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Can a creature with a flight speed, an eagle in this case, charge and get the +2 bonus on attack?
Or is charge strictly land-bound?
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Yes, they can charge. They can also run, withdraw, and 5 ft step, etc...
Ditto for swim speeds.
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Stream has it right, as long as you have a listed speed for that type of movement you can do it.
One caveat with a flying (and I suppose swimming) creature, there are some cases where they may need to (or want to) make a fly check. For example if an eagle charges only 20' while flying it needs to make a fly check at the end of the round to remain flying because it did not move at least half its speed. (It's trivial but it still needs to roll).
Thanks.
In this case it was because it wanted to attack something 85 ft away (and having 80 ft fly speed). I allowed it but wanted to make sure it was ok.
Since "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your SPEED and attack during the action" Every race and monster has different kind of speed, some has fly speed, some has land speed, some has swim speed, and some has burrow speed. So every creature can make charge as a special attack.
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By estrict rules interpretation, a creature cannot RUN with the FLying Skill, nor can it run with the FLY spell by RAW.You can with a fly speed. Check out what running actually says:
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.It says your speed. It does not say your land speed. The Fly Skill references nothing of Charging or Running, which does not mean you cannot charge or run, but that there is no special rule to doing so. Snallygaster's Arial Charge doesn't say that it can make a charge attack while flying, it augments the effect of a charge attack while flying, which actually supports the argument that you can, or that it can't use Arial Charge, as it says when a snallygaster charges, not that they can.
When a snallygaster charges downward at an angle of 45 degrees or more, its bite attack deals double damage (or triple damage on a critical hit). Bleed damage is not multiplied for this attack.
Charge also references your speed and not your move speed. Also, can you site dive rules? Because neither the PRD nor the SRD have something that says that you can perform a dive for double damage, from what I can find.
Brace yourself, long post because of the delicate importance of chargin while flying.
Thanks for the extensive explanation--Very, very good Stampede; I read all 6 points and couldn't find any rule to support the fact that charging might be done with another type of speed... I love your definite answer but I don't understand most references for the other abilities earlier mentioned...
- Spirited Charge
- Pounce
- Mounted Skirmisher
- Charging Hurler
Im sure you are trying to explain that those feats can't be used with flying AND charge; unless you manage to attain legit benefits from a FLY spell into your mount that is (please elaborate if that's not the case).
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Actually, the Mythic Griffon's Power Dive ability you mentioned doesn't contain an exception saying that the Griffon can charge while flying, it just gives the Griffon a bonus when doing so. So considering that ability only gives a bonus when doing so, one could conclude that you can always charge while flying and that that Griffon is just better at it.
Same with Kongamato's Wailing Dive (Su), it says "When a kongamato makes a charge while flying". It doesn't give that creature the ability to charge while flying, so it must already be possible to charge while flying. Again same with the Snallygaster's Aerial Charge ability.
The death from above feat also says "when you charge an opponent from above while flying".
The fly spell says you can charge but not run while flying. So maybe the point there is to restrict your movement ability by removing the ability to run while flying, while making it clear that charging still works?
As for the Aerial Charge (Ex) ability of the derhii. That ability says you can dive at twice your normal speed and that it's equivalent of a charge in that it grants +2 attack and -2 ac, but it doesn't specify that it also carries the other restrictions of a charge. After all if it was equal to a charge then why mention the +2 attack and -2 ac at all? The fact that they mentioned that makes it clear that the other restrictions, like having to move in a straight line, do not apply. Thus it doesn't work exactly like a charge, but is instead better, and cannot be used to conclude that charging while flying isn't normally possible.
So from all those abilities and feats and the fly spell, I'd conclude that you can charge and run (except when using the fly spell) while flying, otherwise none of those feats would do anything. Those abilities give a bonus when charging while flying, but they don't grant you the ability to charge while flying. There would be no point for those creatures to have those special abilities if charging while flying isn't possible..
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I'm having a hard time reading your posts Stampede. I'm not sure why exactly, but I read through it and it just seems jumbled to me.
Aside from that, what I've gotten from your posts is that you keep asserting that the fly skill says in some way that you can't charge...but it doesn't, so far as I can tell. Please point out where it indicates this.
I hold, that so long as you have the appropriate movement type you can charge through that medium. So if you have a fly speed you can charge through the air. If you have a swim speed you can charge through water, and if you have a burrow speed you could charge through the earth. However, charging requires you have line of sight to your opponent so you need to be able to see what your charging, which means charging through the ground requires extra abilities to make happen.
Actually, the Mythic Griffon's Power Dive ability you mentioned doesn't contain an exception saying that the Griffon can charge while flying, it just gives the Griffon a bonus when doing so. So considering that ability only gives a bonus when doing so, one could conclude that you can always charge while flying and that that Griffon is just better at it.
