Design Manager
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You're both crazy.
A Halfling or Elf Rogue/Duelist at 18th level, built with a standard 20 point buy, hits a 53 AC without even trying very hard, under my interpretation of Canny Defense, which is easily on par with the best that your other defensive classes have to offer, while operating completely unencumbered, serving highly effectively as the party skill monkey, and dealing solid damage. Not to mention negating 3 attacks a round with Crane Wing, Parry, and Deflect Arrows. How is that not "fit for purpose"?
Canny Defense is not just meant to enhance your Armor, it's eventually meant to replace it altogether and allow you to run around with no armor penalties while doing your thing.
We could try it out Malachi. Build any melee character using a 20 point buy, your choice of class, unbuffed but with full WBL equipment for 18th level. I'll build an 18th level Rogue/Duelist (straight, no class dips, even though I'd probably dip monk if I were building it for myself) and we can compare AC and effectiveness.
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You're both crazy.
A Halfling or Elf Rogue/Duelist at 18th level hits a 53 AC without even trying very hard, under my interpretation, which is easily on par with the best that your other defensive classes have to offer, while operating completely unencumbered, serving highly effectively as the party skill monkey, and dealing solid damage. Not to mention negating 3 attacks a round with Crane Wing, Parry, and Deflect Arrows. How is that not "fit for purpose"?
Canny Defense is not just meant to enhance your Armor, it's eventually meant to replace it altogether and allow you to run around with no armor penalties while doing your thing.
If that were the case then they'd not allow armour at all and they'd give the full Int bonus from level 1.
You don't get +10 to AC from intelligence. If you can get AC 53 without armour then you can get more with armour and shield. At the level you can get +8 bracers you could get a +5 heavy shield and +5 mithral full plate, giving AC 34 assuming 16 Dex and nothing else. The bracers would give you AC 18+ Dex+Int mods. That's Dex and Int of 26 each to match the AC of 34. All the other stuff (like rings of protection) work the same for both.
You think two more skill points a level and +10 foot speed are enough to make them equal? You sound crazy to us!
A set of bracers +8 costs 64000gp. A +5 mithral shirt costs 26100gp, and adds +9 to AC, but caps your Dex bonus to AC at +6. Insisting that armour limits Int bonus to AC makes a duelist take the more expensive, lower AC version in order for Canny Defence to work. It becomes either a non-ability or a handicap. That means that it would not be fit for purpose.
The way we see the rule, Canny Defence works just fine, the duelist still does not outshine the tank for AC, and he still wears no more than light armour and looks like he's wearing none because he wears the mithral shirt under his clothes.
I'll take that challenge Ssalarn.
Meet Nudel, the Protector. She is a savage tribal druid/shaman who is more comfortable in her wild shape form than in her natural form, the former of which she spends most of her time.
She's meant to be a one hit wonder (lots of damage in a single attack), a tank, and a protector of her allies.
Her bodyguard feat and benevolent armor allow her to take the aid another action whenever an adjacent ally is attacked in melee, granting said ally a whopping +7 untyped bonus to AC.
Her Improved Vital Strike feat, and strong jaw spell allow her to average over 100 damage in a single hit each round.
To make up for her weak ranged ability, I've given her potions of fly which, thanks to potion sponges from the Advanced Race Guide, she can just pull out of her pouch with her mouth and then swallow whole. To this end, I've also given her the ability to "throw her natural weapons" with a range increment of 10 feet via a +0 furious throwing amulet of mighty fists. I envision it as her flinging her tail spikes at enemies, manticore style.
Due to her lack of caster levels and high Wisdom, her spells are relegated to support roles: a mix of battlefield control, buff, defense, and utility.
Her rage powers were selected to keep her alive and to allow her to cast a spell mid-rage if needed.
Now, I must admit that she is a 25-point buy character (I made her before taking on your challenge), but she is also three levels lower than your chosen standard.
Point is, if Canny Defense is limited by armor, then the duelist actually comes out BEHIND most other martial characters. Standard fighters so outclass the duelist in AC that it is ridiculous.
You speak of 53 AC being high when all the while you don't even seem to realize that a typical fighter at those levels can easily get 60 AC, like Seregon here.
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Design Manager
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I'll take that challenge Ssalarn.
Meet Nudel, the Protector. She is a savage tribal druid/shaman who is more comfortable in her wild shape form than in her natural form, the former of which she spends most of her time.
*Stuff*
You speak of 53 AC being high when all the while you don't even seem to realize that a typical fighter at those levels can easily get 60 AC, like Seregon here.
And that fighter won't have even remotely close to the skill capability of the Duelist, who will be highly mobile and just as useful out of combat as in. And I got that 53 without trying very much, it doesn't take much effort to get it to a 60 or better. The Duelist as a PrC does the least for the fighter, who already gets Armor Training. It's a much better class for 3/4 BAB classes that can capitolize on what it offers more fully, like the Rogue or the Monk.
