How to Upgrade Your Gear in PFS.


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Silver Crusade 4/5

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Add the Masterwork after the cold iron.

If you look here There's a Masterwork Cold Iron Longsword as an example.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Somewhere in the PRD I read that adding magical enhancements to a cold iron weapon adds 2000 GP to the cost. That just happens to be the cost for adding a +1 magical enhancement to any weapon. So does a +1 magical cold iron longsword cost 2330 GP, or 4330 GP?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

4330gp.

1/5

captnchuck67 wrote:

Okay I am going to sound like a dope but I want to do this correctly and for the lowest cost.

I want to purchase a MW cold iron weapon. How do I do the math?
Do I add the MW cost then multiple for t he Cold Iron or the reverse?

The way everyone does it, so I assume it is the official way, is multiply the base cost and then add the 300gp for masterwork.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Traditionally, on Earth, a "masterwork" item was one made by a journeyman crafter as part of the requirements for elevation to master in his guild. The work would be examined and approved by some number of masters. Items made by a master were not, afaik, referred to as "masterworks," but I suppose they could be.

Actually, if I had my druthers, the cost of buying a masterwork item would depend on the skill level of the craftsman making it, rather than just being double the cost to make it. Or is the cost to make it half the cost of buying it? Anyway, the whole crafting system leaves a lot to be desired in my mind.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Its kind of irrelevant because nothing matters till the wizard makes with the ickity ackety ook on it

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
captnchuck67 wrote:

Okay I am going to sound like a dope but I want to do this correctly and for the lowest cost.

I want to purchase a MW cold iron weapon. How do I do the math?
Do I add the MW cost then multiple for t he Cold Iron or the reverse?

We are all learning in life.

My understanding is you get the cold iron part first (as a construction material) and then the masterwork represents the forging of it.

It's a bit confusing, though, because the masterwork part for most other unusual construction materials is 'cooked in' to the price of getting the item of that material...

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
captnchuck67 wrote:

Okay I am going to sound like a dope but I want to do this correctly and for the lowest cost.

I want to purchase a MW cold iron weapon. How do I do the math?
Do I add the MW cost then multiple for t he Cold Iron or the reverse?

We are all learning in life.

My understanding is you get the cold iron part first (as a construction material) and then the masterwork represents the forging of it.

It's a bit confusing, though, because the masterwork part for most other unusual construction materials is 'cooked in' to the price of getting the item of that material...

Not on all of them.

List of Pathfinder Special Materials:
Adamantine - Yes
Darkwood - Sort of, in that it requires the item to be masterwork, then add the cost per pound of darkwood to the masterwork item cost.
Dragonhide - only tangentially, but it also explicitly increases the masterwork cost.
Cold Iron - not masterwork, only doubles base cost. And costs an extra 2,000 gp to add magical enhancements to it, assuming it was masterwork to begin with. Just once, not every time, though.
Mithral - Yes
Alchemical silver - No
Darkleaf cloth - Yes
Wyroot - Uncertain, but not PFS legal.
Whipwood - Unspecified, but not PFS legal.
Angelskin - Yes, but not PFS legal.
Blood Crystal - Unspecified
Eel Hide - Yes
Elysian Bronze - Unspecified
Fire-Forged Steel - Yes
Frost-Forged Steel - Yes
Greenwood - Sort of, in that it requires the item to be masterwork, then add the cost per pound of greenwood to the masterwork item cost.
Griffon Mane - Unspecified
Living Steel - Unspecified, but not PFS legal
Viridium - Unspecified
Bone - No
Bronze - No
Gold - No, it looks like, nothing explicitly specified.
Obsidian - No
Stone - No.

These are the special materials form the PRD, not from all the splatbooks.

I know, off the top of my head, because I use it, that the silversheen material from the Qadira (I think, might be Osirion) sourcebook includes masterwork cost in its price.


