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I find it hilarious this comes from a poster who normally appears to pride himself on mocking posters of threads he thinks are pointless or will not result in change.
Asking nicely is good and all, but people are gonna post in whatever threads they like. You really think this is gonna stop it? Really?
Or perhaps I should just say in this thread...
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I find it hilarious this comes from a poster who normally appears to pride himself on mocking posters of threads he thinks are pointless or will not result in change.
Asking nicely is good and all, but people are gonna post in whatever threads they like. You really think this is gonna stop it? Really?
Or perhaps I should just say in this thread...
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Well, you could say that I was kind of curious if I'm the only one fed up with master arminas and the Monkettes hijacking the forum and turning it into some kind of group therapy session.
*checks the amount of favorites for the first post*
Mission accomplished.
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I'm actually proud of the forums that a similar thing hasn't happened with the announcement of Mythic Adventures.
Probably because there is little known beyond actual annnouncement. Wait until actual playtest appears... Then the epic hell will get lose.
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Our battle will be legendary.
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See, here's the thing. As a long-time lurker and only relatively new poster I've been able to stand back and just watch for the last few years when it comes to all this monk (and previous issues) stuff. Yes, those who are tired of it can block much of it. The issue with that is it clutters up other threads as well with a bunch of off-topic garbage that discourages discussion about the actual topic because no one wants to sift through all the useless comments.
But this has gotten to a point beyond Gorbacz's and others just getting tired of these threads. We have reached a point of pure, unadulterated obstinate bickering on these boards. It's rarely discussion. It's often moved well beyond arguments. And I'd hardly call it debate. When we humans get to this point I find rationality often leaves in the face of self-justification as people start to repeat, "well, that's just everyone else. I'm still behaving properly. I'm not sure why everyone else doesn't recognize my point of view."
So let me clear a few things up for some of you (not calling anyone out, these are just general trends that I've noticed). Also, apologies in advance since this is pretty long:
1) Yelling at people or even civilly explaining that "you're right if they'd just take the time to listen to you" WILL NOT improve their position from Indifferent to Friendly or Helpful. You have to be willing to make concessions or be polite, ask nicely instead of demand, and be understanding of the fact that your request is just that - merely a request. If the person sees fit to respond and starts a discussion with you then treat them as if they're doing you a massive favor (even if you don't think they are). The change in tone from acting this way will get you a lot farther with people.
1a) In short - be nice.
1b) For those who say (1a) doesn't work for them because, "hey, man, that's not me. I'm not nice. I say it like it is. I'm, abrasive and I can be a bit of a jerk. But it's totally cool 'cause I admit to it".
Hey, cool guy, yeah you over there, guess what? Admitting and being aware of a personal problem or a fault does not make it okay if it's still effecting others. It's fine I suppose if you're making efforts to correct your character flaws but not so much otherwise.
For example: "Yeah, I like to go around punching people in the face, it's my thing. No, it's alright, I know it pisses people off sometimes but I deal with it." See how ridiculous that sounds? If you're okay with annoying people and not trying to make friends on the internet then, yes, you're only hurting yourself by being proud of being a jerk. Good for you. Just be aware, PLEASE, that by doing this you will never get anyone to agree to help you online ever. Seriously. You want the monk fixed? Not going to happen based on your request if you keep being abrasive. So good luck with that.
2) If the strategy you employ to try and get yourself heard does not work the first, second, third, or fifteenth time you try it then it will not work the fiftieth time either. Clearly, the messageboard blitz is not helping. I can only assume denial, just utter and blatant denial, for why people still think this is a viable tactic.
3) People apologizing for getting too aggressive because they are just "really passionate" is incredibly disingenuous. First, I'm strongly of the belief that repeat offenders of something are basically liars when they say they're "sorry"; no, you're not because you wouldn't keep doing it if you were.
