With great risk comes.... no reward?


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge

I was at a society game Friday night when an issue with a fellow player came up. His character was in dire straits and nearly died when he learned that even though he had already played the scenario and was getting no rewards from it, if his character died he was still dead by society rules. He had a bit of a breakdown, said he was deleting his characters and never playing again. Immature way of handling things, sure, but it did make me wonder about the whole no rewards thing.

It does seem a bit harsh to impose the same penalties on a character when there is, in fact, no rewards at stake. If a player just wants to play to enjoy time with his friends and help out the group by offering an extra sword or spell it doesn't feel right that they should be at risk when they've nothing to gain out of it.

It's easy to tell someone "you don't have to play" or "suck it up, that's just how things are." But really it's kinda dickish. Gaming is meant to be a fun, sociable thing to do with your friends, and I don't see why even a small reward can't be given to replays or at least a limitation on the risks. Otherwise there really is no reason to replay a scenario and we're limiting our player base as noone in their right mind is going to gamble a character they've put a lot of time and effort into when there's nothing to get out of it.

Just starting this thread to get some thoughts and ideas churning, nothing here is intended to enflame or belittle the system.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I'm very upfront with players that if they want to replay, they get nothing out of it. No rewards, no special privileges. It's just part of the feel of the campaign. Your character can die any time he goes on mission, no exception. It's just the reality of the world.

If you have no reason to replay a scenario, don't.

Grand Lodge 1/5

At Paizocon, I heard of entire tables putting in to bring back a fallen PC. That is what I feel is the strength of this Organized Play system. It is a community and usually they are more than willing to help out a struggling player.

EDIT: @TOZ: I think the bigger issue is the character death, because you can always go on the next trek in hopes of treasure... unless you are dead, then nothing. SOL.

Dark Archive 4/5

While it may be weird that there's a chance of death despite the lack of reward for playing, consider the alternative. Let's say I have a big fighter who has already played an adventure everyone else is doing. I want to help them out. We have just imposed a rule that because I have nothing to gain, I will not be removed from the campaign even if I die; neither will I be burdened with any disease or curse I may fall victim too, and none of my expensive consumables will be considered used. Would I play my character any differently as a result?

Of course I would! I would take ridiculous risks, because I'm immortal! The rest of the party can use my entire curestick, because why should they expend resources that actually matter? In fact, let's use up these other potions I've been stockpiling too!

Even if the situation were not as blatant as that, how would you stop me from playing with abandon?

Paizo Employee 3/5 5/5

Probably because with great risk comes great responsibility. If there's no downside to whether my character lives or dies, I may take more risks, thereby putting the other characters at greater risk of dying. Some might even sign up for already played scenarios just for the lulz, messing with npc's etc. Forces you to play by the rules & play smart.

Ninja'd because I rewrite everything. But I'm a bard so my version counts.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Aeshuura wrote:
EDIT: @TOZ: I think the bigger issue is the character death, because you can always go on the next trek in hopes of treasure... unless you are dead, then nothing. SOL.

I just don't find that to be an issue.

Grand Lodge 4/5

How is it a "great risk" if you know EXACTLY what is behind the next corner of the dungeon?

Grand Lodge 1/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
EDIT: @TOZ: I think the bigger issue is the character death, because you can always go on the next trek in hopes of treasure... unless you are dead, then nothing. SOL.
I just don't find that to be an issue.

Fair enough. I think about it a lot at 1st lvl, but I am unsure about this particular situation.

3/5

Well, when the BBEG gets very lucky and double crits you? Not something you would expect.

Alternatively, can't you re-play scenarios but only use pregens? Then if they die, you apply it to a brand new lvl 1 character?

The Exchange 5/5

Wait, how is this PC getting to replay anyway?

I thought you couldm't replay the adventure at all, except to fill a table out to the required 4, and even then you used a Pre-Gen and did't get credit (Basicly playing an NPC for the fun of the game...)

3/5

As far as I understand it, replay is allowable at GM discretion, and not just to fill out a table, but with no reward. Nothing says you have to play one of your own characters, but nothing says you can't. But caution and common sense says you shouldn't.

To answer the OP further I guess, this ruling seems pretty balanced.

Consider, you're going to replay the scenario, just for fun... but also helping your fellow players. No way to entirely ensure you don't use player knowledge from previous experience as character knowledge. So, you can play your own character (more fun perhaps, and also probably more powerful than a pregen) but you risk death with no chance of reward. Or you can play pregen, but she's probably not as powerful/helpful to other characters as your own character would be, but at the same time you're not risking death.

Allowing players to replay with their own characters, with inside information, without risk of death, would make scenarios MUCH easier to safely complete for the other players' characters. Thus the rule.

Really, GM's should strongly encourage players replaying a scenario to use a pregen.