I assume it's instantaneous, since I can't find anything about it, but can you confirm upgrading your magical items in PFS takes no time (i.e. it's just like purchasing new equipment, just a little cheaper), or do you have to spend downtime to do it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Josh Spies wrote:
Actually, you can make chainmail out of gold, it just has ten times the base cost, and it's much worse as armor (-2 armor bonus, increases ACP by 2) and it's more fragile with a hardness of 5. From Ultimate Combat, page 147.

Celestial Armor isn't made out of ordinary gold or silver, but a magical celestial material which combines the look of both, and is more flexible and lighter than mithral. You can't "upgrade" to it, save by the traditional method of selling your old armor and taking half value towards the purchase of the new.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

forger42 wrote:
I assume it's instantaneous, since I can't find anything about it, but can you confirm upgrading your magical items in PFS takes no time (i.e. it's just like purchasing new equipment, just a little cheaper), or do you have to spend downtime to do it?

Interesting question. I always assumed that "downtime" and time between adventures were the same...

I have always handled the upgrading of gear as something that happens between the calls of the Venture Captains.

Silver Crusade 5/5

forger42 wrote:
I assume it's instantaneous, since I can't find anything about it, but can you confirm upgrading your magical items in PFS takes no time (i.e. it's just like purchasing new equipment, just a little cheaper), or do you have to spend downtime to do it?

There's no waiting for magic items, and there is an indefinate amount of time between each scenario. If you want some rationale, you can just think of it as paying the difference for an upgrade, taking your old item to the Pathfinder Society's armory and swapping it out for the upgraded item.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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LazarX wrote:
Josh Spies wrote:
Actually, you can make chainmail out of gold, it just has ten times the base cost, and it's much worse as armor (-2 armor bonus, increases ACP by 2) and it's more fragile with a hardness of 5. From Ultimate Combat, page 147.
Celestial Armor isn't made out of ordinary gold or silver, but a magical celestial material which combines the look of both, and is more flexible and lighter than mithral. You can't "upgrade" to it, save by the traditional method of selling your old armor and taking half value towards the purchase of the new.

You do realize you're responding to a three year old post, right?

Sovereign Court 1/5

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Not sure if I'm interpreting this right, so hopefully someone can clarify.

It seems to me that wizards who upgrade their bonded item have very limited choices. According to the faq "the caster must meet all prerequisites for the item as outlined in the item crafting rules". Doesn't this eliminate single class wizards from upgrading to eg.:

*Ring of Protection (needs Shield of Faith)
*Amulet of Natural Armor (needs Barkskin)

Since normal crafting rules aren't allowed, things like using a scroll or getting help from someone else who does have access to those spells can't be used. So two of the 'big six' items are not viable options unless the wizard multi-classes ... or am I being overly strict in my interpretation?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

You may forgo some prerequisites by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5 per prerequisite missed.

The only exception is having a sufficient Caster Level to qualify for the requisite crafting feat.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Nefreet wrote:

You may forgo some prerequisites by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5 per prerequisite missed.

The only exception is having a sufficient Caster Level to qualify for the requisite crafting feat.

So then a spellcraft check is required as per normal crafting rules?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Yes, which means you may also Take 10.

Edit: unless your table GM believes that disallowing the Take 10 mechanic adds to the drama or suspense of the game.

4/5

For upgrading there are very limited choices in PFS. Rings cost *2 in general so that leaves you with the Amulet of Natural Armor as a cost effective upgradeable item.

There are some other choices.

Your upgrade path IS IMPORTANT. So with bonded objects you could lose a lot of cash (more than normal) by jumping around as you cannot sell the item, that gold value is lost.

Probably the most useful amulets are the extra spell levels per day ones; Amulet of Spell Cunning (3 spell levels) silver $10000 APG, Amulet of Spell Mastery (6 spell levels) platinum $22000 Ult Equip. Due to the different metals you cannot upgrade one into another AND since they are "named" items. Named magic items in PFS are not upgradeable. Secondly there is nothing you can upgrade into those 2 items. So going for one of these means you must wait... and wait... as pretty much that's gonna be the only crafted magical amulet you ever wear in PFS.
Back in post 203 of this thread this subject popped up and the FAQ has not been changed to allow that upgrade path. A change about materials would also effect "celestial armor" and that avenue is a no go currently.

