While I doubt I'd ever reach, say, level 40, I just dislike of the idea that anything outside of me or my group says "This is where your character ends. You can't play him past this point." Of course, if you ask anyone that's actually made it to that point, they'll say they keep playing anyway.
Of course, it is up to you where you end your campaign -- but it is a good idea to have some end point in mind. If, for example, you want to keep going all the way to level 40, you should set your campaign so that it has worthy challenges all the way to that level. If the ruler of your pantheon is only CR 30, then your characters would have nothing left to do once they take him out at level 30. That CR is one of many things that need to be worked out with a final campaign level in mind.
What they could do is set an official cap, and then give suggestions for those that want to ignore that cap.
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One thing I've always said in my games is "there is always a bigger fish". No matter how powerful the players are, there will always be something out there somewhere that's bigger and badder than they are. They might have to cross several planes to find it, manage a way out into deep space, or heck even time travel. But if they want a challenge, it can eventually be found. And getting to it may well be an adventure of its own.
It helps that yes I stick pretty much exclusively to homebrew settings these days.
Not a bad idea Wraithstrike. Side-bars on how to advance or extrapolate certain elements beyond the given cap could certainly help (though may not satisfy) homebrewers, while keeping everything within the bounds of their own system.
Some games I run have that philosphy, Orthos, and some don't. I GM multiple campaigns using many different systems from different companies. When I go the "bigger fish" route I also homebrew and modify the rules and setting of the particular system I'm using for that campaign.
As it stands though, the cannon rules and setting are just not equipped for an endless extrapolation of power. There are "Bigger Fish" in Pathfinder but they're called gods and the rules don't account for them. So no matter how powerful the party gets Epic, Mythic, or not, there will technically always be entities more powerful but they're so powerful the PCs can't really deal with them. Unless the PCs also become gods, but then from a rules standpoint, Pathfinder leaves that in the hands of the GM. At that point, under the current designs, it would be best to switch to a different system to detail an escalating "God War".
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While I doubt I'd ever reach, say, level 40, I just dislike of the idea that anything outside of me or my group says "This is where your character ends. You can't play him past this point." Of course, if you ask anyone that's actually made it to that point, they'll say they keep playing anyway.Of course, it is up to you where you end your campaign -- but it is a good idea to have some end point in mind. If, for example, you want to keep going all the way to level 40, you should set your campaign so that it has worthy challenges all the way to that level. If the ruler of your pantheon is only CR 30, then your characters would have nothing left to do once they take him out at level 30. That CR is one of many things that need to be worked out with a final campaign level in mind.
That might work, as long as you don't want to run a sandbox campaign with no end point (or usually even any long term plans on the part of the GM).
Also, there's no reason to assign CRs to deities. Plus, there may be nothing to do here and now, but what about over there where the characters have never been before (say, on another plane)?
Block Knight, I wouldn't mind them saying Golarion (or any other specific setting) only goes up to 35 (or whatever), but if you're going to publish a whole book on epic levels, made to be widely useable even outside of Golarion, then both of those arguments you mentioned are somewhat valid. Everything published by Paizo that isn't setting details is meant to be used in homebrew games as well as Golarion.
If that meant they had to say "Well, here's the progressions for however many levels you want. These have only been tested up to 35 though." that'd be fine.
Also, there are people that would stop playing (or at least lose some interest) if the character advancement suddenly stopped, even if the characters continued to do other stuff. I know, because I'm one of them. Character advancement, in a mechanical as well as story sense, is an important part of the game to me.
Not a bad idea Wraithstrike. Side-bars on how to advance or extrapolate certain elements beyond the given cap could certainly help (though may not satisfy) homebrewers, while keeping everything within the bounds of their own system.
Some games I run have that philosphy, Orthos, and some don't. I GM multiple campaigns using many different systems from different companies. When I go the "bigger fish" route I also homebrew and modify the rules and setting of the particular system I'm using for that campaign.