I'll post my build tonight when I'm not posting on my smart phone between shipments :)|
Design Manager
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Just to sum up on our new page here:
We are discussing the Duelist's Canny Defense ability, which states: "When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus."
One camp says that this bonus to AC applies independently of your DEX bonus (i.e. is not affected by things which limit your DEX bonus, such as the limitations imposed by wearing (light) armor)
The other camp believes that this ability is added to DEX before it is applied to your AC, meaning that if you have a Chain Shirt with a Max Dex bonus of +4, and an 18 DEX and an 18 INT, the ability would be capped by the Max Dex bonus of the armor and you would not be able to gain more than the +4 to your AC.
And that fighter won't have even remotely close to the skill capability of the Duelist, who will be highly mobile and just as useful out of combat as in.I'll take that challenge Ssalarn.
Meet Nudel, the Protector. She is a savage tribal druid/shaman who is more comfortable in her wild shape form than in her natural form, the former of which she spends most of her time.
*Stuff*
You speak of 53 AC being high when all the while you don't even seem to realize that a typical fighter at those levels can easily get 60 AC, like Seregon here.
The thing with the duelist, is they NEED that good AC and skills to be anything but useless. Why? Because their damage output is crap.
Being limited to light or one-handed piercing weapons in only one hand REALLY limits a melee character's damage potential. Compare that to the two-weapon fighter, two-hander, archer, or most anyone else--all of which can get as high or higher AC than the duelist without loss of damage.
The returns should at least be equal to that which was lost.
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Design Manager
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An Elf Rogue/Duelist with an Agile weapon can add his DEX, PrC levels, his 5d6 Sneak Attack, and a few other things on there, being competitive in damage. He can steal your Animated Shield idea (thanks Seregon), use a Defensive Weapon, and easily turn that 53 AC into a 67, topping your big beefy fighter in Full Plate. When he's moving, that 67 AC becomes a 75 AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity. And he's still the party's fully capable skill monkey, with all that entails. Without wearing armor.
Canny Defense is incredibly clear about how it works. It enhances your Dex bonus to Armor Class, it does not enhance your Armor Class directly. And it doesn't need to.
Err, I'm sorry OP, really didn't mean to derail the thread or even start this discussion. Whaddya'll say we necro Ravingdork's thread from July moving this over there? Leave the shoes at the door and hit that awesome "FAQ" button on your way in, please.
Darn it I keep flip flopping.
Normally only the dex bonus is used to modify the dex bonus to AC*.
*which is capped by the way depending upon the armor that is used.
The book says " a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon."
That could read as the int bonus is an additional modifier to the dex bonus itself meaning it is capped.
It could also be read as the intelligence bonus is being added to the dex bonus that modifies AC which leaves the intelligence bonus as its own thing.
If they wanted the int bonus to remain separate they could have said:
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. However, if a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
Personally I feel like if the intelligence bonus is capped also then the ability is not really worth having**. My reading it makes me think it is restricted, but that just does not feel right.
**That however is not a valid argument when reading rules or debating them.
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More rambling---> The int is added to the dex bonus which is in turn capped by the armor. My RAW reading says the ability is not worth the paper it is written on. I would houserule it the other way, but since this is the rules section that really has no merit.
PS:Time to press the FAQ button.
An Elf Rogue/Duelist with an Agile weapon can add his DEX, PrC levels, his 5d6 Sneak Attack, and a few other things on there, being competitive in damage. He can steal your Animated Shield idea (thanks Seregon), use a Defensive Weapon, and easily turn that 53 AC into a 67, topping your big beefy fighter in Full Plate. When he's moving, that 67 AC becomes a 75 AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity. And he's still the party's fully capable skill monkey, with all that entails. Without wearing armor.
Canny Defense is incredibly clear about how it works. It enhances your Dex bonus to Armor Class, it does not enhance your Armor Class directly. And it doesn't need to.
Granted, but how's he going to hit anything for said damage with his lowered base attack bonus?
Congrats on getting an unnecessarily high AC (a 61 means nothing published can hit you on a natural 20--that's why I lowered Sergon's AC from his original 65ish), but I think you actually managed to LOWER the DPR thanks to your much higher miss chance.
Don't you still count as wielding a shield even when it is animated for the purpose of penalties?
Animated: As a move action, an animated shield can be loosed to defend its wielder on its own. For the following 4 rounds, the shield grants its bonus to the one who loosed it and then drops. While animated, the shield provides its shield bonus and the bonuses from all of the other shield special abilities it possesses, but it cannot take actions on its own, such as those provided by the bashing and blinding abilities. It can, however, use special abilities that do not require an action to function, such as arrow deflection and reflecting. While animated, a shield shares the same space as the activating character and accompanies the character who activated it, even if the character moves by magical means. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it to end its animation as a free action. Once a shield has been retrieved, it cannot be animated again for at least 4 rounds. This property cannot be added to a tower shield.
Note that the sentence says "such as" meaning the list is not all inclusive and the duelist losing his intelligence to AC would be a penalty, just like ASF is a penalty.
