The Crane and the Duelist do they stack?


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Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Am making a character of 20th level and was taking levels in Duelist, and had the Crane style feat tree was wondering if the abilities of both stacked, is Crane Wing and Crane Riptose, with the regular suelist class abilities??

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

They do, and it's one of the best ways to make a single weapon, empty hand character you can possibly come up with.

Grand Lodge

Awesome thank you, my fellow players will hate me
Hopefully I win our tournament

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It is not the strongest combo ever, but it is good.

I am glad they work together.

Everyone deserves the chance to be able to play Inigo Montoya in their game.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

blackbloodtroll wrote:

It is not the strongest combo ever, but it is good.

I am glad they work together.

Everyone deserves the chance to be able to play Inigo Montoya in their game.

"'Allo. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Word BBT.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:-

''Word BBT.''

You keep using that word.

I don't think it means what you think it means!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Bazing!

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

LOL!!!

Yay for Princess Bride thread pirating....
Maybe even Dread Pirating....

Silver Crusade

I've spent the last few years building an immunity to thread-pirating...!

(it's my favourite film! What can I do?)


Blackbloodtroll wrote wrote:


Bazing!

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
SuperUberGeek wrote:
Blackbloodtroll wrote wrote:


Bazing!
I do not think that means what you think it means.

Already been done.

That's bad, and you should feel bad.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Here's a build guide for you to follow, Critzible.

Teehee:
She's an extremely effective duelist character who can negate many attacks made against her and can pump her AC into the stratosphere. ... Attacking her provokes. Moving away from her provokes. She punishes her foes every step of the way. ... Maybe she will inspire you?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Trolls of unusual size...

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Glutton wrote:
Trolls of unusual size...

Nothing as obnoxious as a T.O.U.S.


Mr. Dork - I was reading this thread a bit ago and came back on to ask for good ideas for a duelist build. I like yours quite a bit.

I loved my duelist in 3.5 - haven't played him in many years, but still chose him as my alias for these forums. They seem a good deal less powerfully awesome in PF, but that's not altogether a bad thing, and I've been wanting to play one.

I don't suppose you have this build in level order? I can reconstruct it, but if it's handy, that'd be great.

Anyone else have duelist builds to share?

EDIT: Just took a closer look at Kirom's build - what's up with the references to the scimitar?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My own 20th level build:

4 Fighter (Weapon Master)
1 Monk (Maneuver Master (preferred) or Martial Artist as alignment allows)
2 Aldori Swordlord
9 Duelist
2 more Aldori Sworldlord
Fill in the rest with either monk, fighter, aldori sword lord, or duelist.

Crane Style and the 4 levels swordlord remove the penalty from fighting defensively. Aldori swordlord gets you the dex to damage. Monk and Duelist open up Intelligence and Wisdom to AC. The cost is 1 point of base attack bonus and the penalty to piranha strike that causes but it does further boost the ac to pretty insane levels.

Silver Crusade

I've been playing this build in Kingmaker for a few months; just hit level 3 last night. : )

Half-Elf • +2 Dex, Ancestral Arms gives EWP (Aldori Dueling Sword), Multi-Talented gives two favoured classes (Ranger and Fighter)

Traits • Sword Scion (of course!), Rich Parents (to get Mwk sword & armour)

Str14 Dex20 Con11 Int15 Wis10 Cha15 (rolled stats, 15 could have gone on Con but I'm role-playing : D)

1st • Rgr1, Favoured Enemy (Human), Weapon Finesse, EWP as above
2nd • Rgr2, Combat Style-Two Handed Weapon for Power Attack bonus feat
3rd • Ftr1 (Weapon Master archetype), Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (ADS)
4th • Ftr2, Weapon Guard, Aldori Dueling Mastery, +1 Con
5th • Ftr3, Weapon Training 1 (ADS), Dodge
6th • Ftr4, Mobility
At this point I qualify for the Duelist PrC, and do +1 damage/level, and +1 AC/level up to +3 (my lvl8 stat bonus will be Int)

I will use my ADS in two hands and using Power Attack, giving these numbers (not counting any gear I pick up later, just the Mwk ADS and Mwk studded leather. I'll get a mithral shirt as soon as I can, and get my sword and armour enchanted ASAP)