As it stands though, the cannon rules and setting are just not equipped for an endless extrapolation of power. There are "Bigger Fish" in Pathfinder but they're called gods and the rules don't account for them. So no matter how powerful the party gets Epic, Mythic, or not, there will technically always be entities more powerful but they're so powerful the PCs can't really deal with them. Unless the PCs also become gods, but then from a rules standpoint, Pathfinder leaves that in the hands of the GM. At that point, under the current designs, it would be best to switch to a different system to detail an escalating "God War".
What system would you suggest (d20 preferably), because I´m starting to think that Pathfinder isn't all that I wanted. What system can cover all if any (sci fi, psionics, epic, divine, cosmic, asian, fire guns, classless etc.) as far as I know the most closest thing is 3.5, and for that is why I expected so much from Pathfinder, and don't get me wrong Pathfinder is great and have things I never imagine but I wish they have published some of the things I wanted (yeah you can call me selfish).
Bear in mind there are only 3 rule books a year (unlike the zillion that at time felt came out of WOTC 3.5). That limited space means it will take awhile to get to some of the things you want. Also they only publish one setting, so it's a lot harder to integrate radically different things like Sci-fi. I think eventually that most of what you want will be available, and what isn't will get made by a 3pp.
What system would you suggest (d20 preferably), because I´m starting to think that Pathfinder isn't all that I wanted. What system can cover all if any (sci fi, psionics, epic, divine, cosmic, asian, fire guns, classless etc.) as far as I know the most closest thing is 3.5, and for that is why I expected so much from Pathfinder, and don't get me wrong Pathfinder is great and have things I never imagine but I wish they have published some of the things I wanted (yeah you can call me selfish).Not a bad idea Wraithstrike. Side-bars on how to advance or extrapolate certain elements beyond the given cap could certainly help (though may not satisfy) homebrewers, while keeping everything within the bounds of their own system.
Some games I run have that philosphy, Orthos, and some don't. I GM multiple campaigns using many different systems from different companies. When I go the "bigger fish" route I also homebrew and modify the rules and setting of the particular system I'm using for that campaign.
As it stands though, the cannon rules and setting are just not equipped for an endless extrapolation of power. There are "Bigger Fish" in Pathfinder but they're called gods and the rules don't account for them. So no matter how powerful the party gets Epic, Mythic, or not, there will technically always be entities more powerful but they're so powerful the PCs can't really deal with them. Unless the PCs also become gods, but then from a rules standpoint, Pathfinder leaves that in the hands of the GM. At that point, under the current designs, it would be best to switch to a different system to detail an escalating "God War".
Have you tried GURPS? The main motivation for that seems to be one system, irrespective of genre.
While I would love to see what Paizo would do with an Epic book, I am not in a hurry to get it. I have found a lot of players like the reset once in a while to allow them to try new things.
But I would buy an Epic Level Book if they put one out.
Bear in mind there are only 3 rule books a year (unlike the zillion that at time felt came out of WOTC 3.5). That limited space means it will take awhile to get to some of the things you want. Also they only publish one setting, so it's a lot harder to integrate radically different things like Sci-fi. I think eventually that most of what you want will be available, and what isn't will get made by a 3pp.
Maybe but Paizo had already said that some of this things would never come, which is really sad. I believe Pathfinder have the potential to do all this and more and inside Golarion, but it looks that Paizo just doesn't want and that is what really disappoint me.
Have you tried GURPS? The main motivation for that seems to be one system, irrespective of genre.
I have never hear of it but from what I read on Wikipedia sounds like what I looking for, thanks
Actually I would say of your list, only the epic rules and classless are things that Paizo has completely said no to (or would probably).
Psionics = They have stated an interested in psychic magic, but will probably invent a new system.
Sci-fi: Some of this will probably be included as they expand distant worlds material.
Asian: Tian Xia setting
Guns: Ultimate combat
Cosmic: will probably get more info as they expand Great Beyond material
Divine: They have stated an interest in doing a Golarion hardcover diety book.
GURPS is really great at just about everything. One of the things it's not so great at is high-fantasy dungeon crawls (but they do have a line of books that shows how to fix that).
That said, if you think D20 combat is slow, you won't like GURPS. Each round is only 1 second, and there are many more basic options (things everyone can try) for each of those seconds, and many more optional modifications of all those basic options (e.g. getting a dodge bonus for diving for cover). There's also quite a bit more rolling since defenses are rolled in addition to attacks. Still, it's a lot of fun if you don't mind those kinds of things.
dot
While I would love to see what Paizo would do with an Epic book, I am not in a hurry to get it. I have found a lot of players like the reset once in a while to allow them to try new things.
