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I would love to do more crafting, however with all of the different items to make figuring out what pluses I get and what are required to make the item has sort of eluded me. Too many things spread out over too many books.
Anyhow if there was a flowchart that helped you figure all of that out it would be great.
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So when is the "Simulacrum Magic Item Creation Factory" going to be fixed?
Well, for you to get this simulacrum factory up, you need to be able to spend gold equal to 500 x half your level first. So, say you are level 13, when you would actually get the spell simulacrum. You'd have to make the simulacrum level 6 (rounding down for 13/2), so that would be 3,000 gp. Not bad admittedly, but you have a creature that is half as effective as you are with crafting. It can ignore prerequisites of course, but because it can never gain levels or advance in any way, it will be stuck building the things a level 6 person could build. Now, you could build another simulacrum buddy to help him out, but again, that's another 3,000 gp you are shelling out to create him.
Now, at level 13, you should have approximately 140,000 gp worth of items on hand. Some of this is probably in the form of magic items you have already crafted for yourself, found, or bought. We can't really make any assumptions on if you crafted all of your items, since that takes time and that can heavily change depending on the campaign. Either way, that value is useful for you currently as it helps out your character. You'd have to figure out a way to gain the capital to fund your simulacrums for your factory. Consider that to get to level 14's WBL value (185,000 gp) requires 45,000 gp. Each expenditure of a simulacrum will run you about 6.6% of that value. Chances are, you'll want two or more simulacrums to help each other, so that makes 13.3% of your WBL value dedicated to this factory.
In addition, these simulacrum will not have the same items that you do to boost crafting. They won't have the same intelligence because they won't have a headband of +2 Int, unless you craft one for them. Again, that is another expenditure that you'll have to deal with. Two headbands of +2 will run you 2,000 gp each (4,000 gp or 11.4% of the WBL it takes to get to level 14). That totals up to 24.7% of what you'd need to get to a level 14 WBL value, assuming you really want them to do well. Chances are you probably won't need anything higher than a +2 headband.
Now, these simulacrums could make lower CL stuff, but what you want is to make the higher level stuff for your party right? Well, remember that the Spellcraft DC is 5 + Caster Level of the item. In addition, it's an additions +5 for every prerequisite you don't meet. Also, because they are level 6 technically (for this example), you cannot build rods, staves, or rings. So you are left with wondrous items and arms/armor, which is still nice. That said, to make higher level items with these simulacrum, you will need more simulacrum with Cooperative Crafting so they can aid each other. That costs more money that you could be spending on crafting things yourself. Remember that it only gives you a +2 bonus and you are dealing with a +5 deficit from not meeting prerequisites. So for every +5 you can't meet, you need at least two simulacrum to come close to make up for it. Getting past a +10 would require five, 15,000 gp simulacrum with Cooperative Crafting. 15,000 gp is 33.3% of your WBL value it'd take for level 14. Adding in headbands of +2 intelligence for each of them (10,000 total) and now you are spending 55.5% of your wealth on this factory, assuming you want to give them headbands.
Honestly, it just isn't worth it money-wise and quite frankly, you are better off spending a feat on Leadership to get a caster that can level with you and craft better. And before you say that GMs ban Leadership, well, GMs can ban this "simulacrum factory".
Anyways, perhaps we should move this to another thread. I don't want to derail this one with simulacrum math.
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In an upcoming sourcebook, we're going to write additional material for the magic item crafting rules, further explaining and clarifying the nuances of how this works.
Hi Sean, would you please let us know which sourcebook product to look for this content? I want to make sure that I pick this one up. Thanks
One I get from my munchkin player, is "Can I make ability score enhancing items with odd bonuses?" Like a +1 belt of strength.
I'd like to see feats in that book that allows you to use magic item creation rules for traps, poisons, and other obnoxiously expensive mundane items. I'm looking at you, Adamantine Full Plate.
"If an oracle of Nature uses Undo Artifice on a magic item, does she essentially end up with its creation cost worth of raw materials for further magic item creation?" If so, I'd like to see more chipper-shredder like abilities. Weird that a nature oracle can do that, but an artificer wizard can't.
