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I know from a distance you can't accurately compare one project with another as to quality of binding etc and I am sure FGG has done the math. This isn't meant as a criticism at all, each product is different and I am sure this one will be great.
Oh, absolutely.
I can just say having gone through about four different printers and knowing the quality choices and the commensurate costs, the difference in costs for going "cheap" vs "quality" is about a factor of 150% price difference. So the "cheap" book might cost $40, but the "quality" book would cost $100.
I can't speak to the Land of Fire Kickstarter and what printing options they use, the volume they printed, or the like, I just know that I can get a book for roughly 60-75% cheaper if I'm willing to go with lower quality options. But I also end up with a lower quality book (alternative perspective, I could pay 2.5 times the price for the high quality print). FGG is opting for the high quality option and the cost associated is steep.
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Jeremy Smith is my new, latest hero.SG
Woot!
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Hmm I picked up Rappan Athuk and Tome of Horrors, didn't get to KS as it was under the radar for me. Just got Slumbering Tsar off Ebay too so waiting on that one.
I just gotta come out and say it though. $110 seems quite high for a 256 page book. Hell I think Rappan Athuk ran that and it was nearly 4x the size. Paizo books typically run $40 for the print/pdf. Am I missing something here :/ Maybe as stretch goals are reached the pot will get a little sweeter but still...wow. This will easily be the most expensive 256 page book to date wouldn't it?
RA was black & white.
Razor Coast is going to be full-color.
When you aren't printing the volume that Paizo and bigger publishers print, full-color hardcover books cost a LOT per unit. And that's just for the printing. You also need to pay the artists, the writers, the editors, the layout...
Having just gone through a bunch of different vendor quotes on color hardcover printing costs, I'm not surprised at the price point. Especially considering if FGG gets above threshold, extra goodies are likely to get kicked in. And those stitch-bound bindings that FGG does are a premium quality upgrade.
I'm not trying to speak for Bill or the Frogs here, I can just tell you as someone not attached to the project but who has experience with printing costs, the cost of full-color, hardcover, quality printing in runs of less than a few thousand is fairly high per unit.
Yeah. I don't really know much about the price of the stitch-bound bindings, but I do know that they are pretty high quality. And, as vaunted as the production values for Paizo's books are, the larger books in the RPG line are known to suffer from some binding problems... problems I've not heard about from the stitch-bound FGG products.
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Upped my pledge to add another book and some character pads. I wanted to get a S&W copy but then I remembered one of my friends making the mistake of saying that he wanted to try GMing and maybe doing a pirate themed campaign as something different. So even though it looks like I'm getting a copy as a gift for him, I really have ulterior motives which is ok as I hardly ever get to play as a PC (and I really want to try out a changling witch/gunslinger). Also, I want this thing funded so we can start digging for treasure!
On another note, now that you have Vaughn's "Slumbering Tsar" out and you're working on Logue's (with Lou Agresta) "Razor Coast" any plans to finish this trilogy of terror with an opus from Mr. Pett? A "Pettopus?"
Thanks for pledging John!
NO KICKSTARTERS FOR PETT! NOOOOOOOOO! Why must he have all that is mine! ;-)
Truthfully, I would snatch the chance to back anything from his deranged mind. But don't tell him that. He is a gift to the dark side in us all. Love that crazy Brit.
Well, we were going to wait to release this... but since Nick asked so nicely (Sorry Pett my trigger finger got happy)
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Not my story to tell, but a search on the messageboards should answer your question.There seems to be some history to this project I am not familiar with.
Like RA, is it an old D&D adventure being converted to PF?
The history of the project may inspire people to not kickstart it ;p
Hoping it kicks butt to be honest, intrigued at the moment just having a hard time biting...Elmore got me for some KS bucks almost missed out on that one!
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Well, we were going to wait to release this... but since Nick asked so nicely (Sorry Pett my trigger finger got happy)
** spoiler omitted **
We assume this will have been inspired by his more immediate environs over there in... ...Derbyshire.
We assume this will have been inspired by his more immediate environs over there in... ...Derbyshire.Well, we were going to wait to release this... but since Nick asked so nicely (Sorry Pett my trigger finger got happy)
** spoiler omitted **
No good can come from such a place, only vile darkness beyond the ken of mortal man festers there.
