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Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..What if that party tank is me, and I *do* spend my own charges on that healing, and then other party members want me to spend some on them as well?
So what? It's 15 gp or 0.04 PP per charge.
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Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..
Bolding mine.
That's not necessarily true, though. Rukk, as you've mentioned, does not have a high AC. So he's going to be prone to taking more damage than the average high AC frontline character, and he has the hit points to allow for that. Were the attacks that are directed at Rukk instead directed at a high AC character, like my sometimes 40AC Monk, or even a Sorcerer with Displacement, maybe only half of those hit points are absorbed, and thus only half of the healing required.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your Barbarian's build. From all the posts I've seen about him, I think he's an awesome character who is greatly appreciated by his teammates, and I'd love to end up at a table with him someday. But don't you think the choice to build a character that will get hit a lot and relies on having lots of hit points so you don't have to have a big AC (or spend the money to get one) should also include some way to restore some of those hit points? Maybe the group chips in. It's the right thing to do. But one would hope Rukk is happy to chip in as well (as I know he is from the Magic Stick comment earlier).
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So what? It's 15 gp or 0.04 PP per charge.Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..What if that party tank is me, and I *do* spend my own charges on that healing, and then other party members want me to spend some on them as well?
So to be clear:
If I'm the tank, and you're playing say a wizard or magus, and I turn to you and say "Hey, I saw you had a healing wand; could you patch me up? I'm down about a hundred."You'd be cool with that? Burn those charges without a second thought?
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So what? It's 15 gp or 0.04 PP per charge.Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..What if that party tank is me, and I *do* spend my own charges on that healing, and then other party members want me to spend some on them as well?So to be clear:
If I'm the tank, and you're playing say a wizard or magus, and I turn to you and say "Hey, I saw you had a healing wand; could you patch me up? I'm down about a hundred."You'd be cool with that? Burn those charges without a second thought?
Sure, why not?
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So what? It's 15 gp or 0.04 PP per charge.Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..What if that party tank is me, and I *do* spend my own charges on that healing, and then other party members want me to spend some on them as well?So to be clear:
If I'm the tank, and you're playing say a wizard or magus, and I turn to you and say "Hey, I saw you had a healing wand; could you patch me up? I'm down about a hundred."You'd be cool with that? Burn those charges without a second thought?
And as a followup, I'm the Sorcerer, and the party is ambushed from behind and I take 100 hps of damage (I'm a high hp Sorcerer). I see that the tank has a wand, and I turn to him and say, "Hey, I saw you had a healing wand; could you patch me up? I'm down about a hundred."
Again, personally, I'll always do what it takes to keep the party as close to max hps between battles as possible, no matter what type of character I'm running. I'll spend whatever resources I need to in order to do that. But that doesn't mean I think a character that never provides for any of their own healing is truly cooperating with the team.
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But that doesn't mean I think a character that never provides for any of their own healing is truly cooperating with the team.Would you think twice about getting into another game with the "character that never provides for any of their own healing"? if you had the option, would you play move to a different table?
Man... that really depends on so many factors other than whether or not the character spent prestige on a wand. I'm of the opinion that people come to PFS to have fun. That's why I do it. So, I'm unlikely to ever walk from a table unless I'm just not having fun, or my presence is preventing others from having fun. A few hundred gold here or there does not ruin my fun. I think that's Kyle's point in all of this, and I do agree with him there if it is.
There are also people behind the characters, and the way the person conducts themselves, their age, whether they've had a bad day, whether I've had a bad day... all those things are more important than how a character is built. If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time. If a player shows up and starts bullying people into healing his character (something I've never seen, by the way, and hope I never do), I don't know. I might say something, or nudge the GM into helping with the situation.
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You'd be cool with that? Burn those charges without a second thought?
Absolutely. If I don't, I've spent 2PP for absolutely no reason.
As to not tabling with that player again, yes there are people who I go out of my way to avoid. None of them are because of refusing to purchase a wand.
