Where to spend Prestige Points


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N N 959 wrote:
Rukk wrote:

The best use of prestige is to get more healths. I use my copy of Ultimate Campaigns to retrain all prestige into HP. This make me not die.

If you have more HP maybe you not die too.

What is the cost of retraining for HPs?

EDIT:
Looked it up. So it's 3 PP for 1 HP? That doesn't seem like such a good deal.

When you have 50 extra PP it might be

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Finlanderboy wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Rukk wrote:

The best use of prestige is to get more healths. I use my copy of Ultimate Campaigns to retrain all prestige into HP. This make me not die.

If you have more HP maybe you not die too.

What is the cost of retraining for HPs?

EDIT:
Looked it up. So it's 3 PP for 1 HP? That doesn't seem like such a good deal.

When you have 50 extra PP it might be

Explosive Runes!:
Fangwood Keep, FTW
Shadow Lodge 1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

There is a reason I keep saying Healer, not Cleric.

This whole issue comes down to an argument of the Value of a Role.

The bring your own or I won't group are stating that your contribution is not as valuable as theirs. This in mind set, in and of itself, is detrimental to co-operation.

And, you seem to have missed that I am for the sharing of the burden. I am just against the concept of it being an EDICT and not a matter of edicate.

Do;
Suggest to a new player that it is a good idea to buy a Wand of CLW, to share the burden/help the party.

Don't:
Inform a new player that they Must buy a Wand of CLW, or No Heals For You.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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tempest Knight wrote:
The bring your own or I won't group are stating that your contribution is not as valuable as theirs. This in mind set, in and of itself, is detrimental to co-operation.

Quite the opposite. This is the attitude of those NOT bringing their own healing. They are saying that their role is so valuable that they are ONLY going to do that role, whereas everyone else is going to do their own role AND Provide their own healing.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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I rather thought that I was saying it's not a rule, it's a choice. One that can be delayed until arriving at the table.

Shadow Lodge 1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

So a Healer who demands you do your role and also theirs is being co-operative?

I have no problem helping the Healer, or helping the Party with healing if we have no Healer, but this still states that the healer is more valuable then the Tank who takes the hit instead of the Healer or Mage, or the Trapsmith who disables the trap that would kill the party.

It is stating clearly that you are not of value to the team unless you ALSO provide healing.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Tempest_Knight wrote:

So a Healer who demands you do your role and also theirs is being co-operative?

They're acceding to the reality that they probably cannot heal you for every hit point of damage with their class abilities alone.

Shadow Lodge 1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

My problem is not the edicate of helping the healer and buying your own Wand of CLW.

My problem is the EDICT of Buy a Wand of CLW or no healing.

I suggest a Wand of CLW to new players, but I do it as a matter of edicate, reminding them that they might not have a Healer every game, and that Healers have limited resources too.

I DON'T inform new players that they MUST buy a Wand of CLW or not get healing.

The Exchange 5/5

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I was judging beginners tables at ComicCON in my home town. I was expecting to have as much as 100% new players and prepared for that... but prepped several scenarios just in case we got someone who had played before.

and I had a one player who had played before! great! Now I didn't have to worry about healing at a table of all Iconic PCs, right?...

No such luck. The "old hand" was running a character with 2 XP, and 4 Fame... a Front Line, Fighter with an 18 STR, and a Great Sword...

He had spent 2PP on something... I remember now, it was masterwork halfplate armor.

I mentioned that he might want to get something in the way of healing... just in case. After all, he was likely to be the only PC at the table with anything besides the 150 gp. starting money. "Nah, one of them will just have to run a Cleric to keep me healed up." So he spent his gold on a Long Composite Bow, (STR 18 bow, and he had a DEX of 10), and saved his other two PP...

As each new player arrived and I passed out my folder with all the Iconic's printed up (and new PFS numbers), he would say... "We need one of you to play a Cleric to keep me in the game"... and I would say, "Play what you want... I notice you are reading the gunslinger write-up..." He did get one of the players to run Kyra, then complained when she channeled to damage the ghouls... she was "wasting" her heals...

