| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
5 years ago in 2007, I asked if there would be a PAYPAL option for PDF products the answer was "probably not before christmas".
Now 5 years later Paizo still has not a PAYPAL option set up. I really wonder why?
Do you not understand that you have customers in Europe for example, and that over here NOT everybody has a credit card?
Are you earning enough money to disregard this payment method, which is deemed safe enough by companys such as Amazon?
Really now I would like to understand the reason for the refusal of Paizo to offer PAYPAL to its customers.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm in Europe. In the rotten, dark, mutated polar bear infested backyard of Europe. Where devil says goodbye and angel says "every alcohol is very good, except for methanol which just good". (read: Poland).
And I have a debit card I can use for shopping at Paizo. Two of them, even.
Here's a follow-up to your original questions, where Vic Wertz says PayPal in the near future is unlikely.
We took some time in the past couple of weeks to examine PayPal integration in detail, and we found many things that make it a bigger challenge than we expected. (While it's easy for certain types of orders, it's a bit of a nightmare for certain other types of orders.) At this time, we need to put our development efforts elsewhere, so PayPal is on the backburner again. To be honest, unless they make significant changes to their systems, it probably won't happen this year.
-Vic.
Here, a year later, he reasserts that nothing has changed.
PayPal's processing regulations don't support many of the transaction types we use here; unless they change them significantly, direct PayPal support is not in the cards.
And here, in 2009, the answer is a flat no.
Any chance that you all will take Paypal in the future as an alternative?Nope. Their authorization requirements aren't compatible with our business needs.
Here is an explanation why.
We looked into it, but it's not going to happen.
The problem is that PayPal's authorization system is designed for paying for items that ship pretty much immediately. As with credit cards, an authorization is opened when you place an order, and gets closed when the order ships. But unlike credit cards, PayPal expires payment authorizations quickly (in a matter of days, whereas credit cards authorizations can stay open for weeks), and they limit the number of times you can reopen them, and they limit the amount of time they can be reopened after the initial transaction. Worst of all, if you have too many authorizations that expire without being closed, they say they'll close your account.
In short, this means that subscriptions, preorders, backorders, and even some plain old out-of-stock items that we have to order from our distributor would take too long to fulfill for PayPal's authorization standards, so we can't use them until that changes.
This really sucks. I have a debit card I'm paranoid about using on the internet(after I hear about what happened to others), and a credit card Paizo won't accept.
I live in Italy. My online bank gives me a free credit card and a free debit card (no yearly fees).
Also, PayPal gave me a card that works online and that I can recharge for free through their site.
Doesn't seem to be available everywhere/to everyone.
I would mainly want PayPal support to buy PDF...
*rereads Joana's post* wait, does that mean they (paizo) don't accept pre-paid credit cards either?
Oh, and paypal has rules such as immediately spending out orders. That means preorders are out, and so is Paizo. Or something.
That's standard procedure. I have a credit card on file with Paizo and they never charge it until they ship. In my own company, as part of our agreement with various card services we can't charge a card until we ship the product. Maybe there are some providers that don't require this...but no major ones.
M
*rereads Joana's post* wait, does that mean they (paizo) don't accept pre-paid credit cards either?
*rereads her own post* I don't see anything there that applies to pre-paid credit cards, and as I recall, one of Paizo's proposed solutions for customers who don't have credit cards is to use a reloadable card and put money onto it as needed.
Pre-paid Visas or Mastercards work exactly like "ordinary" cards, afaik, and thus a pre-paid card would process just like a credit card, including the authorizations that are apparently problematic with PayPal.
*rereads Joana's post* wait, does that mean they (paizo) don't accept pre-paid credit cards either?*rereads her own post* I don't see anything there that applies to pre-paid credit cards, and as I recall, one of Paizo's proposed solutions for customers who don't have credit cards is to use a reloadable card and put money onto it as needed.
Pre-paid Visas or Mastercards work exactly like "ordinary" cards, afaik, and thus a pre-paid card would process just like a credit card, including the authorizations that are apparently problematic with PayPal.
I read somewhere that ppcc can't be used for subscriptions, maybe it only apply to those which cannot be recharged/reloaded.
|
Oh, and paypal has rules such as immediately spending out orders. That means preorders are out, and so is Paizo. Or something.That's standard procedure. I have a credit card on file with Paizo and they never charge it until they ship. In my own company, as part of our agreement with various card services we can't charge a card until we ship the product. Maybe there are some providers that don't require this...but no major ones.
