going to be using a Heavy Repeating Crossbow and trying to fire it like a bow, Crossbow Mastery is almost essential. You'll find in gameplay that eating up a full-round action to reload is going to get really tiring after a while. (And honestly, it's not fair that you have to spend two feats to get it to work for you like a bow)
Matt Clay:
Thanks for the kind words. Our group is definitely one with a high role-play focus, so characters based on good concepts and high role-play value tend to go much further with us than min-maxed meat grinders. LOL! Thanks for the advice on the Witch. I helped her design the character based on her race/class selection, but as I'm unfamiliar with the class I had to do a little guess work.
NeoSeraphi:
Will definitely take your advice into account regarding my friend's Witch as we advance. Thanks. I forgot to mention that she chose Monkey as her familiar of choice. Not sure if that makes any difference on anything, but she figured a creature that functions like a little person would be the most useful... plus she thinks monkeys are cute. LOL!
And thank you for pointing out that glaring issue with Focused Shot. That, as well as the "within 30'" limitations I completely overlooked when I was coming down to my final options. I was looking for a way to gain a stat bonus (DEX, INT or WIS) to my damage output with a crossbow WITHOUT having to rely on enchantments. Looks like that's a no-go. Oh well! :P
Rapid Reload was a high consideration, as well as it's follow-up feat Crossbow mastery, but I was having a really hard time sacrificing two feats to get the equivalent of what a regular bow user can do with NO feats. Crossbows and Firearms users really get a poor deal.
As far as the Manyshot feat is concerned... The feat specifically refers to BOWS, with no mention of crossbows. Never mind the fact that I can not logically conceive of a way to fire two crossbow bolts at one time, especially with a repeating crossbow that only feeds one bolt at a time. Perhaps if it was some kind of repeating double-crossbow, with two separate bolt clips (which would either have to have a spring-loaded feed, or both load from the top... gets really convoluted when you start going that route), I just can't see firing two bolts simultaneously. And if it were some sort of repeating double-crossbow, it would probably require an exotic weapon proficiency feat, and Manyshot would not apply as it would fire two bolts every time the weapon was fired.
Now, here's a niggling issue I have with the D&D/Pathfinder repeating crossbows. They only hold 5 bolts in the "clip". Historically, a repeating crossbow held 10-15 bolts. What gives? It's already a sub-par weapon by D20 standards just for being a crossbow, LOL! Why hinder it any more!? The things cost 250gp for a light, 400gp for a heavy, and 800gp for a hand variety, AND the ammunition is inherently more expensive because of the delivery method (the "clip"). Why not just say it's 2gp for a 10 round clip, rather than 1gp for 5 rounds? Bah! Oh well.
Now, my "flavor" for the character was to mostly use the crossbow for single-shot sniping with mobility, but the ability to stop and unload is a bonus! ORIGINALLY my concept was to fire a flurry of bolts down range using two-weapon fighting and two repeating light crossbows. However, when I read that firing a light crossbow with one hand incurs an inherent -2 penalty to hit ON TOP OF the -2 penalty for two-weapon fighing, and no real conceivable method of firing multiple shots per round with both crossbows... well, that kinda sunk my original concept. I might have been able to live with the additional attack penalty, but I just could not find any concrete method of firing multiple bolts from two repeaters without having a third (and possibly a fourth) arm! And after seeing a repeating crossbow in action, that only made it that much more difficult to fathom without the aid of some complicated (and likely custom designed) spell that performed the "cocking" action for me. Ho hum. :P
...
So far I have suggestions to drop Focused Shot (DONE!), and add Rapid Reload, possibly Crossbow Mastery, and potentially Double Bane and Extra/Extended Bane feats to my list. If I go with any of these options, what should I drop? Remember that I don't want to hang myself in melee by going to a total ranged focus, but I don't want to do the reverse, either. I could drop the Wild Cohort + Boon Companion combo, but those were just fun feats that made my Inquisitor a little more "self" sufficient, should he need to be.
Thanks for all your input everyone. The help is MUCH appreciated!
My suggestions for advancement: Pick up the Sleep Hex as soon as possible. It's really useful to her character. After that, she should get the Ability Focus (Hex) feat. It'll add +2 to the DC of her hexes, essentially giving her an additional +4 Int for determining her saving throw.
I agree that Slumber is a really great hex but sadly Ability Focus would have to be taken separately for each hex. Taking the feat once would grant +2 to the DC of one hex, chosen when the feat is taken. Each hex is a separate spell-like ability (note that some of them are Supernatural and some are Extraordinary.)