Same with Kongamato's Wailing Dive (Su), it says "When a kongamato makes a charge while flying". It doesn't give that creature the ability to charge while flying, so it must already be possible to charge while flying. Again same with the Snallygaster's Aerial Charge ability.
The death from above feat also says "when you charge an opponent from above while flying".
And based on this, how would you explain the derhii's Aerial Charge, which just gives out a +2 bonus on the attack roll and a -2 penalty to AC. This very ability wouldn't be necessary if you were entirely right buddy--thus I'm sure this guy Stampede just hit the mark, as the rules are written, it is clear that not everyone can always charge while flying.
one could conclude that you can always charge while flying
well, im just guessing here, but it looks like you are concluding this rapidly... and your very words have a "could" included, (you know down there that all the listed abilities must be interpreted together to conclude, and this one -Aerial Charge- just marks the point).
So from all those abilities and feats, the logical conclusion is that you can charge while flying, otherwise none of those feats would do anything as they give a bonus when charging while flying, they don't grant you that ability.
The logical conclusion, even without proves? If they don't grant that ability, what is the BENEFIT wording supposed to mean, other than the overall ability that the feats gives to your char?!
It makes sense to understand that charging while flying is seriously implausible. Right now, Im also convinced that some people is just looking for a way to MAKE the rules say that you could just charge and fly together...conveniently and unlikely as it appears.
- Oh wait there are NO erratas for that, and maybe the flying rules are not clear on purpose because the guys at paizo are not profesionals (sarcasm intended)!
mnnnm...I'm starting to believe there is some people here with rpg-characters that charge while flying with their mounts as well... surely they wouldn't have serious interest on clearing this as it would affect ruling exploits, but there is a reason those abilities are there:game balance for Gyga'x sake!
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So, and I want to make sure I understanbd correctly, you're asserting that a flying charge (and subsequently a swimming charge) cannot be done because it is not explicitly called out as being able to do so? And you back this up with the idea that because a few creatures that have abilities that enhance a flying charge (and one that seems exactly a charge) that other creatures cannot do it?
I just want to make sure I understand your reasoning, because to me this is tenuous at best. The rules that monster use versus players can be different, and those abilities simply could be reminders that such things are capable. And necessary for GM's who may not often use flying creatuers.
There are no rules that say you can explicitly charge while flying, swimming, or burrowing, but there is no restriction against it either.
The way charge is written it is presumed that as long as you can move without impediment, you could charge. This is why characters without a swim speed cannot charge in water or 5 foot step despite being able to swim (swimming normally makes you move at half your base speed).
Charge only requires movement, not a specific type of movement. Flying rules don't limit you from charging. Therefore, you can charge while flying (or moving with a swim speed or burrow speed or climb speed).
So, and I want to make sure I understanbd correctly, you're asserting that a flying charge (and subsequently a swimming charge) cannot be done because it is not explicitly called out as being able to do so? And you back this up with the idea that because a few creatures that have abilities that enhance a flying charge (and one that seems exactly a charge) that other creatures cannot do it?
Well it seems exactly what he means, and there is clearly something amiss on that ruling.
I just want to make sure I understand your reasoning, because to me this is tenuous at best.
However tenuous as it sounds to your appealing, there is no rebuttal to the truth it holds.
There are no rules that say you can explicitly charge while flying, swimming, or burrowing, but there is no restriction against it either.
There is no utter restriction, for whatever reason, but maybe because it is implausible or actually too out of the scope of the game's narrative.
And necessary for GM's who may not often use flying creatuers.
Just look at the errata-sidebar on the fly rules, MORE legit indications and clarifications about flying and 3d movement complications... but it looks those are too tenuous to certain conveniences, GMs can just rule out and adjudicate a creature. PLAYERS however tend to do just that --> use rule's convenient enough to certain endeavors: what would suite your involvement?
The way charge is written it is presumed that as long as you can move without impediment, you could charge. This is why characters without a swim speed cannot charge in water or 5 foot step despite being able to swim (swimming normally makes you move at half your base speed).
We mean, well it has been pointed that if aerial charge -or similar uses- are permitted, serious rules exploits and game breaking situations arise. Do you really believe the folks at PAIZO presume things out of ruling's redaction? The censoring or obscuring of part of a text for whatever purposes causes loops and gamestoping and even personal issues at worst...
Sincere observance indicates that certain creatures can break the rules of flying, but it seems that you are just being rasping and/or merely clashing with this point (no offense intended here); with no ACTUAL prove to validate your argument other than your assumption about the way charge is written...
- dude we could as well start looking for what the grammar implications of this ruling and its context--to create an endless argument in two directions until one convinces the other... but that is not the point!
