Hello. I'm preparing a campaign and I was wondering what stats/races/beast species(?) would be good for the Gods of the world. I plan on having the PCs actually fight a few of them deep into the campaign.
I am looking more at LG Gods and the other Good alignments than any evil Gods (Yeah, the PCs aren't going to be on the Good side all the time, and they'll all probably have to be somewhat neutral).
I have been doing some heavy planning this last week as far as the religions of my campaign world, but really have no idea what it would be like to fight a Pathfinder God, if it's possible, and what they would look like... if someone could offer suggestions, ideas, or even just point to a page in one of the Bestiaries it would help immensely.
This is likely a ridiculous or stupid question, as i'm new to pathfinder, but the guys i usually go to for help are going to be playing this campaign and i dont want to give this much away to them
They don't have the gods statted up because it's just not possible to. After awhile you just run out of feats and spells to throw at them to make them tough... then what? Plus you'd be looking at CR36+ beings, the lowest being the weakest.
In a month, though, there's going to be a play test for Paizo's version of the epic rules called Mythic Adventures. Should allow you to take on Demon Lords and Demigods, but not gods.
You might check out Deities and Demigods it is a 3.x sourcebook. Though you will want to figure out some epic experience or try to get the playtest for Mythic Adventures.
They don't have the gods statted up because it's just not possible to. After awhile you just run out of feats and spells to throw at them to make them tough... then what? Plus you'd be looking at CR36+ beings, the lowest being the weakest.
In a month, though, there's going to be a play test for Paizo's version of the epic rules called Mythic Adventures. Should allow you to take on Demon Lords and Demigods, but not gods.
That makes a lot of sense. No PC's can be as powerful as gods, so theres no abilities to represent all the power a god would have.. just makes sense.
But that leaves me with a bigger dilemma. At that point in the campaign the PCs are supposed to somewhere around lvl 20, and will be bashing through some of the biggest, baddest monsters the game has to offer. And i wanted this epic-proportioned fighting to culminate in the PCs facing off with one of the LG gods (Mind you, the term GOD maybe being used loosely here) of my world... I really have to find some way for them to do that, at this point.
And if it was unclear, i wasn't talking about the gods that you find in the pathfinder books. ambitiously, Im going to be creating my own, which will tie in with the history of my campaign world.
Couldn't I make them have a CR of, say, 27? 28? Even 30? Could I maybe use the bestiaries and the monster creation rules to make something that could be considered a god?
Final thing, I didn't really want this entity the PCs fight to die... I thought once this guy loses so many hit points he will end the fight and begin to reason with the PCs...
Is this at all possible or am I just a noob trying to push the limits too far?
You might check out Deities and Demigods it is a 3.x sourcebook. Though you will want to figure out some epic experience or try to get the playtest for Mythic Adventures.
Thanks for the reply I'll have to look into that stuff. All of you, thanks for replies, BTW.
If your talking about exp points I found a formula somewhere in these messageboards for epic level XP, and Im going to use that as a reference to figure XP rewards for the "Gods"
Use the race builder to build a powerful race. Then Gestalt 2 classes and let them rip. Or heck use the creature types in the bestiary as classes. That is how I make homebrew monsters.
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Back in first edition AD&D, TSR developed a book called 'Deities and Demigods', statting up the various deities as pretty damn powerful monsters. See, they figured in those days, no one in their right minds would ever allow the player-characters in their campaigns to ever get so powerful, they could challenge the gods themselves.
Then the writers found out that there were DMs out there using the Deities and Demigods book as their campaign's Monster Manual. These DMs' player-characters weren't going up against one deity, but pretty much an entire pantheon... as a single encounter.
They reacted with horror, and pretty much since then, gods have never really been statted. (Oh, sure, their AVATARS get statted, but the gods themselves, never.)
In my last campaign it wasn't just impossible to go up against a god... it was impossible to even contemplate it. Because here's how a combat against a deity worked:
GM: Roll Initiative.
Player: I roll 400!
GM: Okay. Deity goes first anyway.
Player: WHAT?!?
GM: Deity wills you out of existence. You're not dead -- you never existed.*
Player: WHAT?!?
GM: We'll start over next week with a brand-new 1st level character.
Player: WHAT?!?
