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These two statements cannot both be true.
I understand all the math... I also understand that the whole 'random average' schlock doesn't match up well for most people's experiences in dice rolling.I don't agree. While I strongly disagree with Artemis stance on Deadly Sneak, it is very well possible to understand DPR and similar concepts and still claiming that the DPR math doesn't match up well for most people's experiences in dice rolling.
DPR works on averages. It assumes that out of 20 rolls, one will be a 20, one will be a 19, etc. That's of course the correct way to calculate DPR, and can be very useful to do - but that doesn't mean it matches up with most people's experiences in actual gameplay.
Because most people will have experiences that deviate from that statistical average.
In addition, the DPR math doesn't make a difference between a 10% chance to deal 100 damage and a 50% chance to deal 20 damage, when these are very very different in terms of how they are played.
Personally, I find that the biggest issue with DPR is not how lucky or unlucky one's dice are, but campaign variance/GM encounter design. An AP like Rise of the Runelords, for example, tends to have somewhat low AC on most enemies, since a lot of the baddies are giants or casters. But chapter 1 is mostly fighting goblins, who have really high AC for their CR. Or more generally, is the GM's typical CR 10 encounter one CR 10 critter, two CR 8s, or six CR 5s?
DPR is a useful tool, but it's always worth remembering that all it tells you is average damage in an average encounter with an average enemy for your level. If your GM/AP has a specific theme to the enemies/encounter design, those averages might not apply.
Is this real?Black Marketeer is real yes.That is 1/9 half a feat
extra traits
Which is generally considered an awful trait.
At first I thought Black Marketeer allowed you to do it more than once, but it, nope. It might be good if a very helpful item is illegal and hard to acquire, for example if a town was ruled wererats and silver weapons were illegal. Still very very very subpar
At first I thought Black Marketeer allowed you to do it more than once, but it, nope. It might be good if a very helpful item is illegal and hard to acquire, for example if a town was ruled wererats and silver weapons were illegal. Still very very very subpar
Well, as long as you didn't want more than 100 gold worth of silver.
Who doesn't pick up a few of those for the golf bag early on anyway?
Edit: There's also that weird thing where feats like that can take away from roleplay if your DM wants you to take a feat like that to actually access a black market or something.
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I know at least one character who'd blow the entire thing on the 'illicit services' aka hookers before we even left town after leveling up. Not sure he'd think of it as a waste IC but it's definitely not 'optimal'.
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Also, that's one of the rare feats we can actually give a numerical value to: 100 gp.
So any feat that that is worth more than 100 gp is a better feat. weapon focus at 1st level is about equivalent to a masterworked weapon, which is worth 300 gp. (yes it stacks with MW and enchantment, but at 1st level you're unlikely to have either of those).
Shield focus is equivalent of a +1 enchantment bonus, and is thus worth 1,000 gp at first level.
However, both of these feats are still useful at higher levels. if 100 gp is still a big deal after level 3 then you are suffering from littlelootitis.
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At first I thought Black Marketeer allowed you to do it more than once, but it, nope. It might be good if a very helpful item is illegal and hard to acquire, for example if a town was ruled wererats and silver weapons were illegal. Still very very very subparIs this real?Black Marketeer is real yes.That is 1/9 half a feat
extra traits
Which is generally considered an awful trait.
It doesn't even make you better at acquiring illegal items. There is nothing in that feat that implies that using that 100 gold will get you your fix better than all the other gold pieces you already have from your honest living as a murderhobo.
At first I thought Black Marketeer allowed you to do it more than once, but it, nope. It might be good if a very helpful item is illegal and hard to acquire, for example if a town was ruled wererats and silver weapons were illegal. Still very very very subparIs this real?Black Marketeer is real yes.That is 1/9 half a feat
extra traits
Which is generally considered an awful trait.
That seems to be a wording issue. If you see it's called a "pool" and there's instruction how to refill the pool, it appears they mean it to be used over and over. So, you could get 100gps of poison, then sell a secret, get more poison, and so forth.
Poor wording, tho.
It was also written in 2008/9 as a 3.5 supplement, before the Core Rules. It appears to be one of those background feats which are bonus feats for that campaign, which were later renamed as "traits".
Extra rogue talent.I love how the thread is about feats, but now we're all talking about rogue talents.