M
mearrin, read Joana's post, its about the authorization, not the charge
Iirc, unless it's changed recently, the PayPal debit card is only available in the US, which doesn't help European customers like the OP.
mearrin, read Joana's post, its about the authorization, not the chargeOh, and paypal has rules such as immediately spending out orders. That means preorders are out, and so is Paizo. Or something.That's standard procedure. I have a credit card on file with Paizo and they never charge it until they ship. In my own company, as part of our agreement with various card services we can't charge a card until we ship the product. Maybe there are some providers that don't require this...but no major ones.
M
Cpt_kirstov, read my post: I didn't respond to Joana's post, I responded to David's. He didn't say anything about authorizations, he said (pre-paid) pre-orders are out. Maybe I misunderstood him but I thought he was suggesting that was one of the reasons Paizo couldn't use Paypal. Pre-paid pre-orders are out with *any* major payment mechanism, because all that I know of require you to ship the product being paid for when payment is collected.
Cosmo says they can't work with Paypal. Cest la vie, I guess. There are other ways. The price point on our products is a bit higher than Paizo but my company doesn't take Paypal either. I did look at it back when we started since we work with start-ups but it just didn't pan out. We do take Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and American Express; and the relationships with the providers of those service were *far* easier to establish than the one we tried to set up with Paypal.
M
Wait, so debit cards can be used provided it's Visa/Mastercard/Discover? Does anyone know if this works in Canada now? Thank's to Canada's Interac system debit cards and credit cards were completely different beasts when it came to online use for a long time. Most Canadian websites still distinguish between credit cards and debit cards. Has this changed? Am I that out of touch with banking technology?
Side-note: I'm also intrigued by what sounds like vastly different banking systems in some countries. I only have one debit card which covers all my accounts with the same bank. It sounds like some people have six or more.
Cpt_kirstov, read my post: I didn't respond to Joana's post, I responded to David's. He didn't say anything about authorizations, he said (pre-paid) pre-orders are out. Maybe I misunderstood him but I thought he was suggesting that was one of the reasons Paizo couldn't use Paypal. Pre-paid pre-orders are out with *any* major payment mechanism, because all that I know of require you to ship the product being paid for when payment is collected.
For what it's worth, this isn't entirely accurate with PayPal.
PayPal allows pre-sales as long as it's shipped within 20 days.
From a subscription standpoint, Paizo COULD setup a system to send PayPal invoices to subscribers around the same time they start pre-auth'ing cards and typically be within that 20 day window, assuming people pay their invoice on the very same day.
Outside of that, since the gift certificate method comes up rather often, they could also use PayPal just to sell gift certificates, so there's no issue with the delivery windows.
|
I don't know how viable this would be in other countries, but this is what I do in Australia, when using my debit card (i do have a CC though).
I have a separate sub-account set up under my main bank account, which is linked to a debit visa card, when I want to use this card to purchase something online, I simply need to transfer money between my account.
Having it set up this way means if someone does get access to my debit visa card details, they can't go spending all my money - just what is currently in there.
My PayPal account has a PayPal issued debit card with the Mastercard logo. I have been able to use it at Paizocon, and on Amazon, and on kickstarter.
Seems a easy solution.
I remember trying to set one of those up with my paypal as well, but i ran into something in the process that kept me from going through with it. I don't remember what exactly it was though, if it was just a condition i didnt agree with or if it was a requirement i couldn't fulfill.
Anyway I would love to see some regular paypal support here, because I would love to order my books with the pdfs, even if it meant i couldn't preorder them. I usually buy them post-publication anyway, since amazon germany reliably fails to deliver preordered paizo products on launch. (or within the next two months thereafter)
Side-note: I'm also intrigued by what sounds like vastly different banking systems in some countries. I only have one debit card which covers all my accounts with the same bank. It sounds like some people have six or more.
I didn't see it that way. It's been my experience that a lot of people spread their money over several accounts, to keep it separate. For example, my dad has one account that bills are automatically deducted from, and then another that he uses for whatever else.
Somewhat more on topic, I'm kind of surprised to find that some banks don't offer a debit card that can be used to pay for things. I figured that was one of those ideas that was so obvious as to be ubiquitous.