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Design Manager
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An Elf Rogue/Duelist with an Agile weapon can add his DEX, PrC levels, his 5d6 Sneak Attack, and a few other things on there, being competitive in damage. He can steal your Animated Shield idea (thanks Seregon), use a Defensive Weapon, and easily turn that 53 AC into a 67, topping your big beefy fighter in Full Plate. When he's moving, that 67 AC becomes a 75 AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity. And he's still the party's fully capable skill monkey, with all that entails. Without wearing armor.
Canny Defense is incredibly clear about how it works. It enhances your Dex bonus to Armor Class, it does not enhance your Armor Class directly. And it doesn't need to.Granted, but how's he going to hit anything for said damage with his lowered base attack bonus?
Congrats on getting an unnecessarily high AC (a 61 means nothing published can hit you on a natural 20--that's why I lowered Sergon's AC from his original 65ish), but I think you actually managed to LOWER the DPR thanks to your much higher miss chance.
If it's an unnecessarily high AC, then why does it matter that he can't wear armor? I have better AC and to-hit than any other rogue and decent damage to boot. I only called out Defending because I thought I saw a Defending weapon in you fighters inventory. We should jump to that other thread.
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I am playing a Tengu Swordmaster Rogue 10th/ Duelist 9th/ Aldori Swordlord 1st, stats are Str 14, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 12
When we i get to the next level thinking Either another level of rogue, or another aldori sword lord than go into the Fighter with the Aldori Sword lord archtype, and alternate between the prestidge class, as well as pick up another level of duelist
will post my character here shortly thanks for all the advice, and for relatively playing nice
I'll weigh my lurky self in here. I think Canny Defense is capped by the Dex mods. I'm not a numbers guy or even a big optimizer. Though, a Monk/Duelist is interesting, it's going to be MAD, whew. STR, DEX, INT And WIS, unless you focus solely on DEX instead of STR. Doable, honestly.
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Below is 2 different stat blocks for a halfling duelist. It uses material from ultimate combat, core rule book, advanced players guide, and advanced races. It's all that is unhittable AC and does an alot of of damage and hits very very often. It even passes on that AC bonus from Fighting defensively as a Luck bonus to AC to all adjacent allies.
It's a big read and is 20th level but it is perfectly feasible to bring down to 15th or 16th level really easily.
Halfling Duelist
Male Halfling Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 4 Duelist 10 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6
CG Small Humanoid (halfling)
Hero Points 3
Init +14; Senses Perception +27
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Defense
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AC 36, touch 30, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +16 Dex, +1 size, +3 dodge)
hp 208 (4d12+16d10+80)
Fort +21, Ref +25 (+1 vs. traps), Will +15; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities Canny Defense +6, Elaborate Defense +3, Parry, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 Furious, Holy Mithral Scimitar +38/+33/+28/+23 (1d4+26+2d6 vs, Evil/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +32/+27/+22/+17 (1d2-1/x2)
Special Attacks Precise Strike, Riposte, Singleton +1
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Statistics
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Str 6, Dex 25/31, Con 12/18, Int 16/22, Wis 8/14, Cha 12/18
Base Atk +20; CMB +17 (+19 Disarming); CMD 46 (48 vs. Disarm)
Feats Blundering Defense, Cautious Fighter, Combat Reflexes (11 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mobility, Piranha Strike -6/+12, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +33, Bluff +27, Diplomacy +10, Escape Artist +48, Fly +32, Perception +27, Perform (dance) +18, Sense Motive +25, Sleight of Hand +30, Stealth +34, Use Magic Device +24
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling
SQ Acrobatic Charge, Adaptable Luck +2/+1 (3/day), Controlled Rage, Controlled Rage: Constitution, Controlled Rage: Dexterity, Crippling Critical, Crowd Control +2, Deceptive Strike +2, Elusive +2, Enhanced Mobility, Fearless, Glamered, Good for What Ails You, Hero Points (3), No Escape (1/rage), No Retreat, Rage (11 rounds/day)
Combat Gear +5 Furious, Holy Mithral Scimitar, +5 Glamered, Slick, greater Silken ceremonial armor; Other Gear Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of mental superiority +6 (Sleight of Hand, Fly)
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Special Abilities
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Acrobatic Charge (Ex) You can charge over difficult terrain.
Adaptable Luck +2/+1 (3/day) +2 to one ability check, attack, save, or skill check, +1 after the roll.
Blundering Defense Total defense or fighting defensively grants adjacent allies half your AC bonus.
Canny Defense +6 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Cautious Fighter +2 AC when fighting defensively or using total defense.
Combat Reflexes (11 AoO/round) You may make up to 11 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Crippling Critical (Ex) Add a variety of extra effects when you crit.
Crowd Control +2 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Elaborate Defense +3 (Ex) +3 AC bonus when fighting defensively / on total defense.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a square.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Glamered Assumes appearance of normal clothes on command.
Good for What Ails You (Ex) While raging, drink alchohol to re-save vs. many conditions
Hero Points (3) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
No Escape (1/rage) (Ex) Keep up with a foe who tries to withdraw.
