Pathfinder: Epic Level Handbook

[Odraude]

Some other ways you could bring a god to demi-god level:

- The God of Assassins, when allowed by the majority of the other gods, can use their will in a ritual to bring the target god to demigod level. This would allow the Assassin God to pass the pantheon's judgement and execute them.

- An artifact was made in the dawn of time. This artifact is the great equalizer of the gods, having the ability to siphon away the divinity of a god to demigod level. This would keep other gods in check. Of course, this artifact was lost long ago (or hidden...)

- Luring the god away from their plane and onto one that would be their 'weakness' (like a lawful god in a chaotic plane), or into a plane that would destabilize their divine source. This would require the set up that gods have a weakness in such a setting.

[Vexous]

Actually, the thing with Lahmashtu sort of solidifies the point I think. Like any good villain she tossed mooks at her target, and they hurt him despite his divinity. Lots of them, true. But she's a goddess, she can toss armies around. As in any fight, after he'd expended resources she waltzed in and finished him. PCs don't need armies of mooks, they have a group of PCs. If you're Raistlin all you need is a cleric, if you're Karsus of Netheril you just need one single spell.

Players kill gods in DnD, its a time honored tradition. That said, I can see your point in wanting it to be an over the top situation if it actually occurs. That was one of 3.5 epic level's problems. Everything was so open ended killing gods could be an everyday stroll in the park.

[AdrianGM]

with the Wizard King Tar-Baphon (a mortal) killing Arazni (a Demigod), we have a proof that even Gods can be killed. But of course, I agree with all of you here, it will be VERY DIFFICULT to pull something like that. As far as I remember, in the DnD 3.5 Tyrants of Nine Hells book, Asmodeus was a CR 27 Demigod. But now here in Pathfinder, he is a God. With that being said, that makes him more powerful, indestructible, I'm not sure how much, but he is definitely CR 30+. But ok, imagine what you have to go through to get to Asmodeus. You have other 8 Demigods(most notable are Baalzebul and Mephistopheles) plus their minions, Pit Fiends, Immolation Devils, a millions of them. If a party of at least 4 players reaches more than the 20th level plus with Mythic Rules, that party has a chance against a Demigod, it doesn't matter if its a Demonlord, Archdevil etc. But ok, everyone will be sure about that when the battle between a party of PCs and a Demigod occurs, if not curently someone of you here had experienced such a battle.

[Orthos]

AdrianGM wrote:

As far as I remember, in the DnD 3.5 Tyrants of Nine Hells book, Asmodeus was a CR 27 Demigod.

Actually the archdevil statblocks in that book were for their Aspects, not them personally.

[ikki3520]

LazarX wrote:

TOZ wrote:

It hands out different feats?! :)

Are you being obtuse, or did you miss out the "Entirely Different" in my post? I presume that what Jacobs and company have in mind is entirely new mechanics for Mythic Levels,not a mere rehash of pre-20 stuff. As to what those mechanics might be, it's pure speculation at this point.

.

I have a distinct feeling that we saw a part of it alrady.. it was in LoF, the Legacy of Fire AP. Coming in the form of little bonuses handed out for epic deeds like dying and coming back, or killing 20 gnolls.

So it will probly expend on that, perhaps by taking 30 points of fire damage in a go, eating a whole goblin.. (ooh gotta get swallow whole, and muscular action that closes any wounds were the food claws itself out again!)

[Tels]

AdrianGM wrote:

with the Wizard King Tar-Baphon (a mortal) killing Arazni (a Demigod), we have a proof that even Gods can be killed. But of course, I agree with all of you here, it will be VERY DIFFICULT to pull something like that.

Mythic Rules will allow PCs to be able to take on and kill beings of Demi-God like power. This list includes Demi-Gods, Archdevils, Demon Lords, Daemon Lords (the Four Horsemen), Empyreal Lords, Eldest, Great Old Ones, Elemental Lords, and Protean Lords off the top of my head. There's probably more, but that's not the point.