Alternatively you could make an amulet with Shield of Faith as an upgradeable item.

I believe you could make something complicated like a Amulet with Barkskin {cmmd} 2@4 3/d ($8*1800*(3/5)*(0.6)/2=$2592) or Shield {cmmd} 1@1 ($1*1800*(0.6)/2=$540), then Mage Armor {cmmd} 1@8 3/d (+$8*1800*(3/5)*1.5*(0.6)(no /2 as it's not an upgrade scalar)=+$7776), and lastly Infernal Healing 1@1 continuous (+$2000*2*4*1.5*(0.6)=+$14400 OR $5000*1.5*(0.6)=+$4500 if you take on the Boots of the Earth abilities) usable by wizards only(-30%) with spellcraft (-10%) as you go up levels (discount is figured into prices above). As it's not an upgrade scalar it may not be upgradeable at all but you should be able to upgrade without the half price discount... we'll see what others think.

1/5

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As far as I'm aware you have to upgrade the bonded item into something that is listed for sale in some book somewhere and none of that stuff is.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The first half of that post was correct, but as Jessex mentions customizing items is not allowed in PFS.

4/5

now that you say it I remember that... which would disallow the Shield of Faith Amulet or last item... but for some reason my quick scan of PFSGGG upgrade rules didn't remind me of that.

So... in a quick run down of scalable "amulet"s that would be upgradeable;
Amulet of Bullet Protection {divine favor} 1500(+1), 6000(+2)...
Amulet of Natural Armor {barkskin} 2000(+1), 8000(+2)...
Amulet of Mighty Fists {grt magic fang} 4000(+1), 16000(+2)...

The more I ponder the more I wonder if a Wand focus might not be worth it... but that's another thread.


You can use this tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDBCB5kBnQI


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Thx, this was helpful!

Liberty's Edge

Awesome! Quite useful!

Grand Lodge

Simple question here.

Is the Bombchucker from the Monster Codex enchantable?

It is not a weapon per se, but it uses bombs or alchemical weapons as ammunition, and increases their effective range.

I have looked about and never found a clear answer, although I would lean towards no, the same thing could be said for a sling or bow, hence the question.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Daniel Pink wrote:

Simple question here.

Is the Bombchucker from the Monster Codex enchantable?

It is not a weapon per se, but it uses bombs or alchemical weapons as ammunition, and increases their effective range.

I have looked about and never found a clear answer, although I would lean towards no, the same thing could be said for a sling or bow, hence the question.

Bombchucker

My opinion is that since it isn't a weapon, you can't enchant it. I'd suggest adding this question to the campaign clarification request thread.

5/5 * Venture-Lieutenant, Spain—Madrid

Hi

I have just finished “All for Immortality” series and in last scenario I have found a handful of very useful items:

Aspis Special Items:
Badge of the Charlatan: (Discounted price 35,000 gp; CL 5th, aura none) This gold Aspis badge simultaneously provides all benefits of a ring of invisibility and a hat of disguise. As a standard action, the wielder can transform it into any other badge of authority with which she is familiar. The badge is under a constant greater magic auraUI effect to appear nonmagical.

Belt of Many Forms (Discounted price 40,000 gp; CL 8th; aura moderate transmutation) This flexible belt provides a +6 enhancement bonus to your choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. You may change the bonus granted to another ability score once per day as a standard action, treating it as a temporary bonus for the first 24 hours afterword. The belt also grants additional benefits depending upon the ability score selected, granting all of the benefits of the one of the following items: belt of the weaselUE (Dex), elemental earth beltUE (Con), or minotaur beltUE (Str).