No Retreat (Ex) Enemies who withdraw provoke attacks of opportunity from you.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Piranha Strike -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Rage (11 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Riposte (Ex) AoO when you parry.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
This is a 20th level Halfling Duelist... Notice the only Defensive item he has is a +5 Silken Ceremonial Armor. This stat block doesn't include fighting defensively.
That's this one which is the halfing using both fighting defensively and piranha strike.
Halfling Duelist
Male Halfling Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 4 Duelist 10 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6
CG Small Humanoid (halfling)
Hero Points 3
Init +14; Senses Perception +27
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Defense
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AC 37, touch 31, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +16 Dex, +1 size, +4 dodge)
hp 208 (4d12+16d10+80)
Fort +21, Ref +25 (+1 vs. traps), Will +15; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities Canny Defense +6, Elaborate Defense +3, Parry, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 Furious, Holy Mithral Scimitar +32/+27/+22/+17 (1d4+38+2d6 vs, Evil/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +26/+21/+16/+11 (1d2+11/x2)
Special Attacks Precise Strike, Riposte, Singleton +1
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Statistics
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Str 6, Dex 25/31, Con 12/18, Int 16/22, Wis 8/14, Cha 12/18
Base Atk +20; CMB +17 (+19 Disarming); CMD 47 (49 vs. Disarm)
Feats Blundering Defense, Cautious Fighter, Combat Reflexes (11 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mobility, Piranha Strike -6/+12, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +33, Bluff +27, Diplomacy +10, Escape Artist +48, Fly +32, Perception +27, Perform (dance) +18, Sense Motive +25, Sleight of Hand +30, Stealth +34, Use Magic Device +24
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling
SQ Acrobatic Charge, Adaptable Luck +2/+1 (3/day), Controlled Rage, Controlled Rage: Constitution, Controlled Rage: Dexterity, Crippling Critical, Crowd Control +2, Deceptive Strike +2, Elusive +2, Enhanced Mobility, Fearless, Glamered, Good for What Ails You, Hero Points (3), No Escape (1/rage), No Retreat, Rage (11 rounds/day)
Combat Gear +5 Furious, Holy Mithral Scimitar, +5 Glamered, Slick, greater Silken ceremonial armor; Other Gear Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of mental superiority +6 (Sleight of Hand, Fly)
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Special Abilities
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Acrobatic Charge (Ex) You can charge over difficult terrain.
Adaptable Luck +2/+1 (3/day) +2 to one ability check, attack, save, or skill check, +1 after the roll.
Blundering Defense Total defense or fighting defensively grants adjacent allies half your AC bonus.
Canny Defense +6 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Cautious Fighter +2 AC when fighting defensively or using total defense.
Combat Reflexes (11 AoO/round) You may make up to 11 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Crippling Critical (Ex) Add a variety of extra effects when you crit.
Crowd Control +2 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Elaborate Defense +3 (Ex) +3 AC bonus when fighting defensively / on total defense.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a square.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Glamered Assumes appearance of normal clothes on command.
Good for What Ails You (Ex) While raging, drink alchohol to re-save vs. many conditions
Hero Points (3) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
No Escape (1/rage) (Ex) Keep up with a foe who tries to withdraw.
No Retreat (Ex) Enemies who withdraw provoke attacks of opportunity from you.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Piranha Strike -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Rage (11 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Riposte (Ex) AoO when you parry.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Just Think. He has the Urban Barbarian Which means he can rage for 11 rounds adding +4 to Dexterity and not suffer the usual rage penalty to AC, bringing his AC up to 47 while raging and his attack bonus and damage up 2 more points...
WITHOUT a Ring of Protection, not even +1
WITHOUT an Amulet of Natural Armor, not even +1
WITHOUT any Ioun Stones or other things...
Just a +5 Silken Ceremonial Armor and Items that Boost Dexterity and Intelligence...
You can even bring this build down to a 16th level version just by excising 4 levels of barbarian and 2 feats (Iron Will and Blundering Defense taking the hit most likely).
In other words. TRUST US! YOU'LL BE FINE FOR ARMOR CLASS!
Any AC less than 40 at 20th-level is laughable.
What's more, 20th-level characters don't really represent aything realistic.
Try getting a good duelist build at 5th, 9th, or 13th. I honestly don't believe there are any (that aren't trounced by other non-dualist builds).
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Design Manager
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Any AC less than 40 at 20th-level is laughable.
What's more, 20th-level characters don't really represent aything realistic.
Try getting a good duelist build at 5th, 9th, or 13th. I honestly don't believe there are any (that aren't trounced by other non-dualist builds).
You won't even be a Duelist until level 9, and you'll only have 4 levels of the class at 13th. That's why everyone is using high level builds, because it's a high level Prestige Class for most classes that it's intended for.
BTW, here's a quick Duelist build I put together for a RogueDuelist
I actually dumped a bunch of feats and took 4 of the Two-Weapon Fighting feats when I realized that every level appropriate challenge could only hit me on a nat 20 already, and I was hitting the best ACs on a 5 or better.