This probably won't help you, but since you're looking at a Gothic Horror game, you might consider looking at Rite Publishing's Kaidan campaign setting (Japanese horror). It's a unique 'gothic' look at feudal Japan; Kaidan means 'ghost story' in Japanese.
There are currently 5 published adventures (1 is free, Frozen Wind), and 3 of them come as an intro trilogy, Curse of the Golden Spear.
3 race guides: In the Company of Kappa, In the Company of Henge, and In the Company of Tengu - each with multiple archetypes, feats, a racial paragon class, background fluff and more.
2 faction guides: Way of the Yakuza and Way of the Samurai.
1 collection of haunts: #30 Haunts for Kaidan.
Plus there's the Inquisitor (metsuki archetype) and Witch (mahou tsukai archetype) + (kitsune-tsukai)
The Campaign Guidebooks will be released in Oct 2013, following a successful Kickstarter project. Japanese horror is an untapped genre, one that Kaidan intends to dominate! We will be releasing a mapped location with pre-built encounter product called Haiku of Horror, sometime early next year.
Plus there's Black Friday sales for all these products on the Paizo store!
Oh, and for the Witch, Misfortune is the ball-bustingliest Hex on the list IMO.
Force an enemy to re-roll a save and take the worst result? Yes please.
I have been aching to try an inquisitor but i keep backing away from it. I haven't figured out if at higher level if they are able to keep up with the traditional classes. I have thought to combine ranger with inquisitor but i haven't fully decided on level mprogression with that either. I am extremely excited about the idea of monster hunter with this possible build...any thoughts? I have an opportunity to make one at 10th due to the fact of my previous character (elf wizard) being turned into a hedgehog ( it's a long story)...thx
Damon Griffin:
Thanks for the heads-up on that feat. Good to know. Does kind of water down the usefulness when it can only affect one hex. This does bring the question to mind though. Is the ability to cast hexes the actual ability, and each hex is like a spell fueled by your hex power, or is each hex it's own ability? Hmmm... Is there a clear way to determine this, or has the Ability Focus (Hex) feat issue been officially addressed by Paizo?
gamer-printer:
Actually, none of that helps in any way. LOL! We don't use third-party materials. We will occasionally dip into materials from D&D published by Wizards of the Coast when there is no alternative option available from Paizo, but we are reluctant to step outside of "official published materials". Anything that Paizo puts on their website for Pathfinder qualifies as "official published materials". We may glance at third-party materials, but we would be reluctant to use it, and would use a heavy amount of scrutiny to determine if we felt it was balanced with the rest of the game (or if it would be "game breaking".)
I understand that a lot of third-party materials are sold and advertised on Paizo's website, but we are very fickle with things that don't come directly from the game publisher.
No problem, but know that many 3PPs including myself, actually freelance for Paizo - so plenty of official Core material are created by the same people making 3PP stuff. I wrote some of the gazetteer for the City of Kasai, capital of Minkai for Jade Regent #6 as well as having designed the cartography for Kasai itself - I'm listed as one of the authors (Michael Tumey).
Also, it's not like the days of d20 glut, most PF 3PP creates very balanced and non-over-powered mechanics. So being reluctant on your part is deliberately negating tons of great, balanced material. I'd go as far as saying that many 3PP, like Rite Publishing and Super Genius Games creates PF material that is more balanced than what Paizo releases. You are very likely to NOT find game-breaking material if you look at PF 3PPs. Plus read the reviews - it will let you know if something breaks the game or not.
I think there is lingering feelings from the 'junk' created during 3x with the d20 glut. PF 3PP is nothing like those days.
gamer-printer:
I hope you don't think I was discrediting you OR the materials. Far from. But we have been gaming a LONG time, too, and have seen many broken spells/feats/classes come out of third-party products, so we are... reluctant... to use them.
That fact aside, this isn't an Asian-themed game, so that might get in the way too. More of a traditional "Dracula/Frankenstein/Werewolf" horror, but in a pre-industrial world. Gun powder weapons are an option, but rare (and who would want to use them in this game, anyway!? LOL!)
Rynjin:
LMAO! Will keep an eye out for that!
Dorian 'Grey':
I considered the Inquisitor/Ranger combo, as well. But some of the abilities are redundant, and from what I've read, you lose A LOT from the Inquisitor if you do more than a 2 level dip. By my reading, I would say more than a 4 level dip would be too much. If we're talking about a game that may go to level 20, 16 levels of Inquisitor gives you full access to their spells, as well as most of their best abilities, though you lose their "Death Attack" equivalent (I believe).