Now, granted, Tar-Baphon is a little bit more than just a normal Mythic character, as he is also a Lich, but a 20th level Wizard, 10th level Mythic, Unique Lich could easily be a CR 35 threat, which is what the Demi-God status is roughly going to be the equivalent of. I believe Demi-God status starts at CR 30, and goes up to probably CR 40. I say this, because Tar-Baphon was so much more powerful than Arazni, that he was able to toy with and humiliated her. She was insignificant in comparison to his power. As a CR 30 vs a CR 35 thread, I could see that happening.

The key here is that Arazni is a DEMI-GOD, not a True God, like Pharasma, Sarenrae or Desna. They are beings that are so powerful, mortals are but insignificant specks to them. No matter how powerful you become, Pathfinder won't let you kill True Gods.

Feel free to house rule that though. If you've got some awesome story line plotted out, then, by all means, go ahead and run it. It's your game, it's your fun, do what you want. Pathfinder's stance though, is that mortals can't kill gods, but demi-gods are fair game.

[ikki3520]

Guess the problem always was with feats, them being essentially a function of level. Epic deeds have so far recieved little other recognition than expirience and loot.

Like shouldnt something happen, atleast semi-mecanically when you get your gold sword in absalom? If nothing else, a extraordinary (non magical) fear aura + intimidate bonus (that guy/gal has proven he/she is VERY good at backing up threats with killing..)

Or being made a noble, diplomacy?

Becoming a know-it-all, i mean the sheer synergy of understanding everything about everything by being able to make DC 40 rolls on EVERY knowledge skill. Just the steer down at someone lesser and stating "i do believe you are mistaken" or just noting how a particular building, nobles that lived there, the stars.. and ooh, thought that plant was extinct.. and planar & divine conjunctions just happen to grant a few free metamagic feats to toss onto a spell (as if you had a rod)

Or perhaps being a dragonslayer. Sure made Sigrid almost invulnerable..

And then we have the whispering path and their mysteries. And the worst part is, they are entirely right.

[AdrianGM]

Tels wrote:

AdrianGM wrote:

with the Wizard King Tar-Baphon (a mortal) killing Arazni (a Demigod), we have a proof that even Gods can be killed. But of course, I agree with all of you here, it will be VERY DIFFICULT to pull something like that.

Mythic Rules will allow PCs to be able to take on and kill beings of Demi-God like power. This list includes Demi-Gods, Archdevils, Demon Lords, Daemon Lords (the Four Horsemen), Empyreal Lords, Eldest, Great Old Ones, Elemental Lords, and Protean Lords off the top of my head. There's probably more, but that's not the point.

Now, granted, Tar-Baphon is a little bit more than just a normal Mythic character, as he is also a Lich, but a 20th level Wizard, 10th level Mythic, Unique Lich could easily be a CR 35 threat, which is what the Demi-God status is roughly going to be the equivalent of. I believe Demi-God status starts at CR 30, and goes up to probably CR 40. I say this, because Tar-Baphon was so much more powerful than Arazni, that he was able to toy with and humiliated her. She was insignificant in comparison to his power. As a CR 30 vs a CR 35 thread, I could see that happening.

The key here is that Arazni is a DEMI-GOD, not a True God, like Pharasma, Sarenrae or Desna. They are beings that are so powerful, mortals are but insignificant specks to them. No matter how powerful you become, Pathfinder won't let you kill True Gods.

Feel free to house rule that though. If you've got some awesome story line plotted out, then, by all means, go ahead and run it. It's your game, it's your fun, do what you want. Pathfinder's stance though, is that mortals can't kill gods, but demi-gods are fair game.

Indeed, I've got some awesome story plotted out, but still I'm not sure whom I'll put. I mean, since my friends are preparing for the 4th Mendevian Crusade, and lately I saw on their faces that they want a true villain to have to face, because the last 10 sessions they spent helping each other in completing their personal "main quests" to say, I'm planning to put a Demon Lord into play, but first of course they will engage against several of that Demon Lord's "servants". Anyway, my friends are still at least 5 sessions away from the 4th Mendevian Crusade, and since we are playing once a week, I have plenty of time to figure everything out, and I'm positive that it will be awesome.

