|
Here are some of the options for my cleric/bard while in combat. Note, that she was designed as a skill monkey and diplomat, not a combat tough, but I try to have at least something that all of my characters can do in combat to contribute. She is level 5.
* cure light wounds (1d8+1)
* channel positive energy (1d6)
* suggestion (Will DC 20)
* charm person (Will DC 20)
* vanish
* Bit of Luck (For all d20 rolls for one round, target rolls two dice and takes the better result)
* true strike followed by a combat maneuver (usually bull rush, disarm, or trip)
She has a few other options, but those are rarely used. Notice that I did not include her melee or ranged attacks. She is terrible at direct damage. Melee is 1d3–1 nonlethal, and ranged is a flat 1d6 damage with only +3 to hit.
Has she healed in combat before? Honestly, I don't remember it ever coming down to that. But she is certainly contributing in other ways toward the success of the party.
|
|
So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?Well, who SHOULD pay for it?
The group as a whole should pay for it. Resources to save the group should be paid for the group as a whole.
Now I agree there are other things to do than heal. My control sorcerer's job is to keep the bad guys from hurting the people that protect me. I will spend resources to keep him from getting hurt. SO I understand other options healp him not get hurt, but I never mentioned in battle.
Either way after a fight someone often gets hurt. The person that volunteers to go first should not have to cover all of his own healing.
|
|
The group as a whole should pay for it. Resources to save the group should be paid for the group as a whole.
How do you accomplish this, mechanically, in PFS games?
The person that volunteers to go first should not have to cover all of his own healing.
That is fine. If that is the agreement made by the table, then my character will go first. Your fighter can provide the healing. I'm okay with that.
|
|
How do you accomplish this, mechanically, in PFS games?
Use more than one wand, persons spell list, whatever. Demanding he only use charges from his wand to keep him healed is selfish.
That is fine. If that is the agreement made by the table, then my character will go first. Your fighter can provide the healing. I'm okay with that.
I am willing to spend assests before, during, and after combat to keep people from getting hurt/dying.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
* charm person (Will DC 20)
Game changer in combat?
In combat thye get a +5 to the save, and any hostile actions from allies can break it. This spell is hard to get off in combat and used effectively. Plus they are your friend, not servant.
1. If used before combat, then there is no combat. So there is no damage to heal.
2. If used in combat, the +5 bonus only applies if they are being threatened.3. Even with the +5, a DC 20 save is nothing to sneeze at.
4. I never claimed any servitude. Friends don't attack each other.
Regardless, instead you would have her do what? Channel positive energy? She will do that. Everyone, and I mean everyone heals 1d6 damage.
|
|
* charm person (Will DC 20)
Game changer in combat?
In combat thye get a +5 to the save, and any hostile actions from allies can break it. This spell is hard to get off in combat and used effectively. Plus they are your friend, not servant.
1. If used before combat, then there is no combat. So there is no damage to heal.
2. If used in combat, the +5 bonus only applies if they are being threatened.
3. Even with the +5, a DC 20 save is nothing to sneeze at.
4. I never claimed any servitude. Friends don't attack each other.Regardless, instead you would have her do what? Channel positive energy? She will do that. Everyone, and I mean everyone heals 1d6 damage.
Hey I agree with the options and best use. I think charm in combat is hard to get off, and that was my point. I posted this not just for you, but some people play charm as dmoniate. I agree suggestion is a game changer, but charm person can get rough to pull off. I also said "in combat", if you want to pedantic abotu what I claimed you said.
You have a lot of language dependent spells you rely on.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The group as a whole should pay for it. Resources to save the group should be paid for the group as a whole.So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?Well, who SHOULD pay for it?
So because you selected a specific role, that means the rest of the party chips in on that role's costs?
Glad to hear it; I'll send you the bill for your share of my gunslinger's ammunition. After all, resources to save the group should be paid for by the group as a whole.
|
|
The group as a whole should pay for it. Resources to save the group should be paid for the group as a whole.So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?Well, who SHOULD pay for it?
So because you selected a specific role, that means the rest of the party chips in on that role's costs?
Glad to hear it; I'll send you the bill for your share of my gunslinger's ammunition. After all, resources to save the group should be paid for by the group as a whole.
In the game it is almost certain someone is going to get hurt. Someone in the group is going to take damage.
Now if you choose to playa class that is a money sponge, I am not going to pay for you to have the luxory. The same thing if a player has an ability that hurts themselves. I very well may not cover their cost expense either. Those are options that are chosen.
No one chooses to a character just to take damage. Damage happens and it is hard to avoid. If you can avoid it, great!