I think you could make a pretty decent monster hunter using just the Ranger, and they get access to a free buddy (enhance with Boon Companion, to be certain), an assortment of circumstantially useful spells, high BAB, high skills, and a few free feats (weapon styles).
If you want to dip into Inquisitor (and I highly recommend against this), you either go 1 level for judgement, or you go 5 levels for Bane. If you go Inquisitor, I think you're best sticking with it most of the way. If you want an optimal build, choose to focus on either ranged combat with a composite longbow, or melee combat with a two-handed weapon. My build is going to be FAR from optimal. LOL!
So, your first Monster Hunter question should be this: Am I a holy man, or am I just a dude with a grudge against creatures? Even though the ranger's spells are technically divine in nature, I don't really consider them to be a "holy" class.
Basically, dipping either way, Ranger OR Inquisitor, is going to hamstring your spellcasting ability, as well as some of your high-end powers. But it's your character, make what you think you'll enjoy.
If I had my heart set on a Inquisitor/Ranger character, starting at level 10, I would go with Inquisitor 6 / Ranger 4, and not dip any more into Ranger. I would probably also try to get one of those traits that lets you have more than one favored class, because that's an extra 4 points to be split between hit points and skill points (I prefer skill points, myself).
You will end up with one redundant quality (unless you choose an alternate ranger type): Track. Both classes get it. If you don't want redundancy, look into some of the alternate class options. That's my advice. I can't give any more advice as I don't know if you want to be ranged, melee, or what have you.
That fact aside, this isn't an Asian-themed game, so that might get in the way too. More of a traditional "Dracula/Frankenstein/Werewolf" horror, but in a pre-industrial world. Gun powder weapons are an option, but rare (and who would want to use them in this game, anyway!? LOL!)
I understood, that's why I qualified my first post saying, Kaidan would most likely not fit your campaign goals. I was defending PF 3PP's in general, and not specifically what I create.
I would be surprised if you were looking for Asian horror, since as an RPG genre, that never existed before the creation of Kaidan (which happens to include "vampires/flesh golems/lycanthropes" too.)
I've been playing since 1977, I've only been designing published material for about 5 years now.
Sleep is the most useful Hex in the game in my experience. All you have to do is snap your fingers to use it (only somatic component, no verbal) and it can potentially eliminate a threat before combat starts. Fortune/Misfortune are pretty nice, too. There was a time in my group where we were trying to get a mercenary job and had to prove our skills, my LE witch was manipulating luck through all of my companons' fights with thsoe two hexes, and in several cases I turned misses into hits and hits into critical threats.
gamer-printer:
I hope you don't think I was discrediting you OR the materials. Far from. But we have been gaming a LONG time, too, and have seen many broken spells/feats/classes come out of third-party products, so we are... reluctant... to use them.
That fact aside, this isn't an Asian-themed game, so that might get in the way too. More of a traditional "Dracula/Frankenstein/Werewolf" horror, but in a pre-industrial world. Gun powder weapons are an option, but rare (and who would want to use them in this game, anyway!? LOL!)
Rynjin:
LMAO! Will keep an eye out for that!
Dorian 'Grey':
I considered the Inquisitor/Ranger combo, as well. But some of the abilities are redundant, and from what I've read, you lose A LOT from the Inquisitor if you do more than a 2 level dip. By my reading, I would say more than a 4 level dip would be too much. If we're talking about a game that may go to level 20, 16 levels of Inquisitor gives you full access to their spells, as well as most of their best abilities, though you lose their "Death Attack" equivalent (I believe).
I think you could make a pretty decent monster hunter using just the Ranger, and they get access to a free buddy (enhance with Boon Companion, to be certain), an assortment of circumstantially useful spells, high BAB, high skills, and a few free feats (weapon styles).
If you want to dip into Inquisitor (and I highly recommend against this), you either go 1 level for judgement, or you go 5 levels for Bane. If you go Inquisitor, I think you're best sticking with it most of the way. If you want an optimal build, choose to focus on either ranged combat with a composite longbow, or melee combat with a two-handed weapon. My build is going to be FAR from optimal. LOL!
So, your first Monster Hunter question should be this: Am I a holy man, or am I just a dude with a grudge against creatures? Even though the ranger's spells are technically divine in nature, I don't really consider them to be a "holy" class.
Basically, dipping either way,...