This is the mindset I see when someone says... "I'm the front line fighter, you guys have to keep me healed up. Your the Healer - it's your job to keep me up!" It might not be the actual one that people on the other side of this issue are saying... but it feels that way.

"One of you will have to run a Cleric to keep me healed up... 'cause I need my money for armor and weapons." & "You need to spend your resources to keep me in the game. "

If that is not what you are saying... then we don't have a disagreement. If it is, then ... I guess we do.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Tempest_Knight wrote:

So a Healer who demands you do your role and also theirs is being co-operative?

They're acceding to the reality that they probably cannot heal you for every hit point of damage with their class abilities alone.

If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you. Every healer I ever played with barring pregens refuses to use thier healing in place of wands.

As for nosig. I completely agree. Demanding anyone play anything they do not want is a bully. I always try to defend a player playing what they want how they want.

The Exchange 5/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Tempest_Knight wrote:

So a Healer who demands you do your role and also theirs is being co-operative?

They're acceding to the reality that they probably cannot heal you for every hit point of damage with their class abilities alone.

If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you. Every healer I ever played with barring pregens refuses to use thier healing in place of wands.

Last game I played we had

3rd level Cavalier
4th level Alchemist/Wizard
5th level Wizard
4th level Iconic Gunlinger

the Healer was the Alchemist - which worked fine until we hit a trap that took his voice (no triggering healing wands). (The Wizard and the Cavalier both had CLW Wands they gave to the Alchemist to use)

The rest of the healing was done by the Wizard with a wand of Infernal Healing (two actually... as both the Alchemist and the Cavalier had wands of Infernal Healing - they burned over 30 charges on those two wands, many on the Iconic - but most on the Alchemist and Cavalier (and his mount)).

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Finlanderboy wrote:


If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you.

And what are you defining as a healer?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:


If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you.
And what are you defining as a healer?

I do not define other poeple's character s roles. Those that defien that role for themselves

Nosig:

A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.

Honestly him takign hits was the only real help he provided the team.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.

This hurts me. In my soul.

The Exchange 5/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:


If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you.
And what are you defining as a healer?
I do not define other poeple's character s roles. Those that defien that role for themselves

someone who steps up to the table and says "Hi, I'm the healer"?

Or someone who says "I can heal things..."

My "combat medic" might use a swapped spell in combat to deliver a large amount of healing (swapping his biggest spell - say his Restoration or Freedom of Movement to a 4d8+lvl heal spell to give a fast repair... but I would much rather use a shield other before the Tank takes the damage... that way I can get double duty off my channels.

Out of combat, I'd rather use wand charges, just in case we need that FoM (or whatever) later... and wand charges are cheeper than Lesser Restoration scrolls. I now even carry a wand - even though I have SR and they almost never work on me. I carry a wand to help spread the burden/cost of the healing out... not to carry it all myself.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

TOZ wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.
This hurts me. In my soul.

Nice try. We know you don't have one.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

It does make a lot of sense to save the cure spells and channels for a big emergency. You never know when one's going to crop up.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nice try. We know you don't have one.

You're right.

I have many.

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Finlanderboy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:


If I saw a healer do this I would completely agree with you.
And what are you defining as a healer?

I do not define other poeple's character s roles. Those that defien that role for themselves

Nosig:

A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.

Honestly him takign hits was the only real help he provided the team.

One of my good friends used to play a Life Oracle... he doesn't play her any more. Three times killed put a cramp into his desire to even play PFS in a public setting. We'd got him going to the game days again sometimes... and sometimes he even stays to play... If he knows most of the people at the table...

