What would you recommend to get started? Every build I'm used to has been either dex or strength based.
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That is because dex and str determined your "to hit" bonus. If you are asking about making a fighter that is better than average with skills then I would suggest the lore warden archetype, but I would still not make intelligence my top stat. If so most other classes are still kicking you butt with regard to skills, and you are also doing less damage. In short there is no reason, mechanically speaking, to use a fighter as a skills guy.
I think you're going to have to expand on what you mean by "int based fighter" in this case. When people talk about a "strength-based magus" or a "dex-based magus" they're referencing a character build that will be pumping resourches into strength or dexterity as much as possible, to take advantage of class abilities, feats, etc.
But as far as I know, pumping int over strength or dex for a fighter is simply unworkable. Basically you're shooting yourself in the foot. The class does not have features that benefit from int in any way.
Now you can have a fighter with a decent int. But int-based?
What exactly are you thinking of?
What do you want from Intelligence? Do you just want skills? Do you want tactics? Do you want someone who thinks things through? A combination of them? They are all easy to do but if you want to also be good at combat it can be harder. Fighters can do only so much.
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I've got a fighter at 6th level with Int 18 (Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12) myself. The biggest key is to focus on a weapon group. For example my fighter likes axes. She uses a combination of melee and range in combat, attacking with thrown axes first, taking advantage of feats like point blank shot to land range hits, and then opening volley as she closes into melee. She likes to switch between ranged and melee with each passing turn.
It's good to have a set strategy, while still being very variable when you need to be. Be sure to carry backup weapons, different types of weapons, weapons of different materials, and of course a mix of range and melee.
There's also the Student of War prestige class, which is actually really great for smart fighters.
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Be a Warblade from 3E Tome of Battle. Adds Int to reflex saves, critical confirmation, damage to flatfooted and flanked foes, and as a bonus on combat maneuver rolls as he gains levels. And you get awesome special attacks, too.
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There are really only two incentives to an Int-based Fighter.
One is to roleplay as a highly intelligent soldier, a la Roy Greenhilt. I imagine there would be much quoting of Sun Tzu, mentions of Fighter's College, and the occasional long-winded dissertation of the advantages of glaives over halberds. For this, I recommend Craft Arms and Armor-- your extra skill points will serve you well, you'll save some gold, and it lets you tell your GM all about the tensile and compressive strength of chain link.
The second is to move into the Duelist prestige class. If this appeals to you, then the prereqs for the Duelist should give you an idea of where you want to go with this. You'll want Dex as your second stat, of just about equal importance to your Int. You'll probably also want to use a rapier or light pick as your weapon of choice-- possibly a scimitar so you can go the Dervish Dance route.
There's also I believe a feat in the Point-Blank Shot tree that lets you add your Int bonus to damage rolls with bows, which might be a good idea if you plan to be Dex/Int heavy, but it's not enough of an incentive to build an Int-based fighter.
You can't base yourself off of Int and be a successful fighter. You've gotta pick either Str or Dex and then worry about Int. Also, rolling for stats is the best way to do this fighter, since point-buy makes them as MAD as a Monk.
For example, I've got a lvl 9 Human Lore Warden with a 22(modified) Str and a 16 Int. He's a seafarer/pirate so skills are very important. Human + LW + 16 Int + Favored Class nets me 9 skill ranks a level, two of which have to be Int-based skills. I can still contribute to the overall party with my high strength, but I don't have to lose effectiveness by dipping some other class that I didn't want to play (Rogue/Bard/etc) just to flesh out my skill list.
One crazy possibility you could try, do a fighter who dips Witch with the White-Haired Witch archetype. That way you could get an attack that uses your intelligence. Not to mention the joy of playing a fighter with Weapon Specialization (hair).
All about Millia Rage up in here.
Without something, anything, that lets you add your Intelligence bonus to your Attack Bonus, you're gimped.