How are you getting 1d6+19?
Your dex has a modifier of +9, and the weapon is a +5. I can't find the other 4 points of damage.
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Design Manager
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How are you getting 1d6+19?
Your dex has a modifier of +9, and the weapon is a +5. I can't find the other 4 points of damage.
Oops, screwed that up a little, probably should have spent more time putting it together. It should be 1d6+14+10. I forgot to add my +5 from the weapon in and added my precision damage directly to my Sex bonus to damage.
"Sex bonus" ?? :)
My phone does that to sometimes. One time the "submit post" button was missing. I had to close the browser and then log back in.
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Design Manager
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"Sex bonus" ?? :)
My phone does that to sometimes. One time the "submit post" button was missing. I had to close the browser and then log back in.
Lol, still stuck on that typo. I was just thinking "What, you haven't seen Paizo's new Erotic Fantasy supplement? Over 150 new piercing weapons!"
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Back on (pirated) topic, though, I built a solid character, offensively and defensively, who still has nearly 200k left over for incidentals (like wands and potions and such), has an AC that a Tarrasque can only hit with a nat 20, has fantastic skills, and who can flat out negate multiple attacks a round. Attacking him actually increases his opportunities to deal damage!
And he was actually better offensively without armor since it let me snag those bodywraps. Moreover, he was built to PFS code, 20 point buy, average role for hp, WBL, etc. In a full party I would love to have that character as our skill-monkey.
Big T sucks, and is highly over rated. CR 20(5 below Big T) monsters have virtually the same attack bonus, and a buffed dragon will have a higher bonus. His(your duelist) fort and will save are way to low. Even with a +5 cloak of resistance he is lacking in the two saves most likely to jack someone and, he is strongest in the save he has, and those counter attacks are also have to be higher than the incoming attack. On top of that you have to be close enough to hit the target. The AC is nice though, but it is not enough to make up for the rest of the character. If you shore those saves up though I think the character is a lot better off.
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How did a rogue7 qualify to be a duelist, with it's +6 BAB requirement?
I've always despised the idea that character comparisons should be based on comparing what they'd be like at 20th level! What about getting to 20th level?
The reason I said I'd accept your challenge if it was level 9 is because that is the dilemma I'll soon face (with any luck). By that time, Sukie will be Rgr2/Ftr(weapon master-aldori dueling sword)4/duelist3. Her Dex will be 20, or 22 if I can find the right belt, her Int will have gone from 15 to 16 at 8th level, and she'll be wearing a mithral shirt.
I built her with the expectation that Canny Defence will work! That it will add 1 point per duelist level to my AC until she runs out of Int bonus at +3.
Assuming Dex22, Int16 and mithral shirt (ignore magical plusses for the sake of arguement because any comparison character would also have magical plusses), my AC will be 20 at 6th, 21 at 7th, 22 at 8th, 23 at 9th onwards.
If we read Canny Defence like you do, then my AC stays at 20, and Canny Defence does nothing! At 9th level I could throw my (by now, enchanted at great expence) mithral shirt away ant replace it with silken ceremonial armour, so Canny Defence would work, but my AC is still 20!
Either way, reading Canny Defence as you do results in an ability that is not fit for purpose. Telling me it will be okay at level 20 does not comfort me. Not that I'm convinced by that, either.
BTW, at the same level, if I wasn't a duelist, I could have a Dex of 16, a heavy shield and some mithral full plate, and my AC would be 24. Canny Defence '...allows them to dodge their opponents with ease.' Well, the way you read it, no it doesn't.
I realise what happened. In 3.5 the duelist was a poor PrC. I'm a fencer myself and I was very disappointed by it. I like Pathfinder's version a lot better. In 3.5 the duelist couldn't wear any armour. In PF, they deliberately went through the whole class and whenever it said 'while wearing no armour', changed it to 'when wearing light or no armour', clearly showing intent. But the old 'cut and paste' gremlin rears it's ugly head again. They didn't change the wording of the rest of Canny Defence.
So, if it originally was intended for the Int bonus to make the Dex bonus bigger, it made no difference as there was no armour worn to worry about how it interacts with an armour's max Dex. The cut and paste job shows that they didn't bother to consider that the unchanged wording now makes their efforts at letting them use light armour was either wasted or made Canny Defence useless.
On the other hand, if they read Canny Defence the way we do, then there was nothing to fix!
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There is nothing to fix.
Canny Defense adds to the Dex bonus, and the Dex bonus is limited by armor.
Suck it up, pay for the bracers, and realize that your Int bonus is there to sub for the armor and shield you are giving up.
ANYONE can get +11 to any stat, eventually. +6 Item, +5 Book/Wishes. A Duellist with 12 Int is guaranteed able to hit a 22. With a 13, 24. His Dex will likely be 30-32 at the same time.