And yes, you are right about everything you just said. I was first looking to cut the story short, not to bother too much, but you said it all. :)

[LazarX]

Vexous wrote:

A bit of perspective on the whole godkiller thing. This is DnD no matter how much we calll it Pathfinder.

That's purely a matter of opinion. According to Gygax, 3rd edition wasn't "D&D". I'd say Pathfinder is it's own game, because it's developed in ways that neither TSR nor Wizards would ever have taken it. And it's much better game for NOT Being D&D.

[leandro redondo]

I see people has many problems with what I call the "upper top reference limit" problem, that is, there has to be something that, no matter how powerful you are, it cannot be defeated or ignored. It's deeply ingrained in occidental culture, permeated as it is by our main religions traditions of an all-powerful God. It's fine, but this is just a game, not a religious campaign. "Gods" can be whatever we want them to be. With that in mind, may I suggest some ways to deal with the problem without creating any problem with your subconcious?

there are three kind of gods:
• primeval gods ( demiurges, creators of multiverses, removed from them just not to destroy them by their pure Magnificence. They are what Absolute power means, the Gods of Gods themselves) They don't mingle with their own creations, just watch them. If so, they work through their agents and foremans ( the rest of the gods)
• Multiversal gods: they are the wardens of creations itself, maybe creator of one or two world or planes, living manifestations of some force or concept like Death or Demonkind. In some places they are stronger than they are in others, but they are represented across the entire cosmos in one or another way ( Greek god Poseidon probably would be never heard of in a Dune-like world, so he at most would be considered a quasigod in there under another name). Working with diferent levels of power and forms depending on the place, means they only can work with local representations of themselves ( avatars, powerful enough to destroy contries, but quite more on the league of extremely powerful Pcs or parties than their practically unkillable true essences - they are the sentient part of some fundamental constant of the Cosmos, remember-). A god can be forbidden by ancient primeval laws to manifest themselves in a world where they have been "killed", i.e, their avatars banished or destroyed, their followers decimated... especially when some other god takes on the power vacuum left quickly ( think about it as a god "losing" a franchise in a place against a more voracious rival, and that it can be a temporary or permanent lose depending of, I don't know, number and will of his followers? Some forgotten rite? name it ).
• " local" Gods: Think about them as incarnations of local concepts ("protector of the Sacrum Imperium or something along that line) or managers of the local franchise of a greater concept. Usually ascended mortals, they depend on their followers to keep the flame of faith on more than the former gods ( with followers across the universe). Their limited scope make them more vulnerable to mortal interference than their more all-encompassing brethren, so when someone manages to "kill" them they are definetively dead. That in no way mean that they can't be obscenely powerful, even more than second type gods when they are on their own fiefdoms, but it's easiest to destroy a nation of followers than expurge fire or love themselves from Cosmos.

There would be a fourth kind, individuals born or gifted with a spark of divine essence, basically mortals with a touch of divinity imbued. Think of special Solars, Pit fiends, Draconals, mortal heroes... Individuals on their path to Ascension or boosted by gods to better serve them, with just the faintiest hint of their Glory to keep them apart from the average mass of their kin.

This is how I managed to solve the conflicting ideas and sensibilities of my player's group, and worked out surprisingly well.

[danielc]

Couldn't you also address the whole god killing issue by using the idea of the "real god" doesn't come down to play with the mortals but rather sends a part of themselves in the form of Avatar? Thus the 30th level character party kills god x's avatar and then later god x can still be alive when needed. Wouldn't that also work?

[David knott 242]

Then you have the question of what to challenge the party with next. A 30th level party just disposed of a god's avatar -- presumably no other avatars are challenges for them any more, but they are not yet ready to take on the gods themselves. What do they fight to work their way up from one to the other?

The upper power limit of characters is set by the maximum CR of available monsters. If you have no monsters abover CR 5, then your 6th level characters are unlikely to ever reach 7th level.

[danielc]

David knott 242 wrote:

Then you have the question of what to challenge the party with next. A 30th level party just disposed of a god's avatar -- presumably no other avatars are challenges for them any more, but they are not yet ready to take on the gods themselves. What do they fight to work their way up from one to the other?