But I would buy an Epic Level Book if they put one out.
+1 exactly!
Actually I would say of your list, only the epic rules and classless are things that Paizo has completely said no to (or would probably).
Psionics = They have stated an interested in psychic magic, but will probably invent a new system.
Sci-fi: Some of this will probably be included as they expand distant worlds material.
Asian: Tian Xia setting
Guns: Ultimate combat
Cosmic: will probably get more info as they expand Great Beyond material
Divine: They have stated an interest in doing a Golarion hardcover diety book.
How can be deities and cosmic beings without epic, maybe with tiers at top of mythic?
Indeed UC and Tian Xia cover guns and asian.
I'm ok with Psionics Unleashed.
And for classless I was expecting a class/archetype builder like the race builder for the ones like me that want to play a character no covered yet for the rules, but James have already answer this with a negative.
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Well they have stated that only demigods will get statted. I assumed with cosmic/divine you meant more info or planar type adventures. Gods...kind of stop being gods if anyone can just get to a certain level and kill them. I tend to agree with others that powerful dieties such as Abadar, Pharasma, etc should not be statted up.
+1 exactly!While I would love to see what Paizo would do with an Epic book, I am not in a hurry to get it. I have found a lot of players like the reset once in a while to allow them to try new things.
But I would buy an Epic Level Book if they put one out.
For me, although it sounds of interest, the reality is that my funds are limited so I have to prioritise. And a major priority is 'is this of use to me now?'. My players' highest level PCs are just pushing level 6, and at the rate we play we're never going to reach level 20 so I am never going to need epic rules and I have no justification for adding it to my wish list. Which is probably true for a lot of other players as well, so the potential market for epic rules must be a lot smaller than the normal customer base.
But the planned mythic rules, I can use straight away. I don't have to wait for years for my players to get to high levels. So Mythic Rules can go straight on my wish list. And everyone's a potential customer.
So I'd suggest waiting to see if Mythic Rules is going to serve the purpose. If so, then problem solved.
Based on Chief Cook and Bottlewasher's post I'm wondering if I missed something. What is the understood difference between Epic level play and Mythic level play?
Based on Chief Cook and Bottlewasher's post I'm wondering if I missed something. What is the understood difference between Epic level play and Mythic level play?
'Epic' level play is generally meant to refer to taking characters above level 20. The Mythic rules can be used to enhance characters of any level, including making level 20 characters tougher (and thus able to take on the same sorts of tasks an 'epic' character could).
Based on Chief Cook and Bottlewasher's post I'm wondering if I missed something. What is the understood difference between Epic level play and Mythic level play?'Epic' level play is generally meant to refer to taking characters above level 20. The Mythic rules can be used to enhance characters of any level, including making level 20 characters tougher (and thus able to take on the same sorts of tasks an 'epic' character could).
So I could have a mythic 5th level character?
If so, then that is what I missed.
Yep. Mythic levels are granted rather than gained, given by the GM whenever the player does something to earn them, completes certain tasks, is granted power by a superior force, or all other sorts of reasons.
Mythic and Epic are only comparable in the sense that they let you take on higher CR enemies. That said, there are a lot of people that expect they'll be able to do away with the granting aspect and tie the mythic levels to XP somehow (as a houserule) to get to an equivalent of level 30.
Mythic won't grant more iterative attacks, higher spell slots or more sneak attack dice. Epic would. Instead, mythic will remove iterative attack penalties, grant more low-level slots and raise sneak attack dice size (as made up examples).