HIs last death on his Oracle was when he got pushed into playing up (the party asked him to play a healer, as they knew he had one and they were all melee types - and they knew they needed one). His Init is low (deaf) and normally he goes last in the turn. In the final fight, the party rushed into combat with the BBE, then the BBE hit them for a bunch of damage - so he moved into the room to be able to get everyone with his channeled healing...and patched them up a lot. On their next turn, everyone ran out of the room, leaving him (the only guy playing up) alone to face the full attack from the BBE. I think they did agree to play part of his cost for the Raise Dead - the part he didn't have money or PP to cover himself. (It was the 3rd time he'd died after all).

we can swap stories like this all day... some people aren't good team players. You get them on both sides of this discussion. One of the ways I tell if someone is a team player is if they have something to add to "the party coffer"... and the most common thing added, the one that always seems to be needed, is healing. If the stranger who sits down at a table with me says... "Here's a wand of XXX that you can use to keep me patched up..." he seems to me (IMHO) to be more of a team player than the guy who sits down and says "I don't have any healing" but expects me to supply it...

Shadow Lodge 1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Personally I have seen more of the 'I won't waste my heals on the party' then the jerk 'heal me, heal me, heal me, I'm not at full'.

And yes, there is a difference between a Healer and someone who can heal. And no, don' be a jerk and try to make someone play your support.

My Gunslinger went 3 levels before buying a Wand of CLW, this was mostly because he started with a group that included a Healer and being a pistol-slinger I figured I needed to save up for some Raise Dead.

Most my other characters get it at the transition to 2nd level.

For Cons and outside my group of friends/players, I try to make sure my characters have some sort of healing.

I'll say it again, I fully support the concept of supplementing your teams healing. I am against the move to make it an unwritten RULE.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber
Finlanderboy wrote:

A game I DMed a few months ago a life oracle refused to use his channels outside of combat. In the end he only used it twice(and that was for himself), and not one heal spell. He called himself a healbot and out of combat said he would only heal people with their own wands.

Honestly him takign hits was the only real help he provided the team.

Just as the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set thinks of the other side as being like the guy in this post, the other side thinks the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set is like what's described here.

Both sides of the debate should probably not assume that everybody on the other side is one of the two sociopatic extremes.... But, each of us should also look at the sociopathic extreme of the side we don't agree with in order to see that the other side may have a point. (And, if you actually agree with one of the sociopathic extremes, then, well, hum.)

The Exchange 5/5

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I play with a lot of beginners - esp. lately.

Two of these are a Mother/Daughter pair that almost always play at the same table. At first they always did.

Their first PCs were a Cleric (mom) and a Summoner (daughter). The Summoner didn't have a CLW wand, or in fact, any means of healing. After all, it was covered by the Mom's Cleric (whose first 2 PP went to a wand). Everyone they play with knows this, no one has a problem with it. Because the Summoner has provided for a source of healing. When the pair finally split up to play at different tables, the mom said something like... "you need to pick up a healing wand, so you're not sponging off everyone else... it's kind of like the way we bring snacks to the game to share".

If a mom can teach this to her kid, why can't we teach it to adults?

What do we say to the guy who hits 3rd level and still expects to sponge off the girls mom? after all - she's running a HEALER and it's her JOB.

(edit: and they always bring gram crackers! one of my favorite treats! so, you know, I always try a little harder to bring something to share when I know they are coming to the game... I hate to be a mooch...it's the way my mom raised me)


nosig wrote:
What do we say to the guy who hits 3rd level and still expects to sponge off the girls mom? after all - she's running a HEALER and it's her JOB.

I am loathe to get back into this discussion, but here I am. The problem I have with this anecdote is that her mother isn't necessarily giving her good advice. I touched on this in the other thread and I'll repeat it here. Everyone bringing CLW wand doesn't make the party stronger than when a few people spend those Prestige on something else.

Others have pointed this out and I'll echo that sentiment. Assuming someone is not a team player because they don't have a CLW is simply exhibiting prejudice. I believe a party is better off if the heavy duty front-liners who cannot use a wand per their class/build purchase something other than CLW wands. I believe a party is better and more fun to play with when they leverage things their class/builds are able to do.

