8000 gp is too much. I don't really care if it stays at 2000, or up to 5000 seems fair.I agree. But since people really seems to want to make this more expensive, at least 8000gp is worth considering.
I guess obsoleting classes is a-okay, but an ultra-expensive and (almost) completely useless low quality bracer item? Nope, those are sitting on a golden pedestal on holy ground..."The fact that one option sucks should not be a reason for all others to suck equally."
If only this were true, poor monks would have an unarmed-only AoMF by now...
Added the bolded part for more lulz.
But I agree; the only thing an Inquisitor will never have that a Ranger can have, is a super awesome Animal Companion.
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But I agree; the only thing an Inquisitor will never have that a Ranger can have, is a super awesome Animal Companion.
Unless he chooses the Feather domain, in which case the Inquisitor gets a better animal companion (he can pick druid choices too!) and a nice "1/2 your level as a bonus to Perception checks". Plus a slight bonus to Fly skill.
You can walk away now, Rangers, in case you don't know where is the exit, just follow Rogues and Monks, okay?
But I agree; the only thing an Inquisitor will never have that a Ranger can have, is a super awesome Animal Companion.Unless he chooses the Feather domain, in which case the Inquisitor gets a better animal companion (he can pick druid choices too!) and a nice "1/2 your level as a bonus to Perception checks". Plus a slight bonus to Fly skill.
You can walk away now, Rangers, in case you don't know where is the exit, just follow Rogues and Monks, okay?
As a lover of Rangers, I say good friend: D:<
On another note, I really need to write an alternative to the standard item creation rules. I love the item creation rules, but they are difficult to understand and some things are not clearly spelled out and some things are not limited as they should be.
But I agree; the only thing an Inquisitor will never have that a Ranger can have, is a super awesome Animal Companion.Unless he chooses the Feather domain, in which case the Inquisitor gets a better animal companion (he can pick druid choices too!) and a nice "1/2 your level as a bonus to Perception checks". Plus a slight bonus to Fly skill.
You can walk away now, Rangers, in case you don't know where is the exit, just follow Rogues and Monks, okay?
As a lover of Rangers, I say good friend: D:<
On another note, I really need to write an alternative to the standard item creation rules. I love the item creation rules, but they are difficult to understand and some things are not clearly spelled out and some things are not limited as they should be.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Rangers too. In fact, the 1st character I've ever played was a Ranger, and they're still my favorite class. But, balance-wise, they are quite unimpressive.
But, hey, Bracers of the Falcon is very good for them. Except people want to charge 25k for it, so noone ca benefit from the item.
Hey, I play Inquisitors and Rangers.
Rangers are much better at mastering a weapon style and need less buffing.
FE and FT are awesome.
Inquisitors don't replace Rangers anywhere near as much as a Vivisectionist replaces a rogue.
Or even how a Cavalier replaces a fighter.
We're getting off-topic as to the point of this thread, which is about bracers "obsoleting" bracers that obsoleted a greater version of the same bracers.
The point is that the bracers are classified as a lower level spell, not three different effects, which is what the entire spell encompasses. You can't label it as "Keen" because the spell it provides is not on the same level, caster or spell wise, of "Keen". So the price will be lower in that regard.
And no, pricing it the same as the Keen Scabbard will make it just as useless or not even desired at all, just as the Greater Bracers of Archery.
Hey, I play Inquisitors and Rangers.
Rangers are much better at mastering a weapon style and need less buffing.
FE and FT are awesome.Inquisitors don't replace Rangers anywhere near as much as a Vivisectionist replaces a rogue.
Or even how a Cavalier replaces a fighter.
I suppose that's true... Rangers do have a thing or two in their favor... Not enough to compete with a Inquisitor, IMO, but they do.
Rogues on the other hand... Yeah, they are as obsolete as one can be.
I really didn't ever think that Cavaliers replace Fighters. I've never played a Cavalier, or even felt like playing one. I don't really care for the class. It's the one class I've never even looked for builds, tips, tricks, guides or anything.
Are they that much better than fighters? I've never even seen one in play, noone in my gaming group seems interested in Cavaliers. At all.
I guess obsoleting classes is a-okay, but an ultra-expensive item? Nope, those are sitting on a golden pedestal on holy ground...