It is clear that certain creatures can break the rules of flying, and thus; it is legitimately impossible to charge while flying (or other movement type). He gives proves that support the facts, you are just ranting (IMHO). Now again, if you want to house rule it, go ahead there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing to be ashamed of when using house rules, it is relentless and certainly most customer-oriented RPG companies actually encourage this.
It's fairly well covered insofar as the run action is concerned, for what that's worth.
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Well it seems exactly what he means, and there is clearly something amiss on that ruling.
So you agree his conclusion is faulty? Because if you do, you're next statement sure doesn't make it sound that way.
However tenuous as it sounds to your appealing, there is no rebuttal to the truth it holds.
I also have no damn clue what you're actually trying to say here.
There is no utter restriction, for whatever reason, but maybe because it is implausible or actually too out of the scope of the game's narrative.
It's not implausible by any means. A strix, as a level 1 character has flight. One would imagine the issue coming up as early as then, and without the use of magic. If this is truly unclear, then it should be more adequately addressed. Asserting that swimming creatures and flying creatures can charge in the medium that have a movement speed is "out of scope" is ridiculous. Players can have these abilities from level 1. How it is supposed to work may be poorly addressed, but that would be a development issue.
Just look at the errata-sidebar on the fly rules, MORE legit indications and clarifications about flying and 3d movement complications... but it looks those are too tenuous to certain conveniences, GMs can just rule out and adjudicate a creature. PLAYERS however tend to do just that --> use rule's convenient enough to certain endeavors: what would suite your involvement?
What is the legit indication that you are asserting here? If you are referring to the FAQ that is posted on d20pfsrd entry for the fly skill it doesn't provide any relevant information that would restrict a creature from flying. Also, are you attempting to imply that I'm trying to cheat by saying that flying characters can charge? I could have possibly misunderstood the rules, but I would never purposefully misuse the rules to enable something. And I don't care your accusation.
We mean, well it has been pointed that if aerial charge -or similar uses- are permitted, serious rules exploits and game breaking situations arise. Do you really believe the folks at PAIZO presume things out of ruling's redaction? The censoring or obscuring of part of a text for whatever purposes causes loops and gamestoping and even personal issues at worst...
Sincere observance indicates that certain creatures can break the rules of flying, but it seems that you are just being rasping and/or merely clashing with this point (no offense intended here); with no ACTUAL prove to validate your argument other than your assumption about the way charge is written...
- dude we could as well start looking for what the grammar implications of this ruling and its context--to create an endless argument in two directions until one convinces the other... but that is not the point!
It is clear that certain creatures can break the rules of flying, and thus; it is legitimately impossible to charge while flying (or other movement type). He gives proves that support the facts, you are just ranting (IMHO). Now again, if you want to house rule it, go ahead there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing to be ashamed of when using house rules, it is relentless and certainly most customer-oriented RPG companies actually encourage this.
What abuses or exploits arise? And what rules have been censored or redacted? What are you even talking about?
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Forgive me for seeming such a fool, but what the heck is the argument against charging using another speed, besides land speed?
What is being said, to me, seems to be garbled ranting, moving in no clear direction.
Why don't you create a concise bullet list of reasons, as to why the charge is restricted to land speed only?
Us of lesser minds do hope to grasp this immensely profound logic, that has lead you to this conclusion.
So you are having hard time because of charge attack... Look there're many ways to stop a charge, Pounce, Mounted Skirmisher.
1st: Difficult terrain. But Minotaur Belt ignores it.
2nd: Fatigue. You can't charge under fatigue condition. Ray of Exhaustion, and Wave of Fatigue spells work very well.
3rd: Strong winds. Flying creatures have to make hard fly skill checks. If they want to charge under this condition.
I don't see any point why you can not handle charge attack...
By the way Death from Above (Mythic) does not grant you free action to trip attempt, the feat only increase critical multipler by 2
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I'll try to translate the primary point against non-land-speed charges:
There's a special ability for a single creature that appears to be an Aerial version of charge (rather than an extension or improvement on charge). If this ability is needed to charge while flying for this creature, no other creatures can charge while flying.
Stampede also finds the concept of burrowing or swimming charges to be ridiculous. I disagree...
For Burrowing Creatures: Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. This is explicitly noted in the text for the Burrow ability in 3.5 SRD (the PRD doesn't have any text for Burrow or Burrow Speeds itself, apparently). That said, as it isn't explicitly disallowed in the PRD it shoudl be allowed. If allowed, a Bulette would definitely be a candidate, and even has a charge-based improvement ability requiring a leap (which I could totally see it doing when starting the round underground to burst out of the ground and into the air, then land and attack).
For Swimming Creatures: I'd say a Shark can, would, and does frequently charge while swimming. Similarly, the Tritons explicitly use cavalry tactics, which would certainly include charging while on their aquatic mounts. Heck, that one even has Ride-By Attack as a feat, and they rarely leave the water and are explicitly noted as using dolphins as aquatic mounts. What the point even be if they couldn't charge, since that explicitly requires the use of a charge action?