*Or strikes you with lightning. Or smites you. Or curses you to with horrendous diseases. Or disintegrates you, no saving throw. Or cleaves you in two. I'm sorry, he (or she) is a DEITY, not mortal.
I guess I should have specified I meant avatars... Also 3.x Deities and Demigods actually stated the stats were for the Deity/Demigod not their avatar.
Though one must remember the easiest way to kill a God.
Kill all of their followers!
Sorry for the following book of a post:
That bit of history there is very interesting.
I definitely agree that combat against deities, physical or magical, should not be common in Pathfinder gameplay. I totally understand why stats for combat aren't given, and am just as horrified at the image of players cutting down multiple godly beings in combat. And as a side note, no, this is not the total focus of the campaign, but it does form much of the climax of it.
As far as being willed out of existence or instantly disintegrated... well it stumped me for a second; Until I remembered that the 1 or 2 deities the PCs are supposed to fight simply don't have that kind of power. Religion in my campaign is different than what is given in the pathfinder rulebooks.
I have it set up so that there are over 10 different religions. All these have their own sets of gods. These different religions are vary greatly in terms of beliefs; there are Polytheistic, Monotheistic, Animistic, and even Deistic religions. And just like in our own world, these religions tend to disagree and quarrel with each other to the point of violence and even "holy wars." Well that all led to the question of whether or not members of a given religion thought another religion was "fony" or made up.
The answer had to be no, and that the different religions simply involved different customs and beliefs and sets of gods, and that all the gods of the different religions are "real." Also, un-coincidentally many times conflicts in the mortal world coincided with conflicts in the domains of the Gods. (Religious division between mortals results from division among the Gods)
With so many deities at odds with each other, how can they all have abilities as powerful as just... "willing people out of existence"
If they have powers such as that they have to be limited. In my world they have to and will be. Actually, a God's power would probably be limited BY the other gods.
This thread, and my campaign's climax, really just pose the question of "What defines a God, and what power do they have?" Though these deities (probably talking strictly about my own campaign at this point) might not be able to be harmed by NORMAL physical combat weapons, they can be harmed. Immortality, as defined by good 'ol wikipedia, does not protect you entirely from physical harm, but from aging or most other lethal forces. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality#Causes_of_death
So, can't a God be, at least in this funny campaign world of mine, an extremely powerful extra-planar being, that has obtained true immortality, is really f&$&in hard to kill, rules in another plane of existence, but has interest in the affairs of man, and aids or inhibits those affairs?
Question. Are you starting this campaign from Level 1?
Question. Are you starting this campaign from Level 1?
No, actually. It's a continuation of another campaign I did... I don't think I could come up with enough material to make the PCs 20+ lvl characters all while sticking to one theme, hahaha.
This campaign would be the end to the story, though... I was actually considering having the PCs gain immortality themselves :3And since there aren't combat rules for being a god, as stated many times above, that would be the definite end since there is nothing higher up than being a god, and trying to make anything challenging for them to fight would have to be "An army of..." and that would be ridiculous
...if that makes sense LOL.
Sure, it's your world. You can do what you want with your game, so long as it's fun, and so long as your players know that your gods are not the same as Golarion gods.
Another way to approach it is to somehow reduce the godly status of a deity before they are killed. The Avatar trilogy etc in FR used this device to shake up the pantheon (while many hated it, I thought it was rather cool - for the first 4 books). The point is that the gods there were exiled by the übergod and trapped in their avatars, and thus were susceptible to physical wounds, and their powers were greatly reduced. If you had some kind of plot device like this it would also make it easier.
Bottom line, if it's fun, go for it.
Sure, it's your world. You can do what you want with your game, so long as it's fun, and so long as your players know that your gods are not the same as Golarion gods.
Another way to approach it is to somehow reduce the godly status of a deity before they are killed. The Avatar trilogy etc in FR used this device to shake up the pantheon (while many hated it, I thought it was rather cool - for the first 4 books). The point is that the gods there were exiled by the übergod and trapped in their avatars, and thus were susceptible to physical wounds, and their powers were greatly reduced. If you had some kind of plot device like this it would also make it easier.
Bottom line, if it's fun, go for it.
I second this.
When you say avatar... What exactly is that? And how would facing a god's avatar differ from facing it on the plane of existence that it resides on?