... If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time. If a player shows up and starts bullying people into healing his character (something I've never seen, by the way, and hope I never do), I don't know. I might say something, or nudge the GM into helping with the situation.thank you for your thoughtful answers.
I esp. liked your observation "If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time." I also hope they learn.
Agreed. But by the 3rd or 5th or umpteenth time they show up unprepared for anything, I tend to be much less willing to help them out.
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Agreed. But by the 3rd or 5th or umpteenth time they show up unprepared for anything, I tend to be much less willing to help them out.... If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time. If a player shows up and starts bullying people into healing his character (something I've never seen, by the way, and hope I never do), I don't know. I might say something, or nudge the GM into helping with the situation.thank you for your thoughtful answers.
I esp. liked your observation "If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time." I also hope they learn.
I've thankfully yet to have this happen repeatedly.
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It is interesting that everyone in this thread who is telling us that we should provide the healing for them is also saying "it isn't that expensive, it shouldn't bother you."
This reminds me of two friends of mine in college. I used to take them water skiing behind my boat. One of them always offered to chip in for gas. The other never did. When pressed on it, he said to me, "gas isn't THAT expensive; what's the big deal?"
I replied, "if it's not that expensive, then why are you so very reluctant to chip in?"
His reasoning was that it was my boat, so I should have to foot the bill for all the gas too.
Guess which friend continued to get invitations to join us water skiing, and which one was left at home...
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"You STILL haven't bought pants! We are going to stop inviting you! even if you do bring the cookies"What if he's a monk? Many of them are supposed to be naked.
*nod* That's how they turn invisible.
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"You STILL haven't bought pants! We are going to stop inviting you! even if you do bring the cookies"What if he's a monk? Many of them are supposed to be naked.
(And, please, no comments about "flurry of blows".)
My Nagaji monk with a Vow of Cleanliness had a tendency to drop his robes and bathe in the middle of a scenario, usually after a trip to the sewers, often in the middle of a city alleyway. He'd then pull a fresh set of robes out and throw the old ones away.
By popular request, he can now cast Prestidigitation on himself (by way of the Cloak of the Hedge Wizard) to avoid such incidents in the future.
I've thankfully yet to have this happen repeatedly.Agreed. But by the 3rd or 5th or umpteenth time they show up unprepared for anything, I tend to be much less willing to help them out.... If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time. If a player shows up and starts bullying people into healing his character (something I've never seen, by the way, and hope I never do), I don't know. I might say something, or nudge the GM into helping with the situation.thank you for your thoughtful answers.
I esp. liked your observation "If a player shows up with an unprepared character, I'll help as much as I can and hope they learn to be better prepared next time." I also hope they learn.
There are a few at my local that absolutely refuse to buy any sort of consumable. They are extremely reluctant to buy anything that doesn't increase DPR.
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I don't know guys, what are even arguing about anymore? That every character should be required to buy a wand of IH/CLW even if they can't use it? Sure, a player that doesn't buy a wand ends up costing the rest of the party or a "designated" healer more money on charges but I've never seen someone refused healing.
My wizard had First Aid Gloves on him, went dead and while dead had through the aid of the whole party his gloves removed, him saved but still unconscious, while he was unconscious another member died and the other 5 charges were used to save them. When he woke up and found his 4500 gold gloves just a regular pair of gloves he wasn't mad, he was glad everyone was alive.
It's a team game but that doesn't mean everyone is good at playing as a team, some people that come to these events are the only time they hang out with people, they don't realize that they are being "rude".
People talk about not gaming with people who weren't prepared but you could also make a note to mention good items to have to those people.
In the end, this thread is about go items to buy with prestige, I agree wands, potions and scrolls are the best things to buy with prestige but they aren't required items and shouldn't be made requirements.
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I don't know guys, what are even arguing about anymore? That every character should be required to buy a wand of IH/CLW even if they can't use it? Sure, a player that doesn't buy a wand ends up costing the rest of the party or a "designated" healer more money on charges but I've never seen someone refused healing.
