I think it'd be fair to charge about 9000gp for this item. And that's because there are very few bracers actually competing for the wrist slot.
Better have a somewhat cheap item than a completely overpriced one. (Assuming the item is not game-breaking or OP. IMO this item is neither)
Yes, clarification needs to be made for it; what I mean to say is that a wand should be able to cast spells usable on any general target, such as you, a creature (friend or foe), or a specific area (such as a square or square's corner for spell centering regarding AoE wands).The thing is, while yes, the True Strike spell lists you (the caster) as a target, a Wand is a subject that discharges the spell and its listed description on the target you choose (which for examples, are what I listed above). It's limited, and thusly does not fully function as a Wand (which casts a spell on any specific target or area), and therefore is not able to be crafted as a Wand due to its limited function.
You're projecting, though. There is no requirement that a wand must be able to target any general target. The CRB says "...any 4th-level or lower spell that you know." It doesn't go on to say "...and that has a range other than Personal and/or a target other than You."
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Noooo, mah cheap 17-20/x3 crossbows!Which the spell's text explicitly doesn't let you have.
To quote Cheapy from another thread on the exact same issue :
"It's not the crit range that matters with that spell. It's the increased crit multiplier, combined with the crossbow's BASE crit range of 19-20. So it becomes x3, and you can still apply improved critical, since it's not stacking with anything."
-> The spell doesn't increase the "threat range" of a crossbow, only it's multiplier since the BASE range is already 19-20. The spell explicitely states that this effect does not stack with any other effect increasing the "threat range", but you aren't increasing the threat range of your crossbow in the first place, so Improved Critical can apply since it isn't stacking with anything else.
and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
"Becomes" and "is increased to" are significantly different.
With the way the spell is worded, if they were to create a bow/crossbow with a natural crit range of 18-20/x4, after casting the spell it would change to 19-20/x3, even though that's a worse range and modifier.
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The issue with saying that the bracers should also cost 16K is that the amount of items it affects (which is only 2 types, bows and crossbows) is much more limited compared to what the Keen Scabbard offers, so we can cut the price down to approximately 8-10K (for simplicity sakes, we can meet in the middle at 9K), which is much more appropriate because it offers: Keen Effects for Bows and Crossbows, (as well as adds a Multiplier for Crossbows, but is an exclusive thing and would not be worth too much for any one item), and a +1 to hit with all ranged weapons (which would function as a lesser type of Magic Weapon or Guidance spell).
those two types of weapons are 99% of ranged attackers weapons though. after that you get into thrown weapons or improvised weapons, which are far less optimal.
I've just read the Bracers of the Falcon. Where Bracers of Archery gives you a +1 competence bonus to hit, for 5000 gold, Bracers of the falcon gives you Aspect of the Falcon continously. That's +3 competence bonus to perception, +1 competence bonus to hit, and your crit becomes 19+/x3. For 4000.
For only 4000 gold, that item is extremely overpowered. The crit range alone makes it overpowered. Normally, if you're replacing a feat (Improved Critical in this case) with an item, it's at least 10K-20K gold.
For example, Ring of Evasion (25K gold) or Scarrab of Keen Edges (16K gold, 3 times per day only, and needs a command word).
Also, archers definitely didn't need another bump in power, if anything they need to be nerfed.
The amount of power creep in Ultimate Equipment is a little unnerving.
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Also, archers definitely didn't need another bump in power, if anything they need to be nerfed.
The amount of power creep in Ultimate Equipment is a little unnerving.
Yeah! Let's nerf one of the few options that let martials actually do their jobs! The only ones who have the right to be useful are casters!!!
While this item may be underpriced, it's far from gamebreaking. The problem is not that archers (or two-handers) are too powerful, but that most other options (TWF, dueling, combat maneuvers, etc) are subpar, or acceptable at best.
Also Ring of Evasion is pretty overpriced too.
My 10th level ranger (PFS) will certainly be selling his Greater bracers and picking these up - it's worth the 12.5k gold loss.
Basically, what it does is give me one additional standard action per combat encounter (I no longer have to cast Aspect of the Falcon); considering a typical combat encounter is 2-3 rounds, tops, that's huge action-economic benefit.
I may even buy a pair for my sorcerer - planar bind a bralani azata or erinyes for 12 days, and let them wear these gloves for the duration; very nice aerial support! Or lend them to the occasional archer or ranger party companion who (bizarrely) somehow hasn't already bought a pair themselves.
It's as much a no-brainer purchase as a golembane amulet or that new "I can hit swarms with weapons" item!
I think there should not be more power creep for archery. I mean TWF and dueling maybe need an overhaul but not archery. Clusterd shot ended the necesity of diferent arrows and point blank master + snap shot alsmot make the swift hitter obsolete.
So i think this bracers should not exist, or at least not for least of 20 K.
Funny enough, melee never needed different arrows to overcome DR. They just use the str x 1.5 and 3-for-1 PA ratio to put out such high damage per hit DR is not that big a deal.
Clustered Shots is 6 at earliest, 7 at earliest for anyone not a fighter. Melee can get pounce by dipping Synth Summoner at 1, or by level 10 on their own merits (Beastmorph Alchemist, Greater Beast Totem Barbarian), eliminating ranged combat's main advantage of always full attacking. So whatever.