Helpful post, BTW.
I was thinking of using crazy items or equipment that would make the gods susceptible to damage from the PCs attacks, but something like what you mentioned is definitely worth consideration
When you say avatar... What exactly is that? And how would facing a god's avatar differ from facing it on the plane of existence that it resides on?
Helpful post, BTW.
I was thinking of using crazy items or equipment that would make the gods susceptible to damage from the PCs attacks, but something like what you mentioned is definitely worth consideration
An avatar is their physical form or one of them. A good modern example would be Percy Jackson where the Gods on Olympus are giants, but they become human sized and lose a little of their power when they leave Olympus.
Or to use a common theory. Jesus Christian being the avatar of Christianity's God.
When you say avatar... What exactly is that? And how would facing a god's avatar differ from facing it on the plane of existence that it resides on?
Helpful post, BTW.
I was thinking of using crazy items or equipment that would make the gods susceptible to damage from the PCs attacks, but something like what you mentioned is definitely worth considerationAn avatar is their physical form or one of them. A good modern example would be Percy Jackson where the Gods on Olympus are giants, but they become human sized and lose a little of their power when they leave Olympus.
Or to use a common theory. Jesus Christian being the avatar of Christianity's God.
GOTCHA. something I'll have to consider while putting this all down on paper.
THANKS for your time. Everybody; even the naysayers posts... posed important questions for me when defining what the gods' limits and stats need to be. ALSO I found out a friend of mine owns Deities and Demigods and I'll check that out once he gets it to me.. from what i gather that should help me tons.
If you really want to get stats for deities check out an older book called Primal Order. It is not specific to any game system but will give you an idea of what a deity can do. There are some conversion but the book predates 3.x much less pathfinder.
It does have a lot of useful stuff on deities and reasons for going through mortals. There are rules for creating deities including Joey the god of basket weaving. There is also a lot of stuff for deity vs. deity fights.
Basically what it comes down to is that a mortal can't stand up to a deity unless he is backed by another deity. But often what happens is the deities use mortals to weaken the other deities so there are rules for interactions between them.
Though one must remember the easiest way to kill a God.
** spoiler omitted **
Depends on the world, actually.
In Golarion, gods exist independent of their worshippers, and are not meaningfully empowered by them, for example.
True, but what happens to a God whose church gets wiped out? Usually no one is willing to openly worship them. After awhile they just disappear into the history books.
When you say avatar... What exactly is that? And how would facing a god's avatar differ from facing it on the plane of existence that it resides on?
Helpful post, BTW.
I was thinking of using crazy items or equipment that would make the gods susceptible to damage from the PCs attacks, but something like what you mentioned is definitely worth considerationAn avatar is their physical form or one of them. A good modern example would be Percy Jackson where the Gods on Olympus are giants, but they become human sized and lose a little of their power when they leave Olympus.
Or to use a common theory. Jesus Christian being the avatar of Christianity's God.
GOTCHA. something I'll have to consider while putting this all down on paper.
THANKS for your time. Everybody; even the naysayers posts... posed important questions for me when defining what the gods' limits and stats need to be. ALSO I found out a friend of mine owns Deities and Demigods and I'll check that out once he gets it to me.. from what i gather that should help me tons.
If you want I can throw up an avatar of one of my deities. After I finish his statblock of course. Should be finished around tomorrow evening 18:00 Missouri, USA.
Made with Pathfinder rules and whatnot? that would be helpful.
You might check out Deities and Demigods it is a 3.x sourcebook. Though you will want to figure out some epic experience or try to get the playtest for Mythic Adventures.
This would be my suggestion as well.
True, but what happens to a God whose church gets wiped out? Usually no one is willing to openly worship them. After awhile they just disappear into the history books.Though one must remember the easiest way to kill a God.
** spoiler omitted **
Depends on the world, actually.
In Golarion, gods exist independent of their worshippers, and are not meaningfully empowered by them, for example.
divine wrath on the killers
and start from scratch with a new prophet...
True, but what happens to a God whose church gets wiped out? Usually no one is willing to openly worship them. After awhile they just disappear into the history books.Though one must remember the easiest way to kill a God.
** spoiler omitted **
Depends on the world, actually.
