Charging while flying isn't normally possible. why? Because of the Flying rules and how they interact in the game, not because it can be concluded from interpretation of certain abilities that give a bonus when "actually" charging while flying.
And where do these flying rules say that you cannot charge while flying? The charge rules say that you can move up to twice your speed, the charge rules do not have any limitations on which kinds of speeds can and cannot be used so it's either all speeds, or none. If it's none then nobody can charge, obviously not the case, so it works with all speeds.
Now where do the flying rules, or the swimming rules for that matter, counter this, by saying that you cannot charge while flying/swimming?
The charge rules enable you to charge with any speed, not a specific speed type, and the flying rules do not override the charge rules by disallowing the usage of the fly speed for charging.
You also mention fly spell contradictions, but there are no contradictions there. The fly spell says you can charge but not run. This clears up that you can only fly up to 120ft per round (2 move actions or a charge), but no more, unless you are descending. Normally when running you go beyond your usual speed, but with this spell it isn't possible to do that, but you can still charge.
Aerial Charge also isn't a contradiction.
"When airborne, a derhii can dive at twice its normal flying speed. This is the equivalent of a charge, granting a +2 bonus on the attack roll and a -2 penalty to AC."
This ability says that diving down at twice your normal flying speed is equivalent to a charge, and grants you a +2 bonus on attack and -2 to AC. Just because they are equivalent doesn't mean they are the same thing. This dive is the equivalent of a charge, but it missing the restriction that you have to move in a straight line, like with a charge. That is because it isn't equal to a charge, just equivalent. The dive could be a
...
Both the facts that this very thread was started and your clearly comprehensible posts, are prove that this is ultimately GM's Call.
This goes for everyone taking notice -- Again, there is nothing to be ashamed of when using house rules, it is relentless and certainly most customer-oriented RPG companies actually encourage this.
I'm not meaning to be stubborn here, but please don't hesitate to contact your DM/GM. I can but insist that allowing this is clearly something that depends on the GM's perspective. A most involving opinion for most player's but same goes when dealing with rules lacking exactness and accuracy of detail.
Extending my gratitude to for your time reading this, and your very helpful opinions; I'll try to point some relevant facts to why this matter of FLYING CHARGE is ultimately GM/DM adjudication and not a deliberately misconstrued "interpretation:"
Anguirel wrote:
I'll try to translate the primary point against non-land-speed charges:
There's a special ability for a single creature that appears to be an Aerial version of charge (rather than an extension or improvement on charge). If this ability is needed to charge while flying for this creature, no other creatures can charge while flying.
Stampede also finds the concept of burrowing or swimming charges to be ridiculous. I disagree...
For Burrowing Creatures: Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. This is explicitly noted in the text for the Burrow ability in 3.5 SRD (the PRD doesn't have any text for Burrow or Burrow Speeds itself, apparently). That said, as it isn't explicitly disallowed in the PRD it shoudl be allowed. If allowed, a Bulette would definitely be a candidate, and even has a charge-based improvement ability requiring a leap (which I could totally see it doing when starting the round underground to burst out of the ground and into the air, then land and attack).
For Swimming Creatures: I'd say a Shark can, would, and does frequently charge while swimming. Similarly, the Tritons explicitly use cavalry tactics, which would certainly include charging while on their aquatic mounts. Heck, that one even has Ride-By Attack as a feat, and they rarely leave the water and are explicitly noted as using dolphins as aquatic mounts. What the point even be if they couldn't charge, since that explicitly requires the use of a charge action?
Further, Flight lacks the specific verbiage restricting charges and running that is present in Burrow. The...
Totally agreeing to disagree with your logic here. Even if you may not be under a misapprehension of these rules, as it isn't explicitly disallowed in the present rules; it is a fault to the game saying that it can be done. Where in the rules can one just make conjectures such as those? Anguirel, indeed you have excellent remarks here; however, on regards of the "bullete," you are very creative about how would it be used...yet your enthusiasm its just ruling-inaccuracy, a
presumption and no offense intended, but I'll point you to consult your GM and see how that comes.
Furthermore, under strict interpretation of R.A.W. the Tritons would only have benefit of that Ride By Attack if their mounts either get a "Fly spell" (maybe even a Freedom of movement as far as I could tell) or if their mounts are actually one of the samples critters mentioned to be able to pull that trick of charging somehow there.
There are even more canditates: the charging-climbing monkey? And the SPider charging from her webbing. The Octopus charging-swimming--mostly sample of implausible situations that some rule ok, others not. Why does the octopus gets an special ability to move underwater? the explanatory text does not say it can be used...