Second, this is one of those "clever" ways of shifting guilt from yourself in advance before you say something you might regret later or you know will start something unpleasant. It's like the phrase "No offense, but..." - who are you to decide what I'm allowed to be offended by? And you already know it's offensive or you wouldn't have prefaced it with that statement(it's one of my pet peeves).
Being "really passionate" works the same way by implying the only reason you're so mean about everything is because you "care too much". Give me a break. How about, instead of going off the rails, you check yourself in an emotionally stable manner (take a breather if needed) and then try and discuss things politely. There's barely any excuse for "passionate" vitriol the first time, let alone the tenth. Just don't do it.
4) This last one is about respect and understanding. Not in regards to messageboard discussions but in regards to the people who bust their behinds every single day (and often well into the evenings) to produce this game we love and enjoy. This one irks me more than almost any other and its the dismissive attitude that some display when talking about how things are done at Paizo. Are you there? Do you have some magic 8-ball that tells you how easy their job is and when they have the time to fix your little problem with the game? Oh, between 3:00 PM and 5:00 PM this coming Thursday, you say? If they sat down then and hammered away at it your problem would be fixed? Color me impressed. Man, I wish I knew years ago that being a game developer was so easy - I'd have like fifty ENnies by now.
"But, that's their job," I hear some people say. Um, no it isn't. Even ignoring the fact that Paizo is a PUBLISHING company that focuses on making books (most of them "fluffy"), has anyone ever taken a look at their release schedule. They put out more content per year than almost any other gaming company I have ever seen. And they do it with a limited staff. Now, I can't assume everyone ranting away has ever worked in an office, especially the head office, for a large company so I'll enlighten some of you. You're busy with "other" things all the time. There's never just a day where you can say, "we've got nothing else to do so let's sit down at the whiteboard and fix the monk". That doesn't happen. They'll need to dedicate time to it, lot's of time, even if it is a simple fix. Yes, I'm sure they have whiteboard meetings most weeks but it's not easy to get everyone together in the office at the same time. So when you do, you use that meeting to go over everything and you prioritize based on importance and immediacy. Then if you run out of time, stuff gets shelved till the next meeting. Hope that helps some of you who keep saying, "I don't understand why Paizo can't just get its developers into one room and fix it in a day."
5) Sorry, I lied, this is the last one. Can everyone please take a long look at themselves in the mirror. Please. What do you see? Now, I'm guessing the average age of most of us is somewhere between late 20's to late 30's with some posters on these boards heading into their 50's or later. There is absolutely no excuse for this sort of juvenile bickering on these boards at our age (mostly). Seriously, it needs to stop. Yes, we're all faceless on here but that doesn't give any of us the right to start acting like Peter Pan's Lost Boys. I'm almost 29 and the (I like to think) few times I've gotten into heated discussions online I felt not just ashamed afterward but also like an idiot; even if I was right (or wrong, it doesn't matter). Sure, you might eventually achieve victory and get what you want by acting like a stubborn child but you did it by being foolish and without dignity. Congratulations.
I'd like to end by saying the above doesn't just apply to monk threads. It applies to so many discussions that have erupted on these forums in the past few years. It's one of the reasons it took me so long to decide to finally become an active forum member because I don't like getting into discussions that devolve into meaningless arguments. And I especially don't like getting drawn into them. Honestly, I'm sure I'm not the only former lurker that hesitated for this reason. I like this game and I like the people who play it (mostly). I don't like having it tainted by all this bickering (and don't dare call it "passion", that's a BS answer and you know it).
And to everyone who might read the above and feel slightly insulted by my occasionally harsh or derisive tone and think, "F%&# this guy, I'm not going to listen to him". Now you know how it feels and that's why your arguments aren't working. Don't be an @$$ if you want people to listen. FACT.
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What The Block Knight said.
At this point I vote for Paizo to not fix the monk, lock all existing monk threads, and delete all new threads concerning the issue.
Every fix they are going to apply will get ripped apart, because the expectations are so high now, that they can't be satisfied anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.