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The Blight, or Derbyshire:)
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Jules: Yes you did. Yes you did, Brett. You tried to #%&$ him. And Wilbur Whately don't like to be #$%^* by anybody, except his sister!
This made me chortle my yerba mate drink.
Nicolas Logue!
I, for one, want to welcome you back to the gaming world! Please, oh PLEASE write again!
Thanks Krome! If Razor Coast goes, I'll probably be back on the attack from here on out. Good to be back!
There seems to be some history to this project I am not familiar with.
Like RA, is it an old D&D adventure being converted to PF?
Also, are the ships offered meant to be used in game?
Choices, choices...
Hi Curmudgeonly!
The ships are indeed replicas of in-game ships - chuck yo minis on em when you play!
Razor Coast was an adventure long-meant-to-be that never saw print until it was rescued by Frog God Games.
I bungled it severely when I tried to self-publish it, but they have brought it back from the depths Dajobas' razored maw and given it a second chance.
All hail the Frog!
Well, we were going to wait to release this... but since Nick asked so nicely (Sorry Pett my trigger finger got happy)
** spoiler omitted **
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!Well, we were going to wait to release this... but since Nick asked so nicely (Sorry Pett my trigger finger got happy)
** spoiler omitted **
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heh yeah Nick took something as run of the mill as a failed business plan then supercharged it with the awesome sauce that is in his writing, the actual product we got and saw was actually as good as the failure was bad (if not better) which is why there are people who hung onto their preorders despite everything.
and Nick your writing has been missed here at least by me.
Contributor
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Quick correction: you can't chuck your minis on the ships. Wrong scale. Sorry. BUT if we fund, a stretch goal gives you rules to use the ship in Master and Commander style naval battles. So long as you have two of the same scale. We chose them to match the type of ship envisioned for specific NPCs and factions in Razor Coast, and they are getting custom flags from the book.
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A quick suggestion for a possible future stretch goal: offer a poster of the WAR painting of Capt Bethany fighting the were shark. IMO it is one of his best works, and I'd love to have a print of it to put on my geek room wall.
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Just a suggestion. Plus, I have no doubt this will be funded.
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Contributor
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Hey all,
I’ve been listening to the debate about price, and I thought I’d toss my 2 cents in. For certain, you should discount my 2 cents to 1 cent, because I’ve clearly got an interest in seeing this project fund.
So please, pocket one of those pennies with a grain of salt and mix in a few other metaphors while you’re at it. But here is how I got to thinking when Frog God told me how they’d need to price Razor Coast.
Fair warning: Big Azz Post Ahead. Sorry. Lot of thoughts. On the other hand, this shares a lot of how Razor Coast is designed and what it is and isn’t. So maybe that’s worth trudging through this [pxxt]. Edit: essay.
When FGG told me about the pricing, I tried to make apples and apples in my head by comparing game play. Razor Coast is really a slightly abbreviated Adventure Path plus sandbox, setting-lite combined into one. For the exercise on which I’m about to embark, lets start with Paizo's Skull and Shackles, but imagine it has enough Golarion to ground a setting-newbie.
So, walk with me here: Skull and Shackles gets you from 1st to 13th. Four of those volumes take you from 4th to 11th. By comparison, Razor Coast goes from 5th to 12th. It covers about the same level progression as four volumes.
For certain, four volumes of the Skull and Shackles AP includes more pages than Razor Coast. No doubt. No argument, but there are a couple of reasons for that. The first is: Paizo is Paizo. They write BIG! So, lets give credit where credit is due.
That said, they include ecology and other material. Razor Coast uses part of one chapter and an appendix to deliver straight setting exposition. The rest of the setting is dolloped in with sidebars throughout the book and built into the backstories of nearly every NPC. The design goal was to establish enough setting for GMs to riff like mad. In other words, we built a jazz band instead of a symphony orchestra.
Riff this into your home campaign. Snap it into Golarion. Put it anywhere. Yes, I know most of us do that with the material we buy. But as designers, we were thinking about you doing that while we wrote and revised Razor Coast.