Taenia wrote:
A few points::
(The issue I would say arises here is that you can't charge a creature above you because you have to ascent at half speed)
Taenia wrote:
At no point does charge specify land speed, only speed. Speed is defined as landspeed and any additional speeds, for example some creatures only have a fly speed, for example, according to the argument above Air Elementals can't charge, period.
Taenia wrote:
By your own logic, this doesn't work at all. Since you can't charge and fly, this ability can only work by RAW when he is charging down a 45 deg slope, since nothing in the ability mentions flying other than the name.
Taenia wrote:
Nothing in here limits Run to ground speed, they just provide examples that are limited to the ground. As shown in the monster rules, speed refers to ALL types of movement and specifically refers to landspeed as one type.
In fact they have to specify you can't Run with the fly spell because normally you can. The reference to charge is to make sure that it is clear you still can even though you can run because so many effects that prevent running also prevent charging, like Fatigue and Exhaustion.
When you have a speed you can do the following according to RAW, 5' step, run and charge unless specifically forbidden by the mechanics of the ability (no LoS for earthglide) or listed limitations (Running with the fly spell).
All this are great ways to clarify and explain the involved ruling. BUt still you are making assumptions defined and or figured out of what is not written there! If said air elemental where to charge, he would only if affected by a charge spell. According to strict interpretation, it can't even with Perfect maneuverability because of the rules redaction.
That's why some GMs may rule it possible, even if you find that speed refers to ALL types of movement, there are limitations on what a creature can do, and there are others rules that emulate a critter's functionalaty in "3d" environment, such as rules for Jumping, benefits for attacking from higher ground, melee long-reach attack, etc.
Importantly, you define the reason why "In fact" the developers explained a rule. Here and everywhere, you are making a supposition Even if there is evidence that so many effects prevent running and also prevent charging. Similarly, I would point you to consult your GameMaster to check if it possible in your game.
Samasboy1 wrote:
Samasboy1 Criticism:
Stampede, your posts are so full of misspellings and malapropisms, it is very difficult to comprehend all of your statements.
You do realize most of your examples actually support that flying creatures can charge, right?
Kongamato Wailing Dive
"When a kongamato makes a charge while flying or uses its Flyby Attack feat, the creature's body becomes infused with energy, causing its bite to deal an extra +1d6 points of sonic damage on that attack."
It doesn't allow the kongamato to charge, just that if it does so the attack deals extra sonic damage.
Mythic Griffin Power Dive
"A flying mythic griffon can move up to four times its speed when it charges. If its charge begins 40 or more feet above its target, its first attack deals double damage. It must be flying downward at an angle of 45 degrees or steeper to use this ability."
Doesn't grant the ability to make a charge, just increases how far it can move, and possibly the damage, if it does so.
Snallygaster Aerial Charge
"When a snallygaster charges downward at an angle of 45 degrees or more, its bite attack deals double damage (or triple damage on a critical hit). Bleed damage is not multiplied for this attack."
Again, doesn't say it grants the ability to charge, only that it increases the damage if it does so.
Death from Above
"Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying, you gain a +5 bonus on attack rolls in place of the bonuses from charging and being on higher ground."
Increases the bonus from charging, does not grant the ability to charge.
Not meaning to be rude here, but thanks for pointing misspellings and malapropisms to see if I can waive them in the future. Maybe it's because in my country, English is not a native language.
Now as far as your perfect references; It is clear that you enjoy creative and intelligible explanations, but still--there is no prove that you can legitimately and entirely charge with another movement type other than base speed. Of course we can't concur on fancy statements about personal or involving opinions; but the fact is there are neither rules to support this gaming-option, not rules to confirm it. And of course that even with only one supporting example that is much more likely to be in error than all the others simultaneously, you not anyone can deny that the truth of this statement(that flying-charge is not something to speculate validating). Do you really believe the folks at PAIZO presume things out of ruling's redaction? Sincere observance indicates that certain creatures can break the rules of flying. As you already know what, I must remark to advise again of the importance of checking this with your GM--to negate opportunities to be misguided by comlex ruling such as this.
EvilPaladin wrote:
EvilPaladin's mention:
Stampede wrote:
Brace yourself, long post because of the delicate importance of chargin while flying.
1) First point:
Quarantorn wrote:
Since "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your SPEED and attack during the action" Every race and monster has different kind of speed, some has fly speed, some has land speed, some has swim speed, and some has burrow speed. So every creature can make charge as a special attack.