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What The Block Knight said.
At this point I vote for Paizo to not fix the monk, lock all existing monk threads, and delete all new threads concerning the issue.
Every fix they are going to apply will get ripped apart, because the expectations are so high now, that they can't be satisfied anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.
Right. No matter what happens, the MAD group (or the Monk Lovers, depends who you ask) is not going to be happy with it. Maybe one of them will be (I'm going to guess ciretose will be somewhat happy), but in general, the sheer size of the mountain that's been made of this molehill inside the tempest in a teacup that is this forum means they're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Jason Bulmahn, lead designer of the best selling RPG, thinks there are a few minor issues that need some slight tweaking. Not an entire rewrite. Is Jason infallible? No. Does he know his stuff and what the monk is supposed to be better than anyone else? Yes.
*checks the amount of favorites for the first post*
Mission accomplished.
Congratulations! You typed something that other people agreed with! Paizo should now include you in all design decisions as well as allow you to set their forum policies!
I remember the last time a game company starting basing development decisions on what appeared to be the popular opinions of the time, and then started heavily policing their forums so as to quash all dissent/criticism. It was fun, and we got 4e out of the deal!
Our battle will be legendary.
Unless only monks are involved, then it will be mediocre at best.
I'll be happy either way Paizo decides to go. I love my current Core only monks. There's also a lot of other classes I want to play. Slight tweaks to my favorite class? Great! Nothing, it was decided, needed to be done to my favorite class? Great! Thank you for the consideration anyways!
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*checks the amount of favorites for the first post*
Mission accomplished.
Congratulations! You typed something that other people agreed with! Paizo should now include you in all design decisions as well as allow you to set their forum policies!
I remember the last time a game company starting basing development decisions on what appeared to be the popular opinions of the time, and then started heavily policing their forums so as to quash all dissent/criticism. It was fun, and we got 4e out of the deal!
But tell me, how do you *really* feel?
What The Block Knight said.
At this point I vote for Paizo to not fix the monk, lock all existing monk threads, and delete all new threads concerning the issue.
Every fix they are going to apply will get ripped apart, because the expectations are so high now, that they can't be satisfied anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.
So, you advocate shutting down discussion on a matter you don't agree with, Fabius? Failing to fix a problem that the designers themselves agree is a problem out of spite?
Shutting down debate and burying your head in the sand because you do not like what is being said (despite the truth of what is being said) is not a valid strategy.
MA
Probably because there is little known beyond actual annnouncement. Wait until actual playtest appears... Then the epic hell will get lose.
Depends. Will that playtest include monks?
*ducks for cover*Shutting down debate and burying your head in the sand because you do not like what is being said (despite the truth of what is being said) is not a valid strategy.
Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.
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What The Block Knight said.
At this point I vote for Paizo to not fix the monk, lock all existing monk threads, and delete all new threads concerning the issue.
Every fix they are going to apply will get ripped apart, because the expectations are so high now, that they can't be satisfied anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.
So, you advocate shutting down discussion on a matter you don't agree with, Fabius? Failing to fix a problem that the designers themselves agree is a problem out of spite?
Shutting down debate and burying your head in the sand because you do not like what is being said (despite the truth of what is being said) is not a valid strategy.
MA
You used the words "debate" and "discussion". I'm not sure if you know what those words mean.
You're trying to bludgeon everyone around: the devs, the moderation, the people who don't agree with you, the people who agree with you and the people who don't give a flip into accepting that your opinion about Monks is a fact and your ideas are the One True Way of fixing the class.
And frankly, I also have that strange tingle that when and if any changes to the class will come, you won't back down because you got too high already. I'd love to be mistaken, but after years of prowling various gaming communities, I've grown to be slightly cynical.
