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Personally, I think the only thing stopping a fighter from being more than just a combat machine is people's perspective. You don't have to spend every last feat you get on combat ability with a fighter, that is part of the reason they get a slew of bonus combat feats. The whole idea of "if my character isn't perfectly optimized for DPR he is a handicap" is a mental handicap people put on themselves. As long as you are doing your part in combat, the campaign won't implode if you took feats to help outside of combat, or you bumped your int/cha some for some skill points or to be a little more sociable.
Meh. Fighters aren't replaceable with other martial classes. Paladins, rangers, barbarians and all have a place. They can substitute for a fighter, but they aren't a fighter. So saying "If I wanted to be more than a fighter I'd roll a <insert class here> " just tells me that pretty shinies distract you from the sheer versatility and potential a fighter represents. A paladin is always a paladin, smiting evil is his schtick, rangers will always be rangers, favored enemies and scouting is what they do, barbarians don't quit being barbarians, raging is what they do.
Fighters? They can be whatever your imagination and skills at building characters want them to be. That's what the fighter does.
I just noticed i was missin a couple of point in my stats due to high level
Updated char
The biggest problem is that both your cloak of resistance +5 and your muleback cords take up the "shoulders" slot. You can't be wearing both. If you lose the cloak, your saves all drop by 5. If you lose the cords, you are probably medium encumbered since you only have 5 Str; which means a -6 to your AC (since only a max +3 Dex is allowed).
Personally, I think the only thing stopping a fighter from being more than just a combat machine is people's perspective. You don't have to spend every last feat you get on combat ability with a fighter, that is part of the reason they get a slew of bonus combat feats. The whole idea of "if my character isn't perfectly optimized for DPR he is a handicap" is a mental handicap people put on themselves. As long as you are doing your part in combat, the campaign won't implode if you took feats to help outside of combat, or you bumped your int/cha some for some skill points or to be a little more sociable.
Meh. Fighters aren't replaceable with other martial classes. Paladins, rangers, barbarians and all have a place. They can substitute for a fighter, but they aren't a fighter. So saying "If I wanted to be more than a fighter I'd roll a <insert class here> " just tells me that pretty shinies distract you from the sheer versatility and potential a fighter represents. A paladin is always a paladin, smiting evil is his schtick, rangers will always be rangers, favored enemies and scouting is what they do, barbarians don't quit being barbarians, raging is what they do.
Fighters? They can be whatever your imagination and skills at building characters want them to be. That's what the fighter does.
+1
I'm sure that's why she noted the cords as taking up the vest slot, and not the shoulders slot. It's a custom item.
I don't see any tactical feats and that's a big part of being a tactician. I don't know how well he would do with just a crossbow as his primary weapon up to level 18. His damage seems a bit low for such a high level character. The good news is that he might be able to strike from hiding and get some shots off before the enemy can close.
Is there some sort of accepted standard as to how much DPR X class should be doing at Y level? Because +25 damage to every attack seems like a good amount to me, especially when you're critting on a 17-20.
Yes. I don't feel like reposting my other post from the other thread though. So there. Good night.Fixed it for you.
You're awesome. Thank you. I was very tired so I apologize as that post came off way more snappish than I intended. :)
Yes - but its from a RP perspective as much as 'flavour'.I agree completely, but mechanics matter too as they are how you translate that personality and flavor into a world where dice play a rather large part in how things play out. Talking about skills here. You need skills to represent some of that flavor, but the fighter gets 2+int. So if for example you wanted to play your fighter as a suave, street smart, defender of the common man who happens to have a knowledge of fine wines, you could, but when he actually tried to be any of those things besides "defender," mechanically he'd fall on his face (unless you spent a number of feats for Skill Foci). :O
First, the tactician gets 4+ skill points a level (and Lord Fyre said archetypes counted) so if that really bothers you, you have that option. And unlike Lore warden (which I think also gets skill bonuses), tactician is PFRPG, not from a setting book, which means everyone can use it.
Second, here's a fighter--with no archetypes whatsoever, who is a suave, street smart, defender of the common man with a knowledge of fine wines. I didn't even give him any traits, which would make this even easier. Didn't even put favored class points into skill points (after all, what you want requires only 3 skills). 20 point buy, average hit points (plus favored class), 4th level, WBL 6,000 gp (with mostly generic equipment; costs were estimated so I may be a bit above or below) (4th level was chosen randomly to show a somewhat experienced but low level character with the concept fleshed out). Only one skill feat is spent, the rest are all combat feats (in fact to reflect the "defender of the common man" bit).