In Golarion, gods exist independent of their worshippers, and are not meaningfully empowered by them, for example.
I'd have to agree that a viable option for defeating or undermining a deity's rule would be to wipe out its followers. Unfortunately, in my campaign the "religious restructuring" that my players are part of doesn't take place until the end... And taking out an entire church is more of a full campaign deal, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm kind of set on having a shorter, decisive adventure in which the PCs cross blades with a powerful deity. I think that would really excite the guys I play with if I can pull it off, and it would be a great ending to what's going to end up a very long campaign.
I have the concept unfortunately I haven't been able to work on it, but I can post my process soon.
If your guys are 20th level, throw a tarrasque at them, the spawn of rovagugg. It cannot be killed and they probably won't survive anyways. Or check on d20pfsrd.com for ackachekek or however you spell it. The mantis god is statted up, vorpal attacks and can rip a hole in the fabric of reality and bullrush opponents through to a plane of his choosing, such as the plane of fire...or one with no air. Even fighting a Solar or Balor lord is nigh impossible.
Faiths and Pantheons from the 3.x Forgotten Realms books has statted up deities and their avatars.
They generally have 20 outsider HD as well as 20-50HD of class levels. ~70AC. Saves of +50-60. etc. Various immunities, damage prevention, tonnes of hp. Also 'He/She is immortal'.
Avatars are basically the same as gods but lower divine rank so less SDA's.
Level 20 in Pathfinder isn't going to be high enough to kill a god of any real divine rank if they're like FR deities.
His I think are more on par with Demi-Gods... or lesser Gods not so much full on Deities...
His I think are more on par with Demi-Gods... or lesser Gods not so much full on Deities...
Yeah... I started this thread without any idea what rules and/or stats there were/are regarding deities. Much of the campaign is still in the making, and I've purposely left much of the details on the religions of the world unsaid.
There's probably no way for the PCs to take on these CR 40-50 guys that I am reading about in the Deities and Demigods book. But really only one thing has to be true of these deities so far: They have to form the center of religions.
So, adjusting my mental rough draft of the history and mechanics of religion yet again, I guess that it would make more sense for the deities to be "lesser gods" of sorts. And it could actually make some sense. The being responsible for the creation of the world would be the only deity i would call a "full-on deity." The rest would be considerably weaker, considering that they all came around since the time when the all-powerful God created the campaign world.
Faiths and Pantheons from the 3.x Forgotten Realms books has statted up deities and their avatars.
They generally have 20 outsider HD as well as 20-50HD of class levels. ~70AC. Saves of +50-60. etc. Various immunities, damage prevention, tonnes of hp. Also 'He/She is immortal'.
Avatars are basically the same as gods but lower divine rank so less SDA's.
Level 20 in Pathfinder isn't going to be high enough to kill a god of any real divine rank if they're like FR deities.
Maybe I'll have to shoot for greater than level 20 for my PCs by the time they get here. Fast XP? :3
Could always use the 3.5 xp numbers and use the epic level handbooks xp expansion.
It is faster than Pathfinder's and would probably work well. Especially if it is a small party and you don't go over board.
You can use the Deity Building rules to develop deities of varying power pretty easy... that is once you completely decipher the 3.5 complexity paradox. (10 points to anyone who gets the reference)
@ Alex:
Lots of good advice here already. Just want to help clarify a few things.
1) Regarding your question of using the monster creation rules - currently, the rules in the Pathfinder Bestiaries do not provide details for building anything past CR 25. Wait a month. The open playtest for the beta Mythic rules will be released. These should provide the tools for you to make a CR 30-ish Demigod using the Pathfinder system.
2) Regarding Deities and Demigods, and Faiths and Pantheons - these rules were designed for 3.0 (not even 3.5) edition. While definitely usable, you may run into some conversion issues. Though the people on these forums should be more than willing to help you with the mechanics of it.
3) Regarding CR discrepancies - it's best to keep in mind that a high-level party can't usually take on anything greater than 5 CR above the average party level. For a party of 20th level, that means CR 25 max. Anything more will probably be overkill. This means you might have to raise the final level of the campaign beyond 20. . .