That combination is +18 to AC, standing there smiling in the nude. WIth Bracers +8, that's +26. +26 is higher then a standard melee in mithral full plate +5, +5 Heavy Shield, and any dex score of 16+ can attain. Only a high level fighter with Armor Training can supercede you...and he's SUPPOSED to be able to. He is, after all wearing armor, and armor is supposed to be useful!
And you don't have the limitations of wearing armor. ALso note, he's spending 59k on Mithral Full Plate and a +5 Heavy Shield. You're spending 64k. The price is about the same.
So, don't complain about the bracers or the AC. As soon as you grab the bracers, you lose all limits, and you're going to rapidly start outpacing others in normal AC...particularly if you start using Expertise and the like, which a Duellist shines at.
The Duelist does not have an AC problem. Their problem tends to be damage output, not defense. But they benefit from more skill points, agility, and have other strengths.
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On a side note, that halfling build above is using a scimitar, which I don't believe you can use in a Duellist build without a specific feat or PrC, correct?
==Aelryinth
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How did a rogue7 qualify to be a duelist, with it's +6 BAB requirement?
I've always despised the idea that character comparisons should be based on comparing what they'd be like at 20th level! What about getting to 20th level?
The reason I said I'd accept your challenge if it was level 9 is because that is the dilemma I'll soon face (with any luck). By that time, Sukie will be Rgr2/Ftr(weapon master-aldori dueling sword)4/duelist3. Her Dex will be 20, or 22 if I can find the right belt, her Int will have gone from 15 to 16 at 8th level, and she'll be wearing a mithral shirt.
I built her with the expectation that Canny Defence will work! That it will add 1 point per duelist level to my AC until she runs out of Int bonus at +3.
Assuming Dex22, Int16 and mithral shirt (ignore magical plusses for the sake of arguement because any comparison character would also have magical plusses), my AC will be 20 at 6th, 21 at 7th, 22 at 8th, 23 at 9th onwards.
If we read Canny Defence like you do, then my AC stays at 20, and Canny Defence does nothing! At 9th level I could throw my (by now, enchanted at great expence) mithral shirt away ant replace it with silken ceremonial armour, so Canny Defence would work, but my AC is still 20!
Either way, reading Canny Defence as you do results in an ability that is not fit for purpose. Telling me it will be okay at level 20 does not comfort me. Not that I'm convinced by that, either.
BTW, at the same level, if I wasn't a duelist, I could have a Dex of 16, a heavy shield and some mithral full plate, and my AC would be 24. Canny Defence '...allows them to dodge their opponents with ease.' Well, the way you read it, no it doesn't.
I realise what happened. In 3.5 the duelist was a poor PrC. I'm a fencer myself and I was very disappointed by it. I like Pathfinder's version a lot better. In 3.5 the duelist couldn't wear any armour. In PF, they deliberately went through the whole class and whenever it said 'while wearing no armour', changed it to 'when wearing...
Level 9 is not an appropriate level of comparison. The Duelist is intended for Rogues and Bards primarily, who won't be taking it until 9th level. Read the class description, it says right in there "Most Duelist are Rogues or Bards..."
Fighters can use it, but it's not meant for them. That's why you're butting up against this issue.|
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There is nothing to fix.
Canny Defense adds to the Dex bonus, and the Dex bonus is limited by armor.
Suck it up, pay for the bracers, and realize that your Int bonus is there to sub for the armor and shield you are giving up.
ANYONE can get +11 to any stat, eventually. +6 Item, +5 Book/Wishes. A Duellist with 12 Int is guaranteed able to hit a 22. With a 13, 24. His Dex will likely be 30-32 at the same time.
That combination is +18 to AC, standing there smiling in the nude. WIth Bracers +8, that's +26. +26 is higher then a standard melee in mithral full plate +5, +5 Heavy Shield, and any dex score of 16+ can attain. Only a high level fighter with Armor Training can supercede you...and he's SUPPOSED to be able to. He is, after all wearing armor, and armor is supposed to be useful!
And you don't have the limitations of wearing armor. ALso note, he's spending 59k on Mithral Full Plate and a +5 Heavy Shield. You're spending 64k. The price is about the same.
So, don't complain about the bracers or the AC. As soon as you grab the bracers, you lose all limits, and you're going to rapidly start outpacing others in normal AC...particularly if you start using Expertise and the like, which a Duellist shines at.
Duelist does not have an AC problem. Their problem tends to be damage output, not defense. But they benefit from more skill points, agility, and have other strengths.
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On a side note, that halfling build above is using a scimitar, which I don't believe you can use in a Duellist build without a specific feat or PrC, correct?==Aelryinth
Duelists can use light or one-handed weapons and gain proficiency with all martial weapons, so I believe his build is fine as is. Although he wouldn't be getting his precise strike, which is upward of 10 points of damage.
I think without Dervish Dance it's not doable. I could be wrong, but I think the feat rattles off Duelist in it's description.
Back to the original question, I wish I had the full version of Hero Lab, because a Crane Style Duelist sounds awesome. Could definetly work more on damage output in my opinion. But, feh. I'm okay with that.