Thank good sir for the advice and time...i appreciate it...i am still considering ranged v. melee, but knowing myself--and my GM--I will probably focus on ranged. I like the "holy" angle to the Monster hunter and would probably go with more inquisitor, although I thought that, maybe, that the Ranger would help?. Druid may be another option or even Fighter archetype?..Hmmm....decision, decisions...lol
RE: your Drow Inquisitor:
Unless you're using a lot of house rules involving free racial feats, it's somewhat expensive to get a drow noble with all the bells and whistles.
From what you have up-thread, looks like you're expecting about 6 free feats:
Drow Nobility
Improved Drow Nobility
Greater Drow Nobility
Umbral Scion
Improved Umbral Scion
Noble Spell Resistance
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/drow.htm l#drow-nobility
If you aren't using those rules, a Drow Noble (being a CR 3 creature) isn't normally an allowable character race.
As an example, comperable character concepts (CR3): Wyrmling Red Dragon Paladin, A Worg Oracle (Blackened/Haunted) , A Dryad Bard, A Young/ Advanced Serpent Folk Wizard , A Young Hydra Fighter and an Advanced Lantern Archon Sorcerer
-TimD
RE: your Drow Inquisitor:
Unless you're using a lot of house rules involving free racial feats, it's somewhat expensive to get a drow noble with all the bells and whistles.
From what you have up-thread, looks like you're expecting about 6 free feats:
Drow Nobility
Improved Drow Nobility
Greater Drow Nobility
Umbral Scion
Improved Umbral Scion
Noble Spell Resistancehttp://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/drow.htm l#drow-nobility
If you aren't using those rules, a Drow Noble (being a CR 3 creature) isn't normally an allowable character race.
As an example, comperable character concepts (CR3): Wyrmling Red Dragon Paladin, A Worg Oracle (Blackened/Haunted) , A Dryad Bard, A Young/ Advanced Serpent Folk Wizard , A Young Hydra Fighter and an Advanced Lantern Archon Sorcerer
-TimD
I'm well aware of this. But I wasn't when I FIRST created my character. At that moment, all I had access to was the Core Rulebook, APG, Bestiary 1, and maybe a couple of other books. So I went with RAW as presented in the Bestiary 1, which listed Drow Noble as a playable race option with no level adjustment, no special feats requirement, nothing extra or special required.
Then, when I was trying to research alternate racial traits, I encountered a thread stating that the author had intended there to be a +1 (or maybe it was +2) level adjustment for the Drow Noble. I took note of it. Then, after FURTHER research, I came across the info presented in the ARG (which you linked), showing how to BUILD a Drow Noble from a base Drow.
After discovering this information, I presented it to my group this last weekend, and asked them what they wanted me to do. The game we're playing is being done as a "rotating GM" game, meaning we each take a turn at running the game when it hits a key point where we can hand it off. I kept my own opinions out of the discussion, as it was MY character being discussed. Group consensus was to just roll with my character as it was -- using the info we had at the time of his creation, all the powers, no level adjustment. I was fully ready to accept a level adjustment of up to +2, but in no way would I have spent the six feats to be a Drow Noble (which doesn't get the ability score bonuses of the Drow Noble, incidentally.) Instead, I would have just played a base-line Drow (which was my original intention, anyway.)
I was not looking to cheese my character or be overpowered, and I really don't think I will be. The abilities are nice, but they're not THAT over-the-top. I wasn't looking for a ridiculous race to compliment my character class. I decided on Inquisitor first, then was stumped on what race to be. Someone else in the group suggested Drow, which sparked my interest, so I went with it. Low and behold, I found the Drow Noble in the Bestiary.
BTW... Drow Noble is NOT a CR 3 creature (at least according to the RAW in the Bestiary.) According to that info, it is a race with no hit dice, CR determined by the levels it possesses in classes. I'm just sayin...
Here's my source:
Drow
Damon Griffin:
Thanks for the heads-up on that feat. Good to know. Does kind of water down the usefulness when it can only affect one hex. This does bring the question to mind though. Is the ability to cast hexes the actual ability, and each hex is like a spell fueled by your hex power, or is each hex it's own ability? Hmmm... Is there a clear way to determine this, or has the Ability Focus (Hex) feat issue been officially addressed by Paizo?
James Jacobs addressed it here. Believe me, my own witch character and I wish it were otherwise. :)
IMHO, if you're only going to have one hex boosted by Ability Focus, it should be Evil Eye, as it's the most flexible.