Thanks folks. I am now up to speed. :-)
Hello to everyone. I just registered here a couple of hours ago and I wanted to ask the same question: Will there ever a be an Epic Level Handbook for Pathfinder? I started being a GM of Pathfinder more than 6 months ago, and 3 my friends which are playing my campaigns (A Paladin, a Ranger (whom has a Winter Wolf animal companion), and a Witch... Strange party although it's funny when they start complaining about thounsands and thousands of not much important things and facts). They made it from 1st lvl to the 13th lvl, and my friend who plays as Paladin wants to become a Holy Vindicator after he survives to level up his Paladin character to the 20th. If there isn't going to be an Epic Level Handbook, I only see for now, as a solution, that they can have 20 levels of core class + 10 levels prestige class, as GM I would allow it, and that everything will continue as it was from the beginning. Base Atk, Saves, new feats (only that there will not be an Epic Level Handbook, but they still have a plenty of feats from Core Rulebook, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Inner Sea World Guide etc.), new special abilities which the selected class gives etc. Besides, there are tips and hints in the Core Rulebook about leveling up beyond 20th. I think, after my friends reach 20th level and want to go beyond, I think that this system which I described here, would work alright. Does anybody here has an additional idea, or maybe an advice about this?
There needs to be a book or Realms of GOds and Devils. Maybe even a book on Spacedemons and Planer hells and heavens. With Supreme Gods and Demigods.
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Hello to everyone. I just registered here a couple of hours ago and I wanted to ask the same question: Will there ever a be an Epic Level Handbook for Pathfinder?Since you've managed to miss the relevant blog posts on the subject. I can say this. Paizo is not going down WOTC's road of rethreading the late and unloved Epic Level Handbook. Instead they're doing something completely different, a new mechanic called Mythic Levels.
That represents all that's published as far as current information. If you want more info, start visiting the Paizo Blog more often and you'll get the news when the rest of us do.
Mythic Blog: This is the Blog that announces Mythic Rules and gives some basic information.
My post that records a lot of information revealed in the GenCon Podcast. If you want clarification on some of the stuff revealed, just ask in the thread, I'd be happy to share what I know about it, or explain how things work to the best of my ability and knowledge.
Thanks a lot guys. I read the Mythic Blog, and honestly, I'm thrilled. I can't wait for that book Mythic Adventures to be released. I think that by that time my friends won't reach to the 20th lvl, but if they'll make it, it's not a problem. And by far I'm thrilled with many of the Paizo books about Pathfinder, from the Core books to the Pathfinder Chronicles, Pathfinder Companion Books and many others, and plus I like the entire setting of the planet Golarion, all the kingdoms, cities, factions, NPC's, all that knowledge helped me to make epic campaigns. Long live Forest Marshall Weslen Gavirk! :)
Don't forget: There ARE rules in the RPG for going on playing past level 20. Them and the mythic rules put together should be enough to make play after level 20 work and fun.
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at some point, you take on the biggest and baddest possible enemy, and after that there are no worthwhile challenges left.In a campaign where you can literally just travel to another plane of existence if this one becomes unchallanging, there's no reason this really has to be the case.
Except many campaigns do have an ultimate Big Bad defined. In Golarion, once you have gotten rid of Rovagug, what else is there to do?
You can't get rid of Rovagug, gods are outside mortals reach. You can, however, go against the demonlords trying to free him or demigods trying to assasinte the gatekeeper.
Yawar
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I can get rid of Rovagug tomorrow if I feel like it. With 5th level characters.
Get in a fist fight with the Zoas clearly. Nothing says f+#~ you than di!@# punching Urizen.
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Actually there are plenty of challenges, and I mean from CR 20. For example, Balor, Pit Fiend, Olethrodaemon, they are not one of a kind and unique. You can go to Abbys and 3 Balors attack you all quite a sudden. Plus, I'm glad that at Pathfinder SRD site they have made some Demonlords, Archdevils, which are from CR 26 and up. And you have many others like Jabberwock, Fafnheir, Treerazer and Tarrasque (well, there is still no solution for killing Tarrasque) and millions of Dragons and many other beasts. In the end, when my firends would want to face dangerous challenges, they could go to Maelstorm, Abbadon, Abbys, Nine Hell etc.
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Except many campaigns do have an ultimate Big Bad defined. In Golarion, once you have gotten rid of Rovagug, what else is there to do?That's the thing about Good and Evil. New champions always rise.
What happened when Aroden died?