When my support characters team with fighters who have CLW at low levels, I find myself wishing they'd spent those resources on something that helped them fight better. The fact that they brought a wand means I might save 30gp if we use a lot of charges. If we don't have any way to beat a devil's DR, we all might lose a lot more than 30 gp.

No, I don't believe in preparing for the worst case scenario where nobody brought a healing wand because in my experience that hasn't happened. If it did, it's probably because no one can use it. In which case, I wouldn't play the scenario.

So I'll ask those who do bring CLWs not to auto-label people who don't bring such wands. Don't form an attitude about someone until you play with them. You might find out that the guy without the CLW was a much better teammate than the guy with the wand.

4/5

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rknop wrote:

Just as the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set thinks of the other side as being like the guy in this post, the other side thinks the "everybody should have a CLW wand" set is like what's described here.

Both sides of the debate should probably not assume that everybody on the other side is one of the two sociopatic extremes.... But, each of us should also look at the sociopathic extreme of the side we don't agree with in order to see that the other side may have a point. (And, if you actually agree with one of the sociopathic extremes, then, well, hum.)

The most common arguments I've seen against buying a CLW wand are:

"My character can't use it." This is a bad argument. Your character can't do anything with gold either, but he may run into someone who can turn it into something useful, so it's worth carrying around.

"My character will be better at his specified role if I don't waste money on healing." This is also a bad argument, because it applies to every character whose specified role isn't "out-of-combat healer." I have never met someone with that role (though I have met combat healers, and a single wand is useful for their role, it is not so great for them if all its charges are used up by the rest of the party between encounters).

"I don't want to buy it because you're telling me I have to." You are free to ignore conventional wisdom. But it's often conventional for a reason.

"I shouldn't have to pay for healing because I'm providing a service to the party which keeps them from needing healing." This assumes what in my experience must be very generous GMs, because in my experience intelligent PCs don't allow themselves to be 'tanked'.

My argument for providing your own wand of CLW is:

After every combat, I want to be sure I can top off my hit points. The best way to ensure that happens is to bring enough healing to make that happen.

Plus, if someone else forgot to bring a wand (or runs out of charges, etc.) I can help them top off so we don't lose someone unnecessarily (which can also spiral out of control into a TPK).

Now if someone sits down and says they don't have a wand because they don't think they should have to provide their own healing, they're now putting the onus on the rest of us. It's like walking up to a group of people, flopping forward and yelling "trust fall!" and then getting upset if no one feels like catching them.

The last thing I want when I sit down at a table is to be forced to take a stand on someone else's principles. It's a game. If your philosophy is different than mine, that's okay. If your philosophy demands that I spend resources on you when you could have provided your own, prepare for your philosophy to be disappointed.

The Exchange 5/5

Tempest_Knight wrote:

Personally I have seen more of the 'I won't waste my heals on the party' then the jerk 'heal me, heal me, heal me, I'm not at full'.

And yes, there is a difference between a Healer and someone who can heal. And no, don' be a jerk and try to make someone play your support.

My Gunslinger went 3 levels before buying a Wand of CLW, this was mostly because he started with a group that included a Healer and being a pistol-slinger I figured I needed to save up for some Raise Dead.

Most my other characters get it at the transition to 2nd level.

For Cons and outside my group of friends/players, I try to make sure my characters have some sort of healing.

I'll say it again, I fully support the concept of supplementing your teams healing. I am against the move to make it an unwritten RULE.

sounds like a team player to me!

what would you have done when your Gunslinger was 3rd, if the party Tank had pointed out you needed to help provide for his healing? Seeing as he WAS taking hits for the team and all? And then you realized that he didn't have any way to heal himself...

Silver Crusade

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I've said it before on these boards: if you don't try to tell me how to play my character, then I won't tell you how to play your character and we will probably get along great.

Personally, I think it is an excellent idea to have a wand of CLW. All of my characters have a healing wand of some sort for themselves. All of them are capable of using their respective wands. If you don't want to provide healing for yourself, it's no skin off my nose. I hope it works out for you.