A cracked ioun stone that gives you +1 competence bonus to hit for 4000g is not "an ultra-expensive item". And a bracer that gives you that, plus +3 to the best skill there is, plus the equivalent of keen arrows for your bow, is worth much more than that. At 10.000g, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
I disagree, lesser bracer of archery were not obsolete. The greater one, however, always were.
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We're getting off-topic as to the point of this thread, which is about bracers "obsoleting" bracers that obsoleted a greater version of the same bracers.
The point is that the bracers are classified as a lower level spell, not three different effects, which is what the entire spell encompasses. You can't label it as "Keen" because the spell it provides is not on the same level, caster or spell wise, of "Keen". So the price will be lower in that regard.
And no, pricing it the same as the Keen Scabbard will make it just as useless or not even desired at all, just as the Greater Bracers of Archery.
Man, you have some warped sense of balance. At 20 grand, I'd get the bracers of the falcon for any archers. Hell considering how out of touch bracer prices are, I kinda wonder if they forgot a zero. In anycase, the price isn't really the issue with this item...the fact that they made a persistent round per level spell item however is. That is just a bad bad trend. The only WORSE thing they could have done is make this thing use activated and there by open the floodgate of a use activated true strike items that every muchkin drools over.
Man, you have some warped sense of balance. At 20 grand, I'd get the bracers of the falcon for any archers. Hell considering how out of touch bracer prices are, I kinda wonder if they forgot a zero. In anycase, the price isn't really the issue with this item...the fact that they made a persistent round per level spell item however is. That is just a bad bad trend. The only WORSE thing they could have done is make this thing use activated and there by open the floodgate of a use activated true strike items that every muchkin drools over.We're getting off-topic as to the point of this thread, which is about bracers "obsoleting" bracers that obsoleted a greater version of the same bracers.
The point is that the bracers are classified as a lower level spell, not three different effects, which is what the entire spell encompasses. You can't label it as "Keen" because the spell it provides is not on the same level, caster or spell wise, of "Keen". So the price will be lower in that regard.
And no, pricing it the same as the Keen Scabbard will make it just as useless or not even desired at all, just as the Greater Bracers of Archery.
It's a matter of preference. What one cries wolf over, the other will be chilling with a beer. At any rate...
As I've said in my first post, while the Falcon Bracers off those extra benefits, the Archery Bracers, again offer something the Falcon Bracers don't: Proficiency.
Generally, a character who is not proficient with Bows or Crossbows (and there are those classes) but wants to use them will need the Bracers of Archery in order to use them, period. These Bracers, in my opinion, are meant to give other types of versatility to other classes who can't use such weapons; Clerics, Oracles, Druids, etc. fit under this category.
Optimization aside, those Bracers, I have found, have a purpose, and that purpose is most certainly more valuable than a +1 or +2 to hit or a skill check. Let's see a character try to optimize with using a piece of equipment they are not proficient with.
On top of which, it most certainly makes for a better cash cow than the Falcon Bracers, so a PC selling Archery Bracers as if they were a merchant would definitely make a larger profit than the Falcon Bracers due to the sheer number difference.
Man, you have some warped sense of balance. At 20 grand, I'd get the bracers of the falcon for any archers. Hell considering how out of touch bracer prices are, I kinda wonder if they forgot a zero. In anycase, the price isn't really the issue with this item...the fact that they made a persistent round per level spell item however is. That is just a bad bad trend. The only WORSE thing they could have done is make this thing use activated and there by open the floodgate of a use activated true strike items that every muchkin drools over.
Aspect of the Falcon is a minute/level buff, priced exactly where the item pricing guidelines would put it.
What's so good about a use activated true strike item? It still takes a standard action to activate. A quickened true strike item is ludicrously expensive, and at the point you can get it the effect is more like +2 or +3 to a martial whose first iterative attack is almost a guaranteed hit anyway. If you meant continuous, that's not possible for true strike due to its unique duration.
Man, you have some warped sense of balance. At 20 grand, I'd get the bracers of the falcon for any archers. Hell considering how out of touch bracer prices are, I kinda wonder if they forgot a zero. In anycase, the price isn't really the issue with this item...the fact that they made a persistent round per level spell item however is. That is just a bad bad trend. The only WORSE thing they could have done is make this thing use activated and there by open the floodgate of a use activated true strike items that every muchkin drools over.Aspect of the Falcon is a minute/level buff, priced exactly where the item pricing guidelines would put it.