Switch hitter SHOULD be obsolete. No other style of combat requires switching around your weapons so much as ranged combat pre-PBM. Flight makes ranged weapons unneeded for melee (and flying enemies w/ superior reach or ranged attacks are a LOT less common a problem than enemies closing to melee with you, besides). PBM makes melee weapons unnecessary for archers. Oh well.
You want to introduce feats or an archetype to make switch hitting good, go for it. But it should nto be required. There are plenty of movie and literary badasses shooting their bow just fine in the thick of melee combat, Legolas for example. Or as I've always said... "the day shooting you in the leg before you close into melee on me w/ your sword actually causes your combat performance to suffer due to the injury is the day I become ok w/ archers having problems when foes are in their face." "Realism" isn't something you get to pick and choose as it's convenient.
20k is ridiculous, unless your goal is to make them so that no on ever takes them, like (greater) bracers of archery. A summoner can get a 3/day lesser Selective Spell metamagic rod for 3000 gp to use w/ Black Tentacles. That is *far* stronger than this item.
@ Gustavo Iglesias: Yet an item like an Ioun Stone costs extra as a magic item because it does not take up a slot, yet functions like a slot item. Using a magic item who's base is multiplied for just being an item isn't exactly a good benchmarker to start with pricing a magic item.
Make a bracer that gives you +3 to perception, and keen. Now, what's the difference between adding a ioun stone that gives +1 competence bonus, or giving said bracers +1 competence bonus.
You also forget that there is pricing to factor in for partial benefits, as well as special powers that are limited in their uses. A +1 to hit does not equate to +1 Enhancement due to the simple fact that it's a separate bonus, and does not add to a weapon's damage. It's no different than a Masterwork weapon in terms of raw effect, so its price is going to be lower than a +1 enhancement as it is, and can only work for attacks with Ranged Weapons, which severely reduces the cost.
Nop, it does not. I can show you two examples: ioun stone, and lesser bracers of archery.
On top of this, the "Keen" property does not add to multipliers like the Aspect of the Falcon spell does, raising the cost some but its effects are also very limited in terms of what it affects (bows and crossbows), lowering the spell cost even further than what you would think it is.
That it only affects bows and crossbows is pointless, in an item designed for archers. That's like saying the Duelist gloves should be cheaper, because they only work for fighters.
+1 WITH A SINGLE weapon quality is 8,000 total. A +1 base price bonus (which is what Keen is considered as) is 2,000 gold.
Once again, NO. You can't give keen property to a masterwork item, you need it to be, at least, +1. So the keen property cost, at the very least, +6000. Do you want an example by the developers? The Scabbard of Keen Edges, which cost way more than 2000. And it's not even a permanent effect...
A use-activated True Strike item would most likely have a clause "like the spell," or "on command," so as not to make broken mechanics like you seem to think it would be. Even applying Metamagic Properties *cough*Quicken Spell*cough*, you'd be lucky to cast it Twice per turn, and even so would only work once per round regardless due to Action Economy. Saying some Archer clown can use a Spell 5 times a round (which equates to 5 Standard Actions) as well as using a Full Attack/Multishot or Rapid Shot (which equates to a variant of additional Standard Actions or a Full-Round Action),...
No. An action activated magic items works everytime you use it.
From pathfinder core rules:"Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic
item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does
not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves
performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity
in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical
effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the
item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra
time use, activation is not an action at all."
By the guidelines, I could make a Quiver that has a command word, and cast true strike. OR I can make it use-activated, paying slightly more. If the use activation is "drawing an arrow", it's subsumed into the action, and you get the magic effect everytime you use the item (ie: draw an arrow). Yes, it's completelly overpowered and stupid. That's my point. The guidelines *shouldn't* be set on stone. You shouldn't determine the cost by those guidelines, because they are broken, specially when dealing with low level spell effects that are continous, or use activated (the Quiver of Truestriking, the Brooch of Perpetual Shield, or a Hat of Enlarge Person, or this new Bracers of Falcon Aspect)
Yeah! Let's nerf one of the few options that let martials actually do their jobs! The only ones who have the right to be useful are casters!!!
You misunderstand, I'm not talking about the power differential between archers and casters, I'm talking about the difference between archers and melee.
This isn't the place for this discussion, but I've had several gaming sessions now where archers have significant advantages over melee, especially in upper level games.
While this item may be underpriced, it's far from gamebreaking. The problem is not that archers (or two-handers) are too powerful, but that most other options (TWF, dueling, combat maneuvers, etc) are subpar, or acceptable at best.
I'm not sure how you can say 2H melee is too powerful when archers and gunslingers do almost the same damage and do their full damage from round 1. Considering most fights only last 2-3 rounds, that's significant. In many cases, melee can't even get into combat in the 1st round (or not without significant support). There are many disadvantages to being melee.
Being ranged is the easy choice, especially since they've been supported so strongly with feats that overcome each and every weakness.
Also Ring of Evasion is pretty overpriced too.
I could list you off a dozen items where they replace or mimic feats and that all have similar costs.
Obviously when every magic item is reduced in price by a significant margin, it's going to add power creep into your game if your GM allows these items. So far PFS is allowing almost everything.
I would say the item is worth about 10000.
You misunderstand, I'm not talking about the power differential between archers and casters, I'm talking about the difference between archers and melee.