i have one thing to say in regards to item crafting, with regards to it being 'broken'
the designers are aware that crafting means you can get an item at half price, and that is probably accommodated for when they calculated suggested WBL
that is, they expect you to craft, and they expect you to be economical, if you as a player or as a GM have issue with that, its on you to cap it, not on the designers
issues with item crafting with regards to pricing are the same issues with min-maxing and optimizing damage outputs, and if a player wants to put in the effort and waste the resources to do it (being the feats, required skill ranks in spellcraft, required ranks in [other associated craft skill], and the in game time when a GM wants a campaign to be going on) then they deserve a little benefit
as opposed to a player who does no research into economically benefiting their character who is going to be paying full price. We should not punish PCs for playing smarter
the crafting rules themselves are well balanced with the exception of INT based casters, who are designed to be item crafters anyway
the CL of items is meant to represent the recommended spellcraft ranks of the crafter, and the +5 DC is from the +3 class skill + whatever their INT is (for any crafter not INT based, this will most likely be very low) meaning to [guarantee] my item is successfully crafted, i have to have an INT of +2 and my CL much match the Cl of the item
for anyone that isnt a wizard, this is pretty balanced
wizards who net a +5-8 for checks can craft things about 2-3 levels sooner than the items CLs, which isnt even that bad
and thats barring any lack of pre-reqs upping the DC
@SKR- i am curious about crafting certain items and needing to have the ranks in the associated craft skills, and whether or not being able to provide the item can nullify that
example: my paladin/cleric doesn't have ranks into Craft(armor) or Craft(blacksmith) but i can provide a Masterwork Full Plate Armor, do i still need to roll a Craft(armor) check upon using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat to turn the armor magical?
if it hasnt been made clear that someone wants clarification on this, i would like to reiterate the desire for rules regarding crafting with a lack of prerequisites, does one need to provide some sort of substitute? Or is that something the designers would rather leave in the hands of the GM?
obviously the question can be reworked into "do i +5 the crafting DC of an item when i can otherwise provide for the prereq i lack by paying a NPC caster who has what i lack or using scrolls for each day of the crafting?"
and the days to craft is based on the actual Base price or half the Base price that i'm actually paying?
thanks
One I get from my munchkin player, is "Can I make ability score enhancing items with odd bonuses?" Like a +1 belt of strength.
I'd like to see feats in that book that allows you to use magic item creation rules for traps, poisons, and other obnoxiously expensive mundane items. I'm looking at you, Adamantine Full Plate.
"If an oracle of Nature uses Undo Artifice on a magic item, does she essentially end up with its creation cost worth of raw materials for further magic item creation?" If so, I'd like to see more chipper-shredder like abilities. Weird that a nature oracle can do that, but an artificer wizard can't.
While I'm not a dev, I think I could give some aid here.
Any item not listed in the book is a custom item that you as a DM have to specifically allow. Generally, it is not recommended to allow odd bonuses due to how point buy and ability modifiers work - that's why there are no in the book despite them being easy to add.
There are rules for accelerated crafting of poisons; IIRC, alchemist have some, there's some rogue talents or archetype that does too, and a feat. There are ranger traps if you want to create traps quickly, but those are very different to normal traps.
When an oracle of nature uses undo artifice, she reduces the item to it's _natural_ components, and there's no physical natural form of magic (at least not in this context); basically, if she takes a +4 battleaxe, the item gets a save with +6 due to it's GP value, and if the save fails, the battleaxe is reduced to a piece of raw iron (or whatever it was made of) and a wooden stick (or whatever the handle was made of). That's how I understand the ability at least.
When an oracle of nature uses undo artifice, she reduces the item to it's _natural_ components, and there's no physical natural form of magic (at least not in this context); basically, if she takes a +4 battleaxe, the item gets a save with +6 due to it's GP value, and if the save fails, the battleaxe is reduced to a piece of raw iron (or whatever it was made of) and a wooden stick (or whatever the handle was made of). That's how I understand the ability at least.
What is the raw material cost of magic items, then?
To make a +4 battleaxe, I take 100 and change gold worth of stuff to get a masterwork battleaxe, and 16000 gp worth of what to enchant it? What am I spending my money on, if not stuff that somehow becomes part of the axe?
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Don't confuse market value with base price.
Base price is a solid and immutable reference for calculating materials, costs, and market price.
Items require materials equal to half the base price. Market value can change and isn't a good reference (even if no one actually uses it for purchasing things)
Also where as magic itself has no physical form, it usually requires mundane physical items, aka material componants, thus when undo artifice is cast, the material componants required for the itemcraft version of the spell will also be there, though these materials may be different then the ones used for normal casting of the spell.
It turns it into raw 'natural' material. Magic is not natural, it's magic. It would be reduced to the raw natural material of the item broken down. A mundane item is always made of 1/3 it's market value in materials. So the battle axe is being reduced to 1/3 x 310gp = 103gold and 33 silver worth of iron.
I'd agree that a +4 battleaxe is 16000 gp worth of "magic", 16000 gp worth of "crafting materials", 103.33 worth of "axe parts", and 206.67 worth of "hammering".
