My first Kickstarter was fulfilled three years after the fund date, two years later than promised. I'm pretty tolerant.
Wow! You are far more tolerant than me. Did they at least have a good reason?
Funny how Gary is too afraid to post anything himself but others feel the need to defend him. Why? Alias's of Gary or friends?I've been around this forum far longer than Gary has, so not an alias. Also, don't know the guy personally, not to mention not in the same country as him either, so "friend" might be pushing it. It's not about defending him. Yes, he has my money. Yes, he doesn't communicate well. Still, while leery, I trust that he'll come through. All round he seems like a nice guy. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I try to sometimes see a glass as half full. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." So far, he hasn't fooled anyone. He's just been incredibly late. The joys of being human. We have our unfortunate faults.
I can understand him being late. That is not too much of a problem. Things happen. The problem is that he keeps making up release dates and refuses to answer any questions. He sure could answer questions before the kickstarter ended. Once the kickstarter ended he ignored everyone. I just don't understand why he ignores everybody. Remember how helpful he was until the ks ended? I guess it does no good to say anything. I will just let it go. Not worth it anymore.
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My first Kickstarter was fulfilled three years after the fund date, two years later than promised. I'm pretty tolerant.Wow! You are far more tolerant than me. Did they at least have a good reason?
Hell no! What good reason could they have? There were art delays, editing delays, who knows what else. I stopped paying attention and just wrote off the $150 I pledged. Then finally there were some updates, a preview PDF, and finally the finished product arrived. I'll be a little more cautious about backing their products now, but I don't have any ill will towards them.
He's just been incredibly late. The joys of being human. We have our unfortunate faults.
I for one have a horrible habit of funding doomed Kickstarters.
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Surely this is the risk we take with backing a kickstarter?
I backed this. Way of the Wicked was superb. This will be too but its a creative process and Gary is learning how important for this business model is deadlines can be. It is so tempting to push them back. The communication is an issue but its natural for someone to find it harder and harder to send out the same email.
My guess would be that Gary is becoming a perfectionist thanks to the success of the last one. He is a victim of his own success.
I can understand that. Obviously I will not be running this until I have it all now - which is a shame.
Cheers
I can understand him being late. That is not too much of a problem. Things happen. The problem is that he keeps making up release dates and refuses to answer any questions. He sure could answer questions before the kickstarter ended. Once the kickstarter ended he ignored everyone. I just don't understand why he ignores everybody. Remember how helpful he was until the ks ended? I guess it does no good to say anything. I will just let it go. Not worth it anymore.Funny how Gary is too afraid to post anything himself but others feel the need to defend him. Why? Alias's of Gary or friends?I've been around this forum far longer than Gary has, so not an alias. Also, don't know the guy personally, not to mention not in the same country as him either, so "friend" might be pushing it. It's not about defending him. Yes, he has my money. Yes, he doesn't communicate well. Still, while leery, I trust that he'll come through. All round he seems like a nice guy. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I try to sometimes see a glass as half full. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." So far, he hasn't fooled anyone. He's just been incredibly late. The joys of being human. We have our unfortunate faults.
I'm less stressed about it than you seem to be. Nonetheless, being ridiculously communicative and available during the prefunding phase of a kickstarter and then "too busy" to keep backers updated afterwards is an all too common phenomenon, in my experience.
I think "criminal" is overreach (there's no contract to deliver a project's goals, as far as I can tell), but its definitely not a good look.
Contrast it with the ultimate psionics or goblinworks kickstarters. I have no idea how close they are to being on schedule, but I have no concerns because I get regular updates, previes and progress reports. So I know something is happening.
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I can't believe how people keep defending Gary.We defended Nic after Razor Coast too.
Best 35 $ placed in a preorder - ever!!
(and many thanks to Lou and everyone else involved in the project too, obviously)
Given how much I've enjoyed WotW, I'm more than willing to give Gary an undisclosed amount of slack.
It's not criminal, but is it a breach of contract?
We signed up under the disclosed dielivery date that he provided.
I think this is where kickstarter has a major flaw. Once the money has been paid out I'm not showing any penalties to the creator, and the KS website is hard to find a complaint box/contact us area.
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the KS website is hard to find a complaint box/contact us area.
That's because there is none. If you read the terms of agreement, it's all between the backers and the publisher once things are finalized. KS will investigate while funding's happening if people don't think it's legit, but when time runs out, it's no longer in their hands.
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Hell no! What good reason could they have? There were art delays, editing delays, who knows what else. I stopped paying attention and just wrote off the $150 I pledged. Then finally there were some updates, a preview PDF, and finally the finished product arrived. I'll be a little more cautious about backing their products now, but I don't have any ill will towards them.My first Kickstarter was fulfilled three years after the fund date, two years later than promised. I'm pretty tolerant.Wow! You are far more tolerant than me. Did they at least have a good reason?
And bear in mind; delays happen. Even bad ones. This is not some guy repairing your driveway or delivering your pizza. This is a guy you gave money to as an investment towards something he creates virtually from scratch. He has to hire artists, set the layout, talk to retailers and distributors, give you feedback, work on the various add ons he has to deal with. I think in Gary's case at least he also has to write the damn thing at soem point. Give more feedback if possible. Apologize if late. Apologize further if you get up in his face about it. Deal with piracy (man can't run a business if his s&+@ gets distributed for free everywhere). Oh and he has to worry about guys that call him criminal and try to take him to court.