Headband of Mental Adaptability (Discounted price 40,000 gp; CL 8th; aura moderate transmutation) This headband functions as a the belt of many forms above, except it grants its +6 enhancement bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and it grants the benefits of one of the following items: headband of ponderous recollectionUE (Int), headband of unshakable resolveUE (Wis), or rod of splendor (Cha). The skills granted by the Intelligence option are fixed at the time of creation (one of which must be a Knowledge skill).

Can I upgrade to these items from “normal” ones like a hat of disguise, a belt of incredible dexterity or a headband of Alluring Charisma?

1/5

So with the recent change in how to upgrade items in PFS I feel like the original post needs to be updated or a new thread needs to be made stickied.

For reference:

the new FAQ entry:
What are the rules for upgrading weapons, armor, and wondrous items?

You may upgrade one weapon, armor, or wondrous item to another as long as the new item occupies the same slot, is made of the same material, has the same general shape, and has all of the abilities of the original item. For example, you can upgrade a +1 longsword into a +1 frost longsword or a cloak of resistance +1 into a cloak of resistance +2. You may also upgrade a magic weapon or armor into one of the named weapons or armors, such as upgrading a +1 banded mail into a banded mail of luck. As another example, you can upgrade a belt of incredible dexterity +2 into a belt of the weasel from Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Equipment , which grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity as well as other benefits.

To upgrade a magic item, pay the difference in price between the new item and the original item.

I also have questions on this as do several others.

1. Can you upgrade a Bag of Holding Type I to a Bag of Holding Type II?

2. Can you upgrade +3 chainmail to Celestial Armor?
I ask because throughout several editions of this game many people have assumed that Celestial Armor was made of Mithral even though it doesn't say this in the description. So that leaves the question open for other items like Rhino Hide armor. Does the original armor have to be made out of rhino hide to be able to upgrade it to Rhino Hide?

3. Can you upgrade Celestial Armor to +4 Celestial Armor?
The rules seem to indicate that you can. Pricing should be pretty easy to determine. I will admit, I really want this to be true as there hasn't existed a Pathfinder game I have played outside of PFS where this wasn't allowed.

4. Can you upgrade Rhino Hide to Mammoth Hide (from Inner Sea Combat)?
It is true that it is not made of the same material but it even mentions in the text of the item "Made of tattered mammoth hide and bone, this +3 hide armor is similar to rhino hide, but is fashioned in the harsh lands of the mammoth lords using beasts common to that region."

5. What about cracked and flawed Ioun Stones?
Several of them offer the same type of bonus as their normal counterpart but not to all scores or abilities. In these circumstances can you upgrade from a cracked to a flawed and finally to the normal Ioun stone by paying the difference in cost? I assume at least that the versions that that offer different bonus types are out due to not being like the original enough.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1. Can you upgrade a Bag of Holding Type I to a Bag of Holding Type II?

as the new item occupies the same slot: slotless. Most likely counts as the same slot

is made of the same material bag. Stuff. So yes.

has the same general shape: bag shape.

and has all of the abilities of the original item: holds stuff. So yes.

2. Can you upgrade +3 chainmail to Celestial Armor?

Celestial armor appears to be made of.. celestial armor stuff.

3. Can you upgrade Celestial Armor to +4 Celestial Armor?

Thats very much a no, because (paraphrasing a number of pfs posts) we don't know the pricing scheme on celestial armors abilities: you can get to the same price through exponents, additions, or ad hoc and which way the armor did that would affect how the pricing scales.

4. Can you upgrade Rhino Hide to Mammoth Hide (from Inner Sea Combat)?

That one should work.

Make it from wooly rhino, meets both descriptions. (the faq also says same basic material so.. close enough

they have the same powers, mammoth hide even calls back to working like rhino hide.

5. What about cracked and flawed Ioun Stones?

Rather than go through every single stone i think we may need the sanity of a no here?

edit: or we could extrapolate from the above answers on a case by case basis. Resonance is something that gets added I suppose

1/5

BNW:
1. To be fair this was originally your question. I dig that you have now established your opinion but are you ready to lay money down on that opinion? Are you positive that the other GMs you play under will have the same opinion and won't tell you that you made an illegal purchase? I agree with your assessment, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here.