Then there's the insanity that is the American banking system. Let me get this straight... little Mom & Pop banks that only exist in one city or state? Debit cards that are really just credit cards with a different name on them? Madness.
Here (Canada) we have about a dozen major banks and they're basically nation-wide. We do have "credit unions" which are local financial institutions that let groups of like-minded individuals support one another. But all of them are linked electronically, so a debit card from any of them - regardless of size - is accepted at any retail establishment.
More, our debit cards are debit cards. They're like cash. If I have $X in my bank account, I use my debit card to remove $Y from that account and put it into a retailer's account, as long as $Y is not greater than $X. I cannot over-spend. I cannot borrow. A debit card is my money, in plastic form. Our credit cards are exactly like American credit cards but the idea of getting a Visa debit card is very alien to us. We don't need Visa or Mastercard because our bank issues a card linked to our money? What's a third party involved for?
The biggest culture shock visiting the US is the banking. It's startling to walk into a restaurant and they can't accept my debit card. What? It's my MONEY. No, they only do the credit card companies. So... I have to borrow money to give to the restaurant and pay it back later? What?
So anyway, yeah, banking is very different from country to country. Hopefully the original poster finds a way to give his money to Paizo. Mine is getting lonely there. <Grin>
Anguish, having a Visa or MasterCard logo on your debit card means you can use it at any place that takes credit cards. Some businesses can't accept debit cards, but that info allows them to run it as a credit card. It's pretty transparent on the user's end (some places will ask how you prefer it to be run, but it doesn't cost you more unless it's for a small transaction and the business adds an extra for stuff under $5 to offset the swipe fee they pay). And if they run your debit card as a credit card, you can't spend more than what's actually in your account, just like a normal debit transaction, you're not charged interest for that transaction like you are for a credit card, and so on.
I'm sure there's some archaic law reason behind it working the way it is, I dunno.
I'm with Anquish on this. (Side-note to Anguish: it's actually only 6 banks that are nation-wide with everything else being "Credit unions" - we have a very tightly controlled system). Our Interac system, which is Canada's national debit system, has Canadians trained to see debit and credit cards working as two very different things.
Since I became aware of this thread I've checked with a number of people and between the people I've asked so far there are 16 accounts spread over 5 of the 6 major Canadian banks. Not a single one of us has the Visa or Mastercard symbol on our debit cards (though some of the people I asked do have a separate Visa or Mastercard). So I feel some relief, I don't think I'm that out of touch with technology just yet. It looks like Canada still doesn't use this debit-as-credit system. At least not around me anyway.
Edit: Going off of Anguish's restaurant example - here in Canada when you go to restaurant and wish to pay they ask if it will be cash, debit/Interac, or credit card. If the answer isn't cash, they'll bring the portable Interac machine over to the table and then select debit or credit card. Everything about our banking culture has trained us to keep these things separate.
|
Regarding Pre-Paid Visa Cards (at least, my prepaid Visa) -- the only thing I can NOT purchase with it (that I know of) is a Rental Car. Everything else that I can get with a Visa I can get, but no rental car.
(As a matter of fact, I JUST got my prepaid Visa 24 hours ago after a month-long and pretty serious, ultimately unresolvable conflict of interest with my bank of the last 5 years and just renewed my 3 Paizo Subscriptions with my new Visa yesterday -- so the "dos & don'ts" of the prepaid Visa are pretty fresh in my head.)
Anguish, having a Visa or MasterCard logo on your debit card means you can use it at any place that takes credit cards. Some businesses can't accept debit cards, but that info allows them to run it as a credit card. It's pretty transparent on the user's end (some places will ask how you prefer it to be run, but it doesn't cost you more unless it's for a small transaction and the business adds an extra for stuff under $5 to offset the swipe fee they pay). And if they run your debit card as a credit card, you can't spend more than what's actually in your account, just like a normal debit transaction, you're not charged interest for that transaction like you are for a credit card, and so on.
I'm sure there's some archaic law reason behind it working the way it is, I dunno.
Sean, The Block Knight explained things pretty well but I figure I'll expand. We don't have Visa or Mastercard logos on our debit cards because they're bank-issued, and have zero to do with those companies.