I would treat the Avatars like PCs in the sense they scale up. The asumption that no other avatar could touch the party because they beat one would then go out the window. ;-)

Of course this is just one idea. The real issue will always be how to scale the challange to allow the players to feel like they have to work for it rather then become bored with it. That I do understand is not an easy task for any GM in an epic level game.

[David knott 242]

But then the trick is to avoid making the players feel like they are on a treadmill where they never make any real progress. A party who kills a god's 30th level avatar, then his 31st level avatar, etc. would rightly feel that they are being toyed with. At some point you should do something other than just scale up the numbers on your players.

[danielc]

David knott 242 wrote:

But then the trick is to avoid making the players feel like they are on a treadmill where they never make any real progress. A party who kills a god's 30th level avatar, then his 31st level avatar, etc. would rightly feel that they are being toyed with. At some point you should do something other than just scale up the numbers on your players.

Oh I agree 100%. This is an issue for many GMs and does not just apply to Epic level games. The tight rope walk of challange, fun, thrill, and excitement is not an easy one to walk.

I will also admit this is a reason why we, as a group, have killed campaigns in the past. If they are just a treadmill, they are no longer fun.

[Vexous]

LazarX wrote:

Vexous wrote:

A bit of perspective on the whole godkiller thing. This is DnD no matter how much we calll it Pathfinder.

That's purely a matter of opinion. According to Gygax, 3rd edition wasn't "D&D". I'd say Pathfinder is it's own game, because it's developed in ways that neither TSR nor Wizards would ever have taken it. And it's much better game for NOT Being D&D.

Oddly enough, I've been saying much the same thing about 3.0/3.5. Those sort of statements didn't go over too well back in the day. However, Pathfinder has a bit more spirit than 3.x and seems somehow closer to the original. Is Pathfinder its dad? Nope. But make no mistake, its part of the family.

[BlueStorm]

DayneTheWickman wrote:

Or you can just keep going up levels by using the patterns each class has...but that's only if you have a functioning brain and can figure it out of course...

I've taken characters all the way up to level 40 before by following the pre-set pattern with levelling up. It's not that hard.

However, if you want a little extra fun, might I recommend simply adding other classes to what you already have? Figuring out the amount of exp required to go up the next level is simple really.

exp for current lvl + 1/2 exp for current lvl = exp for next lvl

That's what I always did with my group.

I'd probably end up adding a little bit of fun bits to chew on; such as letting players pick an archetype to use for the next 20 levels of progression (Altered where appropriate).

For Example: say you've got a "Holy Gun" Paladin, and you've reached level 20. I'd be perfectly fine allowing The use of the Empyreal Knight Archetype for levels 21-40 despite some of the contradictions between the two for what they replace.

That... would be epic.

I'm also fine with leaving bits out of archetypes in cases where they would be redundant.

[Sauce987654321]

Tels wrote:

AdrianGM wrote:

with the Wizard King Tar-Baphon (a mortal) killing Arazni (a Demigod), we have a proof that even Gods can be killed. But of course, I agree with all of you here, it will be VERY DIFFICULT to pull something like that.

Mythic Rules will allow PCs to be able to take on and kill beings of Demi-God like power. This list includes Demi-Gods, Archdevils, Demon Lords, Daemon Lords (the Four Horsemen), Empyreal Lords, Eldest, Great Old Ones, Elemental Lords, and Protean Lords off the top of my head. There's probably more, but that's not the point.

Now, granted, Tar-Baphon is a little bit more than just a normal Mythic character, as he is also a Lich, but a 20th level Wizard, 10th level Mythic, Unique Lich could easily be a CR 35 threat, which is what the Demi-God status is roughly going to be the equivalent of. I believe Demi-God status starts at CR 30, and goes up to probably CR 40. I say this, because Tar-Baphon was so much more powerful than Arazni, that he was able to toy with and humiliated her. She was insignificant in comparison to his power. As a CR 30 vs a CR 35 thread, I could see that happening.

The key here is that Arazni is a DEMI-GOD, not a True God, like Pharasma, Sarenrae or Desna. They are beings that are so powerful, mortals are but insignificant specks to them. No matter how powerful you become, Pathfinder won't let you kill True Gods.