2. See, I couldn't find anywhere in the Celestial Armor description that talked about what it was made of so I assumed that it was made of the same thing that normal chainmail was made of.

3. Where are you getting that from? I mean, I know you said you are paraphrasing posts but I was under the impression that the new FAQ specifically allowed for upgrading to existing named items. Reverse engineering Celestial Armor or pretty much any magic item is pretty easy. Most of us have been doing that for years.

4. See, I'm actually slightly on the other side of this one. While you could say that it could be made of wooly rhino fur I could see a GM making the judgement that Mammoth Hide is made of mammoth hide. I mean, I want it to work but there is enough ambiguity that I wouldn't spend money on it without a ruling. Would you?

5. Well, I agree with you here too. But for me it is more about requiring a change in their actual physical makeup. And yeah, Ioun Stones are a muddy issue.

More than anything I think that there needs to be a bit of clarity in light of the recent FAQ as it opened up a few questions. The way I read the rules in both the Guide and FAQ seems to allow for the upgrading of specific named items. I see nothing barring that and rules which state that it is allowed as they meet the requirements laid out. Pre-FAQ posts notwithstanding.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

I think creating a new thread and unsticky the original thread would be the best idea. The only problem is that requires someone go through and create a new thread with all the information from the old thread. :(

I agree with BNW's answers on 1-4.

Question 5, the Ioun Stones, I would say no.

Cracked or Flawed stones are sub-standard quality.

It would be like trying to trade in a manufacturer's defect for a normal product. Sorry, you bought it at a cut rate knowing it was sub-standard. If we could have fixed it, we would have done so and sold it at full price.

I would not allow it for the same reason you can't upgrade a normal quality weapon or armor to a masterwork quality one.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

BretI wrote:
I would not allow it for the same reason you can't upgrade a normal quality weapon or armor to a masterwork quality one.

I want to start by saying I agree with you.

But there is a spell that makes a normal quality item into a masterwork quality item. Why not use the same concept on cracked or flawed stones?

A Make Whole spell or something that would work on them.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha

Lune wrote:
3. Where are you getting that from? I mean, I know you said you are paraphrasing posts but I was under the impression that the new FAQ specifically allowed for upgrading to existing named items. Reverse engineering Celestial Armor or pretty much any magic item is pretty easy. Most of us have been doing that for years.

You should read the comment thread attached to the blog post announcing this FAQ update. Specifically, John Compton's posts.

1/5

I did. Not sure how I missed that one post. I do, however, feel that when he says "...the current FAQ wording does not support upgrading the weapon into a +5 Dawnfire." that I am not the only one who disagrees. The current wording very much looks like it DOES support that and I am apparently not alone in this judgement. Alexander Augunas posted a few times in that thread with the same concerns I had and he is a designer.

This is further proof that it needs clarification.

And honestly, saying that there is no way to price such an upgrade is just patently false. It is pretty easy to deconstruct special item pricing. Dawnflower is no exception. Alex even spells it out in his very next post.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha

Lune wrote:

I did. Not sure how I missed that one post. I do, however, feel that when he says "...the current FAQ wording does not support upgrading the weapon into a +5 Dawnfire." that I am not the only one who disagrees. The current wording very much looks like it DOES support that and I am apparently not alone in this judgement. Alexander Augunas posted a few times in that thread with the same concerns I had and he is a designer.

This is further proof that it needs clarification.

And honestly, saying that there is no way to price such an upgrade is just patently false. It is pretty easy to deconstruct special item pricing. Dawnflower is no exception. Alex even spells it out in his very next post.

Alex is clever and enthusiastic and a lot of other things, but he is not a Paizo designer. You can check the label next to his name to see that.

The wording of the FAQ very clearly says you can upgrade into a named item. It very obviously has nothing to say about upgrades to a named item. John reaffirms that in his post and very handily describes why Alex's proposal is not quite appropriate for an organized play setting.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Lune wrote:

BNW:

1. To be fair this was originally your question. I dig that you have now established your opinion but are you ready to lay money down on that opinion? Are you positive that the other GMs you play under will have the same opinion and won't tell you that you made an illegal purchase? I agree with your assessment, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here.