You are taking what was said 10 steps father. You are smarter than that.
|
|
The group as a whole should pay for it. Resources to save the group should be paid for the group as a whole.So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?Well, who SHOULD pay for it?
So because you selected a specific role, that means the rest of the party chips in on that role's costs?
Glad to hear it; I'll send you the bill for your share of my gunslinger's ammunition. After all, resources to save the group should be paid for by the group as a whole.
In the game it is almost certain someone is going to get hurt. Someone in the group is going to take damage.
Now if you choose to playa class that is a money sponge, I am not going to pay for you to have the luxory. The same thing if a player has an ability that hurts themselves. I very well may not cover their cost expense either. Those are options that are chosen.
No one chooses to a character just to take damage. Damage happens and it is hard to avoid. If you can avoid it, great!
You are taking what was said 10 steps father. You are smarter than that.
Question: my character fails to disarm a trap and it blows up in her face. Will your fighter hand over a wand, potion, or scroll to heal her?
|
|
You have a lot of language dependent spells you rely on.Of the 5 spells listed in that post, only 1 of them is language-dependent.
From charm "You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.", also suggestion.
I count 2 of his spells that are game changers.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the game it is almost certain someone is going to get hurt. Someone in the group is going to take damage.
Wait, so now we're talking about damage in general? Because a second ago you were talking specifically about the extra damage dealt to the person who chooses to stand up front.
Or to use your words:
So if someone is the meat shield for the group, and goes first taking the hits. He should pay for all of his own healing?
So originally your argument was that I should chip in to cover the EXTRA healing he needs specifically BECAUSE he made a CHOICE to be the "meat shield" (your words) which caused him to take MORE damage than other people ("taking the hits", your words).
Your claim was that his EXTRA damage is the REASON that I should chip in, and specifically BECAUSE he made the CHOICE to take that role.
But now when I compare that to other choices of roles that come with extra costs, suddenly that extra damage disappeared and it's just a universal thing?
|
|
Question: my character fails to disarm a trap and it blows up in her face. Will your fighter hand over a wand, potion, or scroll to heal her?
Definately I recently lent my torag boots to somoene for something similar.
If someone laughs at the roge that was hurt during the trap and expects them to solo that burden I do no want to play with them. I find that selfish.
Now, I will guideance, aide, and do whatever help and use resources I have to mitigate said rogues risk. That is if I could think of it.
|
|
stuffSomeone has to go in that room first. Should we all wait outside because we are self centered jerks? Or should we work as a team to mitigate that risk of the person going in first and together work to overcome it
Mitigate the risk: Aid, Bless, Protection form Evil, many other options that have nothing to do with healing.
Together work to overcome it: Disarm, trip, sunder, grapple, entangle, grease, harm/kill, etc.
As you may have noticed, as mentioned above, it frequently takes multiple people doing healing in combat to equal the output of a single enemy. At that point, if those people healing could, instead, do things to reduce the enemies damage output, by more than they would be able to heal, which is the better choice?
As an example, Ray of Enfeeblement or heal 1d8+1?
Even at low levels, there are creatures where the best option is to take it out as quickly as possible. Ghouls and ghasts, for instance. Multiple attacks with status effects. It only takes one failed save for the meat shield to be out of the battle for several rounds, even if he isn't outright taken down.
And, just to point it out, there are several cantrips/orisons that can be game changers, even at high levels. Guidance, as one example. Or even a well-timed Aid Another for AC, from that Helpful Halfling...
Not getting hit trumps healing a small amount of damage. And getting healed for a small amount of hit points has, in my experience, lead to the PC dying instead of just going unconscious. Even disregarding an enemy doing a CdG, because "that healer keeps bringing the meatshield back up", being conscious for two attacks, instead of falling after the first, is more likely to end with the second attack killing you.
|
|
stuff
Hey I mentioned the other type of help you can give above as well. So I agree there is more than one way to contribute. If you can work together and no one gets hurt because you are an awesome team, GREAT!
I also agree it is usually rare when you should heal in combat. Afterwards though if someone walks in front of me and I did not spend resources(or risk myself as well as I consider risk a cost you spend) I am being selfish.
Now after combat I should contribute to the damage the group took.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Question: my character fails to disarm a trap and it blows up in her face. Will your fighter hand over a wand, potion, or scroll to heal her?Definately I recently lent my torag boots to somoene for something similar.
I don't know what torag boots are. I assume they are not a consumable.
|
|
stuffHey I mentioned the other type of help you can give above as well. So I agree there is more than one way to contribute. If you can work together and no one gets hurt because you are an awesome team, GREAT!