Right. No matter what happens, the MAD group (or the Monk Lovers, depends who you ask) is not going to be happy with it. Maybe one of them will be (I'm going to guess ciretose will be somewhat happy), but in general, the sheer size of the mountain that's been made of this molehill inside the tempest in a teacup that is this forum means they're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Jason Bulmahn, lead designer of the best selling RPG, thinks there are a few minor issues that need some slight tweaking. Not an entire rewrite. Is Jason infallible? No. Does he know his stuff and what the monk is supposed to be better than anyone else? Yes.What The Block Knight said.
At this point I vote for Paizo to not fix the monk, lock all existing monk threads, and delete all new threads concerning the issue.
Every fix they are going to apply will get ripped apart, because the expectations are so high now, that they can't be satisfied anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.
Bolded the part I disagree with. I've seen homebrew add-ons to 3.5e that have done a better job than most tweaks in Pathfinder so far.
But who am I to say?
Apparently opinions can be wrong, and I'm going to Hell for liking 3.5e instead of PF around here :3
(I would have bothered quoting some other post, but this managed to catch my eye real fast. And before you say anything, house rules are not a solution for people, especially the ones with only two DMs, both of whom are completely against houserules except their own ones)
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Right. No matter what happens, the MAD group (or the Monk Lovers, depends who you ask) is not going to be happy with it. Maybe one of them will be (I'm going to guess ciretose will be somewhat happy), but in general, the sheer size of the mountain that's been made of this molehill inside the tempest in a teacup that is this forum means they're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Jason Bulmahn, lead designer of the best selling RPG, thinks there are a few minor issues that need some slight tweaking. Not an entire rewrite. Is Jason infallible? No. Does he know his stuff and what the monk is supposed to be better than anyone else? Yes.What The Block Knight said.
At this point I vote for Paizo to not fix the monk, lock all existing monk threads, and delete all new threads concerning the issue.
Every fix they are going to apply will get ripped apart, because the expectations are so high now, that they can't be satisfied anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.
Bolded the part I disagree with. I've seen homebrew add-ons to 3.5e that have done a better job than most tweaks in Pathfinder so far. But who am I to say?
Apparently opinions can be wrong, and I'm going to Hell for liking 3.5e instead of PF around here :3
You're living in Finland, that's a punishment enough already.
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I was thinking of making a post similar to this one. I was thinking of putting it in the most recent Yet Another Monk Thread (I think that's the 10th or so with that phrase in the title? Yea.)
Are there legitimate issues with the monk? Yes. They've been identified since day one. Are they anywhere near the scale that certain people make them out to be? No.
This whole fiasco was caused by the dev clarification that Flurry of Blows was always meant to be TWF. Read that sentence again. The whole infatuation with madness that are the monk threads are due to one single clarification about something most monks do not use: manufactured weapons. Even all the complaints now have almost nothing to do with the flurry of blows clarification. Some posters were so pissed off, so vitriolic at this clarification that they went on and on about how it was a "nerf", that it was "errata", or that "Paizo has it out for monks!". I remember many threads that asked about the status of FoB and many people went on and on about how "after the errata it works this way...". Emphasis theirs. I even showed, right after the clarification, that Jason has always been thinking of Flurry in the mindset of TWF since the release of the game. Did that stop people from making posts dripping with disdain that claimed it was errata? Nope.
Was there a number of monk threads of such levels as currently before this clarification? Nope. In fact, people were complaining that Ultimate Combat should be renamed "Ultimate Monk" because monks made out like bandits in that book. But now one clarification about a rare feature in an already uncommon class (using a weapon while flurrying with the monk) has caused such a furor...It's mind-boggling.
It's actually approaching Cartigan vs. The Universe level, frankly.
Remember how I said I was going to make this sort of post? This was going to be one of my points. I'm at the point where I would actually rather read a thread with Cartigan taking part in in, yes, this cartigan, than monk complaint thread #4354367.
"Why not just not read them?"