Not yet but i'm getting there.

I'm pretty sure they can't read my handwriting on my ITS sheet well enough to question it anyway...

Quote:
2. See, I couldn't find anywhere in the Celestial Armor description that talked about what it was made of so I assumed that it was made of the same thing that normal chainmail was made of.

I recall a number of threads where the material it was made out of meant that there was no upgrade path into it.

There is no upgrade path into celestial armor under the old rules. Under the old rules i didn't see any way it wouldn't be legal EXCEPT under the materials clause.

3. Where are you getting that from?

others linked to it. I have seen the same sentiment expressed a number of times. Really not feeling good or i could link spam, but trust me i can link spam if need be.

4. See, I'm actually slightly on the other side of this one. While you could say that it could be made of wooly rhino fur I could see a GM making the judgement that Mammoth Hide is made of mammoth hide. I mean, I want it to work but there is enough ambiguity that I wouldn't spend money on it without a ruling. Would you?

Yes, i would.

1) the faq calls for "same general type of material" which critter hide is general type. 1) If you're talking about what species it came from you're WAY past general type and into specific type and 2) even then, a wooly rhino would meet the description of both. (yay multiclass megaphaunaphile rules lawyer)

5. Well, I agree with you here too. But for me it is more about requiring a change in their actual physical makeup. And yeah, Ioun Stones are a muddy issue.

They also have the unique quandary of being specifically busted.

Quote:


More than anything I think that there needs to be a bit of clarity in light of the recent FAQ as it opened up a few questions.

Definitely. but relax. its only been out a few days. Any time there's a new clarification it requires clarifying.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Lune wrote:

I did. Not sure how I missed that one post. I do, however, feel that when he says "...the current FAQ wording does not support upgrading the weapon into a +5 Dawnfire." that I am not the only one who disagrees. The current wording very much looks like it DOES support that and I am apparently not alone in this judgement. Alexander Augunas posted a few times in that thread with the same concerns I had and he is a designer.

This is further proof that it needs clarification.

And honestly, saying that there is no way to price such an upgrade is just patently false. It is pretty easy to deconstruct special item pricing. Dawnflower is no exception. Alex even spells it out in his very next post.

I understand what you're getting at and, but items don't always follow the referenced calculation process for any number of reasons. The dagger of venom has the same price as a +2 dagger, but is that because the ability was assessed to be worth 6,000 gp or because the venom ability was a stealth +1 ability? The difference would mean the difference between paying 6,000 gp or 10,000 gp to upgrade it into a +2 dagger of venom. Similar things happen with the lash of the howler, the shieldsplitter lance, and even others that don't necessarily match the standard progression pricing structure. Other items have their market price adjusted from what Table 15–29 on page 550 of the Core Rulebook would suggest during development because that brought the cost to a certain price point for the sake of accessibility or because it better matched other items in that price range, whereas adjusting that value to increase the enhancement bonus might break that calculation in some way.

Alex Augunas's formula makes sense; it's practically identical to one pitched internally years ago. It works for some items. It doesn't account for how all of these items are priced and why. That means applying the calculation universally would not work for the organized play campaign.

1/5

KingOfAnything: Alex is a designer. He has designed some of my favorite content, in fact. I also agree with him here. For example he was the coauthor of Weapon Master's Handbook among other things. He also designs a fair amount of third party content. Mad props to you again, Alex. :)

BNW: Well, I respect that you stick to your opinions especially because I mostly agree with them. I think the only one we disagree on is the Mammoth Hide but I would rather it work the way you say.

1/5

John Compton: While I understand what you are getting at I'm pretty sure I can successfully reverse engineer any of the items you are referring to. With the example of the Dagger of Venom it seems like an easy answer: is it something that appears on the list of weapon enhancements? No. So it is a special ability and has a price that doesn't correspond to a weapon enhancement bonus.