This isn't the place for this discussion, but I've had several gaming sessions now where archers have significant advantages over melee, especially in upper level games.
I understood what you meant (the caster comment was just a sarcastic remark). My point is that archers are just as good as damage focused characters should be. The problem is in melee combatants, not archers. We need more feats that increase mobility and expand options for melee, not needlessy nerf warriors who are effective at dealing damage, ranged or not. That's their job!
I'm not sure how you can say 2H melee is too powerful when archers and gunslingers do almost the same damage and do their full damage from round 1. Considering most fights only last 2-3 rounds, that's significant. In many cases, melee can't even get into combat in the 1st round (or not without significant support). There are many disadvantages to being melee.
I never said 2Hers are too powerful, only that they usually the best melee builds. Gunslinger have their own weaknesses, like extra expensive bullets and weapons, very short range, misfires, etc. BTW, while I like the class, I hate the firearms mechanics.
Being ranged is the easy choice, especially since they've been supported so strongly with feats that overcome each and every weakness.
Which is not necessarilly a bad thing. If you invest 8~10 feats into something, you damn well better be awesome at it. IMO, melee should be buffed and get more support, archery is okay as it is, but adding feats is not a bad thing. The one problem I hyave with archery is that is's boring to build. Nearly every archers get the same feats. I'd like to see feats that a good enough to make players actually have a real choice.
I could list you off a dozen items where they replace or mimic feats and that all have similar costs.
I know. I just made a remark about that particullar item.
Obviously when every magic item is reduced in price by a significant margin, it's going to add power creep into your game if your GM allows these items. So far PFS is allowing almost everything.
True. But these Bracers of Falcon, IMHO, are not something that can ruin a game session. There many other items to worry about. Sure, they could cost about 8~10k gp. But 25k? What's the point? Making sure we only buy then when we can waste gold? By then, these are not that useful anymore.
You're projecting, though. There is no requirement that a wand must be able to target any general target. The CRB says "...any 4th-level or lower spell that you know." It doesn't go on to say "...and that has a range other than Personal and/or a target other than You."Yes, clarification needs to be made for it; what I mean to say is that a wand should be able to cast spells usable on any general target, such as you, a creature (friend or foe), or a specific area (such as a square or square's corner for spell centering regarding AoE wands).
The thing is, while yes, the True Strike spell lists you (the caster) as a target, a Wand is a subject that discharges the spell and its listed description on the target you choose (which for examples, are what I listed above). It's limited, and thusly does not fully function as a Wand (which casts a spell on any specific target or area), and therefore is not able to be crafted as a Wand due to its limited function.
Technically, you would be right. But at the same time, a Wand's usage is primarily required to be of a target other than yourself, as per the description here:
To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area.
While you may be right in saying "Oh hey, I can just point at myself and I'll be super awesome!", that's all it accomplishes, which is not the design intent of a wand, which is to be used against other creatures (or specific squares/areas). In other words, you most likely won't find an item like that in a Market, much less as random loot. You could try to craft a Wand of True Strike, but chances are the GM will rule it as a void wand due to the lack of functionality as I've described above, but also because of game balance.
Clustered Shots is 6 at earliest, 7 at earliest for anyone not a fighter. Melee can get pounce by dipping Synth Summoner at 1, or by level 10 on their own merits (Beastmorph Alchemist, Greater Beast Totem Barbarian), eliminating ranged combat's main advantage of always full attacking. So whatever.
But it does make you restricted to Quadraped form for pounce.
Pounce is 1 point, Limbs 2. So you can afford both, but your Str/Con will suffer (mostly con as 13 Con is low).Makes you some sort of Insectiod man (4 legs, 2 arms) though. Good part, you can make any number of manufactored attacks, only natural limited (start with bite only).
@ Gustavo Iglesias: The difference is this nice block of text straight from the CRB...
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for amagic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a
character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to
that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds
the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the
cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of
invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
So that Ioun Stone not only saved you money, but it also saved you from exponentially increasing an item, which is something a GM tries to discourage when abused in such a manner as what you described.
The Ioun Stone and the Archery Bracers cannot be compared because the special effect from the Archery Bracers (granting proficiency) is a separate factor that affects its cost. Should that be removed, the bracers would change in value, and to say that said Bracers granting proficiency is a 500 gold value is a bunch of crap, nor can that even be proven. Give another, more defined (and non-extrapolating) example.
A Magical effect that has specific requirements (such as an alignment, class or skill to use) is stated to reduce the cost of the item. Additionally, many items have different, scaled pricing due to the power of the item, and what that power affects, and is correlated through the many magic items. By your logic, a Masterwork Weapon should be worth the same as a +1 Weapon (2,000 gold) since they both provide a +1 modifier to hit; this is not the case because not only is the Masterwork weapon a separate benefit from a separate source (that doesn't stack with said separate source), but also because that amount is limited to its effect, whereas a +1 weapon also gives a +1 to the total damage dealt while using that weapon to attack.
Back to the Bracers, giving a +1 competence bonus to hit only, on only ranged weapons, is something that can severely reduce the cost.
Again, a magical property's restrictions and requirements are important because it is stated within the book, both correlatory and directly, that such restrictions and requirements severely reduce the overall value (and thusly cost) of the item.