Let me be clear I make no pretense this character is "optimized" for anything, as I'm not an optimizer, and I did this very fast, simply and only to reflect the concept described. I am certain, however, given time and thought, a very effective, combat ready, yet also non-combat contributing character could be created based on this or a similar build. Better weapons and such could definitely be picked. Traits like "charming" could be further used to enhance the build.
Male Fighter 4
Init +2; Senses Perception +0, Low-light Vision
==DEFENSE==
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +2 shield, +2 dex)
hp 31 (4d10+4)
SR 0
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2
Armor Breastplate +1, Medium
Shield Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield
Defensive Abilities Bravery (PFCR 55)
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Flail +1 +9 (1d8+6) 20/x2 trip, disarm, CM +2
Melee Masterwork Melee Dagger +8 (1d4+3) 19-20/x2 CM +1
Ranged Masterwork Thrown Dagger +7 (1d4+3) 19-20/x2 CM +1
==STATISTICS==
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +4, CMB +7, CMD +19
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT / MEDIUM / HEAVY) (PFCR 118), Bodyguard (PFAPG 151), Combat Reflexes (PFCR 119-120), Cosmopolitan (PFAPG 156) (skills chosen: Diplomacy and Knowledge Local), In Harm's Way (PFAPG 164), Shield Proficiency (PFCR 133), Tower Shield Proficiency (PFCR 135-136), Weapon Focus (Flail) (PFCR 136-137), Weapon Specialization (Flail) (PFCR 137)
Skills Diplomacy +9, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (local) +8, Profession (sommelier) +7
Languages Common, Elven, Goblin, Halfling
Eq'd Magic Cloak of Resistance +1
Gear Masterwork Backpack, Crowbar, Waterskin, Pack of Cards, 2 bottles of fine wine, Mug, 2 flasks Alchemist's kindness, 2 tanglefoot bags, Traveler's Outfit
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What I think the fighter needs is feats that scale. Just like spells do. Either the feats get better the higher in level a fighter becomes. Or say if a player takes dodge he has access to more powerful dodge feats. The fighter beyond feats has not that much going for him imo. Dealing damage other melee type classes can do the same. Maybe a little less effective yet they can do it. Armor optimization depending on how much 3.5. you allow in a PF other melee classes can get access to them too. Bravery a okay ability yet nothing imo to write home about. Weapon training decent ability. Yet beyond that a fighter has imo nothing relaly interesting. Barbarians have rage powers. Paladins have mercye. At least in 2E AD&D a fighter could get a keep and followers. The problem with me is that it's not that I dislike fighters I just find them bland as a class. Before anyone tries the usual copout of trying to make it that "it's not the class it's just you" BS. Sorry but I play my classes to the fullest both interms of roleplaying and damage output. I'm still finding the fighter class the most boring in both 3.5. and Pathfinder. With Barbarian and Paladin just more to look forward too as you go up in level. Fighters are just the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, the fighter's one of the more difficult classes to find nontraditional roles for mechanics wise. They can be fairly good at Intimidate with it as a class skill and Intimidating Prowess (it's even a combat feat!). Taking ranks in Intimidate also lines up with a number of feats that help the fighter's role(Dazzling Display, Antagonize, etc)
The Eldritch Heritage feat chain (from Ultimate Magic) is good for a few neat tricks normally confined to the spellcasting classes (arcane bloodline can get you a familiar for scouting, a number of other bloodlines eventually get you flight, etc). Granted, this will require you to have a pretty good cha, but could also work well if you take Use Magic Device along with it.
Before anyone tries the usual copout of trying to make it that "it's not the class it's just you" BS. Sorry but I play my classes to the fullest both interms of roleplaying and damage output. I'm still finding the fighter class the most boring in both 3.5. and Pathfinder. With Barbarian and Paladin just more to look forward too as you go up in level. Fighters are just the same thing over and over again.
Honestly, the fighter isn't the class for you. And that's perfectly ok. Druids and clerics are not the classes for me no matter how powerful people claim they are. I find them boring. And that's perfectly ok too.
Fighters are only the same thing over and over again if you build them that way. Many of us don't. Some of us do. That's perfectly ok. The class is meant to be versatile in its chassis but then, like nearly all the non-prepared casters, it requires the player to get more creative with the abilities that are pretty much set in stone (soft stone for a few feats).