Feel free to house rule that though. If you've got some awesome story line plotted out, then, by all means, go ahead and run it. It's your game, it's your fun, do what you want. Pathfinder's stance though, is that mortals can't kill gods, but demi-gods are fair game.

Well the Solar's description states that it's power approaches demigod and it's CR23. I don't know if you'll be able to achieve the power of a full fledged god but CR 35 monsters should be way past demigod strength at that point.

[Tels]

If Demigod-like power starts at CR 30, I could easily see a CR 23 as 'approaching'. Keep in mind, the bestiary Solar is the vanilla Solar. They aren't all carbon copy-clones of one another.

However, based off things in the Bestiary, Demigod power could, actually, start at CR 26 and proceed as high as Pazio wishes it to.

Balor Lords wrote:

A balor lord is typically a CR 21 to CR 25 monster (a range shared with the various unique nascent demon lords, with the range of CR 26 and above being the domain of the demon lords themselves), and as such serves quite well as the final villain in a long-running campaign.

If Paizo wishes to keep this part of the Bestiary relevant, the 'lesser' Demigods would start at CR 26 and work their way up. So maybe Arazni was only a CR 26 Demigod, while Tar-Baphon was a CR 30+ Unique Mythic Lich. This only furthers the ability for Tar-Baphon to simply toy with and humiliate her.

This also gives more room for varying levels of Demon Lords, Archdevils, Empyreal Lords etc. There could be (relatively) numerous CR 26 Demon Lords, but only a handful of CR 30 - 35 Demon Lords. They are truly the most terrifying denizens of the Abyss and even the lesser Lords pay tribute to them.

[Sauce987654321]

Tels wrote:

If Demigod-like power starts at CR 30, I could easily see a CR 23 as 'approaching'. Keep in mind, the bestiary Solar is the vanilla Solar. They aren't all carbon copy-clones of one another

That's a preeetty big gap to "approach" something at.

[Vexous]

Actually, Second Darkness gave out quite a few CRs for demon lords that the drow worship. They ranged from CR26 for the smallfry to CR32 for Orcus and his contemporaries, with Lamashtu as CR-(Deity). Nocticula at 32 is one of the demonlords supposedly on the brink of godhood so that may well be the top end. So yeah, with all the Baphon-buildup we've seen I could picture him as a CR 30/32.

[The Block Knight]

Second Darkness was 3.5 rather than Pathfinder so I imagine they'll revise that list slightly. . . but not much. I figure they'll probably use it as a base guideline (Nocticula is stronger than Pazuzu who is stronger than Juibilex, etc). They'll keep the low end of CR 26 but probably vary the capped-out CR 32 Demon Lords between CR 31 to 35.

More of an expansion of the Second Darkness list, rather than a complete overhaul.

[Darksider1969]

My friends and I played in a long running campaign (5+ years) meeting each week and playing for 4-5 hours. When we were unable to continue the campaign due to life changes (moving to another state, job change, etc.), we were all level 15-17, with practically every encounter (other than wandering monsters, minions, etc.) capable of killing one or more of us at a time. The entire campaign was "Epic" as we forged an empire and fought off dozens of villainous organizations bent on our demise...

If you have a character in their 20s, I am betting you either didn't start at first level, or your GM is a bit of a wuss. Or both. Either way, I just feel sad for you, because nothing will ever be enough - you aren't being challenged and you aren't really earning your levels. Feel free to protest the opposite, but deep down, you know I'm right. Your hollow little paper gods are just so much tree pulp and ink, whereas my Lvl 17 Barbarian/Ranger Half-Orc who once killed a Fire Giant in a single round of combat is truly "Epic".

[Odraude]

Huh... you really thought it was worth necroing this thread for that...

[Kthulhu]

leandro redondo, your classification system is interesting, but it's flawed for the Pathfinder setting. Iomede is of a greater power gp than the Four Horsemen, but they are far more multiversal powers than she is. She's not even widely known across Golarion.

[leandro redondo]

Kthulhu wrote:

leandro redondo, your classification system is interesting, but it's flawed for the Pathfinder setting. Iomede is of a greater power gp than the Four Horsemen, but they are far more multiversal powers than she is. She's not even widely known across Golarion.