First off, the Keen effect handles all melee weapons (that can be applicable by Keen), which is a heck of a lot more broad than the Bracers (Bows and Crossbows). Secondly, the "Keen" effect from the Bracers is from the effects of a completely separate spell type, and having its limitations (and extra benefits) being "better" than what the Keen offers (while at the same time being severely restricted in its benefit) is something that you can't quantify the same as, especially since the spell in question and its effects (Aspect of the Falcon) cannot be applied to Weapons, whereas "Keen" is already a property as it is, and has its limitations and set benefits. The fact that it has a "Doesn't stack with Improved Critical or Keen weapons" clause is for balancing issues, because the Devs didn't want some 17-20 X3 Crossbow wielding hillbilly wanna-be to be that powerful.
Thirdly, the Keen benefit is classified as a +1 Base Price enhancement; a +1 Base Price Enhancement is worth 2,000 gold. The laws of Magic Weapons don't apply to Wondrous Items. This not only proves that a Keen Property would otherwise be considered 2,000 gold for a Wondrous item property, but also that it isn't possible for it to be 2,000 gold because the Base Price enhancement rules for Armor and Weapons aren't applied to Wondrous Item pricing.
I never said that a Use-Activated item can't be a free action/no action; what I said was even with an item that has the True Strike spell, if a Use-Activated item has either an "As the Spell" or "As a Swift/Immediate (or above) Action", it functions as that. And for balance purposes, it probably will have one of the above statements, because if it didn't, it would be a 20+ level item.
Looks to me like bracers of the falcon are either VERY underpriced, or the bracers of archery are VERY overpriced. In any event... something is certainly off.
FWIW I've always thought the BoA line was overpriced pretty badly.
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Technically, you would be right. But at the same time, a Wand's usage is primarily required to be of a target other than yourself, as per the description here:To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area.While you may be right in saying "Oh hey, I can just point at myself and I'll be super awesome!", that's all it accomplishes, which is not the design intent of a wand, which is to be used against other creatures (or specific squares/areas). In other words, you most likely won't find an item like that in a Market, much less as random loot. You could try to craft a Wand of True Strike, but chances are the GM will rule it as a void wand due to the lack of functionality as I've described above, but also because of game balance.
No, sorry, this is not correct. A wand is not, by RAW or RAI, "primarily required" to be used against targets other than yourself. It's not a weapon. It's just a spell storage device. We've just started playing Serpent's Skull, and one of the first two magic items we came across was a wand of mirror image. That spell, as you know, is range(personal) / target(you), as is the case for these wands all listed as standard items available to be found as part of random treasure in the GameMastery Guide: alter self, arcane sight, beast shape i thru iv, disguise self, divine power, elemental body, expeditious retreat, false life, fire shield, freedom of movement*, levitate*, longstrider, meld into stone, mnemonic enhancer, see invisibility and...true strike.
*These two specifically allow range(personal) / target(you) but can also be cast on other creatures.
@ Gustavo Iglesias: The difference is this nice block of text straight from the CRB...
So that Ioun Stone not only saved you money, but it also saved you from exponentially increasing an item, which is something a GM tries to discourage when abused in such a manner as what you described.Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for amagic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a
character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to
that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds
the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the
cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of
invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Oh, that's the point, exactly. The Ioun Stone is supposed to save you money, and that's why it cost 4000 for a +1 competence bonus. Yet the Falcon bracers, who are going the hard route (paying the full penalty of adding an aditional ability to the item. So even with Ioun Stone being a "money saver" as you state, it cost 4000g for +1 competence to hit. Bracers cost 4000g for +1 competence to hit, +3 to perception, and keen (when using bows) or increased crit multiplier (when using crossbows)
Thirdly, the Keen benefit is classified as a +1 Base Price enhancement; a +1 Base Price Enhancement is worth 2,000 gold. The laws of Magic Weapons don't apply to Wondrous Items. This not only proves that a Keen Property would otherwise be considered 2,000 gold for a Wondrous item property, but also that it isn't possible for it to be 2,000 gold because the Base Price enhancement rules for Armor and Weapons aren't applied to Wondrous Item pricing.
You are right that the laws of magic weapons don't apply to Wondrous. . So no, you can't value it as a flat +1 cost of 2000, as it would be the first enhancement of a weapon. Scabbard of Keen Edges cost 16,000 and does not even work continously.
The rules to be applied for prices in Woundrous item say:
"Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values"
So the first thing you have to do to value an item that gives keen, is comparing it to other similar items that give keen. The scabbard of keen edges is a wondrous item (like the bracers) that gives keen. The scabbard cost no slot, so it's more expensive, but you should start pricing the bracers comparing it to the scabbard. Halve the price because it's a slot item, you have 8000g. I'm not even going to mention that the scabbard is 3x day, and the bracers are continous, because I'm feeling so generous today. Now add the cost of +3 perception, +1 competence bonus, multiply it for 1.5, and you have the price for the bracers. Which is around 12 thousands, at least.
I would say the item is worth about 10000.
I agree.
Bracer of archery are not obsolete: they were a level 16 (and higher) item before, and they are a level 16 (and higher) item now, you just have to add the bracer of falcon aim as a secondary property.
On second thought I'm not sure this would be legal...
I thought we were talking about the bracers of archery, lesser.