The fighter is not the class that you prefer to play and that's fine. When people come around acting like no one should play it, that's when there's a problem. To suggest someone play a paladin instead of a fighter because they, personally, don't like the fighter, comes across as if they're telling people who like the fighter that they are playing the game wrong.
I don't see any tactical feats and that's a big part of being a tactician. I don't know how well he would do with just a crossbow as his primary weapon up to level 18. His damage seems a bit low for such a high level character. The good news is that he might be able to strike from hiding and get some shots off before the enemy can close.I just noticed i was missin a couple of point in my stats due to high level
Updated char
I was mising the bonus teamwork feat granted by the tactician ability, i chose Target of oportunity.
Somebody notice taht muleback cord and the cloak of resistance uses the same slot so i have to switch the str and charisma stats. I think the char would not have medium load ( but i do not know i just to lazy to do the math).
You could also go with a wand of anthaul, since you've got a pretty massive UMD bonus there using it wouldn't be a problem.
I think its interesting that the complaint with the fighter is that is NOT tied to a gimmick or schtick like the Paladin or Barbarian. Rather it by design is about flexibility in build. Other melee classes can do damage and are certainly fun to play, but if you want to play a warrior with whirlwind attack, two weapon fighting and combat patrol you are out of luck with any other option.
What I think the fighter needs is feats that scale. Just like spells do. Either the feats get better the higher in level a fighter becomes. Or say if a player takes dodge he has access to more powerful dodge feats. The fighter beyond feats has not that much going for him imo. Dealing damage other melee type classes can do the same. Maybe a little less effective yet they can do it. Armor optimization depending on how much 3.5. you allow in a PF other melee classes can get access to them too. Bravery a okay ability yet nothing imo to write home about. Weapon training decent ability. Yet beyond that a fighter has imo nothing relaly interesting. Barbarians have rage powers. Paladins have mercye. At least in 2E AD&D a fighter could get a keep and followers. The problem with me is that it's not that I dislike fighters I just find them bland as a class. Before anyone tries the usual copout of trying to make it that "it's not the class it's just you" BS. Sorry but I play my classes to the fullest both interms of roleplaying and damage output. I'm still finding the fighter class the most boring in both 3.5. and Pathfinder. With Barbarian and Paladin just more to look forward too as you go up in level. Fighters are just the same thing over and over again.
If fighters seem the same over and over, doesn't a barbarian feel the same? Oh, look, I leveled, I get to rage a lil bit longer and ohhh, I got new rage power. Paladin is no different. Fighters get feats. If you feel feats are lacking, I think you may want to go look at some of the feat chains, especially the longer ones. Fighters get those, easily usually. Plus the fighter only feats. A fighters class abilities synergize well with combat feats, and they get a lot of mileage out of them. The fighter is one of those classes where the parts individually don't look to impressive, but as a whole they end up that way.
By the same token, it also means fighters aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. Some folks prefer the idea of divine might, or being hyper pissed as the source of their coolness, and that's OK. Doesn't make those classes a replacement for the fighter. Doesn't make the fighter limited any more than they are to kicking monster butt and taking names. Just means they do it by skill, cunning, and strength of arms.
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With the Barbrain at least you have a choice of more than one rage power. so I never get bored. Since you have so many choices. With a fighter it's imo so very limited espcially if you take the vanilla fighter. As much as some like to deny that other classes can replace the fighter they do. I think the problem imo is that fighter unlike other classes does not have a gimmick of his own. Yes a fighter gets a lot more feats yet everyone else gets them too. Unless one multiclass a fighter does not have access to mercy or rage powers. Imo the 3.5 dev should have given a fighter something unique that no one else could do unless a player muticlasses.
I'm not saying the fighter is useless or unplayable. Just that I find them uninteresting compared to other classes. I'm also not saying I would never play one. I do think their is room for improvement in the class. If it was up to me give fighters the leadership feat free after a certain level. That way Cha no longer becomes a dump stat mo.
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With the Barbrain at least you have a choice of more than one rage power. so I never get bored. Since you have so many choices. With a fighter it's imo so very limited espcially if you take the vanilla fighter. As much as some like to deny that other classes can replace the fighter they do. I think the problem imo is that fighter unlike other classes does not have a gimmick of his own. Yes a fighter gets a lot more feats yet everyone else gets them too. Unless one multiclass a fighter does not have access to mercy or rage powers. Imo the 3.5 dev should have given a fighter something unique that no one else could do unless a player muticlasses.