Aye, ideally if you can take them extra times with a feat I would think revelations, rogue talents, and rage powers could count. Regardless, they're still fun to talk about in relation to "This am bad".
It doesn't even make you better at acquiring illegal items. There is nothing in that feat that implies that using that 100 gold will get you your fix better than all the other gold pieces you already have from your honest living as a murderhobo.At first I thought Black Marketeer allowed you to do it more than once, but it, nope. It might be good if a very helpful item is illegal and hard to acquire, for example if a town was ruled wererats and silver weapons were illegal. Still very very very subparIs this real?Black Marketeer is real yes.That is 1/9 half a feat
extra traits
Which is generally considered an awful trait.
The way I read it, you automatically get the item with rolling or roleplaying, but I can see how I could be reading it wrong (again). I seem to have a tendency to misread things so they actually work.
It's not scary, and the game should dramatically pare back all the stupid personal range buffs. Being able to share more buffs with the weakest classes in the game isn't bad for the game, quite the opposite.
Also: Mage armor is pretty great for a wildshaping druid, too, until he can afford Wild armor.
Wild armor is pretty bad compared to to just picking a combat form and having the party dress you in barding.
Biggest downside with that plan is the gnomes keep adding pink ribbons to you.
It's not scary, and the game should dramatically pare back all the stupid personal range buffs. Being able to share more buffs with the weakest classes in the game isn't bad for the game, quite the opposite.
Also: Mage armor is pretty great for a wildshaping druid, too, until he can afford Wild armor.
Wild armor is pretty bad compared to to just picking a combat form and having the party dress you in barding.
Biggest downside with that plan is the gnomes keep adding pink ribbons to you.
I think that depends on your level/WBL, to an extent. Early on you're better off with a couple sets of barding than blowing all your cash on getting Wild armor, but one of the big advantages of Druid shapeshifting is being able to take the right form for the job. As levels go up, you'll have more cash on hand, more forms to shift into, and having more than one set of armor gets more expensive.
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It's not scary, and the game should dramatically pare back all the stupid personal range buffs. Being able to share more buffs with the weakest classes in the game isn't bad for the game, quite the opposite.
Also: Mage armor is pretty great for a wildshaping druid, too, until he can afford Wild armor.
Wild armor is pretty bad compared to to just picking a combat form and having the party dress you in barding.
Biggest downside with that plan is the gnomes keep adding pink ribbons to you.
They're SALMON!
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They're SALMON!It's not scary, and the game should dramatically pare back all the stupid personal range buffs. Being able to share more buffs with the weakest classes in the game isn't bad for the game, quite the opposite.
Also: Mage armor is pretty great for a wildshaping druid, too, until he can afford Wild armor.
Wild armor is pretty bad compared to to just picking a combat form and having the party dress you in barding.
Biggest downside with that plan is the gnomes keep adding pink ribbons to you.
I'm color blind in critter form and even if i wasn't I'm still male! I'm not allowed to see the difference!
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So, top ten worst feats?
1. Caustic slur
2. Elephant stomp
3. Monkey lunge
4. Helpless prisioner
5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
So, top ten worst feats?
1. Caustic slur
2. Elephant stomp
3. Monkey lunge
4. Helpless prisioner
5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Extra Rogue Talent.
Just kidding, it is useful for some builds that aren't exactly rogues.
5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.
5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
And with so many words, what a waste of space.
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And with so many words, what a waste of space.5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
My gods...It has a chart.
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I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.
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I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.
My gods...It has a chart.And with so many words, what a waste of space.5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
Yes, I has a chart. A chart to tell you where to put it and what bonus it gives. No, you can't get a wrist slot item that gives you better sleight of hand and flavor it, but somehow you take up your body slot to get a bonus to diplomacy. Now look at my nice hat! It gives me a bonus to bluff!
I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.Why anyone thought a non scaling, less effective feat that also penalizes you when SKILL FOCUS already exists is beyond me.
But, If you spend 20% of your WBL you can get a grand total of +1, four times to four different skills(that were chosen for you). Also you lost 4 item slots. Skill focus be jelly right?
This ones fun to tease. Just... So much wrong.
I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.That trait is obviously overpowered.
I know, it doesn't have any unnecessary and crippling restrictions at all. It just says clothing or jewelry; your Amulet of Natural Armor would qualify just on its own! I think it should be errata'd so you only get the bonus if you're wearing one of those enormous Elizabethan dresses, that'd be balanced.