What's so good about a use activated true strike item? It still takes a standard action to activate. A quickened true strike item is ludicrously expensive, and at the point you can get it the effect is more like +2 or +3 to a martial whose first iterative attack is almost a guaranteed hit anyway. If you meant continuous, that's not possible for true strike due to its unique duration.
Pretty much this. The item's pricing, due to it being 1st level, could very well be even lower, since a Permanent effect item is SL X CL X 2,000 = 1 X 1 X 2,000 = 2,000 gold, equating to 1,000 gold to craft it. (There may be other factors in this, but this is the general formula.)
However, a "use-actived" or "command word" item would have to have a "As a Standard Action" or "Casts as the True Strike Spell" clause in order for it to be a Standard Action; it is otherwise a Free Action, or perhaps no action at all (though obviously the bonus it grants would not stack).
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Man, you have some warped sense of balance. At 20 grand, I'd get the bracers of the falcon for any archers. Hell considering how out of touch bracer prices are, I kinda wonder if they forgot a zero. In anycase, the price isn't really the issue with this item...the fact that they made a persistent round per level spell item however is. That is just a bad bad trend. The only WORSE thing they could have done is make this thing use activated and there by open the floodgate of a use activated true strike items that every muchkin drools over.Aspect of the Falcon is a minute/level buff, priced exactly where the item pricing guidelines would put it.
What's so good about a use activated true strike item? It still takes a standard action to activate. A quickened true strike item is ludicrously expensive, and at the point you can get it the effect is more like +2 or +3 to a martial whose first iterative attack is almost a guaranteed hit anyway. If you meant continuous, that's not possible for true strike due to its unique duration.
My bad on the duration of aspect of the falcon...don't even own the book that has that spell. Course I should have checked the PRD...meh that's what I get for being lazy. Well that is LESS bad. And no, the price is NOT where even the magic item guideline prices it. This is a CL 3 item...not 1 so if your gonna get all rules lawyery and use the guideline as an absolute, the bracers should be 12000. Course to be asbolutely rules lawyers, the item should have been priced off effects BEFORE they used the formula. And yes a +1 to hit, +3 to a skill and what amounts to a keen effect for bows or a crit increase for crossbows are absolutely effects that have relivant counterparts in the magic item list.
Use activated is a FREE action that is subsumed with the action needed to use said item. Like a quiver of true strike that gives you true strike EVERY time to draw an arrow. If you fail to realize why a use activated true strike is borked beyond belief for 2200GP, then yeah, you kinda proved my point about people who are okay with these bracers not really understanding what is borked.
Why is CL 1 pricing not accurate? A ranger casts it as a first level spell, and the lowest caster level they can cast it with is CL 1. 2000 x 1(CL) x 1(SL) x 2. 4000gp is exactly correct.
The type of action use activated requires is subject to mediation from your GM. The assumed action is a standard action. If your GM lets you make a quiver that casts true strike on you every time you draw an arrow, that's a problem with your game, not the item creation rules.
Edit: Upon review, it would have to be a standard action, unless you decide to move away from the rules.
If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Manifestation of a spell effect, such as true strike, retains a casting time. Using an item that casts true strike is a standard action, and this clause could likely make an item that casts quickened true strike impossible as well.
Pricing bonuses is supposed to be based off the bonus, not the spell, as has been pointed out earlier.
Definitely not priced as they should be.
As for Caster level...a problem for another day.
==Aelryinth
Pricing bonuses is supposed to be based off the bonus, not the spell, as has been pointed out earlier.
Definitely not priced as they should be.
As for Caster level...a problem for another day.
==Aelryinth
...how would you recommend that? There's no set value for bonuses to-hit.
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Why is CL 1 pricing not accurate? A ranger casts it as a first level spell, and the lowest caster level they can cast it with is CL 1. 2000 x 1(CL) x 1(SL) x 2. 4000gp is exactly correct.
The type of action use activated requires is subject to mediation from your GM. The assumed action is a standard action. If your GM lets you make a quiver that casts true strike on you every time you draw an arrow, that's a problem with your game, not the item creation rules.
Edit: Upon review, it would have to be a standard action, unless you decide to move away from the rules.
If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.Manifestation of a spell effect, such as true strike, retains a casting time. Using an item that casts true strike is a standard action, and this clause could likely make an item that casts quickened true strike impossible as well.