Not meaning to be rude Quaratorn, but following rules exactly, can you please mark where in the rules can you CHARGE while swimming? Maybe you can indicate what creature could charge while simultaneously burrowing? Dude, Im not meaning to be tenacious, but you gotta be kidding with this steadfast determination of using charge at a highly convenient level...you see even with the "freedom of movement" spell, one could not charge while swimming. Perhaps you can read below a firm explanation that validates this argument.
2) Second Point:
EvilPaladin wrote:
... You can with a fly speed. Check out what running actually says:
Run wrote:
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
It says your speed. It does not say your land speed.
Evil paladin I sincerely apologize if it looks like i was attacking your posts, but I tend to get temperamental when dealing with lots of people contradicting ones point of view. I hope no offenses were implied mate, but I applaud to agree in disagreeing with you as well.
Can a creature with a flight speed, an eagle in this case, charge and get the +2 bonus on attack? Or is charge strictly land-bound?
Put simply: maybe.
Some creatures with a flight speed can charge, but an eagle can't by strict rules interpretation. About charge being strictly land-bound: not really-however, not all creatures can charge with a flying speed. Even considering that "charge" also references your speed and not your move speed.
Charging while flying isn't normally possible. why? Because of the Flying rules and how they interact in the game, not because it can be concluded from interpretation of certain abilities that give a bonus when "actually" charging while flying.
Most people is inclined to assume that abilities like those don't grant you the option to charge while flying, and instead let you always charge while flying (so that a creature with such type of "power" is just better at it). This is certainly because of these rules and how they have been written, even if not considered unclear (or obscured for convenience some would dare say).
This last reference (that it must already be possible to charge while flying) is tricky because it certainly points toward an expected assumption: most of these abilities would provide no benefit and have no need to exist if you couldn't charge while flying without them... So the argument begins anew since one can stand rigid against it strictly because sincere observance indicates that certain creatures can break the rules of flying, provided they have the adequate maneuverability or means to do it.
For simplicity's sake, others could just say it is fine--however, "Charging while flying" can be possible if the DM/GM permits it. So, yes, allowing this is clearly something that depends on the GM's perspective. A most involving opinion for most player's but same goes when dealing with rules lacking exactness and accuracy of detail, undeniable prove that there is a ambiguity here (the mentioned options).
charging while flying
DC of charging-FLY maneuver
Fly spell "contradictions"
Specific Abilities to perform Aerial Charge options
Maybe I could add that if someone is accustomed to actually doing assumptions, now matter how big or small, they´ll impose a personal interpretation in a blink...my point being Not just personally, but to support an argument in the face of criticism: as the rules don't show a restriction on charging while airborne as they do in other types, we can't JUST ASSUME that it is doable.
In the D&D/Pathfinder game It is clear the GM makes certain rules appropriate and premises a rule that is not clear. Tell me, where in the rules can one just make conjectures such as these?
There is no utter restriction, for whatever reason, but maybe because it is implausible or actually too out of the scope of the game's narrative.
It's not implausible by any means. A strix, as a level 1 character has flight. One would imagine the issue coming up as early as then, and without the use of magic. If this is truly unclear, then it should be more adequately addressed. Asserting that swimming creatures and flying creatures can charge in the medium that have a movement speed is "out of scope" is ridiculous. Players can have these abilities from level 1. How it is supposed to work may be poorly addressed, but that would be a development issue.
Both statements are assumptions. We shouldn´t speculate altogether, since this takes the topic somewhat away... how could we actually define wheter it is a development issue or an implausible adjudication: it is certainly not our topic here, not speculation on WHY exactly are the rules presented so vaguely on this regard (aerial charge). Many points of view could differ entirely here.
Claxon wrote:
Benneth Hoenheim wrote:
Just look at the errata-sidebar on the fly rules, MORE legit indications and clarifications about flying and 3d movement complications... but it looks those are too tenuous to certain conveniences, GMs can just rule out and adjudicate a creature. PLAYERS however tend to do just that --> use rule's convenient enough to certain endeavors: what would suite your involvement?
What is the legit indication that you are asserting here? If you are referring to the FAQ that is posted on d20pfsrd entry for the fly skill it doesn't provide any relevant information that would restrict a creature from flying.
(...) Also, are you attempting to imply that I'm trying to cheat by saying that flying characters can charge? I could have possibly misunderstood the rules, but I would never purposefully misuse the rules to enable something. And I don't care your accusation.
Im guessing you refer to the claim that he said about ¨what would suite your involvement?¨ Which IM sure is an specific claim for his gaming buddie quarantorn (check the involved participants) that is pulling some heavy game breaks...
Claxon wrote:
What abuses or exploits arise? And what rules have been censored or redacted? What are you even talking about?
I´ll get back to you later with detailed explanation on what loops come in to play and how this STRICT interpretation halts gamebreaking options derived from here. Specially what he is refering to.