Damon Griffin:
Thanks for the heads-up on that feat. Good to know. Does kind of water down the usefulness when it can only affect one hex. This does bring the question to mind though. Is the ability to cast hexes the actual ability, and each hex is like a spell fueled by your hex power, or is each hex it's own ability? Hmmm... Is there a clear way to determine this, or has the Ability Focus (Hex) feat issue been officially addressed by Paizo?
James Jacobs addressed it here. Believe me, my own witch character and I wish it were otherwise. :)
IMHO, if you're only going to have one hex boosted by Ability Focus, it should be Evil Eye, as it's the most flexible.
Well, lameness... LOL! But thanks for the link to that. Probably a feat we're gonna steer clear of, then. Though, I suppose if you did apply it to the Evil Eye hex, you could just use that hex to lower their saving throws, then follow up with whatever other hex you desire. Sure, that means you have to spend an extra round just "softening them up" for your follow-up hexes, but applying it to Evil Eye could otherwise be equivalent to having Ability Focus for all of your hexes at the cost of a "one round preparation". Hmmm... something to consider.
Question: Is it plausible or possible to use the same hex on a target that while it's still currently under the effects of said hex, provided you the hex doesn't specifically state that it may not be used on a target more than once, and provided you utilize a different effect? And if SO, would the new effect supersede the old effect, or would the two different effects work together for their individual durations?
Example:
My friend's Witch has an Int bonus of +3.
(Assume all saves are failed for this example)
Round 1: Casts Evil Eye on target, chooses to lower saves by 2, then Cackles.
Round 2: Casts Misfortune on target, forcing it to reroll pretty much all rolls and take the worst result, then cackles, extending EE and Misfortune by a round.
Round 3: Casts Evil Eye on target, chooses to lower attack rolls by 2, then cackles.
Round 4: Casts Evil Eye on target, chooses to lower AC by 2, then cackles.
Round 5: Casts Evil Eye on target, chooses to lower ability checks by 2, then cackles.
Round 6: Cackles twice.
Round 7: Casts Beguiling Gift, moves to target, hands target potion of poison to consume, 5' step away.
Round 8: Moves 20' away (she's a Gnome), then Cackles.
Round 9+: Continues to Cackle, and throwing in Agony once the Witch is level 10, effectively eliminating the target from combat.
*** HOLY FUDGE!!! I just saw in the FAQ/Errata that you CAN stack Evil Eye effects, so long as it's a different effect each time! WOWSERS!!!
So, would Cackle extend ALL effects that it is capable of extending, or just a single effect. I don't see any clarification on this, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't extend all effects since it applies to ALL creatures being affected by the Witch's applicable hexes, and those could all be different hexes. Is there any clarification on this?
I also like that you can spend an entire round Cackling, effectively extending the duration of your effects by 2 rounds for each round you cackle (since you can take two move actions in a round in place of a move and standard).
Now, I know this would be considerably less useful in a large combat, but in a boss fight, this would be an encounter breaker... especially if Agony was used early on, say after the first Evil Eye and Misfortune.
Misfortune would also be a good target for Ability Focus, come to think of it.... YIKES!!!
Yes, you could apply Evil Eye to the same target, as long as it applies to a different effect - then cackle away to keep them all running simultaneously. By RAW that's perfectly acceptable. Witch is my favorite spellcaster these days and she doesn't even need to cast any spells! :P
Oo! Oo! New question! Can a Witch use the Cauldron hex/Brew Potion feat to create hex in potion form!?
I'm sure my example here would be too powerful a hex (though how would you determine what could or could not be cast into a potion, if you ARE able to do so?), but as I was glancing over the hexes, major hexes, and grand hexes, I stumbled across Eternal Slumber. I could not help but instantly think of Snow White and the witch's apple, and almost immediately my thoughts shifted to images of the witch cackling around her cauldron as she "poisoned" the apple with her powerful witchcraft, which made me think of Brew Potion. So... Is this possible?
And that line of thought begs the question of whether or not it would be possible to implant curses (hexes) into food stuffs, items, or other methods of delivery which escape me at the moment???? While this particular train of thought would be of little use to a PC Witch (but not completely useless -- Hello Beguiling Gift!), this would be an excellent way to deliver hexes/curses to a party of heroes as a GM!
I'm getting pretty excited here! Is any of this stuff possible via RAW? If so, please direct me to some methods! :D
RE: the Inquisitor:
Whatever floats your boat on the racial, can't agree that the ability to get what's arguably the best 3rd level arcane spell in the game as a 1st level character as a spell-like ability isn't over-powered, so I'll drop it as we're unlikely to come to a consensus on that.