Level • Att Bon • Damage • AC • Init
1st. +8. 1d8+3. 18. +5
2nd. +8. 1d8+6. 18. +5
3rd. +10. 1d8+6. 18. +5
4th. +10. 1d8+9. 19. +7
5th. +12. 1d8+10. 20. +7
6th. +13. 1d8+10. 20. +7

From level 7 till level 16 I'll take Duelist. My attack bonus will increase by level except for levels 8, 12 and 16, my damage will increase by one per level with an extra +3 at levels 8, 12 and 16, my AC will increase by +1 per level until I run out of Int bonus (min +3). Special abilities increase my initiative, and my AC when fighting defensively. My feats at 7th, 9th and 11th will be Weapon Specialisition, Improved Critical and Spring Attack, but I haven't decided the order yet.


It would take some finagling, but Flowing monk seems like it would synergistize quite nicely with duellist.


xevious573 wrote:

My own 20th level build:

4 Fighter (Weapon Master)
1 Monk (Maneuver Master (preferred) or Martial Artist as alignment allows)
2 Aldori Swordlord
9 Duelist
2 more Aldori Sworldlord
Fill in the rest with either monk, fighter, aldori sword lord, or duelist.

Crane Style and the 4 levels swordlord remove the penalty from fighting defensively. Aldori swordlord gets you the dex to damage. Monk and Duelist open up Intelligence and Wisdom to AC. The cost is 1 point of base attack bonus and the penalty to piranha strike that causes but it does further boost the ac to pretty insane levels.

Thanks for this - a couple of things:

Is the dip into monk really worth it? It seems like this build would focus on Int and Dex, so wouldn't benefit much from a Wis bonus to AC. What do your stats look like?

I like the idea of removing the defensive fighting penalty entirely.


The_Scourge wrote:
It would take some finagling, but Flowing monk seems like it would synergistize quite nicely with duellist.

It does.

My build is very similar to RavingDork's, except that there's 2 levels of Flowing Monk in there, and I change out Mobility, Spring Attack, and the Step Up feats for Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp.

The principal is the same, I just like being able to knock people on their asses, take their weapons and kick them in the head when they are dumb enough to swing at me.


Ravingdork wrote:

Here's a build guide for you to follow, Critzible.

I liked her a lot, specially because she doesn't have any bizarre multiclasses (such as monk/ranger/etc). She uses a "custom" celestial armor (with the addition of glamered enchantment and greater AC bonus); I'd not thought possible to further improve on specific armors (or weapons for that matter) and tried to research the forums extensively for an answer for that. Would you be so kind as to point any FAQ or offical source allowing for that? I plan to run a Dervish magus soon and this may be a point of contention.

edit: Might be a typo, but she has Weapon Training (scimitars).
edit 2: How does she achieve that +12 Dex bonus while using the celestial armor? Does the Duelist Canny Defense apply as a flat bonus? I was under the impression it stack with the natural Dex bonus, limited by the armor's maximum Dex bonus.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Khelreddin

For 15 pt buy:

8 Str
16 Dex
10 Con
14 Int
12 Wis
10 Cha

For 20 pt buy:
same but 14 con

For 25 pt Buy
Decrease either str to 7 or cha to 8 and increase Dex to 18 and Con to 14 from 15 pt buy.

This is before racial adjustments for presumably human which will presumably go into dex. Also if you're feeling more traditional or I guess more worried about your early levels, you can dump Charisma instead of Str for these stats. Also my first 3 feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Sword), Weapon Finesse, and Piranha Strike (basically power attack but dex prereq instead). If I have to drop one of those for any reason (perhaps a different race then human or a human alternate racial ability) I'd drop the EWP and would use a rapier until I could get that feat later.

As for it's whether it's a worth while choice or not, I'm not certain. For one thing it makes it very easy to get the prerequisites for Crane style as it gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and you can take Dodge as the second bonus feat where at fighter 5th level gives you a reroll I believe for the weapon master archetype which while it's useful doesn't make getting into Crane Style any easier. In addition it gives you better base saving throws for all 3 saving throw types (at the level you get the monk level, +6 Base Fort, +3 Base Ref, +3 Base Will). Maneuver Master Monk doesn't actually specify what type of weapon you need to have if you use the disarm or trip maneuvers so if somehow you pick of the feats for those maneuvers either through more monk levels where you can pick up the improved disarm or trip without the need for combat expertise or through actually just taking these feats, prereqs and all.

