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The best use of prestige is to get more healths. I use my copy of Ultimate Campaigns to retrain all prestige into HP. This make me not die.
If you have more HP maybe you not die too.
What is the cost of retraining for HPs?
EDIT:
Looked it up. So it's 3 PP for 1 HP? That doesn't seem like such a good deal.
When you have 50 extra PP it might be
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When you have 50 extra PP it might beThe best use of prestige is to get more healths. I use my copy of Ultimate Campaigns to retrain all prestige into HP. This make me not die.
If you have more HP maybe you not die too.
What is the cost of retraining for HPs?
EDIT:
Looked it up. So it's 3 PP for 1 HP? That doesn't seem like such a good deal.
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The bring your own or I won't group are stating that your contribution is not as valuable as theirs. This in mind set, in and of itself, is detrimental to co-operation.
Quite the opposite. This is the attitude of those NOT bringing their own healing. They are saying that their role is so valuable that they are ONLY going to do that role, whereas everyone else is going to do their own role AND Provide their own healing.
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So a Healer who demands you do your role and also theirs is being co-operative?
They're acceding to the reality that they probably cannot heal you for every hit point of damage with their class abilities alone.
If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you. Every healer I ever played with barring pregens refuses to use thier healing in place of wands.
As for nosig. I completely agree. Demanding anyone play anything they do not want is a bully. I always try to defend a player playing what they want how they want.
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And what are you defining as a healer?
If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you.
I do not define other poeple's character s roles. Those that defien that role for themselves
Nosig:
A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.
Honestly him takign hits was the only real help he provided the team.
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A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.
This hurts me. In my soul.
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A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.This hurts me. In my soul.
Nice try. We know you don't have one.
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A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.
Honestly him takign hits was the only real help he provided the team.
Just as the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set thinks of the other side as being like the guy in this post, the other side thinks the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set is like what's described here.
Both sides of the debate should probably not assume that everybody on the other side is one of the two sociopatic extremes.... But, each of us should also look at the sociopathic extreme of the side we don't agree with in order to see that the other side may have a point. (And, if you actually agree with one of the sociopathic extremes, then, well, hum.)
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Just as the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set thinks of the other side as being like the guy in this post, the other side thinks the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set is like what's described here.
Both sides of the debate should probably not assume that everybody on the other side is one of the two sociopatic extremes.... But, each of us should also look at the sociopathic extreme of the side we don't agree with in order to see that the other side may have a point. (And, if you actually agree with one of the sociopathic extremes, then, well, hum.)
The most common arguments I've seen against buying a CLW wand are:
"My character can't use it."
"My character will be better at his specified role if I don't waste money on healing."
"I don't want to buy it because you're telling me I have to."
"I shouldn't have to pay for healing because I'm providing a service to the party which keeps them from needing healing."
My argument for providing your own wand of CLW is:
After every combat, I want to be sure I can top off my hit points. The best way to ensure that happens is to bring enough healing to make that happen.
Plus, if someone else forgot to bring a wand (or runs out of charges, etc.) I can help them top off so we don't lose someone unnecessarily (which can also spiral out of control into a TPK).
Now if someone sits down and says they don't have a wand because they don't think they should have to provide their own healing, they're now putting the onus on the rest of us. It's like walking up to a group of people, flopping forward and yelling "trust fall!" and then getting upset if no one feels like catching them.
The last thing I want when I sit down at a table is to be forced to take a stand on someone else's principles. It's a game. If your philosophy is different than mine, that's okay. If your philosophy demands that I spend resources on you when you could have provided your own, prepare for your philosophy to be disappointed.
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I've said it before on these boards: if you don't try to tell me how to play my character, then I won't tell you how to play your character and we will probably get along great.
Personally, I think it is an excellent idea to have a wand of CLW. All of my characters have a healing wand of some sort for themselves. All of them are capable of using their respective wands. If you don't want to provide healing for yourself, it's no skin off my nose. I hope it works out for you.
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What do we say to the guy who hits 3rd level and still expects to sponge off the girls mom? after all - she's running a HEALER and it's her JOB.I am loathe to get back into this discussion, but here I am. The problem I have with this anecdote is that her mother isn't necessarily giving her good advice. I touched on this in the other thread and I'll repeat it here. Everyone bringing CLW wand doesn't make the party stronger than when a few people spend those Prestige on something else.
Others have pointed this out and I'll echo that sentiment. Assuming someone is not a team player because they don't have a CLW is simply exhibiting prejudice. I believe a party is better off if the heavy duty front-liners who cannot use a wand per their class/build purchase something other than CLW wands. I believe a party is better and more fun to play with when they leverage things their class/builds are able to do.
When my support characters team with fighters who have CLW at low levels, I find myself wishing they'd spent those resources on something that helped them fight better. The fact that they brought a wand means I might save 30gp if we use a lot of charges. If we don't have any way to beat a devil's DR, we all might lose a lot more than 30 gp.
