The Crane and the Duelist do they stack?


Rules Questions

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Huh. That makes sense, thematically. Now, my Fighter/Wizard/EldKnight/Duelist will be even better <.<


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Gah! This had to come after Ssalarn convinced me of his interpretation and I "fixed" my character?

Now I have to re-adjust her all over again!

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Ravingdork wrote:

Gah! This had to come after Ssalarn convinced me of his interpretation and I "fixed" my character?

Now I have to re-adjust her all over again!

LOL! Sorry RD. Sean did say that my RAW interpretation was correct, but that it shouldn't have said what it did to begin with. There'll be a nice FAQ to protect future players from unnecessary character rewrites, so your sacrifice was not in vain!


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

How did a rogue7 qualify to be a duelist, with it's +6 BAB requirement?

I've always despised the idea that character comparisons should be based on comparing what they'd be like at 20th level! What about getting to 20th level?

We have had our disagreements, but you are spot on this time. :)


Ssalarn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Big T sucks, and is highly over rated. CR 20(5 below Big T) monsters have virtually the same attack bonus, and a buffed dragon will have a higher bonus. His(your duelist) fort and will save are way to low. Even with a +5 cloak of resistance he is lacking in the two saves most likely to jack someone and, he is strongest in the save he has, and those counter attacks are also have to be higher than the incoming attack. On top of that you have to be close enough to hit the target. The AC is nice though, but it is not enough to make up for the rest of the character. If you shore those saves up though I think the character is a lot better off.
I built him by PFS rules, which hurt a little, and laid him out unbuffed, but remember, he's still got 1/4 of his WBL to shore up his weaknesses, and a capped out UMD. I gave him Slippery Mind because I knew his will was weak. I realized it was a little silly to push his AC any farther, even an Ancient Red can only hit him without critting if it's casting True Strike. His damage is solid too, his average is like 312 a round , which beats the he'll out of what most skill-heavy characters can pull off.

A silver dragon can cast divine favor and hit your character, and dragons(within the CR 20 range) can attack you with spells and combat maneuvers also.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.

As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.

How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.

* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon

Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.

I am so that it works like I want it to work instead of how I read it. :)


wraithstrike wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Big T sucks, and is highly over rated. CR 20(5 below Big T) monsters have virtually the same attack bonus, and a buffed dragon will have a higher bonus. His(your duelist) fort and will save are way to low. Even with a +5 cloak of resistance he is lacking in the two saves most likely to jack someone and, he is strongest in the save he has, and those counter attacks are also have to be higher than the incoming attack. On top of that you have to be close enough to hit the target. The AC is nice though, but it is not enough to make up for the rest of the character. If you shore those saves up though I think the character is a lot better off.
I built him by PFS rules, which hurt a little, and laid him out unbuffed, but remember, he's still got 1/4 of his WBL to shore up his weaknesses, and a capped out UMD. I gave him Slippery Mind because I knew his will was weak. I realized it was a little silly to push his AC any farther, even an Ancient Red can only hit him without critting if it's casting True Strike. His damage is solid too, his average is like 312 a round , which beats the he'll out of what most skill-heavy characters can pull off.
A silver dragon can cast divine favor and hit your character, and dragons(within the CR 20 range) can attack you with spells and combat maneuvers also.

This is what happens when I am don't bother to read the entire thread first. :)


Ssalarn wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.

As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.

How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.

* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon

Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.

Thanks so much for taking the time to weigh in Sean! I have one other question for you: Since the INT bonus is not a DEX bonus, does it still apply to touch AC?

I know SKR already said yes, but here is why.

Quote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Dark Archive

I like the idea of a Monk Duelist with Hamatula Strike, Crane Riposte, Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. But then again, I'm an insufferable git. :P

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

How did a rogue7 qualify to be a duelist, with it's +6 BAB requirement?

I've always despised the idea that character comparisons should be based on comparing what they'd be like at 20th level! What about getting to 20th level?