My wizard had First Aid Gloves on him, went dead and while dead had through the aid of the whole party his gloves removed, him saved but still unconscious, while he was unconscious another member died and the other 5 charges were used to save them. When he woke up and found his 4500 gold gloves just a regular pair of gloves he wasn't mad, he was glad everyone was alive.
It's a team game but that doesn't mean everyone is good at playing as a team, some people that come to these events are the only time they hang out with people, they don't realize that they are being "rude".
People talk about not gaming with people who weren't prepared but you could also make a note to mention good items to have to those people.
In the end, this thread is about go items to buy with prestige, I agree wands, potions and scrolls are the best things to buy with prestige but they aren't required items and shouldn't be made requirements.
I'm quoting this because Codanous and I play together regularly and seem to be of opposite opinions in this discussion.
In reality, he is one of my favorite players to play with. Our play styles mesh well, and we see eye to eye on sharing resources.
The backlash is from myself and others being told that we MUST spend our resources on others. And not on others who are unprepared through inexperience, but those who simply feel that we owe it to them due to their mere presence.
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Sure, why not?So what? It's 15 gp or 0.04 PP per charge.Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..What if that party tank is me, and I *do* spend my own charges on that healing, and then other party members want me to spend some on them as well?So to be clear:
If I'm the tank, and you're playing say a wizard or magus, and I turn to you and say "Hey, I saw you had a healing wand; could you patch me up? I'm down about a hundred."You'd be cool with that? Burn those charges without a second thought?
Great, no worries then. :)
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Stuff I saidI'm quoting this because Codanous and I play together regularly and seem to be of opposite opinions in this discussion.
In reality, he is one of my favorite players to play with. Our play styles mesh well, and we see eye to eye on sharing resources.
The backlash is from myself and others being told that we MUST spend our resources on others. And not on others who are unprepared through inexperience, but those who simply feel that we owe it to them due to their mere presence.
I think I understand better now, at no point would I demand someone heal me, consumables or otherwise or expect them to be a healer based on what class they are playing. Nor should a character have to use their resources on someone who wasn't prepared but was knowingly unprepared for one reason or another.
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Here's my take on the whole thing:
People have helped me out when I need it, and in turn I've helped people out (usually with cure / IH wands). I'll help you out, and if you are new, I'll advise that it's a good idea to buy healing consumables for yourself to avoid being a long term drain on others' resources.
If a player continually shows up without a wand or some other way to take care of lost hit points, they stop getting access to my healing resources. I'd never tell someone that they have to do anything, but I'm also not obligated to subsidize their selfishness.
I'm not calling any names here, but as someone who's played multiple characters with access to healing spells, I've never played a dedicated healer. I'm not sure if I'll ever want to. Please don't ask me to sacrifice spell slots to heal you, unless it's an emergency. I use those slots for buffing, debuffing, utility, damage, and whatever else. I find those infinitely more interesting than just playing your pocket support while you get to kick @$$.
Also, without aggro mechanics, tanking has a diminished role in PF. Tanking isn't so important that you are entitled to anyone's spell slots for healing.
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I will never ask anyone to use thier wand charges or resources on any of my characters.Awesome! In fairness, I won't ask you to use yours on me. In actual play, I will offer to use my resources on you; these might be charges from a healing wand, they might be something else entirely—like my paladin/gunslinger who hands out her spare firearms to people who don't have ranged weapons "just in case" (a –4 non-proficiency penalty to hit on against touch AC is usually negligible).
But If you have the ability to heal without one and I take a beating for the good of the group I do expect you to use your class abilities to heal me.See, now you are telling me how I need to play my character. This is where we run into trouble.
Because I used my abilities to keep you from getting hurt.Maybe you didn't. Maybe I got hurt anyway. Maybe I was going to remain unhurt even if you weren't there. Maybe I was using my abilities to help you finish the fight sooner so you wouldn't take more damage.