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As a note to the OP: Words like "unworkable", and "you can't" have popped up in this thread. I'd ignore those, as they likely weren't thought through too well (or at all) beyond a question of "is it optimized?".
While not the most optimized, an Int-based fighter is certainly doable.
...Also this:
There are really only two incentives to an Int-based Fighter.
One is to roleplay as a highly intelligent soldier, a la Roy Greenhilt. I imagine there would be much quoting of Sun Tzu, mentions of Fighter's College, and the occasional long-winded dissertation of the advantages of glaives over halberds...
Regardless of what you choose to do with your Int fighter mechanically, this is a really fun way to play him/her. Seriously.
Unworkable is a good term for this...except the whole witch/hair thing. You NEED to be able to hit and do damage, that is a fighters job in the party, along with having good hit points and not being hit in the first place.
My gaming group once had a player bring a very under optimized character to the table, we role played through the introduction and it was basically the scene from Mystery Men, where they are interviewing potential members for the team.
A group of heroes does not want a fighter with a 12 strength dragging them down.
So yeah first be able to do your job, that doesn't mean your character should be a contender for the DPR olympics, but they should well....be a fighter. Second, take skills, traits, and background stuff to make him a fun character to roleplay.
Oh and if it skills you are after, human is great. The bonus feat can go to skill focus (get plenty as a fighter so no big deal to use one here), get extra skill point, and take favored class for extra skill point too, (again take toughness to make up for this, get tons of feats).
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If you want to retain effectiveness while benefiting from high Intelligence, check the Peltast (thrown weapons-based fighter) we wrote for The Secrets of Tactical Archetypes II. It makes great use of Int (finding weaknesses, perforating DR, determining the amount of maneuvers he may perform at range...), for a cool and effective skirmish character that can both heavily debuff and deal damage when needed.
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hmmm... if you went fighter duelist you could add your int to AC, and damage. i think of this type of character as wesley (dread pirate roberts) from princess bride. a very charasmatic intelligent fighter who uses a rapier and is very effective at being a skill monkey.
with this character i would play a human fighter, weapon master or tactician archetype. once you hit 7th level go to duelist. depending on how effective you want him to be in combat you can take feats like crane style and be very defensive, or take a more control based character by stacking your hit, and focusing on maneuvers (disarm, trip, grapple) i havent played this character in pathfinder but in 3.5 i had a very similar character who kicked BUTT.
besides wesley is the coolest hero ever
Here is a rough mock up of an int based fighter there are possibly better choices but it seems a solid start
Human Fighter
Str 10 Dex 14 con 12 int 18 wis 14 cha 08
Feats
Lvl 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Focus Shot +4 to hit 1d10 +5 damage with heavy xbow in 30 feet
Lvl 2 Exotic Weapon Heavy Repeating Xbow +5 to hit 1d10 +5
Lvl 3 Weapon Focus HRX +7 to hit
Lvl 4 Weapon Spec HRX +8 to hit +7 damage
Lvl 5 Point Blank Master Weapon Training Xbows +10 to hit +8 damage
Lvl 6 Vital Strike +11 to hit 2d10+8 damage
Lvl 7 Deadly Aim +10 to hit 2d10+12 damage
:)
LOL, funny movie.
"And that, children, is why the keen weapon property and critical threat feats no longer stack!"
:)
LOL, funny movie.
"And that, children, is why the keen weapon property and critical threat feats no longer stack!"
Unless you houserule it. :)
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Unworkable is a good term for this...except the whole witch/hair thing. You NEED to be able to hit and do damage, that is a fighters job in the party, along with having good hit points and not being hit in the first place.
My gaming group once had a player bring a very under optimized character to the table, we role played through the introduction and it was basically the scene from Mystery Men, where they are interviewing potential members for the team.
A group of heroes does not want a fighter with a 12 strength dragging them down.
So yeah first be able to do your job, that doesn't mean your character should be a contender for the DPR olympics, but they should well....be a fighter. Second, take skills, traits, and background stuff to make him a fun character to roleplay.