Further, Flight lacks the specific verbiage restricting charges and running that is present in Burrow. The Strix Archetype Airborne Ambusher has an ability that explicitly enhances a charge made while flying with bonuses above those of a normal charge including fly speed.
In regards to the original question, the Ranger Archetype Falconer gives their pet a special bonus trick Swooping Charge. This is just a trick, not a new Ex or Su, and gives it additional bonuses -- but also specifies that the bird uses a Charge action to gain them, cementing that Charge is allowed for Flying creatures.
I'll try to translate the primary point against non-land-speed charges:
There's a special ability for a single creature that appears to be an Aerial version of charge (rather than an extension or improvement on charge). If this ability is needed to charge while flying for this creature, no other creatures can charge while flying.
Stampede also finds the concept of burrowing or swimming charges to be ridiculous. I disagree...
For Burrowing Creatures: Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. This is explicitly noted in the text for the Burrow ability in 3.5 SRD (the PRD doesn't have any text for Burrow or Burrow Speeds itself, apparently). That said, as it isn't explicitly disallowed in the PRD it shoudl be allowed. If allowed, a Bulette would definitely be a candidate, and even has a charge-based improvement ability requiring a leap (which I could totally see it doing when starting the round underground to burst out of the ground and into the air, then land and attack).
For Swimming Creatures: I'd say a Shark can, would, and does frequently charge while swimming. Similarly, the Tritons explicitly use cavalry tactics, which would certainly include charging while on their aquatic mounts. Heck, that one even has Ride-By Attack as a feat, and they rarely leave the water and are explicitly noted as using dolphins as aquatic mounts. What the point even be if they couldn't charge, since that explicitly requires the use of a charge action?
Further, Flight lacks the specific verbiage restricting charges and running that is present in Burrow. The...
Excellent points. Thank you.
As a note, it is disappointing that burrow rules are not properly included in the rule set. I think probably RAI you can't charge while burrowing, but any rules related to burrow were not included in the core rule book or anywhere in the PRD. The only rules for burrow are the burrow spell, which may or may not be the normal function for burrowing. It is impossible to know for certain.
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A few points:
Speed: The creature's land speed, and additional speeds as necessary for the creature.
Flight (Ex or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
(The issue I would say arises here is that you can't charge a creature above you because you have to ascent at half speed)
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
At no point does charge specify land speed, only speed. Speed is defined as landspeed and any additional speeds, for example some creatures only have a fly speed, for example, according to the argument above Air Elementals can't charge, period.
Now your first point had to do with this:
Aerial Charge (Ex)
When a snallygaster charges downward at an angle of 45 degrees or more, its bite attack deals double damage (or triple damage on a critical hit). Bleed damage is not multiplied for this attack.
By your own logic, this doesn't work at all. Since you can't charge and fly, this ability can only work by RAW when he is charging down a 45 deg slope, since nothing in the ability mentions flying other than the name.
Furthermore your own examples support flying charges such as Death from Above and then you quote 3.5 rules that don't apply to Pathfinder.
As for Run
Speed
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell. Your speed depends mostly on your size and your armor.
Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have a speed of 20 feet (4 squares), or 15 feet (3 squares) when wearing medium or heavy armor (except for dwarves, who move 20 feet in any armor).
Humans, elves, half-elves, half-orcs, and most humanoid monsters have a speed of 30 feet (6 squares), or 20 feet (4 squares) in medium or heavy armor.
If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a “double move” action), you can move up to double your speed. If you spend the entire round running, you can move up to quadruple your speed (or triple if you are in heavy armor).
Nothing in here limits Run to ground speed, they just provide examples that are limited to the ground. As shown in the monster rules, speed refers to ALL types of movement and specifically refers to landspeed as one type.
In fact they have to specify you can't Run with the fly spell because normally you can. The reference to charge is to make sure that it is clear you still can even though you can run because so many effects that prevent running also prevent charging, like Fatigue and Exhaustion.
When you have a speed you can do the following according to RAW, 5' step, run and charge unless specifically forbidden by the mechanics of the ability (no LoS for earthglide) or listed limitations (Running with the fly spell).
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Stampede, your posts are so full of misspellings and malapropisms, it is very difficult to comprehend all of your statements.
You do realize most of your examples actually support that flying creatures can charge, right?
Kongamato Wailing Dive
"When a kongamato makes a charge while flying or uses its Flyby Attack feat, the creature's body becomes infused with energy, causing its bite to deal an extra +1d6 points of sonic damage on that attack."
It doesn't allow the kongamato to charge, just that if it does so the attack deals extra sonic damage.