Regarding the actual build of the inquisitor however, I definately recommend Judgement Surge, especially at lower levels, as well as Combat Expertise at mid-levels where you may start to fall behind due to your lack of heavy armor (nor does taking a Heavy Armor prof help as it prohibits Stalwart). Instant Judgement can probably wait until higher levels, but once you want to start using multiple swift actions per round (ex Judgement & Bane) it becomes pretty handy, and it's also good if you're attacked in a surprise round. Once you're 11th level you qualify for Divine Interference, which can be amazing. Depending on the flavor of your campaign and the types of non-combat challenges you may encounter, you may also want to check out Insightful Gaze. You'll probably find Extend Bane more useful than Extra Bane based on your above build. Can't really address the missile weapon Feats as my 15th L Inquisitor is more of a back-up tank / party buff character. Likewise, can't really address the Sin Eating thing as I'm not a fan of the ability for the Golarion games which I've played which are very any hint of grotesqueness = evil / disallowed.
Regarding the Witch, I don't have as much practice with them, but from what I've seen / built as NPCs...
First off, don't be a gnome! :) (sorry, personal bias, I only like them in a light curry sauce / nice mesquite bbq sauce). I'll assume that I've convinced you that switching to a more noble race (like a kobold, maybe ;) has succeeded ... I'd go with a Hedge Witch as the ability to convert to "Cure X Wounds" is awesome, especially for "memorization casters". Hex-wise, the Slumber Hex is amazing at low levels and Healing Hex is a 1x/day free Cure Light Wounds for everyone but the Witch in the party and upgrades to Cure Moderate automatically at 5th level. Debuffing-wise, though, gotta agree that Evil Eye & Misfortune is where it's at. You didn't say anything about the Patron or Familiar for the Witch. Not sure where your (or the other player's) thoughts are on that, but keep alignment in mind if you're planning on taking Improved Familiar later.
-TimD
P.S. thematically the Snow White apple is Poison Steep Hex. To my knowledge there is no way to get a hex in a potion. You can sort of "Build your own Hex" once you hit 10th with Spell Hex, however.
Dukai:
Fortunately for me, while I may not be experienced with the Witch, my character in my the other game I'm playing is a 3.5 Beguiler conversion. I know all about that issue. And on top of the mind-affecting limitation, my Beguiler is kind of a weenie when it comes to any kind of combat. That's when you shift to party support. Buffing and, in the case of this Witch, healing party members when the need arises.
I'm already prepared for this inevitable situation.
Gravewalker is not a good option, party-cohesion wise... One guy is playing a Dwarven Paladin of a very strict, homebrew deity... and this guy player makes regular Paladins look like demon spawn. Then we have a lawful good Cavalier. A lawful good elven priest. An evil, undead commanding Witch would not go over well.
Now sure, my group is very patient and would let her get a feel for the game before warning her that her character was a complete clash with the group, and at risk of being gutted like a guppy. But eventually the Paladin would crack and either deal her swift justice, or turn her wickedness over to the authorities for a good, old fashioned beheading! LOL!
TimD:
*Regarding my Inquisitor:
The problem with your suggestions -- though I do appreciate the advice -- is that with a limit of 10 feats over the course of a career, I'm gonna have to split my focus even more. I want to be a decent two-weapon fighter, and a decent crossbow archer. The idea of having a bonded pet (integrating Wild Cohort from the WotC website) was a fun idea, but I'm probably gonna have to drop it and just have a well-trained regular pet... it's mostly an image thing, anyway. LOL!
It would be nice to have a couple of feats oriented toward class-specific abilities, but I haven't found much that I like. Extended/Extra Bane are good. I'd love to see an Extra Judgement feat in a Paizo product (yes, I'm aware that there is one in the Advanced Options: Inquisitors' Judgments by SSG, but as I've stated before, my group is not very friendly toward third-party materials.)
* Combat Expertise - I'm not really focusing on defense with my Inquisitor. He's a "the best defense is a good offense" kind of guy, though a little more balanced than an all-out powerhouse.
* Instant Judgment - A handy feat, but I'm a patient player and don't mind waiting one round to see my full potential kick in. But I'll still kick this one around a bit.
* Divine Interference - Now this one DOES look interesting. A handy way to help mitigate damage for my friends. I'll definitely take this one into consideration. Can you use this ability on yourself, or can it only be used on others?
* Insightful Gaze - This is a tough one, and it's even more tough with my "balanced build" idea. Since I'm already splitting feats down two combat styles, it's hard to lose one to a skill enhancer. But I like the idea of it!