Another thing to note about Aldori Swordlord Prestige class is that it doesn't actually have a Base Attack prereq so the monk level is not actually putting that off at all though it is putting off the Duelist Prestige class by 1 level but you'll get by.

Finally, I don't think fighters would mind getting a Wisdom and Intelligence Boosting Headband. In this build, it is both a boost to Will saves and AC without armor and you will be without armor (eventually) in this build.

Silver Crusade

CRB wrote:-

'Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.'

It remains an Int bonus, and armour does not restrict that.

It says it adds Int bonus to Dex bonus to AC to show that it's stacks. If it just made the Dex bonus bigger there would be no need for the last line.

Plus, any high level duelist will hit her armour's Dex limit just using Dex. If the Int bonus just made the Dex bonus bigger it would have little or no value.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

CRB wrote:-

'Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.'

It remains an Int bonus, and armour does not restrict that.

It says it adds Int bonus to Dex bonus to AC to show that it's stacks. If it just made the Dex bonus bigger there would be no need for the last line.

Plus, any high level duelist will hit her armour's Dex limit just using Dex. If the Int bonus just made the Dex bonus bigger it would have little or no value.

Um It does add to Dex bonus and thus is limited by max dex. and no it's not worthless, pick up bracers of armor or silken ceremonial armor. Yes a Duelist does need to eventually go without armor. Sorry bro, just the way it is.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rune wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Here's a build guide for you to follow, Critzible.

I liked her a lot, specially because she doesn't have any bizarre multiclasses (such as monk/ranger/etc). She uses a "custom" celestial armor (with the addition of glamered enchantment and greater AC bonus); I'd not thought possible to further improve on specific armors (or weapons for that matter) and tried to research the forums extensively for an answer for that. Would you be so kind as to point any FAQ or offical source allowing for that? I plan to run a Dervish magus soon and this may be a point of contention.

edit: Might be a typo, but she has Weapon Training (scimitars).
edit 2: How does she achieve that +12 Dex bonus while using the celestial armor? Does the Duelist Canny Defense apply as a flat bonus? I was under the impression it stack with the natural Dex bonus, limited by the armor's maximum Dex bonus.

Yes, it's a typo. Earlier versions of her had her wielding a scimitar. I've since corrected it. Thanks for pointing it out.

The +12 accounts for her Intelligence modifier. I do not personally believe it is effected by armor limitations.

There are no rules prohibiting you from adding to or modifying specific magical arms and armor therefore, GM permitting, it is perfectly legal to do so. The fact that this has been done in published material by the game's developers supports this notion as well.


I understand, thank you for the clarifications. I was specially keen on understanding her build mechanics since I'm rebuilding a fighter 6/rogue 6 BBEG from one of the APs into a fighter 6/swordlord 1/duelist 5 to provide my party with a little extra challenge. I still managed to cram both ripostes on there, so it should make for an interesting fight (gotta a fighter and a rogue who love tag-teaming).

Silver Crusade

xevious573 wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

CRB wrote:-

'Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.'

It remains an Int bonus, and armour does not restrict that.

It says it adds Int bonus to Dex bonus to AC to show that it's stacks. If it just made the Dex bonus bigger there would be no need for the last line.

Plus, any high level duelist will hit her armour's Dex limit just using Dex. If the Int bonus just made the Dex bonus bigger it would have little or no value.

Um It does add to Dex bonus and thus is limited by max dex. and no it's not worthless, pick up bracers of armor or silken ceremonial armor. Yes a Duelist does need to eventually go without armor. Sorry bro, just the way it is.

So what she gains in AC from Int bonus she loses from armour bonus? Nah!

'...adds 1 point of Intelligent bonus per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class' could be read that it makes the Dex bonus bigger, or it could be read that the Int bonus stacks with, and does not replace, the Dex bonus to AC.