Mythic Griffin Power Dive
"A flying mythic griffon can move up to four times its speed when it charges. If its charge begins 40 or more feet above its target, its first attack deals double damage. It must be flying downward at an angle of 45 degrees or steeper to use this ability."
Doesn't grant the ability to make a charge, just increases how far it can move, and possibly the damage, if it does so.
Snallygaster Aerial Charge
"When a snallygaster charges downward at an angle of 45 degrees or more, its bite attack deals double damage (or triple damage on a critical hit). Bleed damage is not multiplied for this attack."
Again, doesn't say it grants the ability to charge, only that it increases the damage if it does so.
Death from Above
"Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying, you gain a +5 bonus on attack rolls in place of the bonuses from charging and being on higher ground."
Increases the bonus from charging, does not grant the ability to charge.
Mythic Death from Above
"Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying, the critical multiplier of your weapon increases by 2 (to a maximum of ×6). This doesn't stack with other abilities that increase a weapon's critical multiplier. If your charge attack hits, you can perform a trip combat maneuver against the attack's target as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity."
Again, provides an additional benefit to charging, but doesn't grant the ability to charge.
All of these abilities grant a bonus when charging, but don't state they allow you to charge. So, all of these abilities would provide no benefit and have no need to exist if you couldn't charge while flying without them.
Further, nothing in the Fly skill, Fly speed, or Charge rules indicate charging doesn't work while flying.
The skill doesn't mention charging, yea or nay, but does say you only have to make a skill check in certain circumstances. So the absence of the charge action only means it isn't one of the circumstances that the Fly skill is relevant.
The Fly speed entry doesn't have a restriction on charging, like say Climb does for Running.
And Charging only references "movement" and "speed." Flying is both a movement, and a speed. Further, your supposition that it is only intended to apply to land speed because that's all PCs have naturally falls flat, as the rules for charging don't only apply to PCs but to every creature in the game. Notice how the size modifiers for CMB/CMD include sizes that no PC will start with? That's because the rules have to take all creatures in the game into account, not just assumed medium sized PCs with only a land speed.
Against all this, you basically have the Derhii Aerial Charge, and your own personal opinion that it is ridiculous in concept/exploitative. But your one supporting example is much more likely to be in error than all the others simultaneously, and your opinion is just that. Most of us have no issue with the idea of a flying (or swimming) charge.
In summary, Yes, you can Charge with your Fly speed.
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Brace yourself, long post because of the delicate importance of chargin while flying.
1) First point:
Since "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your SPEED and attack during the action" Every race and monster has different kind of speed, some has fly speed, some has land speed, some has swim speed, and some has burrow speed. So every creature can make charge as a special attack.Not meaning to be rude Quaratorn, but following rules exactly, can you please mark where in the rules can you CHARGE while swimming? Maybe you can indicate what creature could charge while simultaneously burrowing? Dude, Im not meaning to be tenacious, but you gotta be kidding with this steadfast determination of using charge at a highly convenient level...you see even with the "freedom of movement" spell, one could not charge while swimming. Perhaps you can read below a firm explanation that validates this argument.
2) Second Point:
... You can with a fly speed. Check out what running actually says:You are evil, evilpaladin; this comes essentially clear with running, the RUN option is obviously intended to use with regular movement. A player character normally has a walking speed--for this reason, the explanatory text does not say it can be used with Flying speed. The game wouldn't allow you to fly by regular means, you would need Good maneuverability derived from the the Fly spellYou can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.It says your speed. It does not say your land speed.(...) Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a...
I'd like to say 2 things here:
1:I sincerely apologize if I came off as dense, harsh, evil, difficult, or exploitative in my post, as I never intend to come off as such when posting [but have a terrible time portraying my tone over the text medium sometimes]. In this case, I was merely intending to provide my view of the rules objectively, and ask where some rules you referenced were listed. I don't see this as exploitative [charging isn't all that powerful for 1, and 2 that is actually how I read the rules when I was reading them], and it seems your interpretation of the rules is different.
2:I stand by my opinion that there is nothing limiting a Run or Charge action while flying, as there are rules that augment a flying charge without granting the ability to makie [and this may seem dense, but it is me reading that an ability does what it says and no more, not intended as dense] so the flying charge must be a general case and not a specific case from how I infer. I see many of the things that you listed as "clear as water" as if it were "clear as water" yet supporting the flying charge. I see nothing "Gray" or "Ambiguous" here, but I see it supporting the idea of a flying charge. However since A:This is my interpretation as to RAW[and there can be many] and clearly not yours, and B:Not going to have much of an effect on me*, I will simply agree to disagree with you.
*In PFS, if this is an issue, I will consult the VL or VC in the area[there pretty much always is in the area I play], and in a homegame I will ask the players which interpretation they infer.
guys, Not just trying to fight or start annoying anyone--sorry for any misdirection; I would also state that I'm sometime vague and perhaps even misleading but that is because I don't believe some answers are Black and White, mostly to make some think beyond what's there.