It's a nice boon to crossbowmen, at any rate. I did some math on it, and with these items the crossbow can actually put out similar damage as a bow. It *does* require Thundering property to do this, but 17-20/x3 on a crossbow isn't too shabby, and that property, and the +9 damage from thundering helps out a lot.
I believe that since the crossbow starts at 19-20, you aren't stacking the threat range on it, but rather you're expanding your base threat range. In effect, it is only changing the critical multiplier.
It's a curious case, for sure, and it may just be me wanting crossbowmen to have something going for them. It's possible that "this effect" refers to the increase of the critical multiplier as well, but that's standard language for things that increase threat range, so I doubt that.
It's a curious case, for sure, and it may just be me wanting crossbowmen to have something going for them. It's possible that "this effect" refers to the increase of the critical multiplier as well, but that's standard language for things that increase threat range, so I doubt that.
Nope, it is less useful for crossbows.
Apparently this conversation has happened before. Can someone link to it?
I believe that since the crossbow starts at 19-20, you aren't stacking the threat range on it, but rather you're expanding your base threat range. In effect, it is only changing the critical multiplier.
It's a curious case, for sure, and it may just be me wanting crossbowmen to have something going for them. It's possible that "this effect" refers to the increase of the critical multiplier as well, but that's standard language for things that increase threat range, so I doubt that.
the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3. This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weaponCrossbows start at 19-20/x2 and become 19-20/x3
Bows start at 20/x3 and become 19-20/x3How do you get to 17-20/x3?
I don't see what's curious about it at all. It seems very clear.
I'm not sure what you mean by "expanding your base threat range".
My ideas was to take Improved Critical to expand the base threat range from 19-20 to be 17-20, while keeping the Critical Multiplier, which is the only thing that was modified by that part of aspect of the falcon.
@ Gustavo Iglesias: Yeah, it does. There's another clause regarding Ioun Stones, saying that slotless items (such as Ioun Stones) cost double than it would if it were part of a slot. This would mean by RAW that if the effects of the Ioun Stone were applied to the Bracers, it would only be worth 2,000 gold, not the 4,000 that the Ioun Stone is priced at (due to it being a slotless item). In terms of Wondrous to Magic Weapon price equivalents, it's no different than a +1 enhancement from a weapon, except without the damage (which should decrease the price even further since it's a lesser property).
And yet the effects from Keen and the effects from the Aspect spell do not stack. They are separate spells, and thusly separate stats and entities. The Keen spell (and property) does not offer the +1 to ranged weapons, nor does it offer the +3 to Perception checks. It's a completely different spell, so saying that Keen is an acceptable method to price it when it's not even of the same caliber of spell (in terms of raw effect) does not add up, even if the effects of the spell are nowhere near the same.
It's the same thing as me saying that I should be able to cast Color Spray at the same level and effect of Prismatic Spray, because they both have similar factors. No, they do not; they are two completely different spells, regardless of similar factors, and therefore is not an accurate way to judge the pricing of the item.
While the RAW stats of the item are powerful, the spell itself has its limitations, and just because the item is so powerful due to said limitations is how it keeps its balance. You think some melee barbarian is going to make much use of these bracers? No. You think a Throw-build character will be making full use of the bracers? No. Will an Archer/Bow-build character make full use of the bracers? Yes.
Because it's for such a limited class/play-style, of course the price will be lower, and the whole "Keen" property from it is very limited (and is not even on a similar level). Just because it's designed for a specific playstyle does not mean that its price should not differ.
@ Damon Griffin: I sure as heck hope Paizo knew what they were doing when they were applying such spells to Wands. Even so, the design intent of a wand is for it to be used on other creatures as well; while this has no part in RAW, RAI would dictate that a Wand created only for yourself is not exactly a Wand, and would function exactly the same were it a Wondrous Item instead. By that logic, a charged/charges per day Wondrous Item with the True Strike spell should be of the same function (albeit a different price, which makes no sense).
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@ Gustavo Iglesias: Yeah, it does. There's another clause regarding Ioun Stones, saying that slotless items (such as Ioun Stones) cost double than it would if it were part of a slot. This would mean by RAW that if the effects of the Ioun Stone were applied to the Bracers, it would only be worth 2,000 gold, not the 4,000 that the Ioun Stone is priced at (due to it being a slotless item). In terms of Wondrous to Magic Weapon price equivalents, it's no different than a +1 enhancement from a weapon, except without the damage (which should decrease the price even further since it's a lesser property).
It is different than +1 enhancement, because it is *not* enhancement, and thus stacks with your magical weapon. That's why "luck" or "sacred" bonus are more expensive as well. And that's why masterwork is so cheap, it does not stack with enhancement.
But I agree, the base bonus for a +1 competence to hit in a slot item is 2000, half of the slotless Ioun Stone. Then add 50%, because it's not the first property of the item, there you go, +3000 for the +1 competence to hit, in a bracer that already has other stuff
And yet the effects from Keen and the effects from the Aspect spell do not stack. They are separate spells, and thusly separate stats and entities. The Keen spell (and property) does not offer the +1 to ranged weapons, nor does it offer the +3 to Perception checks. It's a completely different spell, so saying that Keen is an acceptable method to price it when it's not even of the same caliber of spell (in terms of raw effect) does not add up, even if the effects of the spell are nowhere near the same.