I paid money in exchange for the "axe parts" and the "crafting materials". I put them in my pocket. I have a receipt.
What are crafting materials made of, that makes them inherently unnatural?
When an oracle of nature uses undo artifice, she reduces the item to it's _natural_ components, and there's no physical natural form of magic (at least not in this context); basically, if she takes a +4 battleaxe, the item gets a save with +6 due to it's GP value, and if the save fails, the battleaxe is reduced to a piece of raw iron (or whatever it was made of) and a wooden stick (or whatever the handle was made of). That's how I understand the ability at least.What is the raw material cost of magic items, then?
To make a +4 battleaxe, I take 100 and change gold worth of stuff to get a masterwork battleaxe, and 16000 gp worth of what to enchant it? What am I spending my money on, if not stuff that somehow becomes part of the axe?
Basically, nothing lasting. Or, like, you can rule whatever you like as the rules are silent on it, but it could be a number of things. Oils that makes the magic stick to the axe. Knowledge of how to enchant it. Incense burned as part of the ritual.
There's a large chance that whatever it is, is of little value in its natural form. Magical incenses are already burned, oils as raw oils. On the other hand, you could rule that it's laced with dust of a perfect diamond and that it is restored to that perfect diamond and you can sell it of - it's up to you, the rules are silent on it.
My guess is that the intent of the rules are that you don't get anything of more than marginal value, however.
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So basically 16000 gp worth of catalysts?
I don't like your answer, but rather than argue, I'll agree that the rules are silent on the issue. High five! This is what the thread is for.
The "nature" of crafting materials might be worth discussing in the upcoming book.
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The nature of crafting materials is a pertinent question when it comes to what you can purchase in a town.
Example: You want to purchase 2000 gp of materials in a town with a purchase limit of 1000gp. Can you do it because the 2000gp in materials is not a single item or are you unable to?
I can see it going either way.
- Gauss
* We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to. This book isn't going to invalidate the Core Rulebook.
bro....
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Hoping there is still time to add something in the book, 2 questions?
1) Using the "enchanting while adventuring" rules, it is possible to use the item while it is enchanted?
I don't mean the actual time in which the spellcaster is working with the item, but the remaining part of the day, i.e. if the wizard is enchanting a weapon during the late evening, it is possible to use the same weapon at his old enhancement level during the morning?
2) If not, what happen with bonded items?
A wizard, arcane duelist bard, soul forger magus will suffer huge drawbacks if he has to put aside his bonded item for a long period to enchant it. Anything more that a very basic enchantment will limit his abilities for a long time, practically negating the advantage of being capable to enchant a bonded item.
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@Aeyrs, it is not a FAQ, it will be a chapter in a future soucebook. I assume it will be in the Ultimate Campaign book but I can be wrong.
EDIT: corrected by MDT and Cheapy. :-P
I jumped over a lot of recent posts to place my two questions, I will read them in the future.
I hope SKR is still reading this thread and hasn't been turned away by what seem to be a lot of off topic posts.
@Aeyrs, it is not a FAQ, it will be a chapter in a future soucebook. I assume it will be in the Ultimate Campaign book but I can be wrong.
SKR also promised an FAQ in January on the whole 'what can be overcome with a +5 to DC in crafting' question. Given it's the 31st, and there's been no FAQ, I'm guessing that was forgotten or decided against.
A more likely answer appears here:
We're shipping a big book this week (and ordering freelance for another big book this week) and it's eaten into my time available to get ahead of the ball on the next round's rules, so I didn't get the rules over to the tech team until about an hour ago.
FAQs tend to fall to the wayside when big deadlines are looming.
A more likely answer appears here:
We're shipping a big book this week (and ordering freelance for another big book this week) and it's eaten into my time available to get ahead of the ball on the next round's rules, so I didn't get the rules over to the tech team until about an hour ago.FAQs tend to fall to the wayside when big deadlines are looming.
I know, I just wish they'd quit saying FAQ's are important. Important things aren't the last thing you do, they're something you prioritize. Just come out and say 'FAQs are our lowest priority, but we will get to them as we can' instead of continually posting how important they are and that they will be done by date X, when it's laughably obvious they aren't important and will not be delivered by date X.
Sorry, but the whole flurry of blows taking a year (or close enough to) to resolve has burned out what generosity I had toward work schedules and the claim that FAQs are important. Nothing important requires a year to resolve.
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I understand the frustration. I'm at the stage where I'd probably rather have maintenance updates rather than new rules.
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It is very simple: FAQs don't pay your wages or create a new product. They can help you sell another product as people see that you don't abandon them on the wayside as soon as they are outside your door, but any commercial activity need to prioritize what make money directly even if producing FAQs is in important.
