The_Scourge's page

Hello all,
I'm planning on running AoW set in Golarion soon, and after reading a lot of threads on Three Faces of Evil, I've decided to modify things so as not to overwhelm my party of three.

To convert AoW to Golarion I've switched the Ebon Triad deities to Zon-Kuthon (Hextor), Urgathoa (Vecna), and Lamashtu (Erythnul), and set the campaign in Cheliax.

Zon-Kuthon being the god of pain and torture gave me the idea to have Jieran Wieras, The Priest of Heironeus (Now Priest of Asmodeus) be the secret identity of the Leader of the Cult of Zon-Kuthon, since his whole deal is self-flagellation and getting others to inflict pain on themselves.

Now, splitting up the lairs of the Ebon Triad is going to be mostly to keep my three players from delving too deep too fast and getting squashed. So the Citadel of Zon-Kuthon is secretly in the basement of the church of Asmodeus, the Lair of the Grimlocks (maybe Morlocks, haven't decided if I'll make that switch) will be in an abandoned mine outside the city, and the Temple of Urgathoa will still be in the deeps of Dourstone Mine.

What I'm blanking on is a way to get the players to investigate the Zon-Kuthon and Lamsahtu areas first.

I've nicked some ideas from this thread regarding Smenk not actually getting a tour of Dourstone's opperation and sending his flunky in in secret, who then turns up dead.
So far for links I have the blackmail material being delivered to Smenk via one of the Zon-Kuthon/Asmodeus cultists, and his flunky's head showing up having been hacked off with primitive stone weapons.

But I need some more concrete links, in case the PCs don't talk to Smenk, or miss the more subtle clues.
Any ideas?

The "partial charge" action doesn't exist in Pathfinder, it's all lumped together in the Charge rules. Here's the relevant paragraph.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

So your interpretation is correct.

Did anything change for the Unchained Rogue to allow for ranged rogues to work?

She had a smudge of ink on her chin and on the fingers of her right hand, and she wore a name tag that had the store logo at the top and HI, MY NAME IS SHEILA below it.

-Dead Beat, Dresden Files Book 7 by Jim Butcher (e-book)

My paperback copy has this instead:

"Keep it up and I won't need to make Foresics pick your teeth out of that wall behind you."

Ratfolk could make a good counterpart to Dwarves if you don't mind them being a "villain race"

Both are solid underground races with heavy ties to community and tradition. They both have strong mercantile focuses and desire to accumulate wealth.

*casts raise thread*

I'd also like to know the answer to this. Couldn't find it answered anywhere else.

Can I use Combat Style Masterto use pummeling style to attack and then switch to dragon style for the damage rolls?

Can an Urban Barbarian use Use Magic Device to cast from scrolls and wands in a Controlled Rage?

Controlled Rage (Ex)

When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage.

While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

The bolded section in Rage is the kicker. You can use the skill, but does using the skill still require patience and concentration?

Combat Patrol

These should help
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

Boots of the Cat are also a great way to be virtually immune to falling damage.
20 damage is a small price to pay to be able to Iron Man drop from orbit.

34. Royal Dire Rat Catcher- gotta keep those pesky buggers out of the dungeons

35. Royal Simulacrum- For dangerous appearances and visits from the-

36. Royal Mother-In-Law- or Queen Mum, whose job it is to criticize everything the king does and constantly tell the Queen she'd be better off with that nice prince from the next kingdom over.

I've played with a Barbarian that rp'd his rage as a literal spirit of anger that possessed him. Raging was when he let the spirit cut loose and go to town on whoever was around. Rage cycling was him regaining control, re-aiming the spirit and letting it off the chain again.

The Tetori Monk's inescapable grasp ability supports this.

This kind of thing has turned into a bit of a running joke in my group.

We were fighting a dragon riding sorceress and she pulled some shenanigans (I honestly don't even remember what it was anymore) and since we're all really familiar with the game mechanics we were wondering amongst ourselves how she was doing it. Without skipping a beat the GM announced "She has an ability." and kept on running.