Things should be clear enough here; not a simple you can't or yes you can--derived of interpretation. But then comes the issue of how there is no restriction, which opens the opportunity of rule´s breaking…which actually becomes troublesome.
I still maintain my argument that defends this interpretation/adjudication, because it has the possibility of changing further errata, if in not mistaken. this guy Stamp is actually unveiling something not clearly sanctioned in our group, and certainly not fairly exposed to Pathfinders gamers on its entirely.
Get a little bit of this: just as a power-gamer expends his resources to break the game, we should be resolute AND not give away this benefit without knowing the implications...
My apologies if anyone has been offended by some of these propositions...
we're just trying to be constructive here, tending to build up some sense when it comes to the subject of other claims that form an opinion or supposition about something on the basis of incomplete information.
For starters, just as in any thread, lets stay in topic.
So you are having hard time because of charge attack... Look there're many ways to stop a charge, Pounce, Mounted Skirmisher.
1st: Difficult terrain. But Minotaur Belt ignores it.
2nd: Fatigue. You can't charge under fatigue condition. Ray of Exhaustion, and Wave of Fatigue spells work very well.
3rd: Strong winds. Flying creatures have to make hard fly skill checks. If they want to charge under this condition.I don't see any point why you can not handle charge attack...
By the way Death from Above (Mythic) does not grant you free action to trip attempt, the feat only increase critical multipler by 2
- Ways to stop a Charge attacks has nothing to do with this thread
- Death from Above (Mythic) actually grants a trip attempt, Look here
If your charge attack hits, you can perform a trip combat maneuver against the attack's target as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Oppps! it looks like someone is being blind, but don't worry it is very natural to miscalculate when just trying to fight instead of being helpful.
Charging while flying isn't normally possible. why? Because of the Flying rules and how they interact in the game, not because it can be concluded from interpretation of certain abilities that give a bonus when "actually" charging while flying.
And where do these flying rules say that you cannot charge while flying? The charge rules say that you can move up to twice your speed, the charge rules do not have any limitations on which kinds of speeds can and cannot be used so it's either all speeds, or none. If it's none then nobody can charge, obviously not the case, so it works with all speeds.
Now where do the flying rules, or the swimming rules for that matter, counter this, by saying that you cannot charge while flying/swimming?The charge rules enable you to charge with any speed, not a specific speed type, and the flying rules do not override the charge rules by disallowing the usage of the fly speed for charging.
You also mention fly spell contradictions, but there are no contradictions there. The fly spell says you can charge but not run. This clears up that you can only fly up to 120ft per round (2 move actions or a charge), but no more, unless you are descending. Normally when running you go beyond your usual speed, but with this spell it isn't possible to do that, but you can still charge.
Aerial Charge also isn't a contradiction.
"When airborne, a derhii can dive at twice its normal flying speed. This is the equivalent of a charge, granting a +2 bonus on the attack roll and a -2 penalty to AC."
This ability says that diving down at twice your normal flying speed is equivalent to a charge, and grants you a +2 bonus on attack and -2 to AC. Just because they are equivalent doesn't mean they are the same thing. This dive is the equivalent of a charge, but it missing the restriction that you have to move in a straight line, like with a charge. That is because it isn't equal to a charge, just equivalent. The dive could be a curve where you start going down steep to pick up speed, and in the latter part move more horizontally.
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Not meaning to be rude here, but thanks for pointing misspellings and malapropisms to see if I can waive them in the future. Maybe it's because in my country, English is not a native language.
Now as far as your perfect references; It is clear that you enjoy creative and intelligible explanations, but still--there is no prove that you can legitimately and entirely charge with another movement type other than base speed. Of course we can't concur on fancy statements about personal or involving opinions; but the fact is there are neither rules to support this gaming-option, not rules to confirm it. And of course that even with only one supporting example that is much more likely to be in error than all the others simultaneously, you not anyone can deny that the truth of this statement(that flying-charge is not something to speculate validating). Do you really believe the folks at PAIZO presume things out of ruling's redaction? Sincere observance indicates that certain creatures can break the rules of flying. As you already know what, I must remark to advise again of the importance of checking this with your GM--to negate opportunities to be misguided by comlex ruling such as this.
You are trying to communicate your opinion. Pointing out that there are difficulties understanding your arguments to support that opinion isn't a personal attack, it is simply pointing out there are difficulties understanding your arguments. I understand most of the world doesn't speak English, so its not something I hold against anyone. But that doesn't remove the impediment to understanding.
Your main question to me seems to be do I think the developers would presume that a rule (charge) that refers to movement applies to all movement modes rather than one specific mode, given that they never included any limitations in the rules for charging or flying. Yeah, I think we can presume that.