Oh and if it skills you are after, human is great. The bonus feat can go to skill focus (get plenty as a fighter so no big deal to use one here), get extra skill point, and take favored class for extra skill point too, (again take toughness to make up for this, get tons of feats).
The fighter's "job" as with any class, or class combination, is to be fun for its player. If you're incapable of having fun without being optimal at killing things, then yes the Int fighter is "unworkable". I'd like to think most players aren't quite so simple-minded though.
And groups vary. Many put stats first, but just as many others put roleplay and backstory first. Don't assume that what won't work for the former group also won't work for the latter group.
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It's hard to suggest much with so little information, but, assuming only PFRPG (and not campaign setting) materials are available, I'd try a Tactician or maybe a Cad (going for sort of an unusual fighter-skillmonkey). Prestiging into Duelist as noted is also a good/fun option. Since presumably your Int will be well higher than 13 you can do stuff with the Combert Expertise tree of combat maneuvers.
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I don't have time to publish the build right now but I have an INT based fighter for shattered star that was built from a PFS build. Half level ranks in all INT skills and at least one rank in every other skill (except the three that aren't class skills). That Combined with serious combat capabilities.
This build is entirely possible.
What would you recommend to get started?A Wizard
Honestly, can you imagine a thread called "STR-based wizard build" ?
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Just to give my own example of what I did when making an intelligent fighter.
Race was Human, and went Lore Warden. Even with only a 13 to 14 Intelligence you should have 7-8 skill ranks. 2 from the base fighter, 2 from Lore Warden, 1 from Human bonus skill ranks, 1 from favored class bonus, and then 1 or 2 from intelligence.
Add on feats like Fast Learner, Improvisation, and Improved Improvisation for a +4 bonus on all untrained skill checks, and your character should be well on its way to being a viable skill monkey.
As far as ability scores they would probably look something like this.
STR: 15(+2 Racial bonus)=17
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS: 14
CHA: 8
(So, under this assumption you would have 7 skill ranks per level.)
So you have high skill points, reasonable AC and HP, and a decent strength score and more than enough feats to work in a trip build with a reach weapon to go along with Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Critical Focus.
AND, on top of all that (assuming my math is correct) you should have enough to slip in one more feat of your choice before level 12.
Also, if this is for PFS, then I suggest grabbing Traits that allow you to add Acrobatics and Perception in as class skills, but that is only for Pathfinder Society or if traits are allowed in your home game.
that would be a very interenting thread.What would you recommend to get started?A Wizard
Honestly, can you imagine a thread called "STR-based wizard build" ?
I've seen wizards played where Int was first, Str was second highest. It's a good start to a gish type. It may not be optimal, but it can be fun.
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I've seen wizards played where Int was first, Str was second highest. It's a good start to a gish type. It may not be optimal, but it can be fun.that would be a very interenting thread.What would you recommend to get started?A Wizard
Honestly, can you imagine a thread called "STR-based wizard build" ?
Here's the best I've come up with:
Half-elf Fighter (Lore Warden) 10/Witch (White-haired/Bonded) 4/Magus (Kapenia Dancer/Hexcrafter) 6.
Starting stats: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 10 Cha 8
Favored classes are Magus and Fighter, pick HP at most levels but during 4 Magus levels you should take the +1/4 arcane point.
You start with a level of Fighter to get max HP at first level, gives you two feats, pick Weapon Finesse and Improved Unarmed Strike.
Levels 2 and 3 are Witch to get the white hair with grapple and constrict. Choose Improved Grapple as your 3rd-level feat.
Levels 4-7 are Magus, you'll start wielding a bladed scarf, this gives you Canny Defense (+Magus level to Dex bonus to AC), Weapon Focus (bladed scarf), an Arcane Pool with 5 points per day, Spell Combat so that you can cast buffs on yourself during full attacks, and you pick Arcane Accuracy as your first Magus Arcana to add Int to attack bonus as a swift action.