4) Regarding PC levels of 21+: There are currently no solid rules for this in the Pathfinder system. But you do have two main options available. The first is to use the system presented in the 3.0 edition Epic Level Handbook. A few people like these rules. Many do not. I'm in the latter camp personally. But if you want to check it out and see if it works for you then by all means go for it. The second option goes back to what I said in Point One - wait a month and then try the rules for Mythic levels being released on the forums as a playtest. The actual rulebook will be released next year at Gencon 2013 but the playtest should hold you over until then.
If you do go for the Epic Level Handbook to upgrade your players keep this in mind. Wizards of the Coast made the major mistake of developing the Deities and Demigods book at nearly the exact same time as the Epic Level Handbook. Because of this, the authors of each were not aware of the rules of the other which means there are two different rulesets for high-level divinities and characters. When you put them together it doesn't always work that well. All sorts of mechanical weirdness can ensue.
Finally, if you're willing to go 3rd Party Publishing for your rules you can always check the Paizo store for something else. I believe one possible option is called "Legendary Levels" (if I get that wrong, someone correct me).
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Tony
The discrepancies between the two books are ridiculous, but anyone skilled enough can take the concept and use it.
4) Regarding PC levels of 21+: There are currently no solid rules for this in the Pathfinder system. But you do have two main options available. The first is to use the system presented in the 3.0 edition Epic Level Handbook. A few people like these rules. Many do not. I'm in the latter camp personally. But if you want to check it out and see if it works for you then by all means go for it. The second option goes back to what I said in Point One - wait a month and then try the rules for Mythic levels being released on the forums as a playtest. The actual rulebook will be released next year at Gencon 2013 but the playtest should hold you over until then.
If you do go for the Epic Level Handbook to upgrade your players keep this in mind. Wizards of the Coast made the major mistake of developing the Deities and Demigods book at nearly the exact same time as the Epic Level Handbook. Because of this, the authors of each were not aware of the rules of the other which means there are two different rulesets for high-level divinities and characters. When you put them together it doesn't always work that well. All sorts of mechanical weirdness can ensue.
You might have just saved my ass completely, I'm almost as new to GMing as I am to Pathfinder itself, and I have no idea about most of this stuff. I think I'll wait until that playtest comes around and use whatever I can from it, instead of making love to a dozen different sets of rules, so to speak, and ending up with something totally, grotesquely, game-killing.
Thanks for that image Alex... thanks a lot... so I am guess this is your first full setting you have put together then?
Yep, they are often made too damn strong for players to battle and defeat. Games like Dark Souls do it well though, everything has a weakness no matter its size and power. I like that killing gods is possible in that game, but god-slaying isn't really anything for those below 18th level.
Course, you could just make them weaker, or the gods are fought through avatars and great champions.
Hmm, its a weakness of the hobby that god-killing is so hard. Too much of a jump in power.
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@3.5 Loyalist: why did I just picture a Shadow of the Colossus style fight with a Deity?
Oh a Titan might work for their avatar!
Why not allow characters beyond 20th level have the ability to battle gods? I care more about my players enjoyment than about random gods in a game of pretend.
I don't think it's a matter of "letting" them fight gods. It's more a matter of the OP needing a solid ruleset to work from since he doesn't have much experience with this sort of thing.
Why not allow characters beyond 20th level have the ability to battle gods? I care more about my players enjoyment than about random gods in a game of pretend.
I second this!
I don't think it's a matter of "letting" them fight gods. It's more a matter of the OP needing a solid ruleset to work from since he doesn't have much experience with this sort of thing.
Could always do what my buddy did... she took a Good aligned outsider and applied Simple Templates til it got ridiculous.
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It all depends on your campaign's notion of the power scale, really. Old-school D&D was a lot like Greek mythology, assuming that powerful mortals (level 14-20 or so) could challenge gods directly. Nowadays, most campaign settings have numerous high-level NPCs as fixtures of the world - for example, the king of a country being 15th level, and served by underlings of levels up to 12.
Personally, I favor the former interpretation. A lot of traditional storylines have difficulty maintaining verisimilitude if NPCs over level 6 are common... mostly because certain high-level spells have far-reaching consequences. The downside is that popular monsters like balors, solars, and the like make little sense if interpreted as followers of a deity. Dragons of sufficient age would also become tantamount to gods in their own right.