The Exchange 5/5

I have been wrong on many things before, but ... I was sure that re-play is NOT allowed. Even for no credit. with the only exception being in order to "make" the table of four players.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/55/5

nosig wrote:
I have been wrong on many things before, but ... I was sure that re-play is NOT allowed. Even for no credit. with the only exception being in order to "make" the table of four players.
Guide to Organized Play wrote:
You cannot receive more than 1 player Chronicle and 1 GM Chronicle for the same scenario, regardless of how many times you GM or play the scenario. You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.

3/5

Pathfinder Guide to Organized Play says:

""

hmmm... looks like I was wrong, only allowed to replay to meet table size. Which is 4. Or 3 and the GM plays a pregen.

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but it sound like if you first GM a scenario, while you normally couldn't then get player credit for it as well, if you replay to help meet table size, then you can get character credit. Off topic, I know.

Edit: Treed.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Where does it say that a player replaying an adventure is subjected to the costs of that adventure (ie death, disease, use of resources for their PC) when they earn no rewards for it?

I understand the concern that a player going in, knowing that the adventure has no consequences for their PC, might play differently; but to take on all the risks with no reward to help deal with any incurred conditions, is harsh. I don't know why anyone would do it.

To avoid the free use of consumables, make the first time players pay for any resources the replay PC "spends" on them.

And if a replayer is not playing as if they were at risk, the GM certainly has the right to kick them from the table.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

rangerjeff wrote:
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but it sound like if you first GM a scenario, while you normally couldn't then get player credit for it as well,

Actually you can do this (GM for credit first, then play for credit). The only restrictions are that you can't play with the same PC that received GM credit, and that using your knowledge of the scenario to metagame or spoil the adventure for others is a big no-no.

Dark Archive 4/5 *

The only time I've had an opportunity to reply a scenario, I've played a pregen.

There's no circumstance in which I'd play using one of my own characters.

4/5

Where is this character death recorded? They wouldn't get a chronicle sheet or reward and therefore bear no risk either as there is no record at all of them playing at the table.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Yiroep wrote:
Where is this character death recorded? They wouldn't get a chronicle sheet or reward and therefore bear no risk either as there is no record at all of them playing at the table.

When the Event Coordinator or GM enters the session sheet for the game they would mark that player dead. Same way as every other time.

The Exchange 5/5

And they do get a Chronicle sheet, just with no XP, no PP, no gold and no boons or equipment access. Whether death/expendables use counts against the character or not appears to be a gray area. The Campaign Guide doesn't say either way, so this is something you should clear up with your table GM prior to the game starting. Personally, if you replay with your own PC at my table you are taking all the risks. As Dust Raven said, using a pre-gen is the wisest move.

3/5

sveden wrote:
Yiroep wrote:
Where is this character death recorded? They wouldn't get a chronicle sheet or reward and therefore bear no risk either as there is no record at all of them playing at the table.
When the Event Coordinator or GM enters the session sheet for the game they would mark that player dead. Same way as every other time.

Doesn't the reporting system give you an error if you try to report someone as playing a scenario more than once though?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Saint Caleth wrote:
sveden wrote:
Yiroep wrote:
Where is this character death recorded? They wouldn't get a chronicle sheet or reward and therefore bear no risk either as there is no record at all of them playing at the table.
When the Event Coordinator or GM enters the session sheet for the game they would mark that player dead. Same way as every other time.
Doesn't the reporting system give you an error if you try to report someone as playing a scenario more than once though?

No. It just doesn't give them credit.

2/5 *

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First thing you should know is that a GM can say ‘no’ to replay. It’s his discretion on whether it’s allowed.

Did the player inform the GM that he was replaying the scenario (at the start of the scenario)? If ‘yes’ then it was the GMs responsibility to have that player play a pregen or tell them the drawbacks of playing their PC (and if it was never communicated, the player has a case). If the player never told the GM he was replaying, then he deserves his death.

The following is my opinion only but I feel if players are going to replay scenarios:

1) Replay should be discouraged (or be the exception) unless it’s done to make a table happen; and

2) The player should play a pregen, not his PC. Having an expendable pregen is already an asset, having an expendable PC is a tremendous asset, and it’s very unfair considering that PCs are more powerful and typically have better consumables than pregens.

Also, playing a pregen makes it REALLY CLEAR that if you die, it’s not going to affect any of your PCs.

Anyway, I think there was a miscommunication problem between the GM and player about “expectations”. If it was a local game, the GM should have let the player away with a warning this time.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

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I have a frequent flyer player/gm that often plays for no credit. Whenever I'm organizing a table he says, "Walter, I'll just play it for no credit -- don't care about it, I just want to play." He understands that if the worst happens, he'll have to pay for it, but he's not really into PFS for the misering of XP and gear -- he just wants to play.