Your Hex Arcana will be Prehensile Hair to give you another attack that uses Int in place of Strength. Feats during those levels are Defensive Combat Training and Pirahna Strike.
So far, at level 7, you can either attack once with your white hair attack, +16 to hit and 1d4 + 8 damage (using Pirahna Strike and Arcane Accuracy) or make a full attack (while casting a spell) with the bladed scarf and both hair attacks at +13/+11/+11 (again, using Pirahna Strike for some extra damage and Arcane Accuracy to hit). Anytime you hit with your white hair and you haven't yet used your swift action for the round, you can attempt a grapple with it.
Levels 8 and 9 are back to Witch to get your white hair attack to have 10ft reach. Then you finally go back to Fighter for a few more levels to pick up Expertise, a Bonus Feat, and Maneuver Mastery. Add two more levels of Magus to get your Canny Defense up to +6, then go Fighter for the rest of your levels.
Other feats to put in these later levels: Improved and Greater Trip, Weapon Specialization (bladed scarf), Fury's Fall, a magus arcana used for Hex(Flight), and use your weapon training bonuses on natural attacks for your hair and flails for the bladed scarf.
You can never wear armor, but you can cast Mage Armor and Shield on yourself, and those will both stack with your Dex and Int bonuses to AC. Shield is even a Magus spell, so you can cast it while you're full-attacking. Any time you don't get a full attack, you'll probably want to use your white hair attack since it's primary and uses Int for both attack and damage.
Important items to buy: belt of Dex +2/4, headband of Int +whateveryoucanafford, Amulet of Mighty Fists +whateveryoucanafford, upgrades to your bladed scarf, Ring of Arcane Mastery.
What do you guys think? It's extremely complicated, but I think it would be viable.
I just go dawnflower dervish into duelist. WAY less complicated.
I would keep your charisma low and buff it to cast later... maybe a 12.
Dexterity and int primary, 16 in both if you can, dump wisdom I guess... not ideal but dumping strength is a pain when you first start out.
assuming a 20 point build
str 10
dex 16
con 14
int 15
wis 7
cha 12
choose a race that suits you and hopefully has some synergy. Muse touched aasimar have good bonuses for this, and if you give them the scion of humanity trait you can give them the fast learner feat for health and enhanced inspire courage. That should work out to 12th level inspire courage at level eight which will qualify you for +6. Thats pretty solid.
Some places to start:
Look at the Combat Expertise branch of the feat tree (Int 13 required*) and see if that gives you any ideas. Based on a (very) quick review, it looks like most of the Combat Expertise tree are defensive feats, so you would still be starved for offense.
Kirin Style gives you combat bonuses based on knowledge checks and Int modifier, so that's definitely something to check out. (A monk Style master gets to pick style feats starting from first level--that would be where I'd start.)
Focused shot adds your Int bonus to damage from ranged weapons.
If I read this right, alchemists add their Int bonus to damage to all splash weapons, not just their bombs? "All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with Throw Splash Weapon, including the splash damage if any." I'm not sure how far you can go with that...
Oh--if you're looking for knowledge skills, consider the Breadth of Experience feat. You have to be an elf, gnome, or dwarf and at least 100 years old, but it lets you have all knowledge skills as class skills AND make knowledge checks untrained. (Similar to Lore Warden, with the addition of untrained checks. I wouldn't take both of these together.)
*Interesting side note: I don't see any feats that require over a 13 Int or a 13 Cha--and that's all feats, not just combat. All the other ability stats have a 13-15-17-19 feat progression. (I don't have all the sources with me, so I might be missing something.)
Witch dip, take the Prehensile Hair Hex, and use Int for to hit and damage.
Go Lore Warden, and utilize the hair as your main weapon.
White Haired Witch is a bit better, since they get their hair as a primary natural weapon, while the Prehensile Hair hex is a secondary natural weapon.