I'm not saying the fighter is useless or unplayable. Just that I find them uninteresting compared to other classes. I'm also not saying I would never play one. I do think their is room for improvement in the class. If it was up to me give fighters the leadership feat free after a certain level. That way Cha no longer becomes a dump stat mo.
Fighters do have a gimmick. It is sheer versatility and capability. Remove the morale bonuses, and barbarian rage is shut down. Not evil, paladin smite is no good. Rangers get a little love at higher levels on this by spending limited resources (spells) but no favored enemy no love. Fighter? Good 24/7 with any weapon he can lay hands on. Better with ones he likes.
If the feats seem boring, then they will seem that way for any feat you take. On the other hand, if you start looking at feat combos, it gets crazy what a fighter can do. The static boosts the fighter gets are on 24/7/365, to shut them down you have to kill him. They are not situational. All those feats build on those boosts, allowing the fighter to create situations or take advantage of situations for better effect. And he gets enough free combat feats that taking 2-4 non combat feats doesn't gimp him. Depending on the campaign, it is possible to spend all his non-fighter feat selections on non combat feats and still live up to doing his job.
I get what your saying Memorax, the feats are passive, they aren't as spectacular individually as a barbarians rage, or a paladins smite or lay on hands. And your right, they aren't. Collectively though, they add up in an impressive way. And that is something I know some people have a hard time seeing, because the fighter is so versatile. They don't come with a built in focus like the other martial classes, so it is easy to spread the class to thin or try to do to many things and have nothing but 20 levels of pure combat feats and be going "Well, that's a pretty narrow class." Not saying you are doing that, it could just be you prefer classes that have "special" abilities like rage, lay on hands, smite, or any of the other myriad activated abilities classes can get. And that is fine, it isn't badwrong or anything like that. But I hope maybe I gave you a different way to look at a fighter or at least something to think about =)
@Gnomezrule: Fighters do have a schtick, it is being able to fight in any style or manner they choose and be great at it. And still be able to switch to a different style and not be horrible at it.
With the Barbrain at least you have a choice of more than one rage power. so I never get bored. Since you have so many choices. With a fighter it's imo so very limited espcially if you take the vanilla fighter. As much as some like to deny that other classes can replace the fighter they do. I think the problem imo is that fighter unlike other classes does not have a gimmick of his own. Yes a fighter gets a lot more feats yet everyone else gets them too. Unless one multiclass a fighter does not have access to mercy or rage powers. Imo the 3.5 dev should have given a fighter something unique that no one else could do unless a player muticlasses.
I'm not saying the fighter is useless or unplayable. Just that I find them uninteresting compared to other classes. I'm also not saying I would never play one. I do think their is room for improvement in the class. If it was up to me give fighters the leadership feat free after a certain level. That way Cha no longer becomes a dump stat mo.
They don't replace the fighter. They fill similar roles. The fighter can be built with flexibility in combat options, just like your barbarian can. Your barbarian or paladin will not have access to the fighter's class abilities without multiclassing so that argument doesn't really hold.
From my experience, the people who dislike the fighter the most are the ones that prefer a tighter chassis that still gives them a lot of flexibility. The fighter is so open that it can actually be daunting and make it seem like it can't do as much.
I do agree that there are some things that can be improved (I think that about all the classes). That doesn't mean that I think it is easily replaced by other classes.
With the Barbrain at least you have a choice of more than one rage power. so I never get bored. Since you have so many choices. With a fighter it's imo so very limited espcially if you take the vanilla fighter. As much as some like to deny that other classes can replace the fighter they do. I think the problem imo is that fighter unlike other classes does not have a gimmick of his own. Yes a fighter gets a lot more feats yet everyone else gets them too. Unless one multiclass a fighter does not have access to mercy or rage powers. Imo the 3.5 dev should have given a fighter something unique that no one else could do unless a player muticlasses.
I'm not saying the fighter is useless or unplayable. Just that I find them uninteresting compared to other classes. I'm also not saying I would never play one. I do think their is room for improvement in the class. If it was up to me give fighters the leadership feat free after a certain level. That way Cha no longer becomes a dump stat mo.
Fighters do have a gimmick. It is sheer versatility and capability. Remove the morale bonuses, and barbarian rage is shut down. Not evil, paladin smite is no good. Rangers get a little love at higher levels on this by spending limited resources (spells) but no favored enemy no love. Fighter? Good 24/7 with any weapon he can lay hands on. Better with ones he likes.