History lesson time! About a year ago, a certain, to-be-unnamed, member of the boards joined up. (To their credit, I think they only posted 3 or 4 Paladin fixes to the Homebrew forums and they have really, really improved their posting habits over the past 8 months. ) Well, it'd be more accurate to say that they started posting a lot then. Almost as if they were taking on TriOmegaZero. They posted a lot of threads. Paladin threads, alignment threads, complaint threads, more alignment threads. I recall counting their threads about Paladins, just paladins alone!, and they numbered around 16. And this was within a 2 or 3 month period of time. This was one posted making about 5 paladin threads a month. And they were all just about the same: "The alignment code sucks." And these were multiple page threads, filled with mostly the same people making the same points to the few newcomers that were suckered into them. And these threads were highly annoying. No one but those participating in them liked them and they were incessantly mocked.
These weren't the only threads this user posted. Eventually it started to appear that threads were either the "damsel in distress" type ("halp! I jumped into GMing a 15th+ level game as my first GMing experience"), seemingly titled to trigger as many hot-button issues as possible ("Why can't a Paladin be in a party with a necromancer who casts Animate Undead? Is it really an evil spell?"), or "palalignment" threads. Those threads are pure examples and pure fiction (I think).
And these were annoying. Really annoying. It's not that I have to read them the paladin alignment threads, I don't!. It's that this person is still beating that drum. Incessantly. For three whole months. And making it out to be the most important problem facing the Pathfinder roleplaying game.
Fun little history lesson, eh? See any parallels to today?
"Well, just don't listen to that drum!"
I'm not. Rather, I'm trying not to. And failing miserably because that drumbeat that has been beating for five months non-stop is still going. It's still permeating into many of the supposedly drum-proof huts I find in this little village of threads.
It's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Grown adults acting so haughty that those who disagree with them are "ignorant". People acting like the monk is the most important class in the game.
I've been patiently waiting just under two years for clarification or a rewrite of the magic item creation rules. Two. Years. Many more people have also been waiting for this. And we're finally getting this in Ultimate Campaign. And people are throwing in the towel after having to wait 5 months?
The rogue has about the same number or more issues that the monk actually has and is played probably 10-20 times more often than the monk. But we only see Rogue Complaint Threads maybe once or twice a month. Not once or twice per day. We see Rogue Fix threads about as often, if that. We don't see people publically going "Oh, this rogue item in UE isn't as good as I want it to be, so it's HILARIOUS HOW BAD THE DEVS ARE LOL" or "WHAT A JOKE, RIGHT? LOL" due to an item in a book the devs were adamant wouldn't contain an "item fix" for the rogue. We don't see the "Rogue Lovers" mocking Paizo like little school children because the latest book didn't Completely Fix Monks Forever.
The Rogue Lovers haven't "lost faith" in the devs after 5 measly months of the year, especially the five busiest of the year, when no progress has been made.
And that is why all these monk threads are so highly annoying to so many. They are creating a tempest of mountains out of molehills in this little cup we have. They have convinced themselves so thoroughly that they are right and that the professional designers are wrong that certain members just mock those who disagree with them. Some just shake their heads. Either the monk is the most important problem facing the game right now or the monk is the most important problem facing the game.
This is the same thing that happens with Mikaze. He is so adamant that orcs need to be not-evil; so adamant that non-evil undead need to exist; so adamant that redemption must be everywhere. I like the guy a lot, but I know a lot of people are rubbed the wrong way by his zeal for what he wants. They see him as trying to "force his way onto golarion" with his various crusades. His threads are akin to the Monk Threads in the core line, just for Golarion. except they're more varied and interesting
For the record, yes I did just make a post that tied paladin threads, monk threads, alignment threads, "shades of gray" approach to the campaign setting, Animate Undead being [evil], magic item creation, and Cartigan. Alas, I couldn't fit the cheese threads or "melee classes being so supar weak that no one can play them" threads into it.
In any event, I like most of you guys, and I'm sure you think I'm just as crazy about some things as I do think about you guys with the monk threads :p
And finally, blessed be the PMG who gifted unto us the most holy of icons: ∅.