So now, if an NPC pulls a trick out of his hat "Oh ****! He's got an ability"

Nope. The trip special quality is mostly a waste of ink. All it does is allow you to drop the weapon instead of falling prone yourself if you fail the trip attempt by more than 10.

You can trip with any weapon. longsword, club, blade-boot, doesn't matter.
Here's the full lowdown

Undead Halflings
Or Velociraptors

You're reading it right, but the major benefit of Strangler over Rapid Grappler is you can get Strangler at level 3 (2 if you take combat trick for it), whereas RG isn't obtainable for a rogue until lvl 12 (pesky +9 bab requirement).

Thanks very much Solspiral. I had priced it based on a couple items that grant bite attacks, so I'm not sure if upping the price is the way to go, and there is a line in there about improving existing bite attacks, but yeah, I really love the item, just couldn't think of anything to give it extra oomf without making it silly.

You missed mine hiding at the bottom of page 13. If you don't mind good sir.

Here's mine, I'd love some feedback:

Jaws of Reptilian Thrashing

Aura Faint Transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot Head; Price 12,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This iron harness is studded with rune etched crocodile teeth, and when worn over the lower jaw, forces the wearer’s face into a ghastly grin.
The wearer gains a bite attack as a primary natural attack. This attack deals 1d4 points of piercing damage for a Medium wearer or 1d3 points of damage for a Small wearer. If the wearer already has a bite attack, the damage of that bite attack increases by one step.
In addition, when grappling a foe of its size or smaller, the wearer can perform a death roll upon successfully maintaining the grapple. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The wearer inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wonderous Item, Lockjaw; Cost 6000 gp

Bruno is correct in all things. Huzzaah!

I had a player with a Kensai Magus who had Spell perfection Vampiric Touch and a vicious weapon. The Yo-yoing hitpoints were a pain for him to keep track of but it was rather effective.

A friend of mine is doing the MS1/PaladinX build right now and it's working out fantastic.

Grit for Cha to damage really keeps his damage up when not fighting evil, and when he does fight evil, Hoo boy! it gets nuts.

Yes, you can still make a regular grapple attempt, but it takes a standard action to do so.

I've been looking at several combat maneuver using characters recently, A Tetori Monk, an Oracle of Battle Sunder Monkey, a Tripping Lore Master, a Dirty Trick and Steal Maneuver Master, and I got to looking at the support maneuvers have gotten since the release of core. You can do a lot more with maneuvers now than ever before, between maneuver focused archetypes and feats like Ki throw, Spinning throw, Body Shield etc. there's some mighty fun things you can do with maneuvers.

What else do people want to use their CMB for? What new maneuvers or new uses of old maneuvers can people think of?

Personally, I'd love to see some kind of maneuver for "hitching a ride" on big monsters, Shadow of the Colossus style, climbing to their weak spot and giving them what-for.

Or a use of grapple that lets you pull some more unorthodox wrestling moves, suplexing, power bombing, whatever that luchador move is called where they spin around your shoulders then throw you ten feet.

Dirty Trick and Steal need some love in the different uses department, maybe a way to kick dust in your opponents face as you move in for the kill or snatch something off an enemy's belt and immediately toss it to a companion.

What do you guys think?

But what supports your interpretation? Or any other except mine.

The_Scourge:

Right, from grapple itself..which you earlier said is being overwritten by the 'specific' from Grab. You cant have it both ways. This is the door I walked through.

The 'specific' from grab does NOT state you get damage + normal grapple actions. It does not state you get damage+damage. It does not state you get damage+move. It does not state you get damage+pin.

So: what DOES it state? You get damage. You said the specific overrides the general. THAT is the specific.

Note: at this point I am playing devil's advocate. I have my own different interpretation which you already rejected.

- Gauss

The specific states

-it states that you get said damage on each successful grapple check. Part of a successful grapple check is applying one of those options.

With your interpretation, a creature with grab can not move, pin, or tie up (for higher int creatures with grab) since it doesn't specifically state you can do those things in grab. Making grab super extra worse.