I also agree it is usually rare when you should heal in combat. Afterwards though if someone walks in front of me and I did not spend resources(or risk myself as well as I consider risk a cost you spend) I am being selfish.
Now after combat I should contribute to the damage the group took.
I knew that we agreed on more than what this discussion might otherwise indicate! :)
|
|
I don't know what torag boots are. I assume they are not a consumable.Question: my character fails to disarm a trap and it blows up in her face. Will your fighter hand over a wand, potion, or scroll to heal her?Definately I recently lent my torag boots to somoene for something similar.
If they are the boots I think they are, they are boots that let you, for the expense of not moving, gain Fast Heal 1 or 2.
|
|
I don't know what torag boots are. I assume they are not a consumable.Question: my character fails to disarm a trap and it blows up in her face. Will your fighter hand over a wand, potion, or scroll to heal her?Definately I recently lent my torag boots to somoene for something similar.
They are not cosumable, they give fast healing 1 if you do not move. But the idea is I am looking to heal my teammates. I will share my extracts and spells and burn up healing(even if it is not best for the group but best for that player to enjoy the game, because fun trumps efficiency).
I have contributed towards raising people from the dead, uncursing people and may other ways people have taken hits in the game. I have seen people refuse, and that is their choice. But those are not the people I have fun playing with.
Now you can be selfish as you want in PFS, and there are no rules saying you can not be. But if you demand everyone cover your bills. Refuse to cover the group, well you do not seem like a fun person to play with either.
I do not feel because you built someone to take hits for me. You should have this giant medical bill. I get the impression (i may be wrong) jiggy feels you do.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know what torag boots are. I assume they are not a consumable.Question: my character fails to disarm a trap and it blows up in her face. Will your fighter hand over a wand, potion, or scroll to heal her?Definately I recently lent my torag boots to somoene for something similar.
They are not cosumable, they give fast healing 1 if you do not move. But the idea is I am looking to heal my teammates. I will share my extracts and spells and burn up healing(even if it is not best for the group but best for that player to enjoy the game, because fun trumps efficiency).
I have contributed towards raising people from the dead, uncursing people and may other ways people have taken hits in the game. I have seen people refuse, and that is their choice. But those are not the people I have fun playing with.
Now you can be selfish as you want in PFS, and there are no rules saying you can not be. But if you demand everyone cover your bills. Refuse to cover the group, well you do not seem like a fun person to play with either.
I do not feel because you built someone to take hits for me. You should have this giant medical bill. I get the impression (i may be wrong) jiggy feels you do.
You are incorrect.
Jiggy seems to share the same feeling I do, which is that "playing nice" means that you are NOT putting all YOUR required healing on someone ELSE's bill.
If you need a lot of healing, you need to have some way to reduce the impact on other people. If I] have to foot the cost for all your healing, I start to feel put-upon, since it cuts into MY essential purchases.
If you cannot run your PC as a front liner in order to minimize damage you take, or have some way to help you recover from that damage, why should I be the only one to cover your bill?
Especially since, if you aren't designed to minimize the damage you take, you will then expect me to also help cover the cost for your Raise Dead, when I can't heal you fast enough to keep you alive.
All this, while I am also either trying to end the encounter, too, or taking damage of my own from AoEs, attacks you can't aggro away from me, or trying to do something to help in other ways.
My last two PC deaths have been from undamaged to dead in one round. It sucks, but neither were a frontliner, but had to deal with a bad situation, either a small room, or an ambush situation, which bypassed the meatshield.
So, does your meatshield have a high enough Perception to be able to protect my non-meatshield PC during the surprise round?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was trying really hard not to get involved in this again, and I should know better, but here goes...
Everybody is right.
Finlanderboy, you are correct. If someone had built a character who takes damage for the party, taking damage the rest of the party would have taken, then the right thing for the party to do is to help heal that character. That's true whether it's a meat shield, a rogue disarming traps, or someone using Shield Other.
The problem in most situations is, people don't build characters to take damage for the party. Most of the melee characters I've seen aren't meat shields because they want to soak up damage. They're meat shields because they want to deal damage, so they charge into melee as soon as they can, ignoring what effect that might have on the rest of the party's plans. The Barbarian with a 12 AC who charges into the middle of 5 enemies so he can get a good shot in on one of them, then soaks up attacks from the other four isn't taking damage for the party. He's taking damage because he's built around dealing damage, and he prioritized getting a big attack in over taking damage. And I think that's the flip side of what Jiggy and others are getting at. People have pointed out that not every cleric is built to heal. Some are built for melee. Some are built for control. And not all melee characters are built to soak up damage. Most, I would say, are built to deal damage. Jiggy's point, I think, is that the party should not be obligated to pay for healing for every character that rushes up into melee and takes damage, because not every character that does that is actually taking damage for the group. Some are being reckless and taking damage that could have been avoided. It's entirely possible that if the meat shield doesn't charge into combat, but instead waits for the cleric or wizard to go, most of that damage he would have in theory taken for the party could be avoided entirely. So all people are saying is that just because someone built a character that takes a lot of damage, it doesn't mean they are necessarily saving the party from taking damage, and if someone is taking damage that doesn't need to be taken, the party shouldn't be responsible for healing them.