If it made the Dex bonus bigger then then there would be no need to have a rule saying that if denied her Dex bonus she also loses the Int bonus! This line shows that the two bonuses are seperate things.

Also, conceptually, Dex bonus to AC is capped by armour type because heavier armour resticts agile movement more than lighter armour. Canny Defence uses your Intelligence to predict an opponents attacks in order to get hit less often. It doesn't make you more agile, it lets you use the agility you do have more efficiently, with fewer wasted movements.

In every way apart from the ambiguity of the wording of one sentence, it's clear that armour does not restrict Int bonus to AC!

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It isn't clear that is the intention actually. It says it adds it to your Dexterity Bonus. If it didn't add it to your dexterity bonus and was just a bonus to your AC it wouldn't mention Dexterity Bonus at all.

HeroLab runs it the way I see it. In all honesty, I don't see a reason to question this bit.. There are plenty of ways to keep an armor bonus without worrying about Max Dex. I have already mentioned two solutions.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Xevious is right here Malachi. That's always been the way it's been, both by RAW and RAI. They specifically add that INT bonus to your DEX bonus so that anything that affects your DEX (max armor bonuses, etc.) affects the ability. The line about how anything affecting the Dex bonus affects the INT bonus is additional clarification. They do that a lot, just ask SKR or JB, they've said so on many occasions. The INT bonus is added to your DEX bonus, not directly to your AC. Anything that limits the one, limits and similarly impacts the other. SAy you have an 18 INT and an 18 DEX. Your DEX bonus is plus 4, and you have enough levels in Duelist to add your full INT bonus. That additional plus 4 from INT is being added to your DEX Bonus, just like it says in the ability, which is then added to whatever else. So you have a new, modified DEX bonus of plus 8 to AC, not a +4 DEX bonus and a +4 INT bonus to AC.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:
Xevious is right here Malachi. That's always been the way it's been, both by RAW and RAI. They specifically add that INT bonus to your DEX bonus so that anything that affects your DEX (max armor bonuses, etc.) affects the ability. The line about how anything affecting the Dex bonus affects the INT bonus is additional clarification. They do that a lot, just ask SKR or JB, they've said so on many occasions. The INT bonus is added to your DEX bonus, not directly to your AC. Anything that limits the one, limits and similarly impacts the other. SAy you have an 18 INT and an 18 DEX. Your DEX bonus is plus 4, and you have enough levels in Duelist to add your full INT bonus. That additional plus 4 from INT is being added to your DEX Bonus, just like it says in the ability, which is then added to whatever else. So you have a new, modified DEX bonus of plus 8 to AC, not a +4 DEX bonus and a +4 INT bonus to AC.

I'm shocked!

Do you have any links to devs ruling on this?

I've already called out the ambiguity. If the line can be read either way (Int+Dex both adding to AC) we then have to use other means to determine which is the correct way to interpret it.

We know that wearing armour restricts the max Dex bonus to AC. We also know that armour does not, in any way, restrict Int bonus to AC.

While we know from reading Canny Defence that Int bonus increases AC, Int bonuses do not actually make you more agile!

As for Canny Defence being useful, what's the point of gaining a bonus to AC which you can't use unless you lower your AC by having to throw away your cool magical armour and start again from scratch? Why would the ability be written if that was how it worked?

I've just hit third level on the way to becoming a duelist. My Dex of 20 is already at the limit of my studded leather, and I'm looking forward to getting that mithral shirt and that belt of Dex+2. By the time I hit seventh level and my first level of duelist, if Canny Defence works as you say, it will do absolutely nothing!

Duelists are restricted to light armour if they want to do duelist stuff. If the designers wanted them to go without armour they should just say so, and give the whole Int bonus to AC at first level! Canny Defence would use the phrase 'Your Int bonus increases your Dex bonus to AC', and leave no ambiguity or the need to say 'if you lose your Dex bonus to AC you lose your Int bonus as well'!

Looking forward to clicking on those links you're going to post...!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Be aware that it's a refresh of older editions, like 3.5, where Int bonuses were Dodge bonuses, i.e. just like Dex bonuses, but seperate.

Now, it's calling them out strictly as modifers to your Dex bonus.