Note to your note: I figured as much from your farscape quoting earlier. Still needs to be hammered out for future finders of this thread. And for Tetori monks everywhere

The_Scourge:

Actually you are reinterpreting it more than I am. You are outright applying text that does not exist. NOTHING in the text states you are getting damage AND damage.

Now, my 'reinterpretation' as you call it is just my attempt at trying to explain it to you. As I read it it gets exactly one thing and one thing only...DAMAGE. Not damage x2. Not damage +move, not damage +pin. Just, damage. Nothing there even states it gets the standard options.

You are the one giving it extra options. Personally, I believe the game designers did not intend to reduce a creatures ability to pin or move so I would give it both OPTIONS but...by RAW, it have neither of those options because Grab does not say it does.

You opened the door..I just stepped through.

- Gauss

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Grab adds the damage of the attack that established the grapple automatically. Nothing in grab stops you from pinning moving etc. Dealing damage twice is probably the least horrible thing a monster could do. Tigers don't stop killing their prey when they drag them off into the woods.

In fact, it doesn't state you CAN choose the damage option either. I read it that it is either it has no choice (defactor forced to choose damage option) or that it has a choice but the text is just pointing out how the damage works.

You are giving it something extra that is not in the text...double damage.

- Gauss

Your interpretation requires much more reinterpretation than mine does. If either of your explanations were correct there would need to be further text for evidence. Mine works without such text as each successful grapple check explains everything.

Except they have to make all 3or 4 rolls not one check that depending on size may be even easier than attacking to pull off especially with the +5 if they don't escape on their turn.

Yep. Players should fear being grappled. Without it, it is never a good idea for a monster to grapple against a party.

Scourge you do realize just how brutal your making things with construct if you go that route allowing them 3 damages off one roll each round

Quite. Otherwise, grappling is ALWAYS the worst option for monsters. While it sits and grapples one PC the rest of the party gathers round and begins the curb stomping process.

It's no worse than something with 3 or 4 primary natural attack full attacking.

And yes I missremembered Rapid Grappler.

The_Scourge:

You are correct that specific trumps general. But specific MUST state that it is doing something different.

Either:

A) Creatures with grab have no choice on which option they perform (move, damage, pin) because they must select 'damage'.

OR

B) Creatures with grab have a choice on which option, the text is just reinforcing the damage option with some extra verbage.

OR

C) Creatures with grab have a choice on which option they perform (move, damage, pin) IN ADDITION to damage.

Nothing in the Grab text states they get C. So either it is A or B. Since the text stated 'conduct the grab normally' then I believe it means it is B.

- Gauss

f the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Doesn't say you have to choose the damage option

Quandry:

The problem with the 'paradox' is that you are actually creating it since you are not performing the maintain action first. THAT is what creates the paradox.

Anyhow, the rules do not explicitly state it, you are welcome to play as you like. In my games, if you do not use your maintain action first..you are not maintaining. I believe a number of people run it that way.

- Gauss

You run into issues when Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler come into play. Because then you can attack (or full full attack with RG) AND maintain, no questions asked.

What monsterhas Rake and Constrict? Is that really a relevant scenario to discuss?

I mean, maybe one DOES, but how did that become relevant here?

Behir

And eidolons if they're built that way.

Just for arguments sake :P

Round 1:
Make attack (assume success)
Apply damage
If you have grab with that limb make grappple check (assume success)
If you have constrict, apply constrict damage

Round 2+:
Make grapple check to maintain (assume success)
Choose option from grapple list (move pin etc.)
Apply result
Apply damage from limb (that is grappling) (due to grab)
If you have constrict apply damage from constrict
If you have rake, make rake attacks

- Gauss

My additions are bolded

The_Scourge:

I did not say it was in the rules on constrict. I said that section (ie: sentance) is ABOUT constrict. The section of grab you quoted was dealing with constrict (at least in part). You cannot ignore the entirety of the grapple rules that grab uses.