You seem to admit that nothing in the rules prevent flying charges, but hold that since no rule explicitly permits it that there is ambiguity. I disagree. The term "movement" and "speed" include all movement and speed unless there is a restriction stated. No restriction is stated, so it isn't there.
One thing I would like to revisit is your continued question on the DC for a Flying charge. There isn't a DC because a skill check isn't required. The Fly skill states a check is only required in certain circumstances. So long as you move at least half your speed, you can stop at any point and you don't stall out. Since you quite likely move at least half your speed when making a charge, you don't have to worry about making a Fly check. A charge is simply movement and an attack. Nothing in the Fly skill removes the ability to move and attack. The limitations require you to move at least so much, which is certainly possible while charging. Even if you only charged the minimum 10 feet, then you would have to make the Fly check, not for charging, but for moving less than half your speed.
You can charge while flying. The evidence is in the rules. I won't go into anymore addition proof. You can see it in the charge ability (speed) and the definition of speed (bestiary). All the arguments against do not provide proof but rather support this concept.
Sure Mr Taenis, if we are taking something for granted; and if we look ONLY at conclusions and interpretation. But ¨evidence,¨ not really...thats conjecture--there is only evidence that PAIZO left this matter with ¨clumsy¨ ruling.
I concurred that some GMs may rule it possible (mostly everyone´around this forum), but sincerely if these altercations don´t provide a proof from were you stand, and rather support this concept; this theory so formed or expressed will never find a place in your game (No personal remarks intended).
Samasboy1:You are trying to communicate your opinion. Pointing out that there are difficulties understanding your arguments to support that opinion isn't a personal attack, it is simply pointing out there are difficulties understanding your arguments. I understand most of the world doesn't speak English, so its not something I hold against anyone. But that doesn't remove the impediment to understanding.Your main question to me seems to be do I think the developers would presume that a rule (charge) that refers to movement applies to all movement modes rather than one specific mode, given that they never included any limitations in the rules for charging or flying. Yeah, I think we can presume that.
You seem to admit that nothing in the rules prevent flying charges, but hold that since no rule explicitly permits it that there is ambiguity. I disagree. The term "movement" and "speed" include all movement and speed unless there is a restriction stated. No restriction is stated, so it isn't there.
One thing I would like to revisit is your continued question on the DC for a Flying charge. There isn't a DC because a skill check isn't required. The Fly skill states a check is only required in certain circumstances. So long as you move at least half your speed, you can stop at any point and you don't stall out. Since you quite likely move at least half your speed when making a charge, you don't have to worry about making a Fly check. A charge is simply movement and an attack. Nothing in the Fly skill removes the ability to move and attack. The limitations require you to move at least so much, which is certainly possible while charging. Even if you only charged the minimum 10 feet, then you would have to make the Fly check, not for charging, but for moving less than half your speed.
We just think it's a half-assed solution--Mostly to rather have a GM said yes this works or no it doesn't. Though as we don't actually game with you guys, what we want is a kinda moot feeling in the game, not oportunity for something beyond...
So we can and will agree with your previous posts, that the exact way that charging rules are supposed to work in the flying-ground is clear enough to be used as it is: But then comes the issue of how there is no restriction, which opens the oportuniuty of rule´s breaking and here is why I can´t coincide 100%. Why? because Burrow and Climb and Swim are complex rules and they should not be open to ANY speculation...which just marks the fact that it was probaly intentional.
Now, if this is not a problem in your game, it is logical that you wouldn't see how this argument fits your criteria. Maybe to accord a little bit; you must know this is not just entertaining a personal opinion but an anomally pertaining to a particular explanatory text that doesn't add to proper understanding of how this (charging fly) is ultimately used.
So, how can you (or anyone) deny the importance of checking this with your GM. Something that I must remark again and again since your counseling and declarations just enhance that this is supposedly, clear enough to everyone...
When it comes to the subject of the Flying skill, your advise comes in very handy. Is there something you can add to about how-if charging fly is allowed- would a flying creature charge an adversary above, say at a 45 degrees and 20 feet away position? It seems to require further indications...since going upward takes twice the effort. (?)
Thansk for any cooperation.
Flying and charging upward: Definitely not allowed. That would be the equivalent of difficult terrain. Anything that slows you (such as the reduced speed from moving upward while flying) prevents the charge action, as noted in the charge rules. Specifically: "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that ... slows movement ... you can't charge." Flying upwards slows movement, therefore you can't charge.
Fly: Reading the rules for the Fly skill, there's nothing explicitly allowing or restricting movement beyond normal. There's definitely nothing wrong with a double move, and therefore all conditions for a Charge against a target at your own height or below and sufficiently far away can be met (assuming no wind or other obstacles). Run isn't settled, but I don't see any reason to disallow the general rule without a specific rule to trump it (e.g. the Fly Spell has a specific restriction).