Being a publisher has become interesting since kickstarter. BEfore the only person you answered to is you. Now, you have to learn to be good at dealing with people (many who think that that 5$ they gave gives them the right to your soul) and better at gettign deadlines.
As for myself? I've been looking forward to Throne of Night since it's announcement. Gary has produced quite amazing content ever since his first part of his AP. I have confidence that the delay are merely the results of growing pains from being a one writer, one artist show to soemthing more and I wish him the best.
I'm going to move away from the "Hey, I haven't heard/seen anything yet and I'm starting to get worried - I wish FMG would tell us something" direction this thread is going...
Question:
Since this adventure path is directed at either Dwarves or Drow (mainly), will there be enough material to play the drow?
For example, there is plenty of great "core" books of feats, classes, etc for 'Good & Dwarves', but as you move towards 'evil & drow' your choices begin to get reduced.
I know Way of the Wicked was great at adding new options for evil charactes (e.g. the modified alignment of anti-paladins, etc).
Will ToN also provide options for our drow/evil choices?
If so, will it be a mere sidebar, or a whole section/appendices?
I'm going to move away from the "Hey, I haven't heard/seen anything yet and I'm starting to get worried - I wish FMG would tell us something" direction this thread is going...
Question:
Since this adventure path is directed at either Dwarves or Drow (mainly), will there be enough material to play the drow?For example, there is plenty of great "core" books of feats, classes, etc for 'Good & Dwarves', but as you move towards 'evil & drow' your choices begin to get reduced.
I know Way of the Wicked was great at adding new options for evil charactes (e.g. the modified alignment of anti-paladins, etc).
Will ToN also provide options for our drow/evil choices?
If so, will it be a mere sidebar, or a whole section/appendices?
In 3.5 one of the last books they published was Drow of the Underdark. Easily one of my favorites in taht it essentially "gave the drow their balls back" killing alot of the notion that something like Drizzt was common. More commonly Lolth would cover a priestess in biting spiders just to see what would happen.
that would be good news :)
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I talked to Michael Clarke 4 days ago (sorry I meant to post this sooner) he is the other half of Fire Mountain Games.
"...things are progressing on Throne of Night and Gary told me his final editing for Book 1 should be wrapped up by next weekend. I've finished most of the art for Book 2 already (aside from maps) and Gary has done a lot of writing for that too. So I would expect Book 1 to be coming out very shortly, and the wait for Book 2 should be much less than the first."
Just thought you folks should know.
Thanks, good to know.
Great news! Thanks!
New update. Allegedly out within the week.
woot :)
The recent update:
It has been too long since we've had an update, so let's remedy that!
First and foremost, Book One's PDF is in its final stages. It's written, it's edited. We have a few corrections to make and then it will be released first to backers. Expect that link within the next week. We'll post an update about it.
It's because of backers like you and your funding that I've been able to take my time with Book One and even write a lot of material for later books concurrently. I think this will make for the most integrated adventure path you've ever seen.
Thanks for your support, backers. I couldn't have done it without you.
Second, Book Two nears completion and should follow closely behind Book One.
(artwork snip)
Thanks again for your patience and your support.
So, assuming that this AP is eventually coming out (who knows?) one of the things I'm looking forward to is seeing what deities there are for the Dwarves and Drow. Moradin and Lolth are copyrighted, so he can't use them.
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So, assuming that this AP is eventually coming out (who knows?) one of the things I'm looking forward to is seeing what deities there are for the Dwarves and Drow. Moradin and Lolth are copyrighted, so he can't use them.
Supposedly he's developed a system so that you can create your own deity, or bring back the copyrighted ones.
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At this point I can kind of see why he hasent bothering updating from whats happening on the firemountain games facebook page where you have one poster demanding he give an update and after Gary does the same poster then says he is such a liar and wont believe anything he say.
I mean if people are going to demand updates then complain when he gives those updates well whats the point?
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I don't get what gets you all so worried about this AP.
OK, they are not Paizo, so they can't keep the same rhythm. And then what ? They have book one almost ready if I read them correctly, so it's all good.
I prefer to wait for a good book and get it eventually, than get a bad book right away.
Best,
I don't get what gets you all so worried about this AP.
OK, they are not Paizo, so they can't keep the same rhythm. And then what ? They have book one almost ready if I read them correctly, so it's all good.
I prefer to wait for a good book and get it eventually, than get a bad book right away.
Best,
I think this is the best mindset to adopt.
FWIW, I'm not in the least bit stressed about delays. However, I do find it annoying that, prior to this kickstarter, the merest mention of Way of the Wicked somewhere on the forums would mean he'd pop in to say "Glad you're enjoying it" (or whatever) but that now there's no sign of him, despite repeated direct requests for information.
I dont think that's entirely rational of me - it's probably just the difference between when he's working and when he isnt. Nonetheless, it is irritating.
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Maybe part of Gary's mistake is setting unreasonable deadlines for the future Books. Each time one is missed it reduces his standing a little and makes it harder for him to post again.
Steve's right about the mindset of Stereofm. It is best to ignore all the delays and poor comms and concentrate on how good the results will be.
Cheers