Personally, if trying to make a capstone encounter with a deity, I'd give them freeform abilities not easily converted into measurable statistics or challenge rating - make players think of solutions outside the normal combat "box." For example...
The benefit is that the combat is meaningfully different, at least in some small way, than just beating on the deity with sword and spell until it inevitably succumbs like any other entity. This is a pretty similar idea to 3.5 Loyalist's mention of everything having a weakness. In this case, I think style should dictate that the weakness is actually the downside of some phenomenal cosmic power tied to the deity's portfolio. A god of might could be ponderously slow, for example, or a god of nature could be poisoned by the merest touch of an alloyed or forged metal. Try to think of extremes of ability or spirituality that would be a double-edged sword to actually possess.
@3.5 Loyalist: why did I just picture a Shadow of the Colossus style fight with a Deity?
Oh a Titan might work for their avatar!
Exactly! Now you are cooking with some dead gods.
There are all sorts of fluff explanations, god has to diminish power so as to not attract enemy hit teams, it is important for the god/avatar to make a stand here. I think the gods are made too strong, because the designers didn't want players making too many easy changes to their worlds.
Oh this god, it is greater, you can't defeat this god adventurers. Even a minor would be beyond your abilities, haw haw haw.
Give them great powers, impressive stats, make them kill-able, good times.
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My goal for my upcoming AP is the characters goals are to destroy an Evil Deity's many Titan-power level Avatars. Once the final avatar falls the God themselves will be reduced to nothing but a Titan with a butt-load of templates.
P.S.: I love the Smell of Roasted God with little tiny onions. :3
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Fried onions are the best. Knock down the avatars, smite the believers, destroy the temples and kill the big bad boss. Then sit on the overthrown temple steps like a bad ass, like Conan.
Fried onions are the best. Knock down the avatars, smite the believers, destroy the temples and kill the big bad boss. Then sit on the overthrown temple steps like a bad ass, like Conan.
That is more or less bow it should go...
Each "Titan" defends/rules a Temple destroy the Titan you destroy the temple.
I'm thinking 25 temples should do for this God.
To battle dieties you need a setting that allows that. Most setting don't allow that as the God has no stats.
I think a world where gods were just immortal beings who could be killed that were walking the world would be interesting. If I were to do it I'd make Gods nothing but a mortal who has take up the mantel of set of Domains. The mortal could be just commoner and easily defeated on their own. But in the game each believer a God has adds to their power. I might do this by saying each follower adds 1 hp to the mortal. Hundred thousand believers and you have +100,000 hitpoints. Maybe every 1000 believers gives you +1 SR, +1 to saves, and 1 DR\-. Now try and defeat a god with Saves and an SR over 100 and that many hitpoints. If you wanted to kill the god you destroy their power base the go after them when they are weak. But doing so puts you at risk of the God coming after you. But if said go was just commoner they might be hard to kill but not much of a threat. I wouldn't make the God attack any better than abilities of the mortal that became the god. So if 20th level fighter did this good luck in killing but as high level character you should be able to avoid the God till you weaken them.
I think I actually might run a game like this. I'll have to think on this a bit more. Might wait till the Mythic Adventures book comes out next year.
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To battle dieties you need a setting that allows that. Most setting don't allow that as the God has no stats.
I think a world where gods were just immortal beings who could be killed that were walking the world would be interesting. If I were to do it I'd make Gods nothing but a mortal who has take up the mantel of set of Domains. The mortal could be just commoner and easily defeated on their own. But in the game each believer a God has adds to their power. I might do this by saying each follower adds 1 hp to the mortal. Hundred thousand believers and you have +100,000 hitpoints. Maybe every 1000 believers gives you +1 SR, +1 to saves, and 1 DR\-. Now try and defeat a god with Saves and an SR over 100 and that many hitpoints. If you wanted to kill the god you destroy their power base the go after them when they are weak. But doing so puts you at risk of the God coming after you. But if said go was just commoner they might be hard to kill but not much of a threat. I wouldn't make the God attack any better than abilities of the mortal that became the god. So if 20th level fighter did this good luck in killing but as high level character you should be able to avoid the God till you weaken them.
I think I actually might run a game like this. I'll have to think on this a bit more. Might wait till the Mythic Adventures book comes out next year.
I would make it for every sat 1000 followers they gain 1 HD of Outsider.