No, I don't believe in preparing for the worst case scenario where nobody brought a healing wand because in my experience that hasn't happened. If it did, it's probably because no one can use it. In which case, I wouldn't play the scenario.
So I'll ask those who do bring CLWs not to auto-label people who don't bring such wands. Don't form an attitude about someone until you play with them. You might find out that the guy without the CLW was a much better teammate than the guy with the wand.
The "loathe" and the "touched upon" made me lol.
Ok to my actual point, you seem to be arguing for the corner cases and the exceptions to the rule. Fine, not every experienced player who doesn't pick up a wand of CLW will be a drain on resources and not a team player. Thats 100% true, not EVERY one will, but the thing is MOST will be.
You keep arguing that people are tarring everyone with the same brush essentially and I agree with you that in general thats bad (as is most tarring of people), so my advice to all would be, give the benefit of doubt and advice together:
-Continue to advise everyone to buy their own CLW wand because it is a good step to teamwork and is a good way not to be a sponge AND/OR not to be seen as a sponge.
-BUT-
-Dont assume everyone without a CLW is a sponge or not a teamplayer (although if they turn out to be then don't hesitate to point out to them that in your STRONG opinion they could benefit from being more of a team player)
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I'm to the point where I'd advise people "get a CLW wand, because if the forums are any indication, chances are before long you're going to run into somebody who thinks you're the worst person ever if you don't have your own. It's worth the 2 PP not to have to put up with that."
Regardless of any other reasoning.
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Its interesting, I'd say I fall into both camps depending on the level of play. Levels 1 to 7, I have no problem burning my personal resources to aid the group and to cover for the guy who spent 98% of his gold buying a sweet sword leaving none for potions, wands, alchemical items, what have you's. I would hope they are still simply learning the game and realize why it might have been better to save up for one more scenario but either way, I'll in the end donate my items/charges because its a team game and if I refuse to share, in my mind, I am the one not being cooperative.
I don't want to be the guy that was smart enough to bring trail rations to the camping trip so when the bear ate our food we still had something to eat and then decide to hoard them, bragging about how much smarter and well-prepared I was.
However that all changes from level 8 and up. At that point it becomes live or die, if someone wasn't smart enough at that level to be dedicating a budget on consumables, I'd think are pretty required for high level pfs play, I am reluctant to share. Nothing ticks me off more than having to give away my potion of fly to the 10th level fighter because they don't own their own, in the end though, I'll give that potion of away because I want to succeed and if not giving that potion away meant we failed, I'd blame the fighter and myself. Him for being unprepared and me for being too stubborn.
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I don't mind if people sponge off me, as long as they mention it beforehand so it's possible to prepare accordingly. I've realised that while the creed of always getting a happy stick pronto is a very pragmatic creed to live by, not everyone agrees. And I can think of a couple of reasons why, none of them having to do with jerk behaviour.
Still, I'm going to strongly advise folks to at least get a way to stabilize people. I've been in a situation where the party arcanist had to stand there and twiddle their little arcane thumbs while the rest of the party rolled Con checks. The pain...
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When my support characters team with fighters who have CLW at low levels, I find myself wishing they'd spent those resources on something that helped them fight better. The fact that they brought a wand means I might save 30gp if we use a lot of charges. If we don't have any way to beat a devil's DR, we all might lose a lot more than 30 gp.
I still don't quite understand this point of view. I'll grant that there are situations where a CLW wand is not the best thing to purchase. A 1st level wizard might decide to spend their first 2 prestige on a wand of Mage armor or Magic Missile. An archer build might spend their first 2 prestige on a composite longbow. In those and similar cases, you are correct that the character and party might be better off.
But what you advocate here, and what you advocated in the other thread, is that you are better off with a situational item that will not apply in most scenarios than you are with an item that could apply in virtually every scenario. You might run into a devil in a scenario, but you'll almost definitely take damage in a scenario. I'll guess that most character that purchase a wand of CLW do so before they hit level 2. Do you expect to need an Oil of Bless Weapon before level 2? A potion of Fly (a more direct cost comparison to the wand)? I can think of 1 or 2 scenarios in tier 1-2 where an Oil of Bless Weapon might save the party, but both of those scenarios provide a way to get an aligned weapon within the scenario. So, following your philosophy, you're willing to go through several scenarios at low levels carrying an item that won't contribute at all instead of carrying an item that will almost certainly contribute, even if it's not in as crucial of a way. By the time a potion of Fly or an Oil if Daylight or similar item becomes relevant, you'll have had to survive somewhere between 6 and 12 scenarios. Maybe, just possibly, some form of healing might help you do that?
Also, an Oil of Bless Weapon is an item that is not a direct cost equivalent to the wand. An Oil of Bless Weapon is 50gp. A wand is 2 prestige. It's not a choice between the two in most cases, because you aren't going to spend prestige to get the Oil of Bless Weapon. You could argue an Oil of Bless Weapon vs. a Potion of CLW, and you could probably make a pretty good argument. Both are situational items.