Also, swipe-fees for merchants are (much) lower for debit transactions here relative to credit cards. It's nothing to walk into a convenience store and buy a sub-$1 item on debit card. I believe our retailers pay a monthly fixed fee (likely based on expected volume). Where I work we process maybe a half-dozen debit/credit transactions a month so the monthly fee for us can't be large. At the same time, I know the per-transaction fee can't be large either.
TBK mentions "Interac". That's a country-wide network that's effectively available everywhere. Our debit machines will have markings for "Interac", "Plus", and I think the big credit card logos. You can use anything at our ATMs. (For instance doing cash-advances with credit cards.) But Interac just doesn't exist south of the border, so the plastic we're accustomed to treating exactly like cash suddenly reverts to being a strip of uselessness. It's a culture-shock.
You're right, it very likely is a legal issue that has the US working as it does. Historically the protection of state laws and rights and economies as the union grew was hugely influential. Here we didn't have that, really. Basically the ultra short version is "the English beat the French, made a country and let some of the Frenchmen stay in part of it." So it's simpler for us to make things... uniform.
Not that using the big credit card companies isn't a decent work-around... it's just not how we do it.
But hey, as long as I can pay Paizo, everything's golden.
The more you know.
I get why you guys can't use PayPal. Completely understandable. I'll just continue to use prepaid credit cards I suppose.
Side-note: I do find it ironic however that a bunch of other countries are able to access e-commerce in the States using the debit-as-credit card system but Canada, which is basically "mini-me America" in a lot of ways, can't.
"the English beat the French, made a country and let some of the Frenchmen stay in part of it."
Sad but so true...
Now more on topic, in Canada, there's a regulation bureau that looks into the banking system and make sure to keep the credit card major from pushing abusive products. This combined with the fact that the banks offert their own debit solution, means that we don't and won't have Visa or Mastercard debit card for a while. Not that they didn't tried already.
The best thing to do when you travel alot or buy online is to have a separate credit card that you keep only for these kind of use. So if you ever lose it, are victim from a fraud, you won't lose much.
Then there's the insanity that is the American banking system. Let me get this straight... little Mom & Pop banks that only exist in one city or state? Debit cards that are really just credit cards with a different name on them? Madness.
Here (Canada) we have about a dozen major banks and they're basically nation-wide. We do have "credit unions" which are local financial institutions that let groups of like-minded individuals support one another. But all of them are linked electronically, so a debit card from any of them - regardless of size - is accepted at any retail establishment.
More, our debit cards are debit cards. They're like cash. If I have $X in my bank account, I use my debit card to remove $Y from that account and put it into a retailer's account, as long as $Y is not greater than $X. I cannot over-spend. I cannot borrow. A debit card is my money, in plastic form. Our credit cards are exactly like American credit cards but the idea of getting a Visa debit card is very alien to us. We don't need Visa or Mastercard because our bank issues a card linked to our money? What's a third party involved for?
The biggest culture shock visiting the US is the banking. It's startling to walk into a restaurant and they can't accept my debit card. What? It's my MONEY. No, they only do the credit card companies. So... I have to borrow money to give to the restaurant and pay it back later? What?
So anyway, yeah, banking is very different from country to country. Hopefully the original poster finds a way to give his money to Paizo. Mine is getting lonely there. <Grin>
Pretty much every bank in the US that I have seen issues debit/ATM cards through one of the major credit card companies. That company handles transactions and collects a fee for it, allowing it to be used anywhere that already had the technology for a standard credit card. No system was ever set up to handle national standards on debit transactions, but the credit card providers already had most of the infrastructure in place, so they developed a service for banks to use. Retailers will only accept credit/debit from pre-authorized groups that they already know the fees from, and banks aren't on that list. If a bank doesn't issue debit cards through one of the major providers it puts them at a major disadvantage. Some banks will charge fees for using your debit card in this way though.
Debit Cards in the US are taking out of your bank account immediately the same way. The credit card companies are only processing the transaction as a go between. In fact, even with your credit cards they aren't necessarily with Visa or Mastercard, but could be with a bank like Citi that has a deal with the credit card company to process it. The bank takes the proffit and liability while the credit card company collects fees from the bank. The bank may even have deals with multiple credit card companies so that you have an option of which card to use.
Canada's backwater'ness in this has one advantage, so far it managed to help limit huge debts.
Canada's backwater'ness in this has one advantage, so far it managed to help limit huge debts.