Edit: Yeah, you can use a Scimitar, but you'll lose out on soem class feats.
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I think without Dervish Dance it's not doable. I could be wrong, but I think the feat rattles off Duelist in it's description.
Back to the original question, I wish I had the full version of Hero Lab, because a Crane Style Duelist sounds awesome. Could definetly work more on damage output in my opinion. But, feh. I'm okay with that.
Agile weapons dude. PFS tested, Duelist approved.
I'm not familar with the Agile weapons. Does it cause the weapon to be piercing? I'm pretty sure that the Duelist need a one-handed or light piercing weapon for some of it's class feats.
many of the class benefits of a duelist only work with one-handed piercing weapons.
The scimitar is not a one handed peircing weapon.
So, yeah, think you need Dervish Dance in there, and I didn't see it.
==Aelryinth
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I'm not familar with the Agile weapons. Does it cause the weapon to be piercing? I'm pretty sure that the Duelist need a one-handed or light piercing weapon for some of it's class feats.
Agile weapons may use your Dex for damage in place of strength. They must be useable with Weapon Finesse I believe. That's why my elf just uses an Agile Rapier. Had an urban barbarian who used an Agile Elven Curve Blade, that was pretty fun.
Right. But, the Duelist need to use a one-handed or light piercing weapon for some of its feature.
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Big T sucks, and is highly over rated. CR 20(5 below Big T) monsters have virtually the same attack bonus, and a buffed dragon will have a higher bonus. His(your duelist) fort and will save are way to low. Even with a +5 cloak of resistance he is lacking in the two saves most likely to jack someone and, he is strongest in the save he has, and those counter attacks are also have to be higher than the incoming attack. On top of that you have to be close enough to hit the target. The AC is nice though, but it is not enough to make up for the rest of the character. If you shore those saves up though I think the character is a lot better off.
I built him by PFS rules, which hurt a little, and laid him out unbuffed, but remember, he's still got 1/4 of his WBL to shore up his weaknesses, and a capped out UMD. I gave him Slippery Mind because I knew his will was weak. I realized it was a little silly to push his AC any farther, even an Ancient Red can only hit him without critting if it's casting True Strike. His damage is solid too, his average is like 312 a round , which beats the he'll out of what most skill-heavy characters can pull off.
Ohhh. Wait. you're original comment was about the damage output of my post. Not the Scimitar. Okay. Got it. I was more questioning the Scimitar without Dervish Dance.
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There is nothing to fix.
Canny Defense adds to the Dex bonus, and the Dex bonus is limited by armor. (it makes no sense that an Int bonus is limited by armour, nor that being smart makes you more agile. The concept is that you can use your intelligence to enable you to use what agility you have more efficiently by anticipating opponents attacks)
Suck it up, pay for the bracers, and realize that your Int bonus is there to sub for the armor and shield you are giving up. (if that were true then the purpose of Canny Defence changes from 'making AC higher' to 'making you remove the light armour that we just changed the class to allow you to wear'. What kind of useless ability is that?)
ANYONE can get +11 to any stat, eventually. +6 Item, +5 Book/Wishes. A Duellist with 12 Int is guaranteed able to hit a 22. With a 13, 24. His Dex will likely be 30-32 at the same time. (this gets me annoyed! A ninth level character with three levels of duelist is not going to have the 26 Dex and Int needed to make a bracer-wearing duelist equal an armour-wearing warrior! Canny Defence is available to a seventh level character. It's total bull to think that any prestige class ability only starts to become useful at level twenty!)
That combination is +18 to AC, standing there smiling in the nude. WIth Bracers +8, that's +26. +26 is higher then a standard melee in mithral full plate +5, +5 Heavy Shield, and any dex score of 16+ can attain. Only a high level fighter with Armor Training can supercede you...and he's SUPPOSED to be able to. He is, after all wearing armor, and armor is supposed to be useful! (see above. What about my duelist3 with 22 Dex and 16 Int. To be of any use, Canny Defence has to work for her from the start, not wait until her stats are both 28!)
And you don't have the limitations of wearing armor. ALso note, he's spending 59k on Mithral Full Plate and a +5 Heavy Shield. You're spending 64k. The price is about the same. (the armour I'm wearing is light, concealed under clothing, and has no armour check penalty. Why would that not be close enough to the duelist concept? Why would Canny Defence be designed, not to increase AC, but to get her to throw away her mithral shirt?)
So, don't complain about the bracers or the AC. As soon as you grab the bracers, you lose all limits, and you're going to rapidly start outpacing others in normal AC...particularly if you start using Expertise and the like, which a Duellist shines at. (any non-duelist Dex based warrior encounters the max Dex issue, including duelists using Canny Defence as I read it! That may make me choose to switch to bracers at [very] high level. The way you read it, Canny Defence doesn't help me; it just makes me hit that wall instantly. That's a disadvantage!)
The Duelist does not have an AC problem. (they do have a Canny Defence problem, the way you read it)Their problem tends to be damage output, not defense. (im actually very happy with their damage output, thanks to Precise Strike) But they benefit from more skill points, agility, and have other strengths.