I think that, so far, Paizo has managed a decent balance. Not perfect. but better than average.
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It is very simple: FAQs don't pay your wages or create a new product. They can help you sell another product as people see that you don't abandon them on the wayside as soon as they are outside your door, but any commercial activity need to prioritize what make money directly even if producing FAQs is in important.
I think that, so far, Paizo has managed a decent balance. Not perfect. but better than average.
Again, I understand this. But when people post 'We find this very important and we are working on it' and then a year goes by, it really honestly does come off as 'We have this as our lowest priority, but it is important to people, so we will string you along as long as we can put it off'. I'm not saying that is what they are doing, I am saying that is it how it comes across.
I understand the frustration. I'm at the stage where I'd probably rather have maintenance updates rather than new rules.
That would be great, if it happens.
My concern is, obviously, that it's a low priority, so not sure how long it will take to put something in place when it's one of the lowest priority things they work on. *shrug* I did say I was jaded out after the year long response time on monks right?
Hoping there is still time to add something in the book, 2 questions@Aeyrs, it is not a FAQ, it will be a chapter in a future soucebook. I assume it will be in the Ultimate Campaign book but I can be wrong.
Sean mentioned to me last GenCon he would be creating this thread and the clarifications would be in the upcoming Ultimate Campaign. Now, that was over 5 months ago, so it could have changed.
However, as the description in Ultimate Campaign says this:
A complete system for tracking what your character does between adventures, from opening a tavern to crafting a powerful magic item.
I am guessing that we will see the clarifications in this book.
I guess I'd like to know if you can only make the 1000gp in 8 hours per day, and fast crafting lets you do that 1000gp progress in 4 hours...
+
If you craft in a nice serene environment you can craft for the full 8 hours but if you craft on the road you can only squeeze in 4 hours of crafting but it accounts for 2 hours of progress (ostensibly because the crafting you're doing is during lunch breaks and before going to bed and such)...
However.... I have a sustenance ring so I only need to sleep 2 hours per night and don't plan to break up my travel crafting into a little chunk here and there throughout the day...
If i'm on the road, using secure shelter, using accelerated crafting, does that mean i can do my full 1000gp of progress in 4 hours or does being on the road still mean my progress is cut in half so its 8 hours of crafting cut to 4 from being on the road but at double rate from fast crafting means 500gp of progress?
Really what i'm shooting for is say I'm using "arcane builder for the 25% reduction in crafting time... secure shelter for the uninterrupted cozy environment... sustenance ring for the contiguous uninterrupted crafting time... Is that the full 1000gp per day of crafting in only 3 hours even while on the road? Is that RAW?
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Sean, could something be done for the priceing of staffs. They seem very over priced to me. I have Played PFS for 3 years and never seen a Player character or an NPC use a Staff. Staffs are the most iconic arcane caster magic items all through out the fanstay genre.
Could you or one of thee other DEV's make a table for current pricing of staffs with the cost of the primary spell secondry etc.
Could you also give guidlines for puting metamagiced spells on staffs.
Ok, I skimmed this thread and mainly read Sean's posts and those around them. I've also done some forum searches to see if this has been addressed elsewhere.
Is there any official explanation of how master craftsman works? I am not looking for interpretation, we already have a thread for that.
Thanks in advance.
Sean, could something be done for the priceing of staffs. They seem very over priced to me. I have Played PFS for 3 years and never seen a Player character or an NPC use a Staff. Staffs are the most iconic arcane caster magic items all through out the fanstay genre.
Could you or one of thee other DEV's make a table for current pricing of staffs with the cost of the primary spell secondry etc.
Could you also give guidlines for puting metamagiced spells on staffs.
They aren't changing the rules in core, so no pricing changes.
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One I get from my munchkin player, is "Can I make ability score enhancing items with odd bonuses?" Like a +1 belt of strength.
The developers are strongly against that. There are a few post here and there by SKR and, I think, by Jason Bullman too saying that characteristic enhancing items with odd bonuses don't exist (with the exceptions of the books). As a GM you can allow those in your game (I do):
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The candle of invocation+gate+big outsider thing: you lit it and then walk away like hell while maintaining your concentration.
You cast expeditious retreat and protection from [appropriate alignment] before lighting it so that you move fast and can't be dominated and take care of lighting it in a location where you can move around the corner as soon as you have lit it.
Breaking line of sight can do wonderful things for your survival in this scenario.
AFAIK concentration has no range limit.
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Ok, I skimmed this thread and mainly read Sean's posts and those around them. I've also done some forum searches to see if this has been addressed elsewhere.
