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Hi Everyone!
My buddy is launching a new PF campaign tonight and I wanted to play a standard, long sword and shield type of fighter. I'm kind of old school and am a little overwhelmed at the feats/skill choices...not really sure where to start.
Basically, I want to create a Human fighter. I've seen posts about using the Ranger/Guide variant to make a sword & board guy but in all honesty...I don't understand how the two-weapon/shield mastery chain works...pros and cons. I just want to swing a sword and block/bash with my shield.
We're starting at level 1...can someone help me build out the right feats/skills so that he can progress decently?
Thanks,
Jack
As you've probably seen, longsword and shield doesn't work very well in pathfinder. Dual wielding shields, or even 2-handing a shield, tends to be the better way to use a shield. If you really want to use a weapon and shield, main hand a heavy shield and off hand a light weapon from the close weapon group.
Of course, using a longsword and shield works, though you'll be using a light shield (or taking an additional -2 on attacks), and your weapon training in shields will be a step behind. If you're using a shield you want the feat Shield Master and every feat needed to get it. It makes gearing your character not a total pain.
EDIT: If you only want the shield to hang on your arm and give an AC bonus, good news! There's no feat investment! Your damage will be lacking to say the least, but using a shield without dual-wielding does that. Get shield focus, greater shield focus, missile shield, ray shield, saving shield, etc. to make your defensive role better. Also consider the brawler archetype.
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Hi Nicos...I was thinking more of the classic swing and defend.The only stat-requirements here are 13 strength for power attack, and 13 dex for combat reflexes. A reasonable 20-point buy would be:
16/14/14/13/11/7 or 16/14/14/10/10/10
A reasonable 15-point buy would be:
15/14/14/10/10/8Let me know if any of that's unclear/uncertain, or if you're not sure why I chose particular feats.
-Cross
(SNIPPED)
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting requires a 19 dex. Improved requires 17. Regular TWF requires 15.
Spiked destroyer feat + Shield Slam + Armor Spikes = awesome
I'd suggest a fighter, or an urban barbarian, and even ranger seems to fit nicely here. Mainhand a heavy shield and offhand either a high crit close weapon (for fighters) or a kukri (light higher threat weapon) so you can take advantage of the free shield bash on a critical hit from later in the shield feat chain.
I would say anything more than ITWF is overkill, unless you have a ton of build points and feats laying around.
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Whoa, I @#$%ing suck. MOMENT.
15-point buy:
15(+2)/15/14/10/10/7Take Imp TWF whenever you can afford a +2 belt of physical prowess (10k).
Take Greater TWF whenever you can afford a +4 belt of physical prowess.Fighter Armor Training will let you use that dex to get a pretty spectacular AC, even in full plate.
-Cross (Sorry for crappy stats in earlier post!)
Nice save.
As Cross pointed out, with armor training you can really take advantage of that high dex. Needing the dex for TWF is normally a problem for most fighters, but since you're focusing on defence anyway, it's not a problem. And since you want high AC, and will therefore have high dex, there's little reason not to TWF. Basically it's a nice little bundled set that works very well together.
Nicos suggested Iron WIll and the human fighter favored class bonus, and I second those.
I'm personally a fan of the Brawler archetype Cestus+Shield fighter.
There is the Shielded Fighter Archetype that you could use:
shielded fighter, but I don't know if it is worth it, probably not.
A Vanilla fighter gets Armour Training and Weapon Training, two very good abilities
Generally, If you want to attack with the shield and your main weapon, you have to invest in a lot of feats and need high Dexterity.
I'd rather opt against it, take all save-feats you can get, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, maybe Lightning Reflexes and concentrate on your main weapon: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, improved critical, critical Focus.
Almost every fighter type needs Power Attack of course
Another option would be to leave behind the shield and go the crane style route at level 5.
I'm personally a fan of the Brawler archetype Cestus+Shield fighter.
I'm a fan of the mobile fighter since it gives a better-than-pounce alternative. It keeps your character very relevant after level 10. Also with a focus on bull rush (off of shield slam) you will guarantee yourself some movement in the round if you want it.
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I am a fan of the old school sword and board as well.
PFS 20 pt buy was 17/16/14/12/10/7 with the first pt in STR and the following 2 in DEX.
Feats:
1- Weapon Focus, Power attack, Imp Init
2- Dodge
3- Shield Focus
4- Weapon Specialization
5- Furious Focus
6- Vital Strike
7- Step up
8- Imp Crit
9- Greater Shield Focus
10- Critical Focus
11- Improved Vital Strike
12- Greater Weapon Specialization
This is a balanced build, leaving you semi-mobile with focus on taking a single attack without the penalty from power attack and still gives you additional damage through Vital strike. It also lets you act early in combat and gives decent bonus' to AC.
The point buy also lets you take full advantage of your DEX bonus while wearing Mithral Full Plate and a Heavy Mithral Shield with no Armor Check Penalty.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ok, so my suggestion here is not very min/maxed, but I just got done running a sword/board guy all the way through Carrion Crown. He was reasonably tankish, did not attack with his shield (sorry, I find that mental image a little doofy for my tastes), and still did respectable damage (roughly +34/1d8+30 power attacking at 15th level).