If we did our game designer job, Razor Coast should be easier to adapt. A lot easier. It’s a tough balance to strike – set enough in stone to be clear and valuable, hold back at just the right moments to give the GM room to contribute in a significant way. It’s like trying to collaborate with someone not in the room, but it also means we don’t have to write as much straight setting material. More adventure.
And a different sort of Adventure beast, too. Let’s talk about that. Paizo is the master of story. No doubt. Since Kingmaker it seems they’ve also been introducing greater and greater non-linearity. I’m a fan! At what they do, Paizo is king.
Razor Coast is close, but it isn’t quite the same beast as an adventure path, so it’s a little harder to compare. It’s got everything you need to play it exactly like an adventure path, just from 5th to 12th. On top of that, all the stretch goal material will plug right in as if it had been in the main book from the start. I think that’s pretty cool.
However, Razor Coast is also a toolkit. It’s got sections that say, “put stuff in here” but also say, “stuff like this, or this, and think about re-purposing this, that way…” Or, “Plug those supplemental stretch goal adventures in here.”
More significantly, it’s organized into interconnected encounters. Shuffle them this way and get one story. Shuffle them another way and get a different story. Approach that set of encounters when you share the aims and values of the newcomer’s fighting for the frontier, and the encounters play out one way. Come at them looking to defend the indigenous people from the depredations of the uncaring? The same encounters play out differently -- and lead to different follow-on encounters. Come at the same situations as uncaring mercenaries out for yourselves? It plays out differently again.
In short, we just designed Razor Coast designed to deliver more adventure with less pages.
Assuming we did our jobs right and it works – ultimately only you can judge that – I have to confess: boy would it suck to get penalized for succeeding at packing more playability into fewer pages! Irony. Look it up in the dictionary, it says “see irony.”
I hope what I wrote just now actually explains more than it confuses. I’m always happy to answer questions, but here is one example that may clarify. After that I want to compare those numbers.
Here’s something from Chapter 2 – Build an Adventure Path: the bulk of Chapter 2 is divided by level. When you go to the section that matches the level of your party, one of the things you find is a list of adventure opportunities.
My PCs are 7th level. It says here they can (changed to avoid spoilers)…
- Take down a vicious, drug dealer who is halfway to being the next mayor
- Rescue a child from the clutches of the boogey man
- Stop the nefarious Sebastian from transforming this into a My Little Pony campaign
- and more and more and more…
And under each adventure option? The list of encounters, hooks, rumors, and everything else the GM needs to know to understand how that adventure opportunity starts, runs, and fits into the main plot arcs in the book. And how all the adventure opportunities relate and connect to each other. And how they play into the major NPCs of the campaign.
In short, GMs sit down to prep and get to think, “What can my player’s do right now that might interest them?” then assemble the answer from encounters found in different parts of the book. Or just say, "Heck – my players want to go right for one of the (somewhat) more linear main plot arcs. Let’s just do that." And the GM don't have to plan past that or prep more than that -- but they can if they want. All the complexity is baked in. You can trust the adventure to take you from there, just by choosing the kind of adventure you like.
The design goal was short prep time for GMs without sacrificing depth, complexity or player-driven adventuring. So, if we did our design jobs right...
Again, I hope I’m explaining and not confusing. But Razor Coast is a slightly different beastie than a straight AP, and the only way I can think to explain is it packs more arrangements of adventure into fewer pages because of it.
Ok, numbers. I said I’d talk about numbers.
1. For game play I see Razor Coast as equivalent to 4 volumes of something like the Skull and Shackles AP. They both get you from about 5th – 12th level (4th to 11th, same diff, right?). Paizo charges $79.96 for that, plus shipping.
Taste’s Great: But it’s hardcover, its worth more!
Less Filling: But its fewer pages!
Taste’s Great: But FGG pays American printers who sew every 16 pages into packets and then sew the packets together with the hardback cover to create a textbook quality finished product that will last for years. USA! USA!
Less Filling:: But there’s a subscriber discount.
Taste’s Great: But 12th is more XP than 11th...
Call it even? Everyone will have to decide how all that balances out for themselves, obviously.
2. The Player’s Guide is 64pp. That’s about 2 player companions. Paizo charges $21.98
3. Paizo sells their PDFs at about 69.98% of a print book. For our imaginary 4 volumes AP that’s $55.96 for the main book and $15.98 for the player companions.