My focus is to be more of a secondary damage dealer, not secondary tank. We have a Paladin AND a Cavalier in the group, so tanking is covered.
*Regarding the Witch:
Hey, I don't like gnomes, either. But I'm introducing a hot, young woman to a dorky hobby. Let the girl play what she wants. She picked the gnome because of the picture in the book, LOL! "She's small and cute, and doesn't have hair on her feet." LMAO! Let the pretty lady do what makes her happy, right?
Hedge Witch is something I've considered for her, but I hate sacrificing hexes for other abilities... it's a tough call. Plus, I'm not trying to confuse the poor girl by throwing too many options at her all at once!
I was recently considering a couple levels of Dirge Bard. Question: Would their Secrets of the Grave ability carry over to impact mind-affecting spells of another class? My assumption is no, but it's worth asking.
*** On a side note... Now I want to make a Dirge Bard with ranks in Perform (Sing) and Perform (Dance), and get him up to level 10 so I can get the Dance of the Dead performance, and pull off a Thriller scene. XD ***
Back to the point of the post. Two levels of Dirge Bard would give me:
* Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Performance (8 rounds), Cantrips, Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Spells, Haunted Eyes, and Secrets of the Grave.
** Haunted Eyes - +4 vs. fear, energy drain, death effects, and necromantic effects.
** Secrets of the Grave - "A dirge bard gains a bonus equal to half his bard level on Knowledge (religion) checks made to identify undead creatures and their abilities. A dirge bard may use mind-affecting spells to affect undead as if they were living creatures, even if they are mindless (though spells that affect only humanoids do not affect them, even if they were humanoids in life). In addition, he may add one necromancy spell from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class to his list of spells known at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter."
Now, the question isn't whether it's worth it to take a two level dip for bardic abilities. The question is would Secrets of the Grave work with spells from classes other than the Bard? It's not really specified. If there's an errata or clarification somewhere, let me know.
I just finished making my 10th level Inquisitor. He is a 1/2 Orc and I went full Inquisitor. You are correct that you would be giving up too much if multi-classed. I see a lot of different paths to take for it so limiting a feat progression was difficult. I also wanted to take class-specific feats but with only 6 to choose from it was....agonizing ( we are using occupations and drawbacks). Here's a small view:
STR 20(belt +2)
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 18
CHA 7
oops...sorry class starts in 10 minutes....i will continue later...lol
Are you really, really set on the 2 weapons for melee? Really?
I ask because the feat issues you're having could easily be overcome if you were to convert to a switch-hitter. If you were to use a 2 handed weapon you only need one feat - Power Attack! You can spend all the others on ranged and pets.
It's just an idea - but I appreciate it doesn't fit with your vision.
I just finished making my 10th level Inquisitor. He is a 1/2 Orc and I went full Inquisitor. You are correct that you would be giving up too much if multi-classed. I see a lot of different paths to take for it so limiting a feat progression was difficult. I also wanted to take class-specific feats but with only 6 to choose from it was....agonizing ( we are using occupations and drawbacks). Here's a small view:
STR 20(belt +2)
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 18
CHA 7oops...sorry class starts in 10 minutes....i will continue later...lol
OK...Feats: toughness (occupation gladiator--spent some time realizing his orc half in the arena), scent ( to sniff out those whom he is tracking), weapon focus (whip), whip mastery, imp. whip mastery, greater whip mastery, and two-weapon fighting plus 3 teamwork feats, including tandem trip.
Orc variants: city-raised (whip and longsword prof. instead of normal 1/2 orc great axe/flachion) and beastrial (+2 perception instead of ferocity) and favored class +1/2 intimidate/sense motive.Traits: reactionary (+2 initiative) and without a pass (+1 lingustics--class skill--and +1 bluff)
Inquisitor variant domain: conversion inquisition (uses WIS instead of CHA for bluff, dip, and intimidate)
...combining allm that with judgements and bane makes for a useful combatant with skill availabilty. Oh and they get spells as a sorc....nice..i can't wait to test him out...first trial run will be Sunday..thx
Healing Hex is a 1x/day free Cure Light Wounds for everyone but the Witch in the party
I think the Witch can touch herself to benefit from the healing hex.
I agree with Arbane, too many good hexes: cackle, evil eye, misfortune, flight. And she probably will need the feat accursed hex at one time.
Improved familiar is great later on, take something which can hold wand - and then ill omen.
But - as this is homeplay and there will be hopefully a lot of roleplaying, with downtime, and a new player - let her take what she wants. If she is unhappy - give her the chance to change. The main part is fun, not to play an overall optimized character.