I say this to make a point: if you think about PFS as a regular pathfinder game, replaying for no credit is just like any session where your group doesn't get any quantifiable XP or loot at the end. It happens sometimes -- where you get no material reward -- but you still got to play the game, which is the real reward.

/aww moment

Grand Lodge 4/5

"Misering of XP and gear"? Why sully your good time feelings with value judgements?

5/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
you still got to play the game, which is the real reward.

Just playing at the table of such a great GM would be reward enough for me, Walter!

*goes and pukes his brains out*

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

"sveden wrote:


"Misering of XP and gear"? Why sully your good time feelings with value judgements?

?? Pardon? No judgement here -- perhaps 'misering' was the incorrect term. Acquiring? Collecting? Would those be better?

I honestly don't see miser as a negative word -- "I miser my savings so I can buy people presents." I always thought of it to mean someone who's a penny pincher. Although, a quick search on the interwebs shows me it can have "grinch like" connotations. Apologies for the confusion.

Kyle Baird wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
you still got to play the game, which is the real reward.

Just playing at the table of such a great GM would be reward enough for me, Walter!

*goes and pukes his brains out*

Gosh golly gee, that sure would be swell, Kyle!

Grand Lodge 5/5

Doug Miles wrote:
And they do get a Chronicle sheet, just with no XP, no PP, no gold and no boons or equipment access. Whether death/expendables use counts against the character or not appears to be a gray area. The Campaign Guide doesn't say either way, so this is something you should clear up with your table GM prior to the game starting. Personally, if you replay with your own PC at my table you are taking all the risks. As Dust Raven said, using a pre-gen is the wisest move.

Sorry Doug, a replayer does not get a Chronicle sheet (as a player) they already have one and may only get 1 as a player. That is in the Guide.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

I once replayed a scenario by accident. It didn't sound familiar at first and it wasn't on my summary list of scenarios completed. But as we progressed it got more and more familiar. When I got home that night I went through all my chronicle sheets for all my characters and discovered that I had played it before. Turned out to be the ONLY error on my summary sheet :-(.

Obviously, I just ripped up the second chronicle sheet. If I'd died I'd certainly have treated it as "Oops. My mistake. Sucks to be me".

But its a pretty easy mistake to make.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

On another note, I think that it would be a good idea to allow scenarios to be replayed with some kind of minimum time limit between when they could be played (say 6 months or so).

While the replay rule stops inadvertent player knowledge it has a limited effect on actual player knowledge of scenarios. A player could have GMed it before or, of course, they could have just read the scenario before.

This would address the problem that some players have with it becoming difficult to find an unplayed scenario. More importantly, sometimes a particular scenario can REALLY fit a particular character and it can be disappointing to have played that scenario with the "wrong" character.

Maybe even make it a boon?

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Don Walker wrote:
Sorry Doug, a replayer does not get a Chronicle sheet (as a player) they already have one and may only get 1 as a player. That is in the Guide.

If you don't get a Chronicle sheet, then there's no paper trail that leaves you with conditions (like death).

The Exchange 5/5

That appears to be the corner that the new Guide has painted us into. No Chronicle = no record of expendables or death = no risk of replay with a personal PC.

If this logic is wrong, I hope that Mike or Mark jump in here and clarify.

Grand Lodge 4/5

sveden wrote:
Yiroep wrote:
Where is this character death recorded? They wouldn't get a chronicle sheet or reward and therefore bear no risk either as there is no record at all of them playing at the table.
When the Event Coordinator or GM enters the session sheet for the game they would mark that player dead. Same way as every other time.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

It's rather difficult to audit someone's profile on the internet.

Silver Crusade 4/5

pauljathome wrote:

On another note, I think that it would be a good idea to allow scenarios to be replayed with some kind of minimum time limit between when they could be played (say 6 months or so).

While the replay rule stops inadvertent player knowledge it has a limited effect on actual player knowledge of scenarios. A player could have GMed it before or, of course, they could have just read the scenario before.

This would address the problem that some players have with it becoming difficult to find an unplayed scenario. More importantly, sometimes a particular scenario can REALLY fit a particular character and it can be disappointing to have played that scenario with the "wrong" character.

Maybe even make it a boon?

I like this idea. Being able to replay an adventure you played so long ago that you don't really remember it would be ok with me, as long as there were limits on it to keep it from being abused. Maybe allow one replay per year for each star after your name. ie No stars = no replay, one star = one replay per year, two stars = two replays per year, etc.

By linking it to GM stars, you'd also be encouraging people who play enough to run out of scenarios to give GMing a try, and participate that way on game days where there's no unplayed scenario available for them.

Scarab Sages

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Playing any scenario twice, no matter how well written, would bore me.
I would have to really like the other players, or owe them a favour, to spend four hours retreading old ground.
So, I'm only going to be doing it as a last resort, if it's the only way to get a game, or to help out a friend make up a legal table.