The oil is so that in the event that you run into a devil or demon with DR/Evil, and you have the time to stop and apply the oil, you have a way to get through the DR. I mentioned this in the other thread, though. I have rarely seen a frontline fighter stop in the middle of combat to apply an Oil of Bless Weapon. Usually they just elect to power through the DR by dealing large amounts of damage in the first place. Stopping for a round might help them do an extra 5-10 points of damage each attack at the expense of a full attack that could deal 20 or 30 or 40 or significantly more damage per attack. An Oil of Bless Weapon is, to me, more useful for a character that is not typically a frontline fighter, but who might find themselves forced into Melee. A Bard or a Rogue who might not be able to get through the creature's DR without the oil. A 1st level fighter can typically deal enough damage per attack so that something gets through even DR/10.
The CLW potion isn't really practical for in or out of combat healing. It's a contingency item so that as a fighter, who cannot use a wand, you have a way to heal yourself or others in the event that the designated healer is not able to do so. This, to me, is more likely to prevent a TPK or save a character's life. What happens when the healer goes unconscious in the middle of combat? Or a character, any character, is a round or two away from death by bleeding out? I've certainly been in situations where my character was the only one close enough to help. Is the party better off if I continue my attacks on the creature instead of trying to save a dying party member, possibly the cleric? It depends on the situation, but if I don't have a way to save the dying party member, then I don't really have a choice. You might save 50gp by not carrying a potion of CLW, but you might save a Raise Dead and two Restorations or a TPK by carrying one. If you're willing to purchase an Oil of Bless Weapon on the chance that you run into a Devil or Demon which you can't kill from your regular damage output, I don't understand why you're unwilling to carry a potion of CLW on the chance that you run into a situation where any healing might save a party member.
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Still, I'm going to strongly advise folks to at least get a way to stabilize people. I've been in a situation where the party arcanist had to stand there and twiddle their little arcane thumbs while the rest of the party rolled Con checks. The pain...
This. Although I'd hope the Arcanist would have been rolling Heal checks or searching his companions bodies for a healing potion, not twiddling his thumbs. Even with a penalty to Wis skills, it's still only a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize someone, compared to what might be an almost impossible DC 20+ on the stabilize check for some characters.
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The best use of prestige is to get more healths. I use my copy of Ultimate Campaigns to retrain all prestige into HP. This make me not die.
If you have more HP maybe you not die too.
What is the cost of retraining for HPs?
EDIT:
Looked it up. So it's 3 PP for 1 HP? That doesn't seem like such a good deal.
I do good with my missions. I get 2 prestige most times. So sometimes I can get 2 HPs each time I get a level.
That's like getting Toughness two more times. Three Toughnesses on a barbarian is very good.
I gladly pay a few measly gold and prestige to make me not die every game.
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Nothing ticks me off more than having to give away my potion of fly to the 10th level fighter because they don't own their own, in the end though, I'll give that potion of away because I want to succeed
If it means the difference between life and death I'll likely give away the potion. But if I think we'll succeed anyway and all it means is that the fighter gets to have fun (ie, the player is b#**@ing because his character can't do anything) then I won't give away the potion. And if failing the mission by running away is an option I may or may not (spending 2 prestige to maybe salvage 1 or 2 prestige is questionable:-))
I'll also possibly hoard it if it looks like I might need it to save my life.
Bring your own stuff optimizes your chances of living
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Translation: the tank is expected to go to the front and take the majority of the damage so the rest of the party doesn't get hit as much, but is being selfish if he doesn't also provide forall of thehealing himself.
Honesty'd that for you.
The tank is expected to go be tanky, and cover his own healing.
The archer is expected to be good at archery, and cover his own healing.
The evoker is expected to spend spell slots blasting, and cover his own healing.
The debuffer is expected to spend resources debuffing, and cover his own healing.
And so forth.
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It's one thing to consume renewable resources, namely spells and class abilities, on healing. It's another to have to expend inordinate amounts of consumables, as they cost money and prestige points. It helps if the cost of the non-renewable healing resources is distributed among the party rather than piled on one or two people.
EDIT: When you get to higher level play, and you only have someone who is decent at healing (IE not a life oracle or positive energy cleric), and most importantly did not build their character to handle the healing role well, then you're going to be blowing through wands like tissues. I would dare say about a wand and a half per scenario.
EDIT 2: For the subject of this topic, my Ranger bought a farm vanity so he could use handle animal for day job roles. I flavored it as a jackass farm, because he was more comfortable living with his kin.
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Man, you'd think this was a political discussion OH WAIT
EDIT: When you get to higher level play, and you only have someone who is decent at healing (IE not a life oracle or positive energy cleric), and most importantly did not build their character to handle the healing role well, then you're going to be blowing through wands like tissues. I would dare say about a wand and a half per scenario.
Or you don't use any wands because the enemies die before they can inflict any damage.