We have had our disagreements, but you are spot on this time. :)

What a nice thing to say. : )

I'm glad that sanity is restored re: Canny Defence. It all makes sense now!

I know people have found Crane Wing, and the monk levels to get it early, is a powerful combo, but I don't think a PrC based on european fencing should need oriental monk levels to be competitive.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

How did a rogue7 qualify to be a duelist, with it's +6 BAB requirement?

I've always despised the idea that character comparisons should be based on comparing what they'd be like at 20th level! What about getting to 20th level?

We have had our disagreements, but you are spot on this time. :)

What a nice thing to say. : )

I'm glad that sanity is restored re: Canny Defence. It all makes sense now!

I know people have found Crane Wing, and the monk levels to get it early, is a powerful combo, but I don't think a PrC based on european fencing should need oriental monk levels to be competitive.

Hey, I built my Duelist without a single level of monk! The trick is to not fight with a sword for like, the first 4 levels of game play. All of a sudden, you drop your bow, whip out your rapier, leap into the fray and your party goes "Huh, our crappy archer was a decent swordsman all along... Who knew?"

I'm actually glad SKR came in and ruled this way, it makes the Duelist much more useful and accessible to a wider array of characters, instead of a very narrow selection of builds.

Silver Crusade

The monk thing wasn't aimed at you. : )

Sukie (Rgr2/Ftr(weapon master)4/Duelist?) Used an Aldori Dueling Sword from the start. Her shtick is that she uses it two-handed with power attack. It takes all of her feats to qualify for the PrC via Aldori Weapon Mastery. I love playing her!

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The monk thing wasn't aimed at you. : )

Sukie (Rgr2/Ftr(weapon master)4/Duelist?) Used an Aldori Dueling Sword from the start. Her shtick is that she uses it two-handed with power attack. It takes all of her feats to qualify for the PrC via Aldori Weapon Mastery. I love playing her!

Have you looked at that new Aldori Duelmaster (or whatever it's called) from Paths of Prestige? It might be exactly what you're looking for.

**EDIT** Aldori Swordlord


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:

The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.

As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.

How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.

* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon

Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.

This is good news, thank you!

Why not just call it a dodge bonus, then? Dodge bonuses all stack with each other, so no issue of conflict, and dodge bonuses go away anytime you lose dex bonus to AC. Just seems simpler than what you're saying.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The monk thing wasn't aimed at you. : )

Sukie (Rgr2/Ftr(weapon master)4/Duelist?) Used an Aldori Dueling Sword from the start. Her shtick is that she uses it two-handed with power attack. It takes all of her feats to qualify for the PrC via Aldori Weapon Mastery. I love playing her!

Have you looked at that new Aldori Duelmaster (or whatever it's called) from Paths of Prestige? It might be exactly what you're looking for.

**EDIT** Aldori Swordlord

I've heard about it, but not seen it. : (

Where do I get 'Paths of Prestige'? I haven't seen it in the shops. Is it out yet?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The monk thing wasn't aimed at you. : )

Sukie (Rgr2/Ftr(weapon master)4/Duelist?) Used an Aldori Dueling Sword from the start. Her shtick is that she uses it two-handed with power attack. It takes all of her feats to qualify for the PrC via Aldori Weapon Mastery. I love playing her!

Have you looked at that new Aldori Duelmaster (or whatever it's called) from Paths of Prestige? It might be exactly what you're looking for.

**EDIT** Aldori Swordlord

I've heard about it, but not seen it. : (

Where do I get 'Paths of Prestige'? I haven't seen it in the shops. Is it out yet?

It is out and should be available at your gaming store or local book store. You can also check out the class here.


Man. I think the interpretation that it simply increases your Dexterity bonus to AC, and thus runs up against max Dex, is more in line with a plain reading of the wording of the ability. But I want Malachi et al to be right, and I think there's probably enough ambiguity in the wording to rule it the other way without being considered a house rule. That's what I'd do.

-edit- Apparently SKR ninjad me by a page. Um... carry on!