I used the weapon master archetype from the APG. This is not, by any means, an optimized build.
Human Fighter (weapon master, 15 point buy)
S 18
D 12
C 12
I 13
W 8
CH10
1: weapon focus, power attack, dazzling display
2: combat expertise
3: iron will
4: weapon specialization
5: step up
6: improved maneuver feat of your choice
7: vital strike
8: greater weapon focus; retrain maneuver feat for improved critical
9: critical focus
10: shatter defenses
11: deadly stroke
12: penetrating strike or greater specialization
13: the other choice from 12
This guy was fun to play and had the "feel" of a 1e fighter. Even without being super streamlined he could dish out the hurt to a tune of 100+ damage on a full attack. The low Wisdom is a downside, it was the price I paid for the 18 under 15 point buy.
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i thinkfurious focus only work with two handed weapons.I am a fan of the old school sword and board as well.
PFS 20 pt buy was 17/16/14/12/10/7 with the first pt in STR and the following 2 in DEX.
Feats:
1- Weapon Focus, Power attack, Imp Init
2- Dodge
3- Shield Focus
4- Weapon Specialization
5- Furious Focus
6- Vital Strike
7- Step up
8- Imp Crit
9- Greater Shield Focus
10- Critical Focus
11- Improved Vital Strike
12- Greater Weapon SpecializationThis is a balanced build, leaving you semi-mobile with focus on taking a single attack without the penalty from power attack and still gives you additional damage through Vital strike. It also lets you act early in combat and gives decent bonus' to AC.
The point buy also lets you take full advantage of your DEX bonus while wearing Mithral Full Plate and a Heavy Mithral Shield with no Armor Check Penalty.
To your point, it is also for using a one handed weapon, 2 handed. I found it useful when AC wasnt an issue and needed to unload on a mob. Drop shield, Power attack/Vital Strike w/o penalty.
I'm personally a fan of the Brawler archetype Cestus+Shield fighter.I'm a fan of the mobile fighter since it gives a better-than-pounce alternative. It keeps your character very relevant after level 10. Also with a focus on bull rush (off of shield slam) you will guarantee yourself some movement in the round if you want it.
The reason I like the Brawler is that the class abilities allow for threat stopping with the AoO movement ceasing as well as the attack penalty giving your allies virtual AC, and the cestus and shield share the same weapon group, which Brawler gives bonus damage to. It's about the closest way to be an actual tank in PF, which is why I like it. I agree Mobile Fighter is another good archetype for the build, however.
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The reason I like the Brawler is that the class abilities allow for threat stopping with the AoO movement ceasing as well as the attack penalty giving your allies virtual AC, and the cestus and shield share the same weapon group, which Brawler gives bonus damage to. It's about the closest way to be an actual tank in PF, which is why I like it. I agree Mobile Fighter is another good archetype for the build, however.I'm personally a fan of the Brawler archetype Cestus+Shield fighter.I'm a fan of the mobile fighter since it gives a better-than-pounce alternative. It keeps your character very relevant after level 10. Also with a focus on bull rush (off of shield slam) you will guarantee yourself some movement in the round if you want it.
I'm really interested in why you chose a cestus instead of armor spikes (leaving a free hand or allowing 2-hand shield bashes) or another shield (with obvious benefits from shield master, shield slam, and bashing finish). Is it for the crit range?
Yes, kindly remember that a longsword can be swung with two hands when AC is not an issue. It's one of the great options for a sword and boarder.
Taking TWF and SHield bash lets him have the option of unloading an extra hit on a full attack, too. The free bull rush is great, and if you get Shield Master, you don't need to weapon enchant the shield.
Note that if you are going to bash with a shield, a spiked Shield of Bashing does d8 dmg 20/x2, while a large shield does 2-12.
I agree that extra TWF'ing is probably not an investment he wants to take.
Your ideal weapon is actually probably a short sword, upgrade to a bastard sword with the 'wield as short sword' ability of a sun sword, and upgrade to a sun sword as you level. But, straight longsword will work fine.
==Aelryinth
RAW, they do. Until there's an official ruling that they don't, an attck with Shield Spikes is still a bashing attack, and all such rules stack. SPikes change damage and damage type, not the fact it's a bash.
JJ's post is a personal opinion, not a rule. He even writes it up knowing it stacks, and how good it is. It was explicitly allowed in 3.5, and the rules for spikes and Bashing have not changed since then.
==Aelryinth
If you go 15 pt buy take Human Dual Talented.
Str 16(+2)
Dex 17(+2) Raise to 18 at 8th and 19 at 12th
Con 13 Raise to 14 at 4th
Int 10
Wis 12
Chr 8
You could go with 10 Wis and boost you Str to 17 too. I prefer a bit of wisdom myself though.