I know, it doesn't have any unnecessary and crippling restrictions at all. It just says clothing or jewelry; your Amulet of Natural Armor would qualify just on its own! I think it should be errata'd so you only get the bonus if you're wearing one of those enormous Elizabethan dresses, that'd be balanced.I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.That trait is obviously overpowered.
Enormous elizabethian dress gives you -5 ACP, slows you to a crawl, and gives you a +5 to diplomacy on its own though. Also, I'm pretty sure they fly, because for that kind of cash they better!
Enormous elizabethian dress gives you -5 ACP, slows you to a crawl, and gives you a +5 to diplomacy on its own though. Also, I'm pretty sure they fly, because for that kind of cash they better!I know, it doesn't have any unnecessary and crippling restrictions at all. It just says clothing or jewelry; your Amulet of Natural Armor would qualify just on its own! I think it should be errata'd so you only get the bonus if you're wearing one of those enormous Elizabethan dresses, that'd be balanced.I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.That trait is obviously overpowered.
And they count as armor with +0 armor bonus, so monk can not flurry with them (because no nerf is a good nerf if monks are not there).
Enormous elizabethian dress gives you -5 ACP, slows you to a crawl, and gives you a +5 to diplomacy on its own though. Also, I'm pretty sure they fly, because for that kind of cash they better!I know, it doesn't have any unnecessary and crippling restrictions at all. It just says clothing or jewelry; your Amulet of Natural Armor would qualify just on its own! I think it should be errata'd so you only get the bonus if you're wearing one of those enormous Elizabethan dresses, that'd be balanced.I love how so many of these terrible feats have traits that do the same thing, but better.That trait is obviously overpowered.
You actually receive the fly speed of an albatross.
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5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
This feat is great in those super-low magic campaigns where you can;t spend your cash anyway.
;-)
5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
This feat is great in those super-low magic campaigns where you can;t spend your cash anyway.
;-)
Expect a lot of low-magic games are also low-cash games, and the feat triggers off of standard WBL.
Expect a lot of low-magic games are also low-cash games, and the feat triggers off of standard WBL.5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
This feat is great in those super-low magic campaigns where you can;t spend your cash anyway.
;-)
and, you know, skill focus...
and, you know, skill focus...Expect a lot of low-magic games are also low-cash games, and the feat triggers off of standard WBL.5. that one that give you a +1 to one skill at the price of a item slot and a lot of money.5% of your wealth based level for a +1 to a specific skill? Oh boy! And it eats up an item slot to make extra sure I'm shooting myself in the foot. Maybe the bullet can be the accessory! +1 to diplomacy for the bullet in my foot, it only cost me anywhere from 50 gold at level one(as much as a masterwork item, which gives +2 circumstance) up to 44,000. Did I mention I have to find a way to buy the accessory to fill the slot everytime I level or I just lose the bonus unless I already have an accessory that cost me even more gold in the slot? The best part is everytime I level up I get to look through a different book and do the math myself to figure out how much in the bucket I have to be to receive my bonus! Oh, and its not scaling, because insult to injury.
This feat is great in those super-low magic campaigns where you can;t spend your cash anyway.
;-)
Or things like deceitful...
It's not technically a feat, but the rogue talent Powerful Sneak should be in the running.How...i just don't see it. Assuming you have a 20th level rogue with 10 dice of sneak attack. If he rolled a 1, then a 2, then a 3, and so on until he was out of dice we would have... for a total increase of at least 2 damage. Not that bad considering that weapon specialization only does 2 damage. But lets say best case scenario roll all 1's. That's an increase of 10 damage. Not to mention your making a full attack action which means best case scenario that's 10 additional damage per attack (min of 3 attacks by 20th level) not assume two-weapon fighting or haste (possible 7 attacks for a possible 70 damage increase). AND...its not even a feat, its a class feature.
HOW is this class feature bad at all. Not to mention the higher level version (Deadly Sneak). This one treats all 1's and 2's as 3's. That another potential 70 damage for a potential 140 damage (or 60 if your not using TWF or haste).
"The thief DragonBringerX did not find the trap and I declare her dead."
It's not as mechanically bad as many of the other feats mentioned in this thread, but the Virtuous Creed feat from Champions of Purity gives you a code of conduct you must adhere to if you want to enjoy the (mostly minor) benefits of the feat.