Oh, sure, it's not equal. Falcon is BETTER, as it gives you increased multiplier with a crossbow. Yes, they aren't the same. But they are similar. So similar that even *YOU* were using the "keen" property in weapons to claim it should be 2000g for a +1 enhancement. *YOU*, not me. Later, when you said (again, *YOU*, not me) that the weapon rules shouldn't apply (because I pointed that with weapon rules, keen cost +6000 at the very least), you moved the goal and said it is a wondrous item. I agreed, after *you* said it. Actually I agree with you in both statements: it should be compared to keen (something you did), but shouldn't follow weapon rules, it should follow wondreus items rules (which you said too). Sadly the only wondreous item that gives keen is the scabbard. That bracers are limited to bows and crossbows put it in the same league than the scabbard, actually, as only blades can be put in scabbards (so no spears, or axes, or picks, only blades). Same limitation. Bracers use a slot, so half the cost: 8000. I'm feeling very generous, so I'm not going to even value the fact that the falcon bracers are continous, and the scabbard is 3/day. I give this for free.
So, a woundrous item that gives keen to a limited subset of weapons cost 16000. A woundrous item that gives a subset of weapons a similar effect, (per your own definition a couple posts ago when you compared it to weapon keen enhancement) should cost *at least* 8000, and that's giving the continous effect for free. Add the +3000 from a second property +1 competence bonus, you have 11.000. Add +3 to perception, you have 12350. At the bare minimum, not counting the continous effect of "keen".
While the RAW stats of the item are powerful, the spell itself has its limitations, and just because the item is so powerful due to said limitations is how it keeps its balance. You think some melee barbarian is going to make much use of these bracers? No. You think a Throw-build character will be making full use of the bracers? No. Will an Archer/Bow-build character make full use of the bracers? Yes.
Pointless. A Holy avenger is not useful for a barbarian thrower either. Fact is both the lesser archery bracer and the falcon bracer are for archer builds. And the falcon bracer is *massively* better, while costing 20% less.
My ideas was to take Improved Critical to expand the base threat range from 19-20 to be 17-20, while keeping the Critical Multiplier, which is the only thing that was modified by that part of aspect of the falcon.
The spell does not allow it.
The spell does not allow it.
My ideas was to take Improved Critical to expand the base threat range from 19-20 to be 17-20, while keeping the Critical Multiplier, which is the only thing that was modified by that part of aspect of the falcon.
So if someone already has a 17-20/x2 range on his crossbow, from improved critial, and puts the bracers on or casts the spell, it becomes 19-20/x3?
I wonder how many other items that punish you for feat choices, or at least invalidate a feat, there are. The philosophy of Pathfinder is usually to not do that.
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Since the spell does not increase your crossbow's critical threat range, there is nothing stopping any effect increasing the threat range to apply. The spell specifically does not stack with any other effect increasing the threat range ; but a crossbow's threat range does not get increased by the spell, so there is no possible stacking between the spell and a feat... except of course if you find a 20x2 crossbow.
We already have the official Falcata as a possible 17-20x3 weapon ; I sure hope you will be unable to tell me with a straight face that the crossbowman does not deserve to shine a bit on his own schtick after 5 official books.
I only used that as per a comparison in raw output price. In truth, it wouldn't even be accurate to use that because the spell it's infused with functions just the same as the Spell's description.
It's only a first level spell (though only accessible through Druids and Rangers by RAW), whereas the required spell needed for Keen is of a higher level, and has a separate (yet similar) property altogether. The spell functions as a "Polymorph" effect, granting you those specific properties. The Keen property does not. This is why I am saying using the Scabbard to compare the price for a subject that, while it offers similar qualities, comprises from a completely separate type and source of magic, meaning there is no comparison to make regarding these two objects.
In addition, Keen doesn't add to the multiplier of a crossbow like the Falcon spell does, and while there is a clause saying "This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon," it doesn't change the fact that its effects still vary depending upon the weapon you use, whereas Keen's does not (and is otherwise only noted to not affect specific weapon damage types, while on the other hand the Falcon spell only lists specific types). (Ironically, I would be incorrect in saying that a Crossbow user cannot become 17-20 X3 with this spell after re-reading the text and as Maxx pointed out, but that is for another thread.)
And yes, I said that because the pricing for Magic Weapons and Wondrous Items are two separate entities, meaning we cannot compare the pricing of a +1 Keen Weapon to a Keen Property on a Wondrous Item (which is something that the Falcon spell offers similar to, but at the same time separate due to its different spell effect). They are what they are, and that is that.
Of course, I do agree the pricing is off, but the changes would result in either adding more to the Bracers of Archery (which won't happen), or adjusting the pricing of the Falcon Bracers, which at the same time can't exactly be done because there is no means to quantify it, since it pretty much gives you a permanent spell property (which is a Polymorph effect, and doesn't stack with other Polymorph effects) on you.
The spell does not allow it.
My ideas was to take Improved Critical to expand the base threat range from 19-20 to be 17-20, while keeping the Critical Multiplier, which is the only thing that was modified by that part of aspect of the falcon.So if someone already has a 17-20/x2 range on his crossbow, from improved critial, and puts the bracers on or casts the spell, it becomes 19-20/x3?
I wonder how many other items that punish you for feat choices, or at least invalidate a feat, there are. The philosophy of Pathfinder is usually to not do that.
Yes, by Raw it seems so.