Im sure you are trying to explain that those feats can't be used with flying AND charge; unless you manage to attain legit benefits from a FLY spell into your mount that is (please elaborate if that's not the case).
NO need to elaborate, that's it.
Claxon wrote:
I'm having a hard time reading your posts Stampede. I'm not sure why exactly, but I read through it and it just seems jumbled to me.
I sincerely apologize if it is somewhat disarranged, it doesn't lack involvement not it shows imprecise information.
Claxon wrote:
Aside from that, what I've gotten from your posts is that you keep asserting that the fly skill says in some way that you can't charge...but it doesn't, so far as I can tell. Please point out where it indicates this.
As there is no ruling indicating one's character COULD charge while airborne, we can only point to what CAN be done--maybe you could declaim over this continuously, but I sincerely recommend AGAINST taking advantage or rules that are written in a way that is uncertain, indefinite, or unclear; such as the Rules of FLYING with charge (that are by the way, limited to the abilities I just pointed on previous posts, which concurs with this table)
Claxon wrote:
I hold, that so long as you have the appropriate movement type you can charge through that medium. So if you have a fly speed you can charge through the air. If you have a swim speed you can charge through water, and if you have a burrow speed you could charge through the earth. However, charging requires you have line of sight to your opponent so you need to be able to see what your charging, which means charging through the ground requires extra abilities to make happen.
I'm not meaning to be annoying (but, as I pointed to Quarantorm) if we follow rules exactly,I mean legitimately: Can you please mark where in the rules can you CHARGE while swimming? or Maybe you can indicate what creature could charge while simultaneously burrowing?
Thanks for your time reading this and your very helpful opinion.
Brace yourself, long post because of the delicate importance of chargin while flying.
1) First point:
Quarantorn wrote:
Since "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your SPEED and attack during the action" Every race and monster has different kind of speed, some has fly speed, some has land speed, some has swim speed, and some has burrow speed. So every creature can make charge as a special attack.
Not meaning to be rude Quaratorn, but following rules exactly, can you please mark where in the rules can you CHARGE while swimming? Maybe you can indicate what creature could charge while simultaneously burrowing? Dude, Im not meaning to be tenacious, but you gotta be kidding with this steadfast determination of using charge at a highly convenient level...you see even with the "freedom of movement" spell, one could not charge while swimming. Perhaps you can read below a firm explanation that validates this argument.
2) Second Point:
EvilPaladin wrote:
... You can with a fly speed. Check out what running actually says:
Run wrote:
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
It says your speed. It does not say your land speed.
You are evil, evilpaladin; this comes essentially clear with running, the RUN option is obviously intended to use with regular movement. A player character normally has a walking speed--for this reason, the explanatory text does not say it can be used with Flying speed. The game wouldn't allow you to fly by regular means, you would need Good maneuverability derived from the the Fly spell
Fly Spell wrote:
(...) Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, (...)
Now again, if a GM is needing to charge with any of his encounters; such GM would use creatures with proper abilities for charging and flying simultaneously, as understood by strict rules interpretation. For example Power Dive an Extraordinary ability of the Mythic Griffon.
3) Third Point: I don't mean to be offensive but, it appears there are benefits to this interpretation and the rule's exploits it permits.
EvilPaladin wrote:
The Fly Skill references nothing of Charging or Running, which does not mean you cannot charge or run, but that there is no special rule to doing so.
Can this assumption be more convenient! There is no special rule to do so, so there is a ambiguity here. EvPal, please be more sincere when trying to clarify something...Im showing you clear text indicating my point, and you are just not being stringent.
EvilPaladin wrote:
Snallygaster's Arial Charge doesn't say that it can make a charge attack while flying, it augments the effect of a charge attack while flying, which actually supports the argument that you can, or that it can't use Arial Charge, as it says when a snallygaster charges, not that they can.
Arial Charge wrote:
When a snallygaster charges downward at an angle of 45 degrees or more, (...)
It is very uncompromising to differ from the fact that this creature has an unique ability that permits it to actually make a charge attack while flying; adamant players are recognized by this attitude of convenient interpretation when miscalculating and stating how rules interact on this matter. Sincere observance indicates that the snallygaster can break the rules of flying, you are just being harsh, and since we could start looking for what the language implication of "when" and its context--dude and argument can be started in two directions forever...
4 Fourth Point:
EvilPaladin wrote:
Charge also references your speed and not your move speed.
This is clear as water, and there is no ambiguity to enhance...as I mentioned before the explanatory text does not say it can be used with Flying speed since the game wouldn't allow you to fly by regular means. Yet if you want to house rule it, go ahead there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing to be ashamed of when using house rules, it is relentless.