If the feats seem boring, then they will seem that way for any feat you take. On the other hand, if you start looking at feat combos, it gets crazy what a fighter can do. The static boosts the fighter gets are on 24/7/365, to shut them down you have to kill him. They are not situational. All those feats build on those boosts, allowing the fighter to create situations or take advantage of situations for better effect. And he gets enough free combat feats that taking 2-4 non combat feats doesn't gimp him. Depending on the campaign, it is possible to spend all his non-fighter feat selections on non combat feats and still live up to doing his...
actually, a fighter can't really do much without specializing. and they happen to be far less versatile than a barbarian who doesn't need to tie himself to one specific weapon to be effective.
fighter can kill anything as long as the treasure hordes (or the shops) provide him with his signature weapon and he never has to worry about being unable to use it.
make the fighter use a weapon that isn't his signature weapon, and his DPR drops drastically.
As I see it the fighter class represents the extreme choice on the trade off between mechanical support for out-of-combat utility for in-combat utility and perhaps shows what the developers think of as an absolute minimum of skill abilities for a character to have. On the other hand the fighter is the gold standard for combat survivability and damage per round. While other martial classes can outshine the fighter in combat they do so only situationally.
Certainly there are avenues to increase any character's skill ranks like having a high INT, favored class ranks, the human skilled racial ability and spending feats on skill focus. These all represent resources that could otherwise be spent (in one way or another) on making your fighter more proficient in combat. Allocate too many resources into non-combat options and you'll have created a fighter that doesn't fight all that well. If you want a skilled character you are better off playing another class as the costs for being skilled won't be so dear as for a fighter.
When I built the fighter I'm currently playing I chose to make him human with a 13 INT to get 4 ranks/level. This has been enough ranks for the fighter to have 1 rank/lvl in perception, a few ranks invested in swim/climb/survival and allows him to contribute to the party with knowledge (engineering) checks. Soon I'll start investing in knowledge (dungeoneering).
From a RP perspective, though, all the rules mechanics in the world can't make or prevent you from making a character with an interesting personality and view of the world.
I guess when I think of fighters I don't find the options boring I find them freeing. One class lets you play Gimli, Boromir, Sturm Brightblade and countless others. Also if a fighter takes focus and specialization he is not crippled without his favorite weapon he still has a ton of other feats that will work with whatever he or she picks up.
It is my thought, and just my thought that a character is more than the sum of its stats. It is a living breathing creation. It can be more than a fighter if you take cross-class skills, if you want to specialize in something that isn't just fighting.
actually, a fighter can't really do much without specializing. and they happen to be far less versatile than a barbarian who doesn't need to tie himself to one specific weapon to be effective.
fighter can kill anything as long as the treasure hordes (or the shops) provide him with his signature weapon and he never has to worry about being unable to use it.
make the fighter use a weapon that isn't his signature weapon, and his DPR drops drastically.
Except, with the exception of a few feats that require you to pick a specific weapon (many of which a barbarian gets as well) the fighter's feats function with any weapon. His weapon training functions with anything in the same group, and he can select multiple weapon groups as he goes up in level, so that isn't as much of a DPR loss as you think. The fighter is hands down better with armor, he moves as fast in adamantium full plate as a barbarian would in mithril full plate, and can add as much or more dex to his AC.
So, yes, fighters can do quite a lot as generalists, they just meaner when specialized. The barbarian is a much more focused class, while weapon may not matter as much (except in many barbarian builds I've seen it does) it does matter. You give a barbarian a short sword when he is used to using a great sword and no, he isn't tooled but he loses a good bit of DPR. The fighter in the same situation? No where near as much.
I know it seems like an odd thing to say, but fighters take more thought to get the most out of the class than barbarians, paladins and rangers. The other martial classes come focused out of the box for you. They don't require you to make choices as often, that can impact how you perform as much. They are, of all the non full caster classes, a toolbox character, it is how you stick that toolbox and use what is in it that matters, not what just gets given to you because your class choice makes the decision for you.
And before someone says it...
No, I am not saying the other martial classes are easy or no brainers to make effective. I am just saying that out of the box, many of their choices have been made for them is all. They still get choices, and you can bone yourself making bad choices, they just get less choices to make in areas that can drastically impact their gameplay.