To compound the tedium, by playing it through with the exact same PC as last time? Why would I even consider that? To go through the same encounters, making the same decisions, using the same resources, getting the same results?

If I'm taking one for the team, then I reserve the right to shake things up. To step outside my comfort zone.
Maybe I could use the opportunity to playtest a class I've rarely/never used before?
Or a personality that differs from my usual PC?

And that's where the pregens come in.
Are they optimised? Hell, no.
But since when did you need to optimise, to carry off a mission for PFS?
Are they well-written, with distinct backstories? Hell yes.
Have they the potential to be hammed up, outrageously? Oh, yes.

If I play a pregen, they may never solo the scenario. But I'l make damn sure you won't forget them.

Liberty's Edge

I'm loving the discussion I started. I'm seeing good points from both sides, and even though I'm on the side of getting SOMETHING out of the gaming session besides warm fuzzies for playing with your friends and aquaintences, I understand why that isn't currently the case.

I would like to offer a counter argument to the people who say that replayers might cheapen the experience by using their prior knowledge to gain an advantage by saying that the people that would do that are also likely the people that would just pirate the adventures and read them ahead of time.

Maybe a compromise? Only allow rewards for replays for prior seasons? That way it's less likely that newer stuff that fewer people have played get spoilers revealed by unscrupulous players?

Silver Crusade 4/5

I'm very much opposed to giving smaller rewards to someone replaying who can't get XP or PA for the replay. This could easily lead to abuse, with someone getting extra rewards for one of their PCs by constantly replaying scenarios they've previously played. That PC wouldn't advance in level, due to not getting XP for their adventures, but they'd be able to build up more advantages than other PCs of the same level by accumulating the smaller rewards for replaying.

If we allow replays at all, as we do on a very limited basis now, it should either be for full credit or no credit.

2/5 *

"Allowing unlimited replay in PFS" is a topic most forumites don't want to discuss again.

Needless to say, there won't be unlimited replay for credit in PFS. If you want the reasons why, just do a search for 'replay' or maybe someone can link them.

4/5

Doug Miles wrote:

That appears to be the corner that the new Guide has painted us into. No Chronicle = no record of expendables or death = no risk of replay with a personal PC.

If this logic is wrong, I hope that Mike or Mark jump in here and clarify.

I wouldn't necessarily view that as a bad thing. I think it's certainly up to debate what "should" happen.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Snorter wrote:

Playing any scenario twice, no matter how well written, would bore me.

[...]
To compound the tedium, by playing it through with the exact same PC as last time? Why would I even consider that? To go through the same encounters, making the same decisions, using the same resources, getting the same results?

I am currently the only GM in my region and have started replaying scenarios for those players who missed them the first time around. Both times I replayed, one of my veteran players had to jump in to fill the table. The first time, he used the same character, but since the group was completely different and he wasn't making any big decisions due to the fact that he already knew the adventure, things went completely differently. He had quite a lot of fun.

Second time, though, he did try out a new character since he was itching to try a certain build.

Not all groups find out all information about a scenario. Many scenarios have different possible outcomes. So replaying something isn't just making the same decisions, getting the same results, all the time. :)

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Snorter wrote:

Playing any scenario twice, no matter how well written, would bore me.

I would have to really like the other players, or owe them a favour, to spend four hours retreading old ground.
So, I'm only going to be doing it as a last resort, if it's the only way to get a game, or to help out a friend make up a legal table.

Have you never replayed First Steps?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

Right now we're at the point where we are starting to have a few players slip into the 3-7 and even 7-11 range but we have a few new kids coming in who are new.

The big thing I'm having is we have 2 steady game days at two stores. One on Thursday and the other on Sunday.. and a monthly game day that is our 'big event'.

We get some folks come into one.. others to the other and a couple into both. How do I wrangle things to keep everyone on a keel? Should I ask some of the 'steadies' to both to DM instead of me at one event? That lets them contribute while getting the other players to catch up.

Sczarni 5/5 * Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman

Just encourage people to GM, eventually someone will step up. If people seem less then eager just remind them they they get to apply the credit to whatever character is in range without taking any risk to said character.

Liberty's Edge

I've replayed once to make a table. At first I wasn't super enthusiastic about not playing a scenario for credit, but it turned out to be really fun. I picked a level 1 pregen of a class I'd never played before, and the group makeup was totally different the second time. We almost had a TPK, but I was using everything I could think of to keep my character, and my friends characters, alive so it certainly felt like risk even if one of my regular characters wouldn't have perished.

Really the experience was very valuable to me because the GM was great, someone I hadn't met before, and the players were all fun to game with. It was really cool to see how a different GM and a different group of people can make the scenario play so much differently. Skills challenges and combats that were easy one time turned out to be really difficult the second time, etc.

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