==Aelryinth
First of all I'd like to make clear that I'm in no way attempting to 'fix' your post! : )
I'm just trying to find the best way to answer your points. I lack the skill to dis-entangle my comments from the greyness, so I put my comments in brackets so you'd know which words were mine.
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Malachi, I don't see them hitting any wall. You can lower their dex and int and focus on armor or you can pump those stats and have no need of armor. I think that makes a lot of sense for the Duelist, honestly. As someone posted above, Duelists do seem to lean towards Rogues and Bards. (I am totally going to make a Bard Duelists. Those buff spells are pretty nice.)
You don't need armor as a Duelist, later. You will need some until you can really pump the stats up. I had a Duelist, without armor, with a 36 AC. now, as I don't have the full version of Hero Lab, I can't save those files, so I can't really show you the work. But with Combat Expertise, he could 40 Ac pretty easily. Had some pretty decent HP, so if they slipped past AC I could handle it. Now, granted, I build most of my characters to level 20. Duelist may not be the greatest idea for lower level campaigns, though, I'm not sure any of the PrCs are very good at lower levels. That is just my opinion.
Saying that, if the INT bonus did not get capped by armor, I think it might be too good.
Course, now I want to make a Barbarian Duelist. Can you Rage and you precision damage? I think you can, but I'm unsure.
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Malachi, I don't see them hitting any wall. You can lower their dex and int and focus on armor or you can pump those stats and have no need of armor. I think that makes a lot of sense for the Duelist, honestly. As someone posted above, Duelists do seem to lean towards Rogues and Bards. (I am totally going to make a Bard Duelists. Those buff spells are pretty nice.)
You don't need armor as a Duelist, later. You will need some until you can really pump the stats up. I had a Duelist, without armor, with a 36 AC. now, as I don't have the full version of Hero Lab, I can't save those files, so I can't really show you the work. But with Combat Expertise, he could 40 Ac pretty easily. Had some pretty decent HP, so if they slipped past AC I could handle it. Now, granted, I build most of my characters to level 20. Duelist may not be the greatest idea for lower level campaigns, though, I'm not sure any of the PrCs are very good at lower levels. That is just my opinion.
Saying that, if the INT bonus did not get capped by armor, I think it might be too good.
Course, now I want to make a Barbarian Duelist. Can you Rage and you precision damage? I think you can, but I'm unsure.
No reason you can't. You can Rage and sneak attack, which is essentially the same thing. As long as you're flanking anyways, orhave them denied Dex some other way. I don't think you can ragesneak...
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The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.
As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.
How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.
* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon
Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.
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The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.
As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.
How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.
* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon
Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.
Thanks so much for taking the time to weigh in Sean! I have one other question for you: Since the INT bonus is not a DEX bonus, does it still apply to touch AC?
Thanks very much Sean. It's so great having a dev team active in the community for exactly this kind of thing.
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The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.
As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.
How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.
* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon
Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.
I think I got my first man-crush! : )
Seriously, I'm sure I speak for us all when I say 'Thankyou' for taking the time and trouble to clear up this vexing issue!
I hope you are able to make a habit of it. : )
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good to see a revision coming. Note that he has tacitly admitted that our interpretation of it being limited is correct, because of the Add to Dexterity language.
And yes, it still applies to touch AC. Touch AC ignores armor and shield bonuses...all others still apply.
And I will note that you are not suffering because your INt+Dex bonus is higher then your armor allows. You are simply not making full use of your bonuses at this time, because you are wearing armor. At the outside, this means you now have 1 AC less then a guy with mithral plate armor who spent 8k more on his protection then you did...and your touch AC is much higher. And he's annoyed because he's got 18 Dex and getting no benefit out of it!
Kindly note that your Int+dex argument 'not working' is also a 'Just Dex' argument as soon as you get your dex to 24...you aren't maximizing your AC because now your armor is again restricting you. With the Int bonus, it's just going to do it 'sooner'.
What you're basically arguing is that because you've got very high stats, you should automatically be entitled to pass the limits at an earlier point, which got no sympathy from me. It would be nice, but it wasn't mandatory. SKR's revision in your favor is a tip of the hat, but certainly not a requirement. If you had a 16 in Int and Dex, would this even be an issue?
So, in the end, you ARE going to be going with bracers, only from a pure Dex basis, not an Int+Dex basis. Because that's how Duelists roll.
And I'm sorry, you can't wear mithral armor under a pirate blouse cut down to there, or a Qadiri dancer's outfit. You can add some golden bracelets, woo woo!
==Aelryinth
Very glad we'll see a FAQ coming, and that it makes logical sense. The wording was quite clear to me in RAW, but it just didn't make sense that armor would keep your from using your brain.
Gotta agree with the earlier comment - great do have a development team that hears the players' questions and concerns and jumps into the mix.
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Thanks so much for taking the time to weigh in Sean! I have one other question for you: Since the INT bonus is not a DEX bonus, does it still apply to touch AC?
Yes.