It shouldn't be a problem. Light armor (celestial armor) goes all the way to +8 Dex. If you have fighter levels, it's even higher. It won't be a problem until you are popping a 28+ Dex, at which point you can probably afford bracers and chuck the armor entirely as soon as its feasible.

The key point here isn't the ultimate Dex mod. The key is how quickly AC can go up. And with int and dex both contributing, it can rise very quickly, indeed.

==Aelryinth

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Here's one good link where some other knowledgeable players discussed it:
Duelist thread #1.

Also not to belabor the point, but the ability specifically says:
"Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus."

Not to AC, but to DEX bonus to modify AC.

I tried to find more references on this, but apparently most people have found this to be clearly written enough that it did not require FAQ or Eratta clarification.
I'll continue diggin for you though in case I stumble across something.

Silver Crusade

I've just checked out the 3.5 DMG and the duelist Canny Defence uses the same wording. Wording that made believe that Int and Dex bonuses added to AC as discrete entities, BTW!

There is one, special armour in the game that does what Celestial Armour does. There is no generic armour special ability to add +4 to max Dex of any mithral armour. I certain can't guarantee that I can get some Celestial Armour in my Kingmaker campaign. Are we really suggesting that the duelist class, or Canny Defence, relies on every duelist getting Celestial Armour?

As for AC going through the stratosphere, hardly! When I take my 7th, 8th and 9th character levels I'll also take my 1st, 2nd and 3rd levels of duelist. My Dex (with a magic +2 belt) will be 22, maxing out my mithral shirt. My Int of 15 will become 16 at 8th level, so that at 9th level I'll get +3 to my AC from by Int bonus. That +3 isn't going to break the game, especially when any more increases to my Dex won't increase my AC because the max Dex for a mithral shirt is +6.

Now you're trying to tell me that Canny Defence won't increase her AC at all! That, in order to use Canny Defense I have to throw away my mithral shirt and it's +4 armour bonus to buy bracers? Or is the DM ex machina going to have Celestial Armour land at my feet?

I contend that the reading of the rule that results in the Int bonus increasing the Dex bonus is flawed, and that the reading of the rule that both Dex and Int bonuses add to AC is rational.

I'd like links to devs who say otherwise.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

I would also suggest clicking the FAQ button on this thread if you want to try and drum up some official clarification, since they discuss the same issue and already have a few clicks on it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

per normal game rules, if you can afford it, there's some place that sells it.

So, yes, you can get, or make, celestial armor in the standard game. nOt making it available is the contravention of the rules.

And it is a GIVEN that at some point your combined bonus is going to outgrow your armor. It just matters on when.

And it's a good problem to have. Gee, your Dex bonus is so high, you're better off NOT WEARING ARMOR.

I fail to see that as a bad thing! Remember that at higher levels, your Int bonus will be +11 over starting, which means a minimum of +6, stacking on your Dex, which is likely your highest stat. It's going to outgrow any amor, in the end, and you'll be traipsing around in stylish silks while the rest of the party slogs along in weighty armor.

Go with the style, dude!

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Ssalarn, thanks for the link!

When you add numbers together you get higher numbers. It doesn't matter which order the numbers are in. So, adding 3 to 5 to 13 gets you 21. Adding +3 (Int) to +5 (Dex) to 13 (armour bonus+10) gets you 21. Adding your Int bonus(+3) to your Dex bonus (+5) to AC 13 gets you 21. They still stay separate bonuses! That's how I always read Canny Defence.

If it said that you increase your Dex bonus to AC by an amount equal to your Int bonus it would not be ambiguous. It would still be stupid. How can being smarter be restricted by armour? Why would Canny Defence be so useless?

I still haven't seen why your interpretation has more weight than mine.

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:

per normal game rules, if you can afford it, there's some place that sells it.

So, yes, you can get, or make, celestial armor in the standard game. nOt making it available is the contravention of the rules.

And it is a GIVEN that at some point your combined bonus is going to outgrow your armor. It just matters on when.

And it's a good problem to have. Gee, your Dex bonus is so high, you're better off NOT WEARING ARMOR.

I fail to see that as a bad thing! Remember that at higher levels, your Int bonus will be +11 over starting, which means a minimum of +6, stacking on your Dex, which is likely your highest stat. It's going to outgrow any amor, in the end, and you'll be traipsing around in stylish silks while the rest of the party slogs along in weighty armor.