Take the Two Weapon Fighter Archetype. At 9th you can attack with both your shield and sword as standard action. At 11th you get Shield Master so make your shield your primary weapon and treat you one handed weapon as light. So you can have longsword and heavy Shield with -0/-1 to hit.
Choose which weapon you want to focus on. You need to be light on you off hand so that can be either a light Spiked shield or light weapon. I prefer focusing on my shield as it provides 1 better AC and the average dame is the same either way. For Weapon it's (1D8/1D4 avg 7) or Shield is (1D6/1D6 avg 7).
Feats
1) Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon fighting
2) Double Slice
3) Weapon Focus Shield
4) Weapon Specialize shield
5) Power Attack
6) Shield slam
7) Improve Two Weapon fighting
8) Greater Weapon Focus
9) Shield Focus
10) Iron Will
11) Shield master (Switch to One Handed Weapon here)
12) Greater Two Weapon fighting
With this build at level 1 assuming Heavy Shield Focused you will be +2/+2 (1D8+3/1D4+1) and an AC 19 (Chain Shirt 4, Dex 3, Shield 2)
I'm really interested in why you chose a cestus instead of armor spikes (leaving a free hand or allowing 2-hand shield bashes) or another shield (with obvious benefits from shield master, shield slam, and bashing finish). Is it for the crit range?The reason I like the Brawler is that the class abilities allow for threat stopping with the AoO movement ceasing as well as the attack penalty giving your allies virtual AC, and the cestus and shield share the same weapon group, which Brawler gives bonus damage to. It's about the closest way to be an actual tank in PF, which is why I like it. I agree Mobile Fighter is another good archetype for the build, however.I'm personally a fan of the Brawler archetype Cestus+Shield fighter.I'm a fan of the mobile fighter since it gives a better-than-pounce alternative. It keeps your character very relevant after level 10. Also with a focus on bull rush (off of shield slam) you will guarantee yourself some movement in the round if you want it.
Basically yes, it's for the crit range and the fact that the people I play with (myself included) can't get around the silly factor for using 2 shields, and while I know RAW you can two hand a large shield, I can't quite wrap my head around that either, so I voluntarily chose to gimp the character a tad to fit a flavor I found a little more serious.
CA's great. His shield is definitely a minor artifact though. ;-)
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I'm a big fan of dual shields. Ever since the days when I played a tank paladin on WoW I would think, "my shield does all of my cool abilities and damage, why can't I ditch this good-for-nothing sword and get another?" I was really excited when a brawler cohort I made for a Kingmaker game got shield master and I took a second look after leveling to think, "why SHOULDN'T I dual-wield heavy shields?" I decided each was shaped as a semicircle, so that if they were held together they made one large circle. Was probably the most fun I had playing a martial character, and it was a cohort. Mixed with the step-up line it was a high damage turtle you couldn't get away from.
I also prefer Ranger as a Sword/Shield dude for the explicit reason that you need not suffer for feat prerequisites. At 6th level, you get to take a feat that you wouldn't normally be able to take until 11th.
Feat Progression. (Human)
1: Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex Prereq)
2: Shield Slam (Bonus, normally not available until 6th)
3: Power Attack (offense) or Shield Focus (defense)
4: (Get an animal friend! Get spells!)
5: Either of the two you didn't take at 3, or Iron Will if you like
6: Shield Master
And with Shield Master, you get to do silly things. Like hit all the time and bull rush all the time and still poke with your sword or other weapon of choice. What's really choice about it is you get to add its enhancement bonus to your attack and damage rolls. This really improves your shield's efficiency as both a weapon and a thing-keeping-you-alive. If you take off the penalties for Power Attack and TWF and add in the enhancement bonus, you'll be looking at effectively a +6 to hit with an off-hand weapon and a +2 enhancement to damage rolls pending your wealth expenditure. AND a bull rush/knock down ability.
Now with this mock-up, I chose to pay for the Dexterity prerequisite, rather than the Shield Slam BAB 6 prereq. If you are starting at a later level, you can move these things around. Otherwise I'd prefer to get the impressive things early.
It's probably too late for tonight, but here's what I would do:
20 pt build str 18, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 12, cha 8
feats: Dodge, Power attack, Improved Initiatve
weapons carried: Longsword, Lucerne Hammer, sling
armor: either scale mail or chain shirt, heavy shield.
At first level, two handed weapons are overkill. A longsword with a strength of 18 does 1d8+4, so anything with fewer than 6 hp is going to be autokilled anway, and even a 10 hp creature will die 50% of the time. So carry the shield for most battles (giving you an AC of 19 or 20, depending on whether you want to move 30' or not). If it is either something nasty or you don't mind giving up the ac, switch out to the polearm, and do 1d12+6 with reach. For ranged combat, use the sling to do 1d4+4, more damage than a longbow at this level.
By second level, you'll have a better grasp of the game (and what you want your character to do), and at that time choose your weapon focus.
For skills, just go climb, swim and perception (not a class skill, but still important) and favorite bonus into hit points.