Indeed Golarion needs new champions, or how I like to call them, Heroes. Anyway, by the Inner Sea World Guide book, That part about Aroden "dying", was very interesting to me as a GM. By the way, since I'm a GM, I used that to make something interesting, that after Aroden defeated the Wizard King Tar-Baphon, Tar-Baphon has managed to imprison Aroden in an artifact. And yes, that battle took at Isle of Terror. And then, when my friends which are playing my campaigns have went to Isle of Terror, and without even knowing, they entered the Golden City of Xin-Grafar at the Isle of Terror, they stumbled across the artifact and rescued Aroden. That was an epic moment for them, especially for my friend who plays as Paladin.
I can get rid of Rovagug tomorrow if I feel like it. With 5th level characters.
Ah, no doubt this will be the plot of the level 1-5 low level game. :p
The Stormwind Fallacy is itself a fallacy. Fact of the matter is, that exaggerated characters whether in power level, extremely oddball races or whatever raise the bar of difficulty in telling a good story, because their oddities cast that much a larger shadow. Mortals killing gods require a lot of special handling if the story isn't going to be nothing more than the shadow of a silly or Monty campaign. It means that certain questions need to be asked about the nature of mortals, heroes, and divinities. And on those answers will hang the merits of the saga.
The real question as always will be does the gimmick rule the story? If so, than no amount of Stormwind invocations will save it.
Absolutely, I mean just because Superman has been around for going on 80 years doesn't prove a thing.
The real question as always will be does the gimmick rule the story? If so, than no amount of Stormwind invocations will save it.Absolutely, I mean just because Superman has been around for going on 80 years doesn't prove a thing.
To be honest that is a great example to prove his point. I believe that Superman's "gimmick" does nto rule the story. His struggle to find life and to fit in and to etc is the focus of the story. So he lasted because he found a story beyond his gimmick.
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To be honest that is a great example to prove his point. I believe that Superman's "gimmick" does nto rule the story. His struggle to find life and to fit in and to etc is the focus of the story. So he lasted because he found a story beyond his gimmick.
So how does that prove his point? You think only the people who write Superman can accomplish this?
So how does that prove his point? You think only the people who write Superman can accomplish this?
No, but I do think it is much harder to pull off then many writters think it is. There is a reason so many TV shows start off strong then burn out in one or two seasons. Because they have rode the Gimmick as far as it will take them. The gimmicks often are the writters version of the one trick pony.
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A bit of perspective on the whole godkiller thing. This is DnD no matter how much we calll it Pathfinder. Gods have been getting killed by players since before the Deities & Demigods book came out back in 1st Ed. Not right, not wrong, its just how it is. Gods die here, you want a game where that doesn't happen try some World of Darkness. Here you can rise to challenge the gods themselves, there you get eaten by your elders. Just how it is.
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A bit of perspective on the whole godkiller thing. This is DnD no matter how much we calll it Pathfinder. Gods have been getting killed by players since before the Deities & Demigods book came out back in 1st Ed. Not right, not wrong, its just how it is. Gods die here, you want a game where that doesn't happen try some World of Darkness. Here you can rise to challenge the gods themselves, there you get eaten by your elders. Just how it is.
+1 I have never known why people are so horrified about killing gods.
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Personally, I don't like the idea of a mortal killing a god, but I don't mind gods or even demi-gods, killing gods. Lamasthu had to send her entire host of demons against Curchanus to weaken him to the point of allowing her to kill him. This was a major Demon Lord who are a kin in power to demi-gods, so that should say something.
Mythic Rules will allow a player to take on and kill a demi-god, Demon Lord, Archedevil, Daemon Lord, Eldest, Empyreal Lords etc. So in theory, a Mythic Character could kill a God, it would just require trapping a god and sending untold legions of creatures to weaken the god just to give you a chance of killing it. If a player wanted to do something like that, I'd be fine with it, but he'd have a hard time getting the creatures, people, fiends etc, necessary to pull it off. It would take a lot of time but it could be done.
The only other way to really do it would be to find some way of destabilizing the gods' power so you could weaken him in some other way. Like maybe a planet where a former god of magic was slain has been reduced to a husk of anti-magical ruins. Trapping the newest god of magic there would weaken him to the extent that a Mythic Mortal could have a chance of killing the god of magic.