That only means that she has much more influence here than they have, so probably she is a local goddess or a multiversal goddess on the wane. No body says that local gods can't expand beyond their lands, usually when a certain culture expands too. Iomede is actively worshiped here, but probably the four horsemen keep just a few cults, rather more interested in the power of Daemons servants and allies than anything else. They can be catalogued as multiversal demigods ( more powerful here and there, with a rise in status in some worlds) and she could be a local goddess of higher status, but only in some worlds ( as golarion). Making a cheap comparison, you could say the same to a big company( say a diamond mining company), but quite local, and a world widespread one with just a few business in the same place( say a newspaper publisher). This local company can have obscene profits with some quiet an discreet kinds of bussines, while the other one works in another line of bussiness, maybe even with less profits on the whole.

[Theeris]

The Almighty Bear wrote:

So is Paizo going to release an Epic Level Handbook in the near future? My group just hit 20th level, and we're going to break for the winter, but once we come back, they are going to be slavering for more.

Sorry, this is 2 years late, but you could get them to just multiclass for the class stuff, and if they really don't want to, just make up some class stuff. As for the feats, I can just say I hope you don't have a fighter in your party.

[LazarX]

Theeris wrote:

The Almighty Bear wrote:

So is Paizo going to release an Epic Level Handbook in the near future? My group just hit 20th level, and we're going to break for the winter, but once we come back, they are going to be slavering for more.

Sorry, this is 2 years late, but you could get them to just multiclass for the class stuff, and if they really don't want to, just make up some class stuff. As for the feats, I can just say I hope you don't have a fighter in your party.

Or maybe it's time to forget about levels and start thinking of an appropriate climactic ending for the campaign instead?

[Marroar Gellantara]

LazarX wrote:

Theeris wrote:

The Almighty Bear wrote:

So is Paizo going to release an Epic Level Handbook in the near future? My group just hit 20th level, and we're going to break for the winter, but once we come back, they are going to be slavering for more.

Sorry, this is 2 years late, but you could get them to just multiclass for the class stuff, and if they really don't want to, just make up some class stuff. As for the feats, I can just say I hope you don't have a fighter in your party.

Or maybe it's time to forget about levels and start thinking of an appropriate climactic ending for the campaign instead?

Why does it have to end?

Why can't a kid from the slums, who fought for bread, not one day be battling across the universe over the fate of existence?

level 20 is really only the tip of iceberg.

[LazarX]

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Theeris wrote:

The Almighty Bear wrote:

So is Paizo going to release an Epic Level Handbook in the near future? My group just hit 20th level, and we're going to break for the winter, but once we come back, they are going to be slavering for more.

Sorry, this is 2 years late, but you could get them to just multiclass for the class stuff, and if they really don't want to, just make up some class stuff. As for the feats, I can just say I hope you don't have a fighter in your party.

Or maybe it's time to forget about levels and start thinking of an appropriate climactic ending for the campaign instead?

Why does it have to end?

Why can't a kid from the slums, who fought for bread, not one day be battling across the universe over the fate of existence?

level 20 is really only the tip of iceberg.

All stories end sometime. Pathfinder simply breaks down the more you go beyond level 20. It becomes a game of rocket tag rather than fantasy battle. It especially becomes problematic for martial characters.

The other problem is your faulty premise. You can still "battle for the fate of the universe" without an infinite scale of levels. Batman doesn't "level" Superman sure doesn't. Heroes tend to reach a plateau of power in story, and generally stay there.

[Brother Fen]

Distant Worlds opens the game up for infinite possilities. I relish the day when I can DM a group of high level PC's thru Mythic games across the multi-verse.

[TimD]

Disagree with LazarX (which seems to happen often, sadly).
Some stories are insufficiently epic without the right buy-in and the right #'s. Sometimes that requires >20th level play.
Not all of us play the same game in the same way. There are few "wrongs" and many "that's not how I do it / think it should be done / have experienced the game".

Mythic may work for some folks. Others of us it won't.

Also, Bruce Wayne in TV Show Gotham =/= Batman in Dark Knight Returns.

-TimD