I mean, I kinda think that Alex's method does work for all items. It doesn't account for why, but I'm having trouble finding how it doesn't work.

I'm not going to badger you on the point especially being that others have already tried to convince leadership. If Alex is unable to sway your opinion then I doubt I will be able to. So, I guess just throw my name into the list of people who would really like to see this happen. Hey, you could always add it to a chronicle sheet, right?

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

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Lune wrote:
So, I guess just throw my name into the list of people who would really like to see this happen. Hey, you could always add it to a chronicle sheet, right?

Throw my name on the list of people still so excited by more favorable upgrade rules that he doesn't mind there are still items that can not be upgraded.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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A +3 dagger of venom sounds like a good chronicle sheet item..

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Lune wrote:

John Compton: While I understand what you are getting at I'm pretty sure I can successfully reverse engineer any of the items you are referring to. With the example of the Dagger of Venom it seems like an easy answer: is it something that appears on the list of weapon enhancements? No. So it is a special ability and has a price that doesn't correspond to a weapon enhancement bonus.

I mean, I kinda think that Alex's method does work for all items. It doesn't account for why, but I'm having trouble finding how it doesn't work.

Your dagger of venom interpretation of the could be correct, or it might be mistaken; making that call would be one that I'd run by several colleagues, which is a process I would need to repeat for every special weapon/armor. In the case of some custom magical weapons and armor, I know that there has been variation from Table 15-29 because the item's then-current price was deemed right because there was not an assumed means by which to increase the weapon's enhancement modifier. In both cases I've either sat alongside somebody who was determining that right price for a new item or I've been the one doing it. There are other special weapons and armors for which I'm not familiar with the exact methodology by which it was determined, and while I have the luxury of being able to ask my colleagues about most of these, that can readily translate into a complex list of which special weapons one is allowed to enhance in the organized play program and which weapons one cannot adjust. It's not a path we're exploring.

Quote:
I'm not going to badger you on the point especially being that others have already tried to convince leadership. If Alex is unable to sway your opinion then I doubt I will be able to. So, I guess just throw my name into the list of people who would really like to see this happen. Hey, you could always add it to a chronicle sheet, right?

Linda and I have already added a number of variations on special weapons and armor to Chronicle sheets, including at least one that involved some flexibility in how it's applied. We'll likely include more in the future, and in each case, we examine what the correct price should be in terms of a) what the upgrade should be worth and b) whether we want to subsidize that cost somewhat to make a fun item more accessible.

In fact, we've even included a more powerful dagger of venom.

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What about just items from the Core Rulebook? *puppy dog eyes*

While I have your ear on the topic I have a question about the way upgrading to Celestial Armor would work. I'm almost sorry for asking this as it has been a bur in the rules for years before Pathfinder. Lets say I have +3 Mithral Chainmail and I want to upgrade that into Celestial Armor. ...what is the armor's Max Dex Bonus?

Or can that just not be done because Celestial Armor isn't made out of Mithral? Or is it already made out of Mithral which accounts for it's already crazy high Max Dex thus meaning you would HAVE to make the base item out of Mithral?

In my case this isn't just academic. I will likely be doing this with one of my characters. Or at least considering it.

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Celestial Armor isn't made out of Mithral.

Thus +3 Mithral Chainmail cannot be upgraded into it.

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Could Celestial Armor ever be made of Mithral?

Could you upgrade Elven Chain into Celestial Armor?

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No.

Celestial Armor isn't made out of Mithral.

Thus Elven Chain cannot be upgraded into it.

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Pirate Rob wrote:

No.

Celestial Armor isn't made out of Mithral.

Thus Elven Chain cannot be upgraded into it.

See... my issue here with this is that not everyone seems to agree on this.

BNW wrote:

2. Can you upgrade +3 chainmail to Celestial Armor?

Celestial armor appears to be made of.. celestial armor stuff.

Being that the new ruling states that both items have to be made of the same material there are people who think that Celestial Armor is made out of something different than what normal chainmail is made out of.