- Gauss

The general rule about rules is Specific Trumps General. Always has been.

The general grapple rules are indeed changed when grab gets involved.

Lets just post the whole thing here shall we:

Grab (Ex)

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.

No problem here.

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

Here's where things get sticky, because this:

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.

is refering to the previous paragraph. Otherwise the whole thing makes no sense.

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Here we see that without constrict it deals the damage that established the hold (bite or claw in the case of our Tiger) but if it was say, a Giant constrictor snake, it would deal its bite damage as well as its constrict.

Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line.

The rest is once again n problem.

You see where I'm coming from now?

The_Scourge wrote:

Also: you can't rake on a pounce. You need to be maintaining, not initiating.

nothing about maintain. your target needs to already be grappled at the beginning of your turn.

that can be because THEY initiated a grapple against you, and now your turn's coming up.
which makes sense, grappling a lion/tiger doesn't seem like a walk in the park.

A situation I didn't consider. But my point still stands about pounce.

Edit after your edit: My mistake.

Check my link again. That's right from Grab. Saying if you constrict you deal constrict damage as well as grab damage. If you do not constrict (whic can only happen if you don't Have constrict) you only do grab damage.

As far as Rake goes this:

In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.

I can see is being interpreted either way. Free could imply you get those as a free action on top of whatever you do to maintain the grapple but I could also see it being interpreted as Quandary says.

Also: you can't rake on a pounce. You need to be maintaining, not initiating.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

It really is.

Immune, short of Freedom of Movement not totally. Even being bigger just makes you harder to grapple.

Liberating command, grease etc. help with escaping, but you still have to beat their CMD to escape.

There's nothing to support that.
Grab States

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

bolded is mine. If you choose the damage option you deal damage for grab AND from choosing that option.

If they hit you get three attempts to *Initiate* a grapple.

And yes you do extra damage with the attack that initiated for every subsequent successful check to maintain the grapple no matter what you do (move, pin, damage, etc.)

One of my players brought up the idea of using the Drag combat manouver to move a comrade away from an enemy and toward the cleric. Normally, moving out of a threatened area provokes, but using the Drag combat maneuver without Greater Drag doesn't cause the moved target to provoke. Is this a legitimate tactic? Is there a way to willingly let the combat manouver happen (like with willingly failing a save against a spell) or would the Dragger still have to beat the Dragged's CMD?

Especially considering if the monster is pouring all that effort into on grappled PC, the rest of the party has free reign to gather round and begin the curbstomping.

Thanks very much Sean. It's so great having a dev team active in the community for exactly this kind of thing.

...Yes, and that's Awesome

[Edit]Damn, jumped the gun. I reread solo tactics. Your allies need to meet the prereqs for the feat. So if you have other orc pcs raging then it works.

Ahh, I see now. I was thinking constricting was a choice making the second statement qualify the first. Now I realize that This:

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

So grab always deals damage when you make a successful grapple check unless you're using the -20 chunk of the ability.

And this is simplified grapple rules. How did anyone keep this straight in 3.5?

Note that the snake has only one attack and that is occupied, so it can't actually use the damage action. A tiger or other creature with multiple attacks, however, could take one additional attack as the damage action.

I don't believe this is correct. The damage option for grappling states:

Damage

You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

You don't actually make an attack, you just deal damage equal to one of your natural attacks. The snake just bites down harder I suppose.

Unrelated to the above but it should be noted that the extra damage from grab doesn't happen unless the creature also has constrict.

If yes...

Round 1. Snake bites and intiates grapple, does bite and constrict damage.
Round 2. Snake mantains grapple as standard action, does grapple action, grab, and constrict damage.

From my understanding (and I'm playing a Tetori monk in an upcoming game so I've had to learn the grapple rules inside and out) this is the correct case. If you have both grab AND constrict, anyone unlucky enough to be in this hapless PC's situation is in a bit of a pickle.

It would take some finagling, but Flowing monk seems like it would synergistize quite nicely with duellist.