5 Fifth Point:
EvilPaladin wrote:
Also, can you site dive rules? Because neither the PRD nor the SRD have something that says that you can perform a dive for double damage, from what I can find.
living up to such exacting standards, I might have not gotten enough time to check that exactly on my previous post, it seems it required some edit sincerely...anyway...
If resolute on finding options to pull out this charging option, you may want to check the following ruling:
And finally, just to make a scern point, I present to you a third party product (that is unofficial, but mainly a "home-brew" or house-ruled option to benefit from this very charging incognito) Diving Charge (Combat) Optional Feat aka Variant .
I'm sure some of you will find negligible statements to stern a morbid validation, or convenient interpretation on those last references, so I point you the following:
Aerial Charge (Ex) wrote:
When airborne, a derhii can dive at twice its normal flying speed. This is the equivalent of a charge, granting a +2 bonus on the attack roll and a -2 penalty to AC.
Conclusively, even if the CHARGE action per-SE shows no limitation--or restriction on whether it can be used according to one´s speed type, unless your character actually has flying maneuverability strictly granted by the FLY spell; performing an "Aerial Charge" is a violation of the flying rules as presented in the official pathfinder game.
I beg of you, please make conscience, as severe as this may be; don't just assume a ruling exploit out of "gray" or "ambiguously" written text--make ACUTE clarifications when dealing with rules lacking exactness and accuracy of expression or detail. If you don't have an actual prove to demonstrate your point, please escalate to Paizo Customer Service for one, instead of remarking mischievous assumptions that benefit power-gamers of campaign-breaking scope (no offense intended).
Yes, they can charge. They can also run, withdraw, and 5 ft step, etc...
What are you talking about here, HOuse RUles?
By estrict rules interpretation, a creature cannot RUN with the FLying Skill, nor can it run with the FLY spell by RAW. What I mean, is that this a normal assumption situation, that usually arises with the complex uasage of 3-d positioning anf of course FLY-oriented ruling.
According to R.A.W., a creature with with the FLY spell cannot run, and this extricly violates d20 ruling and makes your answer seriously invalid StreamoftheSky...even if you mean this could be accomplished soehow, you are being blinded by the Flying rules interpretation, and FAQ/errata clarifications as per today SRD flying rules 2014 & here too: PAIZO´s flying rules 2014
Quatar wrote:
Can a creature with a flight speed, an eagle in this case, charge and get the +2 bonus on attack?
Or is charge strictly land-bound?
Let me put it top you this way Quatar: What would be the DC, for the Flying creature´s Maneuver, when charging? Quick answer, none, because ¨CHARGING¨ violates the rules of Pathfinder two-dimensional movement. Look at Sidebar
There are few example abilities that actually supersede this ruling, call then exceptions if you will, and some should be mentioned here--not limited to the folowing:
- Fly Spell, it indicates a creatre extricly affected by this spell may charge, but not run FLy spell
For clarification, Note that comming to a full stop is also impossible for most manuaverability classes of flight in D&D without stalling out. Just look at what you could do with proper usage of the flying skill here quick flying rules
Conclusevely, even if the CHARGE action per-se shows no limitation -or restriction on wheter it can be used according to one´s speed, unless your character actually has PERFECT maneurability (granted by the FLY spell), it is a violation of the rules, allowing a Flyng creature to CHarge on this manner.
Please note that such estrict interprertation, actually limits game mechanics that benefit from Charging (if not used by a creature affected by the FLy spell), such as (but not limited to) the following:
Similarly, there are abilities that would permit similar movement, wihout vilating these ruling, such as (but not limited to) the following:
- Dive: It is essentially a charge action (with the +2 to hit and -2 AC) that inflicts double damage with a claw attack. dive is an action that flying creatures can take, detailed in the MM, a SU or Ex depending on the creature.
- Flyby attack: It is a feat that allows a flying creature to make a partial action at any time during its move (rather than only before or after moving).
- Death from Above(Combat Feat) You allow gravity to add extra force to your charges. Benefit: Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying, you gain a +5 bonus on attack rolls in place of the bonuses from charging and being on higher ground.
- Mythic Death from Above: This is hardcore as hell. If you hit at all, you get a free action trip attempt, and if you score a critical hit, the crit modifier of your weapon in increased by 2.
You can entertain some powerplay if...Say you can have the creature hit there..just combine Punishing Kick and Vicious Stomp for the same flavor effect. You dropkick someone into the ground, then then stomp on them as they're prone. Or similarly use Shield Slam, instead.