The Exchange 5/5

redward wrote:

...snipping for space....

The most common arguments I've seen against buying a CLW wand are:

...snipping good stuff....

"My character will be better at his specified role if I don't waste money on healing." This is also a bad argument, because it applies to every character whose specified role isn't"out-of-combat healer." I have never met someone with that role (though I have met combat healers, and a single wand is useful for their role, it is not so great for them if all its charges are used up by the rest of the party between encounters).

...lots more good stuff...

bolding mine

I run two "combat healers"... I call them "Combat Medics"... both are dwaves and both have SR - which is why both have a high level Cure POTION on them, and they show everyone where it is, so if the Medic goes down, everyone knows the Wands aren't likely to work, I provided a potion. They both DO have wands, just in case they need to use them in combat... but often it is better to just walk into the combat and pull the wounded out with a Dim Hop.

and your right about out-of-combat healers... Never met one, unless NPCs at a temple count.


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N N 959 wrote:
nosig wrote:
What do we say to the guy who hits 3rd level and still expects to sponge off the girls mom? after all - she's running a HEALER and it's her JOB.

I am loathe to get back into this discussion, but here I am. The problem I have with this anecdote is that her mother isn't necessarily giving her good advice. I touched on this in the other thread and I'll repeat it here. Everyone bringing CLW wand doesn't make the party stronger than when a few people spend those Prestige on something else.

Others have pointed this out and I'll echo that sentiment. Assuming someone is not a team player because they don't have a CLW is simply exhibiting prejudice. I believe a party is better off if the heavy duty front-liners who cannot use a wand per their class/build purchase something other than CLW wands. I believe a party is better and more fun to play with when they leverage things their class/builds are able to do.

When my support characters team with fighters who have CLW at low levels, I find myself wishing they'd spent those resources on something that helped them fight better. The fact that they brought a wand means I might save 30gp if we use a lot of charges. If we don't have any way to beat a devil's DR, we all might lose a lot more than 30 gp.

No, I don't believe in preparing for the worst case scenario where nobody brought a healing wand because in my experience that hasn't happened. If it did, it's probably because no one can use it. In which case, I wouldn't play the scenario.

So I'll ask those who do bring CLWs not to auto-label people who don't bring such wands. Don't form an attitude about someone until you play with them. You might find out that the guy without the CLW was a much better teammate than the guy with the wand.

The "loathe" and the "touched upon" made me lol.

Ok to my actual point, you seem to be arguing for the corner cases and the exceptions to the rule. Fine, not every experienced player who doesn't pick up a wand of CLW will be a drain on resources and not a team player. Thats 100% true, not EVERY one will, but the thing is MOST will be.

You keep arguing that people are tarring everyone with the same brush essentially and I agree with you that in general thats bad (as is most tarring of people), so my advice to all would be, give the benefit of doubt and advice together:

-Continue to advise everyone to buy their own CLW wand because it is a good step to teamwork and is a good way not to be a sponge AND/OR not to be seen as a sponge.
-BUT-
-Dont assume everyone without a CLW is a sponge or not a teamplayer (although if they turn out to be then don't hesitate to point out to them that in your STRONG opinion they could benefit from being more of a team player)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

I'm to the point where I'd advise people "get a CLW wand, because if the forums are any indication, chances are before long you're going to run into somebody who thinks you're the worst person ever if you don't have your own. It's worth the 2 PP not to have to put up with that."

Regardless of any other reasoning.


rknop wrote:

I'm to the point where I'd advise people "get a CLW wand, because if the forums are any indication, chances are before long you're going to run into somebody who thinks you're the worst person ever if you don't have your own. It's worth the 2 PP not to have to put up with that."

Regardless of any other reasoning.