Creed of Humility actually seems quite good, though the rest are bleh. Adding Wisdom in addition to Charisma is pretty cool for builds focused on diplomacy, and the code of conduct is super simple and easy to maintain.
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Deadly Sneak: 2 talents needed, and the first talent (Powerful Sneak) is completely subsumed by the second, granting no additional benefit other than talent tax.
So, what do you get? +2 damage 1/6 of the time and +1 damage an additional 1/6 of the time per sneak attack die (when making a full attack). Statistically, that's +1/2 point of damage per sneak attack die. Wow, that's TRIPLE the benefit of Powerful Sneak alone, for a two-talent investment!
Still sucks.
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Since we're still on the topic of Powerful/Deadly Sneak and how bad they suck...
Check out this 3E feat.
Not how it does not require full attacking, nor incurs any penalty on your attack rolls. Also note how it just straight up lets you reroll (so instead of a 2 or 3, you could potentially get a 4, 5, or 6, too) though you only can reroll once (even if it's another 1).
It's pretty much just plain better than the rogue talents and has no possible drawback at all, at worst it just does nothing.
People *still* didn't take it. It was considered a subpar feat. I've played at least a dozen rogues between campaigns and one shots in 3E, and I never took it, nor did I ever see anyone else. It's just...underwhelming.
Of course, 3E had much better feats for martials in general (pathfinder had to balance "broken" things like that, you know), so that was part of it. In any case...if you're looking for a quick hotfix for the rogue talents...just replace both of them with Deadly Precision.
(pathfinder had to balance "broken" things like that, you know)That reminds me of Super Genius' "Book of Horrifically Overpowered Feats" that including things like Archers being able to gain a 200 foot range increment four times a day, being able to maximize weapon damage dice on a single attack once per day (before you make the attack roll), being able to jump your movement speed and 3.5's Monkey Grip as four of their "hilariously broken" feats that were "classic examples of horrible feat design" and "obviously unusable in real play".
This makes me cry...
This makes me cry...(pathfinder had to balance "broken" things like that, you know)That reminds me of Super Genius' "Book of Horrifically Overpowered Feats" that including things like Archers being able to gain a 200 foot range increment four times a day, being able to maximize weapon damage dice on a single attack once per day (before you make the attack roll), being able to jump your movement speed and 3.5's Monkey Grip as four of their "hilariously broken" feats that were "classic examples of horrible feat design" and "obviously unusable in real play".
It is what it is. Even in that supplement, the most broken feats are caster-based.
Wait, those were satirical right? Constructed to point out how ridiculous the standard for "broken" is when it comes to martial characters, right???
Wait, those were satirical right? Constructed to point out how ridiculous the standard for "broken" is when it comes to martial characters, right???
I don't think so. There are a group of feats in that supplement called "meta-attack feats" which are like derivatives of meta-magic feats, only for physical attacks. For example, there's a feat call Empowered Attack which makes one attack do +50% damage, usable twice per day.
On the other hand, also in the supplement there's some truly outrageous stuff such as a series of feats called Full Casting Action - which basically allow you to cast extra spells per round like martials make iterative attacks.
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So, harrow handbook came out, thought I'd put some rogue talents up here.
Demon Lantern: You may use hypnotic pattern once per day. Well that doesn't sound too bad, except the DC is a static 11+int, and you have to take minor magic to use dancing lights first, and it uses up one use of dancing lights. It also only affects one target.
Papercraft Tools: You can choose to destroy a card in a deck of cards you own to use as thieves tools. If its a harrow deck, it functions as masterwork tools because... I guess those cards are made of breakium? You know what else functions as masterwork thieves tools? Masterwork thieves tools.
I think the point of Card Sharp and Papercraft Tools were to give you card based options and you could use them to sneak past guards I guess, however if they take your deck or know you can do that its kind of moot. All 3 of them are of course easily replaced by an item.
Deadly Dealer also appears again. Not a fan of deadly dealer personally. You use a deck of cards as darts and you have to use arcane strike with it to use them in that manner. Of course you could always just use darts to begin with.
To be fair, they made Deadly Dealer pretty friggin' good with the introduction of the new Witch archetype. Your cards now have the returning property and can deliver ranged touch attacks, all without the liability of an easily murdered familiar? Yes please.