There are melee builds that do soak up damage and do it for other members of the party, not for themselves. If someone has the Bodyguard feat and is actively taking damage for another character, or using Antagonize or another ability to draw attacks away from the party, or enlarging themselves and blocking the enemy from getting to anyone else, then they truly are taking damage for the party. There are also builds that draw attacks, but avoid damage by having a high AC. Those builds arguably do more to help the party avoid damage and the need for healing than most melee characters.
And those who are pointing out that the majority of the time healing in combat is ineffective are also right. For the most part, if you can drop an enemy or otherwise incapacitate them, you're better off doing that than healing. Sometimes, however, healing makes sense. When someone is clearly in danger of dying (sitting on single digit hitpoints, for example, in front of a creature with multiple attacks or one big attack, lying on the ground bleeding out at close to negative con, etc.), or when the character in need of healing is clearly more effective against whatever you are fighting, or several other situations. But just because one character has a great axe and the other has a sling (doing sacred weapon damage), it doesn't mean the character with the sling should always heal the character with the great axe. What happens when the barbarian with a great axe drops and goes to -10. A cure light wounds might not even get him conscious again. When the cleric rolls a 2+5 and only heals the barbarian for 7 points or a 2 on 2d8+7, then the cleric is left facing the thing that took down the barbarian. A higher level spell might guarantee getting the Barbarian conscious, but now he's prone and awake in front of an enemy that's already dropped him once. He's likely at single digit hitpoints, and the cleric has given up a 3rd level or higher spell to get the Barbarian awake.
There just are no absolutes. A cleric with mind effecting spells that doesn't deal more than 10 damage on average fighting a construct with hardness 10 would probably be better off getting the Barbarian with a great axe conscious.
As long as everyone is doing what they believe is the most effective thing for their character to do to help the party succeed, then there is no problem. Sometimes that will mean the cleric should heal a party member, sometimes is will mean they should power attack with their long spear. It really all comes down to the specific situation.
[and sort of ninja'd by kinevon, but I typed all that out, so I'm posting it anyway]
|
|
stuff
I never said anyone should pay all of anything
If the group takes damage the group should come together to heal it.
The guy protecting me shoul not have to have to pay all of his healing if he is taking the hits for everyone.
If you let someone front line and they are poor at it then, advice them you want someone else to front line
If my character has the best armor class I go first because I feel it is best way to mitigate damage to the group. Not because I want to go first.
My monk often goes first because I have a high AC, perception, and evasion. Now I understand I am putting myself at risk for doing this. I do not expect the table to volunteer and heal part of the damage for the shots I took for the group, but it is selfish if they do not.
AGAIN I am saying the group should pay for the groups healing. since the frontliner is part of the group he should help pay it in one way or anthoer.
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
|
Getting back to the original subject, something that has confused me is the option "+4 to any skill check" for 1 PP. See Table 5-4, first award, in Guide to Organized Play.
Is that a permanent bonus to the skill, or pay 1 PP for a +4 to a single skill check?
If the former, I would expect more than a few people would take it with Perception.
What things other than a wand of CLW do people tend to spent PPs on?
|
|
Getting back to the original subject, something that has confused me is the option "+4 to any skill check" for 1 PP. See Table 5-4, first award, in Guide to Organized Play.
Is that a permanent bonus to the skill, or pay 1 PP for a +4 to a single skill check?
If the former, I would expect more than a few people would take it with Perception.
What things other than a wand of CLW do people tend to spent PPs on?
I believe it's a +4 to a single skill check, and only when in a city large enough to have a pathfinder lodge. I mistakenly used it once trying to UMD a scroll of breath of life, without realizing I needed to be in a city to do so. It didn't matter anyway, because I rolled a nat 20, giving me a total somewhere in the 40s without the +4. It is definitely not a permanent bonus to a skill. It's one time assistance from your faction to help you achieve something you potentially couldn't do on your own.
|
|
Getting back to the original subject, something that has confused me is the option "+4 to any skill check" for 1 PP. See Table 5-4, first award, in Guide to Organized Play.