If it fits, have a look at th winter witch (archetype and prestige class), it looks great and has lots of flavour.
@Stuart haffenden: Yes. Two-weapon fighting. I've already had to wave my original vision of dual wielding crossbows, as it seems impossible to do this in any sort of efficient manner, so I don't want to scrap my vision entirely. But thanks for the suggestion.
@cp: I'm well aware that crossbows in D&D/Pathfinder totally SUCK. The steps toward efficient crossbow use are painful, to say the least. But I don't want guns. I could see it, but I would also have to blow feats just to be able to use them, and I get too few of those already.
@Arbane the Terrible: Our group DOES actually have significant downtime between quests, and we use fairly lenient rules regarding potion, scroll, and similar minor item creation. Otherwise I would have steered her away from it. ;)
@PeteZero: There is a lot of role-play and downtime. Also, we are a group of players in our late 30's who have been playing since our mid teens. At this point, we care more about enjoying the experience than forcing someone to be stuck with bad or less than fun decisions. We generally limit players to changing things when they level up, though we will allow players to change some things during "downtime", via proper training at a school, academy, or other such instructional institution (which we try to generally make readily available.) Nobody wants to play a character that isn't fun to play. And Winter Witch did look interesting.
For a witch, make sure you balance your spells/hexes.
The witch is excellent when it comes to mind-affecting hexes and spells, but you need to diversify for mindless creatures (and other creatures immune to mind-affecting effects), either via buffing your allies or taking spells that can harm/debilitate those enemies.
At mid/late levels, obviously you can then grab a wand or two (which works well with the Prehensile Hair hex) and buy scrolls to teach your familiar (especially since you said you have significant downtime).
Don't forget to pick up a Corset of Dire Witchcraft (Body) and Cackling Hag's Blouse (Chest) when you can afford them.
The Witch is one of my favourite classes to play. Absolutely love it.
If the five round clip on the repeating crossbow is a problem for you, why not take ranks in knowledge: engineering and craft: bowyer, and improve on your tools as you level? I can't think of any reason your character couldn't develop extended magazines. After all, somebody had to be the first to make a repeating crossbow, there's no rule that you can't be the first to make it better.
Alternately, you could make friends with an inventor, or have a tech support person from your faith, who could not only be an in-game reason to improve the clip size, but could also allow for fun experimental weapons testing.
If the five round clip on the repeating crossbow is a problem for you, why not take ranks in knowledge: engineering and craft: bowyer, and improve on your tools as you level? I can't think of any reason your character couldn't develop extended magazines. After all, somebody had to be the first to make a repeating crossbow, there's no rule that you can't be the first to make it better.
Alternately, you could make friends with an inventor, or have a tech support person from your faith, who could not only be an in-game reason to improve the clip size, but could also allow for fun experimental weapons testing.
Kind of a 'Bond-meets-Van Helsing' hybrid. I like it. I actually did take one of my 1st level ranks in Craft (Bowyer) and another in Knowledge (Engineering) for just this concept, though it was more about maintaining my gear and producing my own crossbow bolts "in the field".
I'd have to see how the group would feel about extended clips or the possibility of having an inventor friend... Hmmm.
@n00bxqb: I've really been liking the witch class. I just may have to make one of my own in a future game. As far as the problem with mind-affecting spells, I came up with a solution. It requires a 2-level dip into Dirge Bard, but their Secrets of the Grave ability allows all mind-affecting spells to affect undead "as if they were living creatures, even if they are mindless." Now, this only gets around the problem with undead, not plants and constructs, but I would argue that undead are a far more common problem than plant creatures and constructs, most of the time.
The only loss I see with this dip is losing ONE hex at 20th (but there's always the Extra Hex feat), and the loss of 1 8th level and 2 9th level spells per day, and delaying out Witch advancement gains by 2 levels. All in all, if it were my Witch, I feel it would be totally worth it.
As it is, I'm probably dipping my Inquisitor into Dirge Bard for 2 levels (for this exact reason), AND Flowing Monk for 2 to 4 levels. Yes, I know I'll lose some top end stuff, but we never make it to level 20 anyway. LOL! Flowing Monk is still up in the air, but there are some great benefits to doing so (remember, going for a balanced and flexible build here), but at the cost of losing some top end stuff. It's hard to justify any more than a 2 level dip outside of Inquisitor, and more than 4 levels costs top end spells, a judgement/day, and the Third Judgement ability. Tough call...