You can't get in debt on a credit card, even if it is authorized by visa or mastercard. They are not linked to credit card accounts, only processed by the same company. You need a seprate credit card to rake up debt.
You can't get in debt on a credit card, even if it is authorized by visa or mastercard. They are not linked to credit card accounts, only processed by the same company. You need a seprate credit card to rake up debt.Canada's backwater'ness in this has one advantage, so far it managed to help limit huge debts.
In Canada (or at least in Quebec), one's ability to get a credit card is tied to his/her incomes (getting the card, increasing its limits, etc), so someone one welfare and the like can't get a CC unless a) it's pre-paid or b) someone is backing him/her... the irony is that if you had one beforehand, you can renew it regardless of incomes (but that can bite you in the ass).
Pretty much every bank in the US that I have seen issues debit/ATM cards through one of the major credit card companies. That company handles transactions and collects a fee for it, allowing it to be used anywhere that already had the technology for a standard credit card. No system was ever set up to handle national standards on debit transactions, but the credit card providers already had most of the infrastructure in place, so they developed a service for banks to use. Retailers will only accept credit/debit from pre-authorized groups that they already know the fees from, and banks aren't on that list. If a bank doesn't issue debit cards through one of the major providers it puts them at a major disadvantage. Some banks will charge fees for using your debit card in this way though.
This is not accurate.
Debit/ATM cards are NOT issued via Visa/MasterCard or credit card companies.
They're issued by the banks themselves.
There are multiple systems setup in place to handle debit transactions on a national level:
Cirrus
Interlink
Co-Op Network
Star
Maestro (owned by MasterCard)
Pulse
Interac
Accel
NYCE
the list goes on.
Most banks are members of multiple systems, and most merchants are members of multiple systems, with the overlap providing near-ubiquitous nationwide coverage. Further, many of the debit networks have agreements with the other debit networks so that even if, for example, you have a Cirrus-only card, you'll typically be able to use it on a Star network ATM or POS device.
The Visa/MasterCard logos are similar, but wholly seperate entity. Not all merchants accept debit cards in the US. Many restaurants and movie theatres don't, for example.
As such, the credit card companies, seeing an untapped revenue source, started working deals with the banks, which resulted in those logos being placed on the cards, and transactions being processed on the credit card systems.
The transaction is still a debit transaction, as far as your account is concerned - you don't get credit benefits.
What you do get, however, is more places to use your card.
This also results in promotional programs that can end up benefiting the cardholder - banks will run reward program promos asking you to use your card as either debit or credit, whichever results in a better fee for them.
Additionally, some merchants will pass debit fees onto the consumer directly, whereas, the agreement of the Visa/MasterCard systems (even for debit transactions) prohibits charging a fee for use.
There are different fees for the merchants themselves - typically debit transactions are cheaper, at least, up to a certain point - especially if they pass that fee on.
(On an unrelated note, but interesting (at least to me), it's also a violation of Visa/MasterCard merchant agreements to request or require photo identification, and instead, are supposed to rely on the signature match only. If the card does not have a valid signature (for example, people that sign their card "CHECK ID", the card is supposed to be refused.)
|
|
In Australia, we only recently (in the last 2-3 years) started rolling out the Visa and Mastercard Debit cards. Most of the cards I see now are visa or mastercard, however there are a few out there that don't have a symbol.
It's not necessarily a credit card, but can be used as one.
No matter how you use it, as a debit or credit card, it still takes funds out of your bank.
The only difference is that with credit, it can take a few days to process.
In Canada (or at least in Quebec), one's ability to get a credit card is tied to his/her incomes (getting the card, increasing its limits, etc), so someone one welfare and the like can't get a CC unless a) it's pre-paid or b) someone is backing him/her... the irony is that if you had one beforehand, you can renew it regardless of incomes (but that can bite you in the ass).You can't get in debt on a credit card, even if it is authorized by visa or mastercard. They are not linked to credit card accounts, only processed by the same company. You need a seprate credit card to rake up debt.Canada's backwater'ness in this has one advantage, so far it managed to help limit huge debts.