"Finally" is a funny word.
Maybe a Pizza Drive to Paizo by the Monk Lovers / MAD groupies would lessen any hostility.
Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.
I hate to tell you how long ago I took high school Latin! Translation please?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.I hate to tell you how long ago I took high school Latin! Translation please?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.I hate to tell you how long ago I took high school Latin! Translation please?
If I'm not mistaken, that's a quote from the 150-ish BC Roman politician Cato the Elder, who ended each of his Senate speeches in the time leading up to the Third Punic War by saying "And I also think Carthage should be destroyed" (or something to that effect).
"Carthago delenda est"Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.I hate to tell you how long ago I took high school Latin! Translation please?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Ah, thank you both !!!!
-- david
Papa.DRB
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But tell me, how do you *really* feel?*checks the amount of favorites for the first post*
Mission accomplished.
Congratulations! You typed something that other people agreed with! Paizo should now include you in all design decisions as well as allow you to set their forum policies!
I remember the last time a game company starting basing development decisions on what appeared to be the popular opinions of the time, and then started heavily policing their forums so as to quash all dissent/criticism. It was fun, and we got 4e out of the deal!
Tell me about your mother.
Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.I hate to tell you how long ago I took high school Latin! Translation please?
-- david
Papa.DRB
"Furthermore, Carthage must be destroyed" or something close to that.
The Mother Of All Bags? You have a week of free time spare, hopefully...
You mother wouldn't happen to be the bag Mary Poppins carries around would it? That bag seems to have everything inside...
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"Furthermore, Carthage must be destroyed" or something close to that.Then again, yelling 'Cetero Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam' into each and every topic is... questionable, at best.I hate to tell you how long ago I took high school Latin! Translation please?
-- david
Papa.DRB
...Why do I want figs now?
I get that people are sick of complaining. However, not all posts about monks are complaints; many of them are musings, builds, etc---inoffensive speculation. Pile on to this the fact that complaining about complaining doesn't help.
Let's be clear: if someone posts about a monk, they are not automatically whining. They are not automatically saying that Paizo sucks and doesn't get it.
I happen to be playing a sorcerer in one game and a monk in another. I find the monk to be fun to play. Because the class is in flux, I find myself dreaming about what the fix will look like. Not complaining. Not starting drama. Just dreaming. However, due to the situation on the boards, I don't feel comfortable posting my ideas for a fix (monks do more damage, but it's non-lethal)...because I don't want to come across as another whiner.
That's sad. I think everyone needs to think about what they have been typing and obey rule number one: Don't be a jerk. Noob, veteran, rules lawyer, doesn't matter; all classes should be up for discussion and speculation.
Axolotl, about your Monk fix of doing more damage, but making it nonlethal, you do realize there is a pretty good number of enemies that are immune to nonlethal damage? Undead and Constructs are the two that come to mind. I understand it's just an idea, but is there more to it than that? Maybe a way for a Monk to choose to deal nonlethal, and by doing nonlethal he gets to deal more damage?
By the way, I'm genuinely interested in your alternative. I love funky character designs, and one of the most fun I have, is Monk characters.
You used the words "debate" and "discussion". I'm not sure if you know what those words mean.You're trying to bludgeon everyone around: the devs, the moderation, the people who don't agree with you, the people who agree with you and the people who don't give a flip into accepting that your opinion about Monks is a fact and your ideas are the One True Way of fixing the class.
And frankly, I also have that strange tingle that when and if any changes to the class will come, you won't back down because you got too high already. I'd love to be mistaken, but after years of prowling various gaming communities, I've grown to be slightly cynical.
This pretty much establishes what the problem is. It isn't a matter of dozens of posts to 'fix' the monk but instead just an unrelenting tide of repeated talking points that drown out any discussion. A lot of space could be saved by just linking to the previous iteration of several of these arguments; they aren't changing from the last six times they were tossed up.