So, here's a rough idea of how I'd build it:
Race: Human
Ability Score: (20 Point Buy)
Str: 13
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16 (+2 Racial)
Wis: 11
Cha: 7
Build: White Haired Witch 4/Fighter 16
Feats:
Human: Power Attack
Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 3: Feral Combat Training
Level 5: Improved Natural Attack (Hair)
Level 7: Greater Grapple
Level 9: Kirin Strike
Level 11: Combat Reflexes
Level 13: Weapon Specialization (Hair)
Level 15: Iron Will
Level 17: Penetrating Strike
Level 19: Imp. Penetrating Strike
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (Hair)
Fighter 2: Improved Grapple
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Hair)
Fighter 6: Kirin Style
Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Hair)
Fighter 10: improved Critical (Hair)
Fighter 12: Kirin Path
Fighter 14: Dazing Assault
Fighter 16: Combat Expertise
This will give you Hair as a primary natural attack that has a ten foot reach and deals 1d6 + 1.5xInt Bonus (Since it's your only natural weapon) + 2xInt Bonus(Kirin Strike), and then the bonuses from weapon training, gloves of dueling, the focus/specialization feats, and weapon enhancements (Sadly, you'll need the Amulet of Mighty Fists).
As an added bonus, you get a bump to your will saves from dipping Witch and access to some low-level spells and the ability to use scrolls/wands. You do take a hit to your BAB (And consequently a reduction to your power attack damage) and Fort Saves, but none of those should be bad enough to be deal-breakers.
What would you recommend to get started? Every build I'm used to has been either dex or strength based.
Harmor, this reminds me of your infamous murky eyed inattentive ranger build! Pure awesome, go with it!
SKR noted, that if the Prehensile Hair is your only natural attack, and you do not attack with manufactured weapons, then it is treated as a primary natural attack.
All the White Hair Witch abilities are swift actions, making the Prehensile Hair Hex a superior choice.
Prehensile hair has a limited number of uses per day though. Not a problem for a full witch who gets to keep bumping that duration up, but if you're only dipping for a level or two then only having access to your specialized weapon for a couple minutes a day is a problem. White-haired witch isn't limited.
The White Hair's abilities being Swift Actions is hardly a bad thing; it's still a chance to make a swift-action grapple or trip whenever you hit, or a swift-action constrict on an opponent you're already grappling. Prehensile hair doesn't get any of those.
Plus, the White Hair's damage dice is one higher. Because 1d4 is so much better than 1d3.
It's probably worth noting that the above aasimar bard/duelist would have +8 inspire courage with 11 levels so you may want to wait on duelist until level 12. It actually doubles your base attack, which is super ;P
I think if you went lore warden it would work better, and improved natural attack is probably not worth it, maybe switch it out with Cornugon Smash, so after smacking someone they will be grappled, and shakened.
Improved critical for the hair is probably not worth it either.
Lore Warden is probably better if you want to focus more on grappling/tripping with the hair. As for Improved Natural Attack and Improved Critical, you're probably right; it was a very quick-and-dirty build, so I probably missed a couple good options.
White Hair Witch only use her Int for damage, and combat maneuver checks.
Not attack rolls.
Yeah, that's a problem. So is having a primary weapon you can only use for a minute or two a day.
wait... a fighter has what, bab 11+2 from weapon training? wow, you'd be hitting REALLY well at that level.
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White Hair Witch only use her Int for damage, and combat maneuver checks.
Not attack rolls.
This has been noted before, and is pretty obviously an error. If this were a rules question, I'd say you have a point, but outside of PFS, any DM worth his salt would rule that it should be Int for attack AND damage.
Edit: Also, did no one look at my suggested build at all? I had pretty much the same thing as Chengar up there 3 posts before his build...?
Wow I reread the WHW and this is true. This has to be an error because otherwise this archetype is useless.White Hair Witch only use her Int for damage, and combat maneuver checks.
Not attack rolls.
"Useless" is a bit of a stretch. From a glace at the archetype, I doubt it would take much effort at all to build a white-haired witch who could be of use to a party.