All I'm asking is:
Please don't try to tell me how to play MY characters.
In exchange, I won't tell you how to play yours.
So this is insulting. You sparse my word senough to take my words out of context.
But I think you are horribly wrong with your direction. I am not asking you how to play your character I am expecting you to agree to a social contract that we are a team and play towards a team. After all explore COOPERATE and report. now your contingencies are also rude. Because if I am taking un-needed risk for your character please let me know. I would expect you to cooperate with me enough to let me know I do not need to help you.
Now if you expect to break that social contract let me know and I will make sure take care of myself.
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Finlanderboy, I think if you played at a table with me, we'd probably both agree that the other was an excellent team player. I definitely stress the COOPERATE portion of the PFS tenet.
Many of my characters are support characters. I like to help other people shine. I think that is an important part of the group rpg experience.
All I am asking is that I be allowed to dictate my characters actions. If you say to me "you need to use your paladin's lay on hands ability to heal me out of combat," then that is you telling me how to play my character. That is not what I use my paladin's LOH for. That resource is an emergency in-combat healing for myself, since I can do it as a swift action. If I'm using it on you out of combat, that is putting me at risk in future encounters.
On the other hand, if you give me your wand of CLW and ask me to cast it on you, I will do so whenever you ask.
"But charges aren't that expensive..."
That's right they aren't.
Some of us are saying, "wands of CLW are so inexpensive that I'm willing to pay for my own."
Others are saying, "wands of CLW are so inexpensive that I think YOU should pay for mine."
Somehow, the first group is getting labeled as selfish, uncooperative, and not team players.
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Party tank absorbs 100 damage during combat. If you spend 10 charges (and 10 minutes) off a wand of infernal healing to heal the tank, what's the difference if you're using that 150 gp (or 0.4 PP) on the tank or yourself? That 100 hp of damage is going to be absorbed by someone..Bolding mine.
That's not necessarily true, though. Rukk, as you've mentioned, does not have a high AC. So he's going to be prone to taking more damage than the average high AC frontline character, and he has the hit points to allow for that. Were the attacks that are directed at Rukk instead directed at a high AC character, like my sometimes 40AC Monk, or even a Sorcerer with Displacement, maybe only half of those hit points are absorbed, and thus only half of the healing required.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your Barbarian's build. From all the posts I've seen about him, I think he's an awesome character who is greatly appreciated by his teammates, and I'd love to end up at a table with him someday. But don't you think the choice to build a character that will get hit a lot and relies on having lots of hit points so you don't have to have a big AC (or spend the money to get one) should also include some way to restore some of those hit points? Maybe the group chips in. It's the right thing to do. But one would hope Rukk is happy to chip in as well (as I know he is from the Magic Stick comment earlier).
And now I see that I have confused who is Rukk and who is Garble. Too many 5 stars floating around! My apologies Kyle and Walter for the mix-up!
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stuff
I hate wands of healing.
They are to cheap and wrekc many aspects of the game. pre-encounter, traps, and many more they triviliaze. I refuse to buy them, and that is my choice. I almost always have my own healing and rely on that. Now I DO NOT want people to spend their consumable resources on me. People get it stuck in their heads everyone needs a healing wand and if you do not have one you do not get ANY heals. I think that is BS.
I am saying that guy with 5 positive channels left when the game ends that did not heal me is selfish. Espcially after I burned my healing for myself on other people including them.
I see a lot of that and people using quotes from the first group you mentioned to justify that.
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stuffI am saying that guy with 5 positive channels left when the game ends that did not heal me is selfish. Espcially after I burned my healing for myself on other people including them.
Not necessarily. My healbot cleric, when he was level 7 and 8, used to keep VERY tight control of his channels. He was especially loathe to go below 3.
Not because I was being selfish. He had Channeled Revival and was keeping his channels as insurance.