I have to laugh at this because it's exactly what the militants are out to achieve. It's not about whether you are a good or bad player or whether you've got a legitimate reason for doing what your doing. No. It's about imposing conformity on everyone else. And if you don't play the game the way they want it played, then they're going to label you and insist your are one of the lowest forms of life to play the game. I mean, you could be robbing them of 5-50gp a scenario by not bringing a wand. Doesn't matter if your clever thinking or command of tactics stops a TPK or saves a life, you didn't bring a wand....nobody should ever sit at the same table as you.

So you're right...for better or worse, most people reading the forums will be bullied into buying a wand simply to avoid persecution. Now I personally haven't seen anyone get ostracized for not having a wand and I'll bet it's because most people I play with don't read the forums. But neither have I seen anyone "demand" to be healed.

I just hope my bubble doesn't burst anytime soon. I will have my support characters buy hats of disguise as I figure these kill-the-caster scenarios are sure to pop up.

The Exchange

Its interesting, I'd say I fall into both camps depending on the level of play. Levels 1 to 7, I have no problem burning my personal resources to aid the group and to cover for the guy who spent 98% of his gold buying a sweet sword leaving none for potions, wands, alchemical items, what have you's. I would hope they are still simply learning the game and realize why it might have been better to save up for one more scenario but either way, I'll in the end donate my items/charges because its a team game and if I refuse to share, in my mind, I am the one not being cooperative.

I don't want to be the guy that was smart enough to bring trail rations to the camping trip so when the bear ate our food we still had something to eat and then decide to hoard them, bragging about how much smarter and well-prepared I was.

However that all changes from level 8 and up. At that point it becomes live or die, if someone wasn't smart enough at that level to be dedicating a budget on consumables, I'd think are pretty required for high level pfs play, I am reluctant to share. Nothing ticks me off more than having to give away my potion of fly to the 10th level fighter because they don't own their own, in the end though, I'll give that potion of away because I want to succeed and if not giving that potion away meant we failed, I'd blame the fighter and myself. Him for being unprepared and me for being too stubborn.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I don't mind if people sponge off me, as long as they mention it beforehand so it's possible to prepare accordingly. I've realised that while the creed of always getting a happy stick pronto is a very pragmatic creed to live by, not everyone agrees. And I can think of a couple of reasons why, none of them having to do with jerk behaviour.

Still, I'm going to strongly advise folks to at least get a way to stabilize people. I've been in a situation where the party arcanist had to stand there and twiddle their little arcane thumbs while the rest of the party rolled Con checks. The pain...

Scarab Sages 4/5

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N N 959 wrote:
When my support characters team with fighters who have CLW at low levels, I find myself wishing they'd spent those resources on something that helped them fight better. The fact that they brought a wand means I might save 30gp if we use a lot of charges. If we don't have any way to beat a devil's DR, we all might lose a lot more than 30 gp.

I still don't quite understand this point of view. I'll grant that there are situations where a CLW wand is not the best thing to purchase. A 1st level wizard might decide to spend their first 2 prestige on a wand of Mage armor or Magic Missile. An archer build might spend their first 2 prestige on a composite longbow. In those and similar cases, you are correct that the character and party might be better off.

But what you advocate here, and what you advocated in the other thread, is that you are better off with a situational item that will not apply in most scenarios than you are with an item that could apply in virtually every scenario. You might run into a devil in a scenario, but you'll almost definitely take damage in a scenario. I'll guess that most character that purchase a wand of CLW do so before they hit level 2. Do you expect to need an Oil of Bless Weapon before level 2? A potion of Fly (a more direct cost comparison to the wand)? I can think of 1 or 2 scenarios in tier 1-2 where an Oil of Bless Weapon might save the party, but both of those scenarios provide a way to get an aligned weapon within the scenario. So, following your philosophy, you're willing to go through several scenarios at low levels carrying an item that won't contribute at all instead of carrying an item that will almost certainly contribute, even if it's not in as crucial of a way. By the time a potion of Fly or an Oil if Daylight or similar item becomes relevant, you'll have had to survive somewhere between 6 and 12 scenarios. Maybe, just possibly, some form of healing might help you do that?