Go with the style, dude!

==Aelryinth

What do you mean, 'my Int bonus will be +11 over starting'?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Aelryinth wrote:

per normal game rules, if you can afford it, there's some place that sells it.

So, yes, you can get, or make, celestial armor in the standard game. nOt making it available is the contravention of the rules.

And it is a GIVEN that at some point your combined bonus is going to outgrow your armor. It just matters on when.

And it's a good problem to have. Gee, your Dex bonus is so high, you're better off NOT WEARING ARMOR.

I fail to see that as a bad thing! Remember that at higher levels, your Int bonus will be +11 over starting, which means a minimum of +6, stacking on your Dex, which is likely your highest stat. It's going to outgrow any amor, in the end, and you'll be traipsing around in stylish silks while the rest of the party slogs along in weighty armor.

Go with the style, dude!

==Aelryinth

Exactly, the Duelist is meant to be your Princess Bride style fencer fighting in a silk shirt and looking damn good doing it, not a heavily armored paladin daintily wielding a rapier for some reason....

Silver Crusade

A mithral shirt can be worn under normal clothes. I'm still limited to light armour to use the class abilities; I'm not going to be traipsing around in full plate!

I'll look cool anyway. This doesn't mean that Canny Defence is designed to be either useless, or to get you to ditch that oh-so-heavy mithral shirt!


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I agree with Malachi. If the Intelligence bonus is limited like the Dexterity bonus to AC, then this is a useless class ability, as it will never give you the defense of regular fighter emphasizing Dexterity.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would still say just some bracers of armor or use silken ceremonial armor from Ultimate Combat. Both of these do not have max dexterity and both can be get quite high up there in AC with enchantments.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Ssalarn, thanks for the link!

When you add numbers together you get higher numbers. It doesn't matter which order the numbers are in. So, adding 3 to 5 to 13 gets you 21. Adding +3 (Int) to +5 (Dex) to 13 (armour bonus+10) gets you 21. Adding your Int bonus(+3) to your Dex bonus (+5) to AC 13 gets you 21. They still stay separate bonuses! That's how I always read Canny Defence.

If it said that you increase your Dex bonus to AC by an amount equal to your Int bonus it would not be ambiguous. It would still be stupid. How can being smarter be restricted by armour? Why would Canny Defence be so useless?

I still haven't seen why your interpretation has more weight than mine.

Because it doesn't say you add your INT to your Armor Class, it says you add your INT to your DEX bonus to modify AC.

PIcture it like this: Your AC is DEX+ Armor Bonus+ Shield+ Deflection + Dodge, right? Maybe with one or two other things like natural armor thrown in there but let's stay on track.
Canny Defense doesn't change it to DEX+ Armor Bonus+ Shield+ Deflection + Dodge +INT, it adds the INT bonus to the DEX bonus , before it modifies your AC. So anything that impacts that DEX bonus, impacts your Canny Defense bonus. It's the reason it doesn't just say, add one point of your INT modifier to your AC. They intentionally tied this ability to your DEX bonus for thematic and mechanical reasons, both to rein in your AC and keep you within the same general strata as the other party members (you can outstrip pretty much everyone except a defense focused paladin in full plate while just wearing silk armor or bracers, and even then...) and because the Duelist is supposed to be running around in light to no armor.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:-

'Canny Defense doesn't change it to DEX+ Armor Bonus+ Shield+ Deflection + Dodge +INT, it adds the INT bonus to the DEX bonus , before it modifies your AC.'

This is where we disagree! I've explained how I get my understanding of Canny Defence, and I (now) understand the 'other' understanding.

But, I've also shown why my understanding of it makes sense beyond a poorly worded rule, both in game terms (it's useless) and on terms of concept (how can armour restrict Int, or how does being smart make you more agile?).

Can you explain to me how your understanding of Canny Defence makes sense in those terms?