4. Check my math, but that totals $173.88 for what I believe is comparable game play, set against FGG’s $140 (the $110 deckhand level plus the $30 Player’s Guide).
I could be wrong thinking this way. I really mean that. Frankly, I’ve been so far up Razor Coast’s stern for so long it’s hard to be unbiased. Heck, it’s hard to be unbiased about anything you’ve had a hand in writing, editing, developing, art directing, proofing...
5. Oh wait. What about the character sheets? You get those when you back the FGG kickstarter. How much are they worth?
6. Then there’s the sandbox design and replayability, I shared. That means different things to different people. What price do we put on something like that? I’m not even sure how to figure it. But the book will physically last through multiple plays, I can guarantee that much.
7. Getting Nick’s work out there again. I don’t know how to price that.
8. Or fixing the whole stupid, painful, horrible Razor Coast debacle by making sure the community of pre-order folk can do absolutely nothing more than the amazing, amazing thing they’ve already done: offer support and keep the faith. And they get back a 250+ page book for their 30-odd 2008 dollars. Man, I want to see that. I want the closure of knowing people Got. Their. Books. And now we're into American Express credit card territory, because for me? That's priceless. It’s what I’m here for.
9. And last but not least – have to walk carefully here so I don’t get Frog whupped again – there is a lot of excellent value coming in the stretch and bonus goals. Uh oh. Something dark and squamous shadowed my window. Better stop talking about that now.
10. Ahg, I almost forgot. FGG's $140 includes free shipping for Razor Coast and the Player’s Guide in the US, and they apply that amount to international shipping. So add about $8 to the Paizo side of costs, I figure?
Anyway, for what its worth, that’s how I saw the value equation.
Hope that helped.
PS Frog whupped involves a monstrous slimy tongue. Not fun.
Quick correction: you can't chuck your minis on the ships. Wrong scale. Sorry. BUT if we fund, a stretch goal gives you rules to use the ship in Master and Commander style naval battles. So long as you have two of the same scale. We chose them to match the type of ship envisioned for specific NPCs and factions in Razor Coast, and they are getting custom flags from the book.
Does anyone recall a ship that did scale with minis that you could move around on the mat? I think they were wooden, and there were a couple of layers you could remove, for elevation and whatnot. I think they used to sell them here, but I can't remember what they were called. I was surprised that they didn't reemerge when Skull & Shackles came out, though, and different sizes and whatnot would be perfect for RC.
EDIT: of course, you could get the same thing by cutting the ships out of the flip mats and then gluing it to a cut-out wooden base, but it was a cool prop I never did lay my hands on.
^ This is a fantastic explanation - definitely puts it in perspective for me. I'm stoked about cashing in on my 2008 investment - it's been a long wait, but I know it's gonna be worth it.
Now, I'm thinking of pledging again to get a different version of the Player's Guide. I originally chose the Pathfinder version, but would also like the S&W version. From the way I read the levels, that is possible...right?
Again, thanks Lou!
Quick correction: you can't chuck your minis on the ships. Wrong scale. Sorry. BUT if we fund, a stretch goal gives you rules to use the ship in Master and Commander style naval battles. So long as you have two of the same scale. We chose them to match the type of ship envisioned for specific NPCs and factions in Razor Coast, and they are getting custom flags from the book.Does anyone recall a ship that did scale with minis that you could move around on the mat? I think they were wooden, and there were a couple of layers you could remove, for elevation and whatnot. I think they used to sell them here, but I can't remember what they were called. I was surprised that they didn't reemerge when Skull & Shackles came out, though, and different sizes and whatnot would be perfect for RC.
EDIT: of course, you could get the same thing by cutting the ships out of the flip mats and then gluing it to a cut-out wooden base, but it was a cool prop I never did lay my hands on.
Worldworks games has a paper craft ship called maiden of the seas. You can buy it here or on their site.
Tis true! Pett DID manage to soil Greg Vaughan - I was most impressed by this feat. Leave it to a filthy Englishman to get a down-home apple-pie shining-beacon-of-virtue country boy like Vaughan to turn to drink.