Also, an Oil of Bless Weapon is an item that is not a direct cost equivalent to the wand. An Oil of Bless Weapon is 50gp. A wand is 2 prestige. It's not a choice between the two in most cases, because you aren't going to spend prestige to get the Oil of Bless Weapon. You could argue an Oil of Bless Weapon vs. a Potion of CLW, and you could probably make a pretty good argument. Both are situational items.

The oil is so that in the event that you run into a devil or demon with DR/Evil, and you have the time to stop and apply the oil, you have a way to get through the DR. I mentioned this in the other thread, though. I have rarely seen a frontline fighter stop in the middle of combat to apply an Oil of Bless Weapon. Usually they just elect to power through the DR by dealing large amounts of damage in the first place. Stopping for a round might help them do an extra 5-10 points of damage each attack at the expense of a full attack that could deal 20 or 30 or 40 or significantly more damage per attack. An Oil of Bless Weapon is, to me, more useful for a character that is not typically a frontline fighter, but who might find themselves forced into Melee. A Bard or a Rogue who might not be able to get through the creature's DR without the oil. A 1st level fighter can typically deal enough damage per attack so that something gets through even DR/10.

The CLW potion isn't really practical for in or out of combat healing. It's a contingency item so that as a fighter, who cannot use a wand, you have a way to heal yourself or others in the event that the designated healer is not able to do so. This, to me, is more likely to prevent a TPK or save a character's life. What happens when the healer goes unconscious in the middle of combat? Or a character, any character, is a round or two away from death by bleeding out? I've certainly been in situations where my character was the only one close enough to help. Is the party better off if I continue my attacks on the creature instead of trying to save a dying party member, possibly the cleric? It depends on the situation, but if I don't have a way to save the dying party member, then I don't really have a choice. You might save 50gp by not carrying a potion of CLW, but you might save a Raise Dead and two Restorations or a TPK by carrying one. If you're willing to purchase an Oil of Bless Weapon on the chance that you run into a Devil or Demon which you can't kill from your regular damage output, I don't understand why you're unwilling to carry a potion of CLW on the chance that you run into a situation where any healing might save a party member.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Muser wrote:
Still, I'm going to strongly advise folks to at least get a way to stabilize people. I've been in a situation where the party arcanist had to stand there and twiddle their little arcane thumbs while the rest of the party rolled Con checks. The pain...

This. Although I'd hope the Arcanist would have been rolling Heal checks or searching his companions bodies for a healing potion, not twiddling his thumbs. Even with a penalty to Wis skills, it's still only a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize someone, compared to what might be an almost impossible DC 20+ on the stabilize check for some characters.

Silver Crusade

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Tempest_Knight wrote:
So a Healer who demands you do your role and also theirs is being co-operative?

No, but a cleric who chooses a role other than healer is.

Liberty's Edge

I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)

Grand Lodge

Zrinka Twilight wrote:
I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)

Ok. Aid Another action (AC). Done. Now heal me. :)

Scarab Sages 5/5

N N 959 wrote:
Rukk wrote:

The best use of prestige is to get more healths. I use my copy of Ultimate Campaigns to retrain all prestige into HP. This make me not die.

If you have more HP maybe you not die too.

What is the cost of retraining for HPs?

EDIT:
Looked it up. So it's 3 PP for 1 HP? That doesn't seem like such a good deal.

I do good with my missions. I get 2 prestige most times. So sometimes I can get 2 HPs each time I get a level.

That's like getting Toughness two more times. Three Toughnesses on a barbarian is very good.