Umm because the item itself is listed as a CL 3 item maybe? The fact that you can make it a CL 1 item for 4k is irrelvant as far as rules lawyering goes to the fact that the item in the book was made as a CL 3 item. And there is a mechanical difference between the bracers at CL 1 and CL 3 as the CL 3 is harder to supress via dispel for example.
Umm are you even reading the same rules I am? You can right there in the rules say that true strike use activated quiver is subsumed in the act of drawing an arrow...then it is a none action...not even a free action. The first part is for is your making a use activated latern that detects magic. You need to light your lantern before you use it...lighting said lantern is a standard action and it detects magic as long as it is lit. So yeah, you wrong, you can make a quiver of true strike that gives you +20 to hit with ever arrow you draw from it for 2200 GP by the guidelines...but NOT the rules. The rule is price by EFFECT FIRST.
Aspect of the Falcon is a minute/level buff, priced exactly where the item pricing guidelines would put it.
The problem with the pricing guidelines is that they are not balanced. A "ring that gives you constant shield" is much better than a "ring of force shield", or a "brooch of shielding"
What's so good about a use activated true strike item? It still takes a standard action to activate.
One would hope so. But not necesarelly.
"If the use of the item takes time before a magicaleffect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the
item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra
time use, activation is not an action at all."
Sure nobody wants to see this in their tables, ever. And allowing it would not only be a big mistake, but a slippery slope that would destroy the game balance in a race to arms. Power creep is dangerous for a game. That's why I don't want to see "hats of enlarge person" that constantly give you large size for 4000g, or "broochs of permanent Shield" that make you inmune to magic missiles and give +4 AC to two handed warriors, even if they are "priced by the guidelines".
BTW, the guidelines say you *should* price the item by comparing its effect to other existing similar items (like ioun stones, googles of the eagle, and scabbards of keen edges, which are all of them similar, when not identical, to the bracers). *ONLY* if you can't find a similar item, you price the item by the guidelines of Caster Level x Spell Level.
...how would you recommend that? There's no set value for bonuses to-hit.Pricing bonuses is supposed to be based off the bonus, not the spell, as has been pointed out earlier.
Definitely not priced as they should be.
As for Caster level...a problem for another day.
==Aelryinth
Use the cracked Ioun Stone that gives you +1 competence bonus to hit as a reference. It's 4000, for a slotless item. Make it 2000 for a non-slotless item.
Then you can have the cost of a +3 to a skill. That's 900g
Then you have the "similar to keen" effect. Yes, it's not *identical* to keen, but it's "similar". A scabbard of keen edges cost 16000, and it's slotless. Make it 8000 for a slot item.
Now you add 50% of the two cheapest abilities, for items that have more than one ability.
There you go, the bracers cost, by effect, around 12350g. Round it to 12000 or 12500, and you are done.
That sounds just about right, Gustavo.
You might be able to knock off 25% of the TH bonus because the bonus to hit is restricted to missile weapons, so 12k sounds about right.
However, the keen effect is continuous, and the scabbard is uses/day. Both are restricted by weapon type. So the 8k is actually about 12k, for a third level spell effect granted by a first level spell...
So the actual price is 12k + 150% of 1500+900, or right about 14500 gp.
==Aelryinth
A continuous true strike would take one of the main fun aspects out of the game, rolling a dice and seing if you hit or not. Having little boni now and then improves your chances...a little, what is a big difference to a constant +20. Even a wizard would hit nearly always on low rolls like that. The intention of this spell is a completely different one, like for a low BAB type to hit the next touch attack once a day and make a big show of it.
Pathfinder and magic items face a big problem sometimes.
With some races and classes you just can´t play the cool stuff you want to because the BAB might be to low or you just don´t have enough feats.
For those cases magic items offer great oportunities, but unfortunately it also opens doors to misuse by others who are actually fine, but just take the stuff anyway.
In most tales of heroes, the strong ones don´t take so much special stuff, it´s more the smaller and weak ones who get some help by items.
And those overly strong dominating most of the time are normally the bad guys who are to be defeated.
That said, there are some tables on the internet that show average AC per level. Just remember what class you are playing and how you are supposed to hit. Some think its high BAB 100%, mdeium 75% and low 50%. Personally i think its 75%, 50% and 25%.
That said, i would only take items like that if there are real problems with hitting and then the bracers of the falcon price is ok, but greater bracers of archery are way to expensive, even if the magical item pricing is correct.