Swim: Explicitly allows creatures with a swim speed to run. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't charge as long as you have a swim speed - if you need to make a Swim Check to move, you're hampered by default (and can get up to half-speed at best). Again, I point to the Triton, who has listed in the base version Ride-By Attack, but the most common version (which is what that base description and stat block should describe) very rarely leaves the water, and rides only aquatic mounts such as a Dolphin which does not have any special "Swimming Charge" qualities. There's nothing difficult here being "opened up" or "complex" about the uses of Swim Speed, even if Flying Charges are allowed.
Burrow: No specific rules on this at all (so I don't know what the "complex rules" you're referring to for this are). If you fall back to 3.5, running and charging are not allowed. If you don't, as long as they have a clear line to the target and are aware of the target, there's no reason to say they can't charge or run.
Climb: Run is explicitly disallowed, but a double movement is allowed with a Climb Check. That said, a Climb Check is required for all movement on surfaces above DC 0 (even if they will auto-succeed as they are always allowed to Take 10). I'd consider that impaired movement/difficult terrain, and disallow Charges any time a climb check is required (which is almost all the time you're using Climb Speed rather than Land Speed).
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It's fairly well covered insofar as the run action is concerned, for what that's worth.
Sorry, here's the correct link.
Forgive me if I muddle this issue any further, yet I feel compelled to interject my opinion.
I agree that running and charge can apply to most forms of movement unless specifically stated otherwise (such as fly spell restricting running).
As for the example of Derhii Aerial Charge, I believe it is a special ability because it allows the creature to move in a downwards charge without a fly skill check. Other creatures would have to make a fly skill check if descending at greater than a normal fly speed (unless they have a similar ability).
I'm totally agree with the "you can charge while flying", the rules are totally on this side. Stampede and Benneth are trying to argue the opposite, but none of their arguments are against the flying charge. Rather those arguments are on the side of "you can". I think they read single rules separate from each other, so they can't see the cross reference. That said, just a note:
As for the example of Derhii Aerial Charge, I believe it is a special ability because it allows the creature to move in a downwards charge without a fly skill check. Other creatures would have to make a fly skill check if descending at greater than a normal fly speed (unless they have a similar ability).
This ability is an ability equivalent to a charge. So you treat it as a charge (even the need of straight line) , but you deal double damage. That said, nobody needs fly checks to descent at greater speed than the base speed.
Flying and charging upward: Definitely not allowed. That would be the equivalent of difficult terrain. Anything that slows you (such as the reduced speed from moving upward while flying) prevents the charge action, as noted in the charge rules. Specifically: "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that ... slows movement ... you can't charge." Flying upwards slows movement, therefore you can't charge.
I'd just like to make a point here. There's nothing stating that you are slowed by flying/charging upward. You move half the speed at a 45 degree angle as if you were moving diagonally across an open field.
There is no indication that you move at half speed when ascending directly upwards. (Unless you are using the Fly spell)
You move at half speed when moving diagonally on your gaming grid, this is usually represented by counting every other square as a double. I.E.
First diagonal square costs 5ft of movement, the second diagonal square costs 10ft, the third costs 5ft, and so on.
Flying upward diagonally would do the same thing.
The standard rules are read assuming 2D combat, not 3D combat. Hence the need for the FAQ.
I also just realized this thread was necro'd. I was going to mark for an FAQ when I realized this thread stopped in 2012.
Should I still mark for FAQ?
Sure. It's been interesting to me to read, even though old. :)
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I think the evidence is pretty clear, you charge your speed, your speed is defined in the Bestiary as specific types of movement. Not sure how much simpler it gets.
As for a flying charge upwards being allowed, I took the requirement of charge to not be hindered to indicate that anything that slows your movement prevents charge, in this I might be incorrect. If that is not accurate then you can charge upwards, if not you can't.
Sindalla raised a very good point, you only move at half speed up to account for diagonal movement which is not "hindering" but a mechanism to calculate distance traveled. I would tend to agree with him on this one.
Half speed would be every square counts as two squares of movement. Counting every other square as two squares of movement is 3/4 speed.
Good catch on that part, I didn't think that all the way through.
I don't think that's what was intended. If you are flying straight up (provided you can and I'm going to presume most monsters cannot) it would still be half movement, because you are ascending.
The fly rules don't say anything about moving at half movement when ascending. Unless it's referring to ascending at 45 degree angle.
Extra note: Listed in the fly skill, there is a DC 20 for ascending up at greater than a 45 degree angle. However, it does not say you must make the check AND move at half speed. They are two separate things.
I could be missing it, but I think the ascending at half speed is only for if you're doing so at a 45 degree angle.
If it says they rise at half speed regardless of the angle, could you post the quote with either bold or italics for me please?
Thank you! =)