I'd buy that calender by the way. Greg is dreamy. And I'm sure the size of Pett's organ defies reason. He seems like he could impregnate you from across the room. Just with his rakish gaze!
At least FGG now has their next idea for kickstarter.
From the look on Greg's face when he tried the vile brew, I don't think anyone will ever get him to try it again.
We'll see, we'll see...I still have a bottle of tequila in my suitcase with his name on it:)
I'm on board at the First Mate level. I pledged before Lou posted his latest, but reading that post makes me very happy about my decision. Having a campaign designed for easy drag and drop into my own home setting is highly appealing to me as a GM. I'm very excited about seeing the final product from Logue, Lou, and Frog God!
...Hmm, how hard would it be to take the final volume of Skull & Shackles and retrofit it as a capstone for Razor Coast?
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The Blight, or Derbyshire:)
I got my cricket bat, me burberry patterned vespa, and I'm ready for urban mayhem.
Huzzah!
Nick, we're playing Mists of Mwangi right now.
You sick bastard.
I try! I had TONS of fun writing that PFS.
@Nychus: Thanks! I've missed unleashing the awful things that pass through my head on people! :-)
Just a suggestion. Plus, I have no doubt this will be funded.
Good suggestion. I agree, that cover is one of Wayne's most sexy pieces.
Currently need $40408 to be funded.
$40,408 is what was in Marsalis Wallace's briefcase.
Pity, that Jules and Vincent had to reclaim it from the unfortunate.......Mr. Flock o' Seagulls and co........
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If I happen to win the Texas Lottery I will, but otherwise I'll stay with my $150 pledge.
My only concern is pledging $150 for the 2 books (+PDFs) only to find that they are available afterwards at a lesser price (if it funds, of course). If they *won't* be available at a lesser price, then it's all good as is!
The discussion about color printing brought back some not so good memories from when I was at Bastion Press. The company literally took a bath on color printing, because you're faced with two choices. Print more books at a lower cost, which is great if you sell them all. But you then run the risk of not selling them all, which means that you have unsold products that you now have to store and/or eventually discount just to get rid of them, or you make a smaller print run but pay significantly more per copy leaving just about no room for error on any cost overruns even if you manage to sell every book you print.
I loved Bastion's products - and I think the color helped you guys stand out in a crowded marketplace at the start. I know it was for financial reasons, but as a consumer, I was disappointed when Bastion went black-and-white.
Bill is always looking out for the common gamer in the basement - which is why I am so happy to have Razor Coast in bed with the Froggies! Thanks for this opportunity, Bill.
Mists of Mwangi...
Well, for my character, it devolved into a dung flinging contest. Good times.
Sounds like your group may be the ONLY one that played the scenario the way I envisioned it. :-)
Here's a thought: how about an option allowing the folks who have pledged to buy a print copy of a Razor Coast product to buy the PDF of the alternate version of that product at a discounted price?
For instance, say someone pledges $110.00 for the Pathfinder version of the hardback adventure and PDFs. Maybe let them add on the Swords & Wizardry adventure PDF at, say, 50% off ($20.00)?
This wouldn't generate a ton of revenue, but it could give the digital S&W version some added ROI. Right now you have far less backers for that version (PF is outpledging S&W at roughly 10 to 1 as of now).
I would jump on this sort of deal for both the adventure and the Player's Guide if it were made available, FWIW. It'd be nice to see a professional modern treatment of 0e rules in action, and the S&W version would also be very easily translatable to other retro-style games.
Nick, we're playing Mists of Mwangi right now.
You sick bastard.
Finished that a couple of weeks ago. The wizard ended up with Int & Cha 6 and Wis 7. Whilst they explored to museum looking for a spider-pig. I nearly killed a couple of players with laughter (although I would have preferred a cricket bat).
Thanks Nick, it was marvellous.
Nick, we're playing Mists of Mwangi right now.
You sick bastard.
Finished that a couple of weeks ago. The wizard ended up with Int & Cha 6 and Wis 7. Whilst they explored to museum looking for a spider-pig. I nearly killed a couple of players with laughter (although I would have preferred a cricket bat).
Thanks Nick, it was marvellous.
My pleasure! Hope you enjoy Razor Coast as well! Its got a lot of awfully dark and twisted moments inside it.