My point is that a player may be playing his character well and in a cooperative fashion even if they're not doing what you think they should. Sometimes reasonable people can disagree and sometimes the player knows more than you do.
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stuffI am saying that guy with 5 positive channels left when the game ends that did not heal me is selfish. Espcially after I burned my healing for myself on other people including them.
Not necessarily. My healbot cleric, when he was level 7 and 8, used to keep VERY tight control of his channels. He was especially loathe to go below 3.
Not because I was being selfish. He had Channeled Revival and was keeping his channels as insurance.
My point is that a player may be playing his character well and in a cooperative fashion even if they're not doing what you think they should. Sometimes reasonable people can disagree and sometimes the player knows more than you do.
Honestly if you want to sparse my comment to take it out of context it is insulting. Then use a rare situation to counter to half of my arguement is just silly
Now to answer your question. That is great if you have a reason to not heal me for the greater good. I accpet that. Heck I accept people being selfish and not helping teammates. I am not telling you how to play your character. I have every right to call you a selfish player though. It is still BS that you want people to risk for you and you have no intention of assisting them for that risk. It makes you a selfish player.
pauljathome, I do not mean you in my text I meant players that act that way.
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Finlanderboy, you called my post above insulting and you have just called this one here insulting.
1. I did not take your comments out of context. I included every sentence of the first paragraph. That was what I was replying to. I omitted your anecdote about another player you played with because I was not replying to that part of your post.
2. Paul included an anecdote of his own here. I don't find his story any more or less important than your own, but you call him silly for including it.
Please take a moment to think about this.
I'm not trying to insult you. I don't think others are trying to insult you. If I have insulted you, I am sorry.
Now back to what I hope will continue as a friendly debate.
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stuff
You are missing my point. Myabe I am explaining it poorly. I am not telling you you have to heal, use detect evil, or whatever.
Ok, I am not telling you have to play your anything or what your chartacter has. The first con I went to I came in between a game and watched a game with 4 pregens and one non-pregen. The non-pregen was the only one with a wand. The DM convinced the player not to heal the other players because they should have their own wands. The nonpregen was cornered and severly wounded. Now I watched as valerous stepped up and tried to trip the monester to provoke so that non-pregen could walk away with out dropping.
That non-pregen from the advice of the DM did not heal valeros for his noble attempt. He was contemptlating spontaneously healing him, but decided against it.
The boss fight came and they ran away while valeros was left behind.
To this day I would call that non-pregen a selfish player. I think it was BS to accept that kind of help and not help somone for that sacrifice. Now in an advenute if everyone wanded themselves for their HPs. The front liners are going to use a ton more charges. I also think that is unfair and the group should assist the group healing. I am not telling anyone ever they have to heal people, or do whatever. Just realize when others put their characters on the line for the group, holding out for whatever reason is selfish.
If I played with yoru paladin and burned all my heals keeping him alive. Would you be stingy and refuse to heal me when I get hurt later? I have seen 3 others in that exact situation refuse me.
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If I played with yoru paladin and burned all my heals keeping him alive. Would you be stingy and refuse to heal me when I get hurt later? I have seen 3 others in that exact situation refuse me.
No. I wouldn't. But if your healing on me earlier had been out of combat, I would have insisted that you use my wand. If it had been in combat, it would have been quite the emergency. I usually don't ask for healing in combat unless things are in a real mess and that is the most productive thing their character can do.
This past week, my wife's cleric was blinded in the boss fight. She isn't built as a healer and I normally don't ask her for healing (earlier in the scenario, my swashbuckler/sorcerer was providing much of the group's healing with my wand of IH). But now that she was blinded, she couldn't perform the role she chose for her character (debuffer). So she started spamming cure light wounds. The trick was, we had to go to her because she couldn't see us. She took us from a TPK to a HPK (half party kill). In any other situation, healing is about the least useful thing she can do.