I think the devs get it that some people want changes. Will repeating the same talking points change minds or get something done faster, or will it end up irritating the very people you'd like to make some changes?
No one has to read any threads, this is very true. But badgering - and to be clear, many posts come across as badgering - is a poor way to get people to listen to you with a clear head.
Tels---yeah, I thought of that and would include an exemption for undead and constructs. Monks would do lethal damage to them. (I guess. This was just an idea that came to me while shaving. :D) It makes flavor sense to me that punching someone is generally nonlethal.
Except on a crit. :) Then---lethal! Ka pow!
This would bypass the DPR discussion and keep the flavor of monks as debuffers and stunners.
And thank you for being interested!
Basically ninja'd by Cheapy, but nonetheless.
So, you advocate shutting down discussion on a matter you don't agree with, Fabius? Failing to fix a problem that the designers themselves agree is a problem out of spite?Shutting down debate and burying your head in the sand because you do not like what is being said (despite the truth of what is being said) is not a valid strategy.
MA
Not at all, if there would actually would be a debate. But the debate about the problems of the monk class has been over a long time ago. Now, it's only re-hashing the same old points over and over again. That leads nowhere, and it is annoying.
It has nothing to do with what I agree with or not. It has nothing to do with spite. It has everything to do with the ultimate futility of any fix to that class, because I know that you - yes, you, MA - are not going to accept it, unless every single one of your wishes is fulfilled.
Anything the devs do or not do will only fuel the flames of this so-called "debate". It's better to snuff that fire out.
If we have a monk debate I propose:
Monks; Loincloths or Sashes?
All mechanical discussion should be tabled until this crucial issue is addressed.
You used the words "debate" and "discussion". I'm not sure if you know what those words mean.
You're trying to bludgeon everyone around: the devs, the moderation, the people who don't agree with you, the people who agree with you and the people who don't give a flip into accepting that your opinion about Monks is a fact and your ideas are the One True Way of fixing the class.
The irony here is choking. I don't think you of all people have any moral ground to chide anyone about trying to stifle debate and shouting people down. You have turned into the encapsulation of all you posted above, harassing people and riling the board up against the persons who disagree with you.
Oh, whatevs. If you want to try to play netcop and play the ad hominem game, be my guest. Too bad that there isn't a ignore option on this messageboard, it would be highly useful. Too bad you've decided to go from "court jester" to "board inquisitor".
"Is the subject loyal enough to the status quo? Is he, issss heeeeee?!?!"
Aw, damn, now I'll forever picture Gorbacz as Nic Cage. "Not the bees!"
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Too bad that there isn't a ignore option on this messageboard, it would be highly useful.
Ignore Users: LINK
-- david
Papa.DRB
Too bad that there isn't a ignore option on this messageboard, it would be highly useful.Ignore Users: LINK
-- david
Papa.DRB
I highly recommend this. Had it for about for months now. You have no idea how much headache this has saved me.
I highly recommend this. Had it for about for months now. You have no idea how much headache this has saved me.Too bad that there isn't a ignore option on this messageboard, it would be highly useful.Ignore Users: LINK
-- david
Papa.DRB
With the "hover over link to a post to get a preview of it" feature, I just saw your recommendation without any context. I was suspecting you were talking about whiskey, but another_mage's ignore script is nice too.
Thanks, I'll look that up when I get home. Highly appreciated.
With the "hover over link to a post to get a preview of it" feature, I just saw your recommendation without any context. I was suspecting you were talking about whiskey, but another_mage's ignore script is nice too.I highly recommend this. Had it for about for months now. You have no idea how much headache this has saved me.Too bad that there isn't a ignore option on this messageboard, it would be highly useful.Ignore Users: LINK
-- david
Papa.DRB
You sir owe me a soda for the one I just splattered over my monitor. ;D
Let's figure out something new to complain about.
I nominate rogues. We haven't complained about rogues in a while.
I haven't seen many Summoner or Paladin complaint threads recently (on Over Poweredness) this month.