So then it comes down to how granular the ruling is. Does it mean that both things have to be made out of the same general material? Like: cloth, wood, metal, hide? Or that it has to be made out of the exact same material. Like: steel, mithral, rhino hide, mammoth hide.

BNW seems to be of two minds on this. For Celestial Armor he thinks that it has to be made out of the same exact specific material. But for Mammoth hide the difference between rhino hide and mammoth (or wooly rhino hide) seems to be moot.

So if it doesn't have to be made of the same exact material then things like mithral chainmail should work. So too should things like Elven Chain even though it is a different specific item. On the other hand if it has to be made of the same exact material then you cannot upgrade Rhino Hide armor to Mammoth Hide armor and it leaves chainmail on shaky ground as well as some people believe that Celestial Armor is made out of "celestial armor stuff".

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Also, regarding the bit about not being able to reverse engineer items and thus not being able to upgrade specific items:

If we are currently allowed to upgrade items by finding the cost of the base item (+3 chainmail) and then paying the cost difference between that and the specific item (Celestial Armor) didn't we just reverse engineer the item?

So if the cost of +3 chainmail is 9300.
And the cost of Celestial Armor is 22,400.
Then the price difference between the two is 13,100.

We know the price difference, so we know how much we need to add to 9300 to get to Celestial Armor. Using the same price difference we can determine that upgrading from normal Celestial Armor to +4 Celestial Armor we would need to spend enough to upgrade the basic portion of the item from +3 to +4 is 7000.

A +1 dagger costs 2302.
A Dagger of Venom costs 8302.
The price difference between the two is 6000.

Now that we know the price difference we can determine how much we need to add to get to 8302 to get a Dagger of Venom. If we can reverse engineer that then we also know that the cost to upgrade a +1 dagger to a +2 dagger is 6000. We don't care that it is coincidence that both the cost to upgrade a +1 weapon to +2 is the same price it costs to upgrade a +1 dagger to Dagger of Venom. This doesn't matter for determining the cost of upgrading a Dagger of Venom to a +2 Dagger of Venom.

I'm sure we have all been doing this in home games for years. Dagger of Venom isn't any more difficult. Maybe I am being incredibly dense or missing some vital part of why this same method doesn't work for other items. I understand if the answer for PFS is just "No. We aren't doing it." But if the reason is because the math doesn't work, well... please excuse my skepticism but I'm not seeing it.

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Lune, can you just drop it please? You've already had leadership explain why they aren't going to do it.

The dagger of venom bonus could be an effective +1 cost, flat 6000gp, a 3.6 increase in price. So all three versions results in different costs for a +2 dagger of venom. If the venom is an effective +1 cost than a +2 DoV is 18000 total, the price of a +3 weapon. If it's a flat 6000gp then the price is 12000gp. If it's 3.6 times the previous price then it's almost 30000gp. Very different prices. Plus it's possible that they give a discount to the abilities BECAUSE they know it can never be upgraded.

So can you PROVE or PROVIDE RULES to explain which of the 3 versions were used to get the price of the dagger of venom to be able to extrapolate to get the +2 version? Because which version is used greatly changes the price of the item.

EDIT:
The reason it works for building into the item currently is we don't need to know the method for getting the price because we already have the price of the item. We know the price is 6000 more because we know the price of the end item regardless of method.

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Lune wrote:
BNW seems to be of two minds on this. For Celestial Armor he thinks that it has to be made out of the same exact specific material. But for Mammoth hide the difference between rhino hide and mammoth (or wooly rhino hide) seems to be moot.

It's one mind, Thank you. We have different stats for mithral armor and other metals. Mithral and steel are both "metal" but they have vastly different rules and thus are not the same general material. The rules do not distinguish between wooly mammoth and rhino hides. They both make the same kinds of armor with the same stats, so they are the same general kind of material.

The old rules allowed armor upgrades, but did not allow upgrades into celestial armor. Why is that if it's not the materials clause?

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