You imply that, if unchecked by the max Dex of armour, that adding Int bonus to AC is unbalancing. I don't see it. Duelists are already restricted to light armour to use their class abilities. They can't use shields or off-hand weapons (even though buckler or main gauche would suit a duelist). I don't see them outstripping other melee PCs in terms of AC. Assuming that every warrior gets the best armour type to suit his Dex bonus, a mithral shirt would give +10 (+4 armour, +6 Dex), a mithral breastplate would get you +11 (+6 armour, +5 Dex), and mithral full plate would get you +12 (+9 armour, +3 Dex).

Denying the duelist his Int bonus to AC (and that is what you're doing) doesn't balance anything! The others can still use a shield! The Int bonus barely puts the duelist on a par.


Khelreddin wrote:
Mr. Dork - I was reading this thread a bit ago and came back on to ask for good ideas for a duelist build. I like yours quite a bit.

Here's my attempt. Build assumes Ophiduan is allowed. If not, Undine is almost as good.

Spoiler:
Unarmed Fighter 1 / MoMS QMonk 1 / UF +1 / Monk +3 / Inquisitor 3 / Duelist 9 / Shadowdancer 2

Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8 (initial, pre-race 25 PB)
Str 8, Dex 16 (22), Con 12 (14), Int 16 (22), Wis 20 (26), Cha 8 (level 20, pre-race)
Undine: Str 6, Dex 18 (24), Con 12 (14), Int 16 (22), Wis 22 (28), Cha 8
Ophiduan: Str 8, Dex 18 (24), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 22 (28), Cha 6

HP: xxx (11d10 +9d8 +60)
AC: 51 (10 +4 armor +7 dex +6 int +11 monk +1 insight +6 natural +5 deflect +1 dodge)
*+7 (8?) fighting defensively
Saves: Fortitude +22, Reflex +25, Will +25 (+2 vs. enchantment)
BAB +17; CMB +17 (27 unarmed; +4 trip); CMD 51

Feats:
1 Improved Unarmed Strike [Fighter]
1 Crane Style [Fighter]
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Crane Wing [Monk]
2 Stunning Fist (Fort DC 29; 9/day) [Monk]
3 Snake Style [Fighter]
3 Dodge
4 Snake Fang [Monk]
5 Mobility
7 Combat Expertise
9 Improved Trip
9 Tandem Trip [Inquisitor]
11 Greater Trip
13 Lookout
13 Combat Reflexes [Duelist]
15 Monastic Legacy
17 Crane Riposte
18 Deflect Arrows [Duelist]
19 Coordinated Charge
Feats Wishlist: Vicious Stomp, Fury’s Fall

Class: Stunning Fist (Stun 1 round or Fatigue), Evasion, AC bonus, Still Mind, Ki Pool (11 points), True Strike (1 ki point), Fast Movement +10 ft, Maneuver Training, Stern Gaze (+1 intimidate/sense motive), Monster Lore (+Wis to ID creatures), Travel Domain (+10 speed; 12/day ), Judgement 1/day, Orisons, Cunning Initiative (+Wis to init), Detect Alignment, Track +1, Solo Tactics, Canny Defense, Parry, Riposte, Precise Strike (+9 damage), Improved Reaction +4, Enhanced Mobility, Grace (+2 Reflex), Acrobatic Charge, Elaborate Defense, No retreat, Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision +30 ft, Improved Evasion?

Key gear:
Amulet of Mighty Fists (Guided)
+X Guided Rope Dart?
Monk’s Robe
Mage armor (wand, from ally, whatever...)
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Ring of Deflection +5 and Featherfalling
Cloak of Resistance +5 and Minor Displacement
Winged Boots

Uses guided AoMF to become a Wis>Dex>Int>>Con>>Str=Cha build. Can trip impressively thanks to Tandem Trip and solo tactics. Was so feat starved I didn't even have room for Fury's Fall. Initiative is adding the two highest stats. AC is super high especially w/ Crane, and Snake Fang makes attacking him very painful. A Guided Rope Dart would be a good way to, combined w/ unarmed, attack a wide area.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:-

'Canny Defense doesn't change it to DEX+ Armor Bonus+ Shield+ Deflection + Dodge +INT, it adds the INT bonus to the DEX bonus , before it modifies your AC.'

This is where we disagree! I've explained how I get my understanding of Canny Defence, and I (now) understand the 'other' understanding.