I gladly pay a few measly gold and prestige to make me not die every game.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber
Zrinka Twilight wrote:
I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)

Translation: the tank is expected to go to the front and take the majority of the damage so the rest of the party doesn't get hit as much, but is being selfish if he doesn't also provide for all of the healing himself.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Codanous wrote:
Nothing ticks me off more than having to give away my potion of fly to the 10th level fighter because they don't own their own, in the end though, I'll give that potion of away because I want to succeed

If it means the difference between life and death I'll likely give away the potion. But if I think we'll succeed anyway and all it means is that the fighter gets to have fun (ie, the player is b~*$#ing because his character can't do anything) then I won't give away the potion. And if failing the mission by running away is an option I may or may not (spending 2 prestige to maybe salvage 1 or 2 prestige is questionable:-))

I'll also possibly hoard it if it looks like I might need it to save my life.

Bring your own stuff optimizes your chances of living

Scarab Sages 5/5

rknop wrote:
Zrinka Twilight wrote:
I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)
Translation: the tank is expected to go to the front and take the majority of the damage so the rest of the party doesn't get hit as much, but is being selfish if he doesn't also provide for all of the healing himself.

I'm right up there in the front with him, often having 5 or 6 point more in AC than he has. I case Shield Other(or the 1st level watchful eye to take half his damage, increase his AC and saves, and for AOEs I suck up three times his damage (as I get my damage and half his), and he expects me to pay him for being there too? Why does this seem like a one sided deal?

Silver Crusade

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rknop wrote:
Zrinka Twilight wrote:
I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)
Translation: the tank is expected to go to the front and take the majority of the damage so the rest of the party doesn't get hit as much, but is being selfish if he doesn't also provide for all of the his own healing himself.

Honesty'd that for you.

The tank is expected to go be tanky, and cover his own healing.

The archer is expected to be good at archery, and cover his own healing.

The evoker is expected to spend spell slots blasting, and cover his own healing.

The debuffer is expected to spend resources debuffing, and cover his own healing.

And so forth.

The Exchange 5/5

Zrinka Twilight wrote:
I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)

I play with a friend who's tank PC gives everyone around him something like 8 on their AC - maybe more. But even he brings healing to the table when he comes... so he wouldn't expect to mooch off of you.


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Having expectations of how other people should play their PCs only leads to disappointment.

The Exchange 5/5

rknop wrote:
Zrinka Twilight wrote:
I will share my wand with you if you'll share your armor with me. ;)
Translation: the tank is expected to go to the front and take the majority of the damage so the rest of the party doesn't get hit as much, but is being selfish if he doesn't also provide for all of the healing himself.

I'll provide for your healing, you provide for mine (I seem to draw more attacks). Deal?

Sovereign Court

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It's one thing to consume renewable resources, namely spells and class abilities, on healing. It's another to have to expend inordinate amounts of consumables, as they cost money and prestige points. It helps if the cost of the non-renewable healing resources is distributed among the party rather than piled on one or two people.

EDIT: When you get to higher level play, and you only have someone who is decent at healing (IE not a life oracle or positive energy cleric), and most importantly did not build their character to handle the healing role well, then you're going to be blowing through wands like tissues. I would dare say about a wand and a half per scenario.

EDIT 2: For the subject of this topic, my Ranger bought a farm vanity so he could use handle animal for day job roles. I flavored it as a jackass farm, because he was more comfortable living with his kin.

The Exchange 5/5

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Kyle Baird wrote:
Having expectations of how other people should play their PCs only leads to disappointment.

Painlords What to Expect at a PFS Table.

guess we have been setting ourselves up for disappointment for some time...

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Man, you'd think this was a political discussion OH WAIT

Acedio wrote:
EDIT: When you get to higher level play, and you only have someone who is decent at healing (IE not a life oracle or positive energy cleric), and most importantly did not build their character to handle the healing role well, then you're going to be blowing through wands like tissues. I would dare say about a wand and a half per scenario.

Or you don't use any wands because the enemies die before they can inflict any damage.

Sovereign Court

Yeah but then people get upset because you're too cheesy.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

nosig wrote:


What do we say to the guy who hits 3rd level and still expects to sponge off the girls mom?

All this talk of giving moms sponge baths has given me the vapors. Can someone heal me as i forgot my wand :)

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