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... The first con I went to I came in between a game and watched a game with 4 pregens and one non-pregen. The non-pregen was the only one with a wand. The DM convinced the player not to heal the other players because they should have their own wands. The nonpregen was cornered and severly wounded. Now I watched as valerous stepped up and tried to trip the monester to provoke so that non-pregen could walk away with out dropping.
That non-pregen from the advice of the DM did not heal valeros for his noble attempt. He was contemptlating spontaneously healing him, but decided against it.
The boss fight came and they ran away while valeros was left behind.
To this day I would call that non-pregen a selfish player. I think it was BS to accept that kind of help and not help somone for that sacrifice. ...
Agreed. Though I would say the GM was at least 60% at fault. Most of the pregens do not have any significant healing or condition removals and the players of pregens can't do anything about that. Many players will not go against the GM telling them to do or not do something.
Comparative examples:
At our local there is a guy playing barbarian/fighter mix I am pretty sure he has only 4 magic items. Breastplate +1, cloak of resistance +1, belt of strength +2(or 4), and an adamantine flachion +3. He has dumped all the mental stats to raise con and str. I don't think he even raised his dex. He has not even purchased a non-magical bow for ranged combat. I think he has 1 dagger to throw. He has many K's of gold being saved for the next upgrade to his blade.
He the other PC's to cast barkskin or magic vestments on him so he doesn't get killed, pro from evil so he doesn't get dominated to kill us, fly potion so he can get to the bad guy, use a remove curse on him so he can continue to fight, etc... "We're a team right? You do those things for me and I'll kill things for you. It's only fair."
My character who is in the same tier is also a front line melee character. But I always keep on me a scroll of remove curse, neutralize poison, cure disease, potion of remove blindness, oil of daylight, mostly full wand of cure light wounds, po cure serious wounds, etc... Best I can figure, I've spent about 5k keeping him functional. Twice I did not have the item when I needed it because I had used it on him. I almost had to be declared dead at the end of scenario since I couldn't get rid of a curse. He did not offer to pay for the remove curse, neither with gold nor with prestige. One of the other PC's did though. I burned through half of a full wand on him in one scenario. It is such a minor enough expense that I (who has the same party role) should spend the money on him. But it is expensive enough that he won't spend it on himself. "But I spend my money on the sword to help you guys." Yeah, not really so much.
On those occasions where he gets to full attack and isn't suffering from some debilitating effect; yes, he kills things very fast. But not enough to justify the expense of adventuring with him. I can't think of a single scenario with him where I would not have rather had an empty spot at the table (still playing same tier and size adjustment).
Now when he asks for X several of us say, "Sorry I haven't replaced it from last time you used it. Maybe you should buy one for yourself." He obviously doesn't believe us and is very irritated about it. But he still won't buy anything. He is just saving for the next sword upgrade.
He is definitely the worst at our local. But there are at least 2 others that have are leaning in that direction. Since they see many people still provide everything he needs, lately they have been more like that rather than less.
That selfish privilaged behavior is what many of us have a hard time with.
People that are inexperienced, never considered, bought a potion of neutralise poison when the ended up needing the cure disease, used their resources helping the team, saved someone else, did something risky to accomplish the mission, etc... I have no problem with and am perfectly happy helping them out however I can. I helped Mr Selfish for quite a while until it became clear the only thing he learned was to count on others for everything.
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My point was coming from the guy who said "you will be lucky get my healings spells if you don't have your own CLW wand" If you get cure wounds on your spell list and its prepared or you can drop for it but you refuse to use your daily spell allotment to help the party win then you should expect to fail every mission
No. A thousand times no.
Most healing spells are a waste of resources that could otherwise go into far more productive things, either preventing damage or proactive healing via making something dead. They are inefficient. Healing simply has not scaled with the damage things can do either in between editions or with the power creep of splat books.
Healing spells do. not. keep. up . with. damage. you HAVE to use wands in between combats and save the heals for in combat emergencies.