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

The Canny Defense ability is worded very poorly.

As written, it's easily interpreted that you use her Int bonus to boost her Dex bonus to AC, which would mean it runs into the max Dex limit from armor.

How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.

* when wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and wielding a melee weapon

Expect a FAQ blog about this next week.

I have to point out that this is not the historical ruling of the Duelists Canny Defense ability. Going back the 3.5e, the text was clear that you add your int mod to your dex mod (which would leave your Dex Mod + Int Mod limited by the armors max Dex bonus) "When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus."

Now, I know this isn't 3.5e and that some things have changed, but this change is a fairly significant boost to the Duelist Prestige class. It's basically +1 armor class per level from levels 7 to 10 since the Duelist is usually at a Dex score of ~22, hitting the max Dex bonus of Mithral Chain shirt at +6 right around level 6. Under this new ruling, you can keep your Mithral Chain shirt and continue boosting your armor by 1 point per level provided that you have the Int score (almost certain to be 18 by level 10 from base + items.)

That said, the fighter base class got a fairly significant bump in the way of armor training, so this change may simply put the Duelist back on par with the fighter. Also, I don't see it as necessary to go against an official ruling - The duelist is certainly not overpowered as written, so I don't think this would break the game. However, this does feel like an off the cuff ruling by SKR, so I would like to see the official FAQ post on it... This is where I come to you for help - my google-fu has failed me. Where is the official FAQ? I want to confirm that this made it to the FAQ.

Designer

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The duelist can use a boost, it's a very, very specialized class and has a lot of hoops you must jump through.

Silver Crusade

@MechE; the 3.5 duelist PrC could not wear any armour and still benefit from Canny Defence, so max Dex never came into it in 3.5!


Good point - not exactly sure how I missed that line. So the Duelist already got an effective armor class bump in Pathfinder of approximately 4 points simply from the ability to wear a Mithral chain shirt.

Silver Crusade

MechE_ wrote:
Good point - not exactly sure how I missed that line. So the Duelist already got an effective armor class bump in Pathfinder of approximately 4 points simply from the ability to wear a Mithral chain shirt.

Yes. It's not all gravy, though!

Now, the duelist does run into the max Dex issue! When they copy&pasted the 'add Int bonus to Dex bonus' line it was careless; it made Canny Defence useless if read a certain way. Hence SKR's clarification. Even with the clarification there is stil a max Dex issue which will hit you as soon as your Dex hits 24 and you have to choose between the +4 armour bonus from your mithral shirt and a lower armour bonus from armour with a higher max Dex.

So, duelists got a bump in AC which evaporates as they level up.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
MechE_ wrote:
Good point - not exactly sure how I missed that line. So the Duelist already got an effective armor class bump in Pathfinder of approximately 4 points simply from the ability to wear a Mithral chain shirt.

Yes. It's not all gravy, though!

Now, the duelist does run into the max Dex issue! When they copy&pasted the 'add Int bonus to Dex bonus' line it was careless; it made Canny Defence useless if read a certain way. Hence SKR's clarification. Even with the clarification there is stil a max Dex issue which will hit you as soon as your Dex hits 24 and you have to choose between the +4 armour bonus from your mithral shirt and a lower armour bonus from armour with a higher max Dex.

So, duelists got a bump in AC which evaporates as they level up.

Very correct Malachi - I must have missed that in my 6 AM post... Ugh, i think I need to stop posting between 12 AM and 6 AM, lol.

Summary (from my point of view) - Duelist was intended to get a bump of around 4 points to AC by being able to wear light armor. This keeps the duelist in line with the similar bump the fighter got from armor training. However, that ~4 point bump gets erroded as your Int mod begins applying to your Dex mod and you hit the max dex bonus. As a result, in Pathfinder the Int mod is not supposed to add to Dex mod to get rid of this problem, effectively maintaing the bump they intentionally gave the class in the first place. Thanks for this clarification SKR and everyone else.

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