Not only that but there is a larger benefit to all of this on the national scale. Due to the fact that Canada only has 5 major national banks (it is 5, I double-checked) all tied to government oversight (this is called Chartered Banking), it has limited the debt of the nation itself. During the 2000's when all of the shadow banking was going on around the world, eventually leading to the 2008 crisis, the Canadian government slapped our banks on the wrist and said no. So when the financial crash hit we came out "relatively" unscathed. Obviously, we still bruised thanks to ripple effects from international trade and economy but, by and large, our banks were completely uninvolved with the toxic trade.
In fact, the World Economic Forum has rated Canada as the #1 most efficient and safest banking system in the world, 3 years running.
It would still be nice to be able to use our debit cards online though.
|
|
Since I became aware of this thread I've checked with a number of people and between the people I've asked so far there are 16 accounts spread over 5 of the 6 major Canadian banks. Not a single one of us has the Visa or Mastercard symbol on our debit cards (though some of the people I asked do have a separate Visa or Mastercard). So I feel some relief, I don't think I'm that out of touch with technology just yet. It looks like Canada still doesn't use this debit-as-credit system. At least not around me anyway.
They actually changed the rules recently, and you can now get Debit cards with the Visa/Mastercard logo. Debit cards, not credit cards. I've got one, my wife got one, and my Mom got one (TD Canada Trust and CIBC). There were some old banking rules that were keeping them from rolling it out (and considering what happened in the States when they played around too much with banking regulations, I can't say I'm sorry), but the real reason is Interac. Interac makes BIG money for the big 5 banks, and for the longest time they pushed it HARD, meaning Canada was using debit FAR more per capita than the States, for years. It was just hard for the banks to let go.
[edit] et viola!
"the English beat the French, made a country and let some of the Frenchmen stay in part of it."
Sad but so true...
Tell that to the Cajuns.
Thank you. :)
Ha ha ha. Comprenez vous le Français?
Thanks for the heads up, Uriel, that's good news. Hopefully the rest of the banks will follow suite. I'm with BMO and I've got a good thing going with them so I'd hate to switch. I'm patient so I'm willing to wait for a bit.
Yeah, it sucks that so many Acadians were deported to Louisiana. But many were able to stay as well. I'm from the Maritimes and I can assure you that our Acadian population is alive and well.
As another point of note, to those who say that debit cards are simply run by the credit card companies (or some such) in the USA...I work for a grocery store that does not accept credit cards. At all. Debit cards? They work great! We love them. But we cannot run credit cards in any way, shape or form, because we don't have access to the credit system. And this sucks for people who drop by from Canada or other countries, because their debit cards run as credit cards in the USA...go figure, eh?
|
|
That's because the Debit cards need a framework to operate. I believe in the States it's called "Plus"? Someone has to pay for the framework (either a collection of banks, or the credit card companies), and then pass the associated costs (plus their profit margins) onto customers, vendors, or both.
When Debit cards came out, people called them a suckers' bet because they charged the end user (the customer) a "convenience fee" to use them, whereas Credit cards just charged the vendor. Now, with people trying to avoid/lower their Credit balances, they move more to Debit cards.
For myself, I'd rather Paizo support Bitcoin, but that's just me.
|
Then there's the insanity that is the American banking system. Let me get this straight... little Mom & Pop banks that only exist in one city or state? Debit cards that are really just credit cards with a different name on them? Madness.
Here (Canada) we have about a dozen major banks and they're basically nation-wide. We do have "credit unions" which are local financial institutions that let groups of like-minded individuals support one another. But all of them are linked electronically, so a debit card from any of them - regardless of size - is accepted at any retail establishment.
More, our debit cards are debit cards. They're like cash. If I have $X in my bank account, I use my debit card to remove $Y from that account and put it into a retailer's account, as long as $Y is not greater than $X. I cannot over-spend. I cannot borrow. A debit card is my money, in plastic form. Our credit cards are exactly like American credit cards but the idea of getting a Visa debit card is very alien to us. We don't need Visa or Mastercard because our bank issues a card linked to our money? What's a third party involved for?
The biggest culture shock visiting the US is the banking. It's startling to walk into a restaurant and they can't accept my debit card. What? It's my MONEY. No, they only do the credit card companies. So... I have to borrow money to give to the restaurant and pay it back later? What?
So anyway, yeah, banking is very different from country to country. Hopefully the original poster finds a way to give his money to Paizo. Mine is getting lonely there. <Grin>
I love my regional bank (Sun) and will never ever go back to a big bank like BofA