Is that a permanent bonus to the skill, or pay 1 PP for a +4 to a single skill check?
If the former, I would expect more than a few people would take it with Perception.
What things other than a wand of CLW do people tend to spent PPs on?
A skill check is a single roll.
Other things I have spent prestige on:
o A theater.
o Scroll with multiple copies of the same spell.
o Oil of daylight.
o A porter.
o A mwk composite longbow with +3 Str.
o Honorific titles.
o Fancy wayfinders.
|
|
AGAIN I am saying the group should pay for the groups healing. since the frontliner is part of the group he should help pay it in one way or anthoer.Again, I think you are in agreement with everyone you seem to be arguing against.
I think jiggy expects frontliners to cover theier healing because they chose to make frontliners.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think jiggy expects frontliners to cover theier healing because they chose to make frontliners.AGAIN I am saying the group should pay for the groups healing. since the frontliner is part of the group he should help pay it in one way or anthoer.Again, I think you are in agreement with everyone you seem to be arguing against.
I think Jiggy expects frontliners—and everyone else—to bring to the table healing in one form or another. I happen to agree with this expectation.
Edit: Am I wrong in thinking you agree with this as well? You state that you think the group should all chip in for everyone else's healing. Doesn't this mean that everyone should have some way to do just that?
|
|
Getting back to the original subject, something that has confused me is the option "+4 to any skill check" for 1 PP. See Table 5-4, first award, in Guide to Organized Play.
Is that a permanent bonus to the skill, or pay 1 PP for a +4 to a single skill check?
If the former, I would expect more than a few people would take it with Perception.
What things other than a wand of CLW do people tend to spent PPs on?
A wise move would be to save PP to raise dead, remove curses, diseases, restore lost levels.
After you get enough to do that, there are a ton of fun roleplay things.
My gnome has a theater that functions as a drug front. You can buy servants such as heralds, porters, and the such.
Any other level 1 wand can be purchased with 2pp as well. There are a ton of great ones as well. Many people like infernal healing, silent image, mage armor, mount. obscuring mist, and many more.
|
Additionally, just because you are a healer, doesn’t mean “YOU” should buy a wand of cure light wounds.
Every character should be responsible for their own healing. Every character should have their own wand. Then they give their wand to the healer before the session starts, with permission to use it as necessary on them.
Those who refuse to buy their own wand, tell them they don’t get charges off yours, but you’ll use your allotment of spells and channels as necessary until they run out.
Ahhh....Thats great to know....
In homebrew I am always spending my resources to keep the party up, and have done so without thinking any different. I would have done the same for PFS, but I can see the room for abuse there.
Thanks for that input!
From what I've learned, keeping your wand from your teammates means the minute your unconcious, some bard has his fingers all over it, wasting 24 charges before healing you. I just share the wand.
|
|
From what I've learned, keeping your wand from your teammates means the minute your unconcious, some bard has his fingers all over it, wasting 24 charges before healing you. I just share the wand.Additionally, just because you are a healer, doesn’t mean “YOU” should buy a wand of cure light wounds.
Every character should be responsible for their own healing. Every character should have their own wand. Then they give their wand to the healer before the session starts, with permission to use it as necessary on them.
Those who refuse to buy their own wand, tell them they don’t get charges off yours, but you’ll use your allotment of spells and channels as necessary until they run out.
Ahhh....Thats great to know....
In homebrew I am always spending my resources to keep the party up, and have done so without thinking any different. I would have done the same for PFS, but I can see the room for abuse there.
Thanks for that input!
I've never had anyone complain when I handle their wand...
Though I might point out that it keeps running out of charges...
|
|
You need to download the free Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play HERE. In addition to what you are looking for, it has most of the information a player/GM needs to participate in PFS.
OK, so there isn't something called the Guide to Organized Play on that link where is it?
Somewhere along the way the name got changed to "Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide". Its free goto www.paizo.com/pathfindersociety and there is a link to it under the name "Roleplaing Guild Guide".
|
You need to download the free Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play HERE. In addition to what you are looking for, it has most of the information a player/GM needs to participate in PFS.OK, so there isn't something called the Guide to Organized Play on that link where is it?
It's HERE, now.
You resurrected a three year old thread, so some things are bound to be out of sync.
Nefreet, you posted 2 seconds after but I admit providing a link makes yours the better post.
ChinnySage, I forgot to say Welcome to PFS! Don't be afraid to post questions we're a friendly bunch.
|
|
You need to download the free Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play HERE. In addition to what you are looking for, it has most of the information a player/GM needs to participate in PFS.OK, so there isn't something called the Guide to Organized Play on that link where is it?
NM, found it on another link.