Hat of Disguise has lots of weaknesses a +10 item won't (True seeing, touch, only works for 10 mins at a time, can't change race and it doesn't work on sound, the last one is a bigger problem than in 3.5 as any perceptive person is automatically good at hearing too now), so not an even comparison.Also using the Scabbard of Keen Edges has the same problem as comparing it to BoA does, SoKE is also an item that is hideously overpriced and never used for it (plus it needs you to blow a turn to activate it).
Even ignoring the problems of SoKE, the BotF
1: Are a sloted item (Scabbard is double price from being unsloted)
2: Only instead of anything that can fit in the scabbard (remember magic items reshape as needed, so it effectively works on any slashing or piercing weapon)
3: Doesn't have an obvious visual manifestation
The Hat of disguise also allow you to change disguise as a free action (don the hat), instead of several minutes using a disguise (with or without bonus), so that also counts.
About your counterarguments to SoKE
1) I already accounted for it being slotless. Dividing it by half, it's 8000g. Then you have to add +3 perception and +1 attack. And I give you the continous effect for free (the SoKE is 3/day). I'm THAT generous.
2) A subset of weapons is a subset of weapons. The bracers work for shortbow, longbow, composite short bow, composite longbow, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, hand crossbow, repeating crossbow, and double crossbow. Arguabilly for ballistas too. The scabbard works for any bladed weapon (so no, no all slashing and piercing. You can't fit a pike, or halberd, or great axe or kama there. Show me where it says raw that I can reshape my halberd as a sword as needed. Because the reverse would be quite useful, I need a reach weapon, reshape the sword into a pike). The text in the scabbard says "This scabbard can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it." The fighter groups are quite similar: heavy blades + light blades vs bows/crossbows. I'm sure the slight difference is not worth a 12.000g discount.
3) The BotF doesn't have obvious phisical manifestation either. The item says so. "They continually grant the wearer the benefits of the aspect of the falcon spell, though without the spell’s physical transformation"
4000 for the BotF is obviously underpriced. Either that, or every other item in the game is overpriced by comparison. Including Scabbard of Keen Edges, Ioun Stones, and Bracers of Lesser Archery.
It's only a first level spell (though only accessible through Druids and Rangers by RAW),
Shield is also a first level spell. So is protection from evil, true strike, or enlarge. That does not mean that using the guidelines to create continous (or use activated in the case of true strike) magic items with those effects for 4000g is a wise idea, or a balanced one. A continous first level magic item that gives you +4 shield bonus while using a two handed weapon, by 4000g, is NOT a good idea. That the spell is first level, means jack.
In addition, Keen doesn't add to the multiplier of a crossbow like the Falcon spell does
I fail to see how being better makes it cheaper
Of course, I do agree the pricing is off, ...
Well, we agree on that.
It's only a first level spell (though only accessible through Druids and Rangers by RAW),Shield is also a first level spell. So is protection from evil, true strike, or enlarge. That does not mean that using the guidelines to create continous (or use activated in the case of true strike) magic items with those effects for 4000g is a wise idea, or a balanced one. A continous first level magic item that gives you +4 shield bonus while using a two handed weapon, by 4000g, is NOT a good idea. That the spell is first level, means jack.
In addition, Keen doesn't add to the multiplier of a crossbow like the Falcon spell doesI fail to see how being better makes it cheaper
Of course, I do agree the pricing is off, ...Well, we agree on that.
The thing is that the spell is classified as a different type of magic altogether; it's a polymorph effect that grants those bonuses, something completely different from the Keen spell.
Even so, the Scabbard doesn't take up a Slot. This doubles its cost for a slotted item (which would otherwise be 8,000 gold, ironically, the same cost as a +2 Base Price Modifier for a Weapon), and the effect works for all weapons that would normally be affected by Keen, while the other is quite limited to its effects.
In addition, you can't quantify the spell's effect to function similar to that of a Base Price Weapon Modifier like Keen, because not only is the spell not applicable to a Weapon, but also because its effects would otherwise be placed on a Wondrous Item, a Magic Item category that is priced and created completely different from that of a Weapon, whereas Keen does not have this barrier.
I never said that the price for either of the Bracers were fine as they were; I wouldn't care one way or the other, since it doesn't really impact me, but for game balance purposes, you can't exactly compare the price of the spell it has applied to it (Aspect of the Falcon) to a spell that, while it has similar properties, also has its different properties and limitations, and is of a separate quantifiable category altogether (Keen Edge).
The thing is that the spell is classified as a different type of magic altogether; it's a polymorph effect that grants those bonuses, something completely different from the Keen spell.Even so, the Scabbard doesn't take up a Slot. This doubles its cost for a slotted item (which would otherwise be 8,000 gold, ironically, the same cost as a +2 Base Price Modifier for a Weapon), and the effect works for all weapons that would normally be affected by Keen, while the other is quite limited to its effects.
I think I have answered this same question like a dozen times. Sure, it's slotless. So the base price is 8000. So the bracers should START at 8000, then add +3 perception and +1 competence bonus to hit, with extra 50% cost...
On the other hand... NO, THE SCABBARD DOES NOT AFFECT ALL WEAPONS NORMALLY AFFECTED TO KEEN. I also have answered this a couple times already. It affects BLADES. So it does not affect axes, or halberds, or spears, or lances. Only BLADES.