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it's actually very easy to build a skill monkey fighter since the ARG came out.
play a lorewarden,human race, that 5 base skills + int then take the feats to get improved improvisation
then youre looking a 6 base skills + int, all non class skills gain a +4 and can be used untrained. over all you're looking at a full bab class with better skills then a ranger. i would even go as far as to say they can compete with a bard up until about 8th level, a bard would still be better though.
i mean assuming you wanted to play a fighter who isnt just a two handed sword swinger, you can have a pretty functional frontline skill monkey
actually, a fighter can't really do much without specializing. and they happen to be far less versatile than a barbarian who doesn't need to tie himself to one specific weapon to be effective.
fighter can kill anything as long as the treasure hordes (or the shops) provide him with his signature weapon and he never has to worry about being unable to use it.
make the fighter use a weapon that isn't his signature weapon, and his DPR drops drastically.
The only part of this that is true is that his DPR drops. However, he does not need a signature weapon and he can do just fine without one. I have built dozens of fighters that never take any specialization or focus and they have done just fine. Remember that the fighter need not be only the DPR guy. He can deal enough DPR and still do other things. If you are only focused on one trick, you will get bored quickly.
I agree that a fighter can have some versatility in combat. Out of combat too, but he needs to invest a lot more than any other class if he wants to be competent at it.
But I also agree that he is probably the most boring class to play. Unfortunately there are few good feats that give him different stuff to do in combat. Hell, even his class skills are boring.
The PF nerf to combat maneuvers coupled with the stupid Int requirement for Combat Expertise (a rather useless feat) limits maneuvers for no good reason. These restrictions punish you for wanting to do something different in combat.
Personally, I don't enjoy playing fighters anymore, although I still like building them. I try and make them more diversified, getting things like Cornugon Smash and Improved Sunder to add new stuff to do in combat. I also usually try weapons like whips or nets (but not Falcatas), as they add more options rather than simply raise DPR.
I never take feats like weapon focus/specialization or EWP:Falcata unless I need them as a prerequisite. They are extremely boring feats. I want a character that has something else to other than scream "I FULL ATTACK" every round.
So, can you build a fighter with cool stuff to do in and out of combat? Yes. Do the rules encourage you to do that? Not really. But they do make it possible.
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I dig what you're saying Lemmy, but the issue with combat expertise as a feat tax is a bit moot on the fighter :) The fighter is still ahead when it comes with things to do in combat just due to the absurd number of feats they get. You can pick up just about any of the combat maneuver feats easily, as well as things like bodyguard to use up your AoOs.
I recall an idea back from the beta where you should be able to use up your AoOs for cool things, rather than just extra attacks, maybe. Not sure what that has to do with this, but the topic reminded me of it.
What I think the fighter needs is feats that scale. Just like spells do. Either the feats get better the higher in level a fighter becomes. Or say if a player takes dodge he has access to more powerful dodge feats. The fighter beyond feats has not that much going for him imo. Dealing damage other melee type classes can do the same. Maybe a little less effective yet they can do it. Armor optimization depending on how much 3.5. you allow in a PF other melee classes can get access to them too. Bravery a okay ability yet nothing imo to write home about. Weapon training decent ability. Yet beyond that a fighter has imo nothing relaly interesting. Barbarians have rage powers. Paladins have mercye. At least in 2E AD&D a fighter could get a keep and followers. The problem with me is that it's not that I dislike fighters I just find them bland as a class. Before anyone tries the usual copout of trying to make it that "it's not the class it's just you" BS. Sorry but I play my classes to the fullest both interms of roleplaying and damage output. I'm still finding the fighter class the most boring in both 3.5. and Pathfinder. With Barbarian and Paladin just more to look forward too as you go up in level. Fighters are just the same thing over and over again.
Groups I play in allow dodge to stack, because we believe defenses should be able to rise with level and the increase in fighting skill outside of magic items. In various versions of the game, we have also found notes that dodge bonuses stack, so we stack dodge.
I dig what you're saying Lemmy, but the issue with combat expertise as a feat tax is a bit moot on the fighter :) The fighter is still ahead when it comes with things to do in combat just due to the absurd number of feats they get. You can pick up just about any of the combat maneuver feats easily, as well as things like bodyguard to use up your AoOs.
I recall an idea back from the beta where you should be able to use up your AoOs for cool things, rather than just extra attacks, maybe. Not sure what that has to do with this, but the topic reminded me of it.
Yeah I allow AoOs to be used for more than just standard attacks. It is a great idea.