But, I've also shown why my understanding of it makes sense beyond a poorly worded rule, both in game terms (it's useless) and on terms of concept (how can armour restrict Int, or how does being smart make you more agile?).

Can you explain to me how your understanding of Canny Defence makes sense in those terms?

You imply that, if unchecked by the max Dex of armour, that adding Int bonus to AC is unbalancing. I don't see it. Duelists are already restricted to light armour to use their class abilities. They can't use shields or off-hand weapons (even though buckler or main gauche would suit a duelist). I don't see them outstripping other melee PCs in terms of AC. Assuming that every warrior gets the best armour type to suit his Dex bonus, a mithral shirt would give +10 (+4 armour, +6 Dex), a mithral breastplate would get you +11 (+6 armour, +5 Dex), and mithral full plate would get you +12 (+9 armour, +3 Dex).

Denying the duelist his Int bonus to AC (and that is what you're doing) doesn't balance anything! The others can still use a shield! The Int bonus barely puts the duelist on a par.

Couple things here:

1) The original version of the Duelist didn't even get to wear armor while using any of his abilities.
2) Duelist is INT heavy. You can take stat boosting items for DEX and INT, ignore your other stats and run around in a Robe of the Archmagi, Bracers of Armor (Which go up to +8), or Silken Ceremonial Armor like a boss. All with absolutely no penalty to skills (which you have more of because of your high INT), or movement. Your AC is just as good, and yet you've got plenty of skills and absolutely no armor hindrance. That's a big deal. Plus, a Duelist gains Elaborate Defense, which provides an additional +3 Dodge Bonus to AC. With Elaborate Defense, Canny Defense, and the Crane Style feat chain, you have a highly mobile, nigh unstrikable character.


I would go 8 lvls of Master of Many styles, 5 lvls of Magus and 7 lvls of duelist. This makes some interesting synergy.
You can mix 3 styles, where I would choose crane, snake and djinni. Crane lets you deflect blows. Snake lets you make attack of oppertunities when you miss, and djinni style mixes well with the magus. Djinni style gives you your wisdom modifier as a bonus to all your lightning die rolls. This works perfectly with an elemental fist shocking grasp spellstrike. Finally we have the duelist lvls to make you harder to hit and parry and riposte


Also, for what it's worth, I think a Dawnflower Dervish Bard 20, or DD Bard w/ a small dip into Unarmed Fighter or MoMS Monk to facillitate getting Crane Style/Wing is a much better "duelist" than the actual prestige class. Even includes a use for charisma, so your swordsman is rewarded for being dashing.


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Thanks for the build ideas, all!

On the AC question - I really want Malachi to be right, as I'd like my duelist to be as unhittable as possible, but I just can't read the rule that way. Canny Defense clearly says that you can add to your Dex bonus, and Dex bonus is the very thing limited by armor.

I agree that it doesn't make perfect sense, but perhaps one way to think about it is that with heavier armor (or any armor compared to none), you may be able to use your Int to anticipate what an opponent is going to do, but the armor hampers your ability to react to this information in time.

I'd welcome an official ruling on this, but at this point the text seems pretty clear.

Silver Crusade

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1.) They changed it so that duelists can wear light armour. They use the phrase 'when wearing light or no armour' on enough of the abilities to show they meant it. They also left the offending wording ambiguous. They should change to be certainly 'Int mod increases Dex mod' OR 'add Int mod as a dodge bonus to AC'.

2.) You're describing the duelist as a fighter wearing little or no armour but still being hard to hit. We all agree on that concept. But, since the class is effectively limited to light armour and no shield, there must be some game mechanic to reflect that she is hard to hit. Hence: Canny Defence!

If it works as I think it does, then it does it's job. If it works as you think it does, then it's not fit for purpose. Your way results in one of two things:-
a.) Canny Defence adds nothing to AC because your Dex has already hit the armour's max Dex limit
OR
b.) The duelist must choose armour of progressively lower armour bonus to AC to accommodate the increase in effective Dex bonus, thus not increasing AC at all!

The way you read it, Canny Defence is not fit for purpose. The way I read it, it works as intended and still you're limited to light armour.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Couldn't have said it better myself, Malachi.

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