"This scabbard can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it."
So the scabbard works in weapons like scimitar, longsowrd, shorsword, greatsword, dagger, katana, and so on, and the Bracers work on Longbow, Shortbow, Composite version of both, heavy crossbow, hand crossbow, reapeating crossbow, light crossbow and double crossbow. They are both limited to a subset of weapons. And the scabbard is 3x day, mind you.
In addition, you can't quantify the spell's effect to function similar to that of a Base Price Weapon Modifier like Keen, because not only is the spell not applicable to a Weapon, but also because its effects would otherwise be placed on a Wondrous Item, a Magic Item category that is priced and created completely different from that of a Weapon, whereas Keen does not have this barrier.
Ironically, the price is similar though (8000 for a non-slotless scabbard, 8000 for the lowest priced +1 keen weapon you can buy). Anyways, I'm not comparing it to weapon enhancement (that was YOU who did it, I only corrected your wrong math). I was comparing it to a woudrous item, the Scabbard. As the scabbard is slotless, I divide the price by half.
I never said that the price for either of the Bracers were fine as they were; I wouldn't care one way or the other, since it doesn't really impact me, but for game balance purposes, you can't exactly compare the price of the spell it has applied to it ...
Of course you can. That's the entire point. If applying the spell effect as a continous effect make the item completelly overpowered compared to other, you shouldn't be using the guidelines that are based on spell level x caster level. PERIOD. A 4000g item that gives you +4 Shield bonus hand-free, and inmunity to magic missiles, is too powerful. Regardless of the spell effect.
Similarly, a use-activated true strike quiver, or a continous effect Hat of Enlarge, wouldn't be allowed in the 4000g range. A continous effect Haste item would make the Boots of Haste obsolete. And so on.
For Christ sake... the FEAT to get improved critical isn't available up to level 8-9 for most classes. This bracer can be bought at level 4, with no problem. I don't care if the devs use the cracked Ioun Stone, or the Scabbard of Keen Edges, or Bracers of Archery as the starting item to price the Bracers of Falcon, or whatever other method they want, but they SHOULDNT use the Caster level x spell level formulae. It's idiotic. It leads to constant effect Shields and Enlarge hats that cost 4000g. Or bracers that give your archer a feat they can't even buy yet, PLUS a +1 competence bonus (that would cost them 4000 otherwise) and +3 perception . It's plainly wrong.
^ "Blade" can mean the part of the weapon that slashes or pierces, not just a sword or knife with such a part.
Err... no.
"This scabbard can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it."
Blades are defined in the game. They are those weapons under "light blades" and "heavy blades" weapon groups. A Halberd is not a blade. And for sure, it's not similar to a knife, dagger or sword
Its on command (and doesn't say it is not a standard action), not continuous. Remember that damn near everything at higher levels has some extraordinary sense that foils it instantly (its the same reason Invisibility isn't broken).
The Hat of disguise also allow you to change disguise as a free action (don the hat)
It doesn't say it's a command item either. I understand it as a use activated item, not a command item.
See the wording in this
"This apparently normal hat allows its wearer to alter her appearance as with a disguise self spell. As part of the disguise, the hat can be changed to appear as a comb, ribbon, headband, cap, coif, hood, helmet, and so on"
And compare to this:
"his attractive silver headband is decorated with a number of small red and orange gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Charisma of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn"
or this:
"This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Charisma-based checks."
It's not continous, but you don't need to command it with a command word. You just use it (don it), and don a hat is a free action.
The Minor Displacement cloak works "similar to the blur spell" and it doesn't need a command word, so I don't see why "as with a disguise self spell" is more important than "the wearer", or why the wording "as with a disguise self spell" means you need a command word and/or standard action.
The amulet of proof against detection protect "the wearer" just "as the spell nondetection does". Do you also think the amulet of proof against detection requires a command? Does it work 8 hours only? The wording in Hat of disguise is similar.
So, what is the idea here? Make this item so expensive that it becomes effectivelly useless, as is the case with Bracers of Archery?
Can't we agree with a price between 8000gp and 10000gp and be done with it?
I don't see the problem of an useful item obsoleting overpriced stuff that noone buys anyway (at least, not before 15th level... And even then, there are lots of better things to buy).
The fact that one option sucks should not be a reason for all others to suck equally.
8000 gp is too much. I don't really care if it stays at 2000, or up to 5000 seems fair.
"The fact that one option sucks should not be a reason for all others to suck equally."
If only this were true, poor monks would have an unarmed-only AoMF by now...
8000 gp is too much. I don't really care if it stays at 2000, or up to 5000 seems fair.
I agree. But since people really seems to want to make this more expensive, at least 8000gp is worth considering.
"The fact that one option sucks should not be a reason for all others to suck equally."
If only this were true, poor monks would have an unarmed-only AoMF by now...
I'll never understand the argument about "not invalidating Core options". Ninjas and Vivisectionists were the last nail in the Rogue's coffin (not to mention archeologist bards), and Inquisitors are better than Ranger at pretty much everything.
I guess obsoleting classes is a-okay, but an ultra-expensive item? Nope, those are sitting on a golden pedestal on holy ground...
But I digress... Honestly, this item may be a bit underpriced but it's far from broken or game-changing. Besides, it's one of the few wrist items worth taking.