Is there any official explanation of how master craftsman works? I am not looking for interpretation, we already have a thread for that.
Thanks in advance.
I am not really sure what is questionable about it, so if I didn't address something, sorry.
At 5th level, you have 5 ranks in craft weapons, you select the master craftsman feat.
You now qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, so you take that feat at 7th level.
At that point you have put 7 ranks into craft weapons.
This counts as CL for meeting the prerequisites for crafting weapons.
So I have a masterwork longsword and I want to add anarchic. I have 7 ranks incraft weapon which meets the CL 7 requirement, I have the creation feat, I am chaotic, so the only requisite I am missing is the spell Chaos hammer, which can be provided for with scrolls or a friendly caster. If neither can be found, the DC is increased.
Next step, craft as normal.
I don't know if it been answered before, or it's better serve by a FAQ, but does Master Craftsman feat implie that a non-caster is crafting the magical item, or simply allow him to imbue magical properties into an existing item?
Thanks
For what it's worth, during the beta when master craftsman was announced, there really wasn't any widespread confusion about how the feat worked from what I can tell. Thus there wasn't really a need for Jason to clarify it. There were a few questions here or there, but none answered.
Ok, I skimmed this thread and mainly read Sean's posts and those around them. I've also done some forum searches to see if this has been addressed elsewhere.
Is there any official explanation of how master craftsman works? I am not looking for interpretation, we already have a thread for that.
Thanks in advance.
I am not really sure what is questionable about it, so if I didn't address something, sorry.
At 5th level, you have 5 ranks in craft weapons, you select the master craftsman feat.
You now qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, so you take that feat at 7th level.
At that point you have put 7 ranks into craft weapons.
This counts as CL for meeting the prerequisites for crafting weapons.
So I have a masterwork longsword and I want to add anarchic. I have 7 ranks incraft weapon which meets the CL 7 requirement, I have the creation feat, I am chaotic, so the only requisite I am missing is the spell Chaos hammer, which can be provided for with scrolls or a friendly caster. If neither can be found, the DC is increased.
Next step, craft as normal.
I think it as simple as that, and I have argued the same elsewhere.
There are a lot of vociferous defenders of 'Profession (beggar) lets me craft Excalibur' out there. I just want something to favorite to show when this issue comes up.
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Ok, I skimmed this thread and mainly read Sean's posts and those around them. I've also done some forum searches to see if this has been addressed elsewhere.
Is there any official explanation of how master craftsman works? I am not looking for interpretation, we already have a thread for that.
Thanks in advance.
I am not really sure what is questionable about it, so if I didn't address something, sorry.
At 5th level, you have 5 ranks in craft weapons, you select the master craftsman feat.
You now qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, so you take that feat at 7th level.
At that point you have put 7 ranks into craft weapons.
This counts as CL for meeting the prerequisites for crafting weapons.
So I have a masterwork longsword and I want to add anarchic. I have 7 ranks incraft weapon which meets the CL 7 requirement, I have the creation feat, I am chaotic, so the only requisite I am missing is the spell Chaos hammer, which can be provided for with scrolls or a friendly caster. If neither can be found, the DC is increased.
Next step, craft as normal.
Some people think that you can use any craft or profession to enchant any kind of item, independently from what you are enchanting and your profession.
They think you can use Craft (Alchemy) to enchant a sword if you have master craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Or even, as Whale Cancer said, Profession (beggar) to do that if that is the skill you have chosen with your Master Craftsman feat.
It generally assumes he's doing both. So you actually have your standard craft check to make the masterwork item that you're going to enchant with another craft check in the second stage of the process. the whole point of Master Craftsman is the " no spellcaster required" part of the deal.I don't know if it been answered before, or it's better serve by a FAQ, but does Master Craftsman feat implie that a non-caster is crafting the magical item, or simply allow him to imbue magical properties into an existing item?
Thanks
The master craftsman feat - other than providing a +2 bonus on the craft or profession skill in question - does not modify mundane crafting.
You can forge that masterwork longsword you are going to later turn into a magic item, but you might as well just buy one given how crappy the mundane crafting rules are.
The feat specifically allows you to craft magic items as a wizard does; that is to say, it allows you to imbue it with magical power (I really wish the whole line of craft feats used the word 'imbue' instead, as that is what you are really doing).
You can't combine all of that (manufacture and imbue) into one roll, as the physical creation of the item takes a long time (not to mention the item and the masterwork component are two different checks). And, of course, you need to make an item masterwork in order to imbue/enchant/craft it!
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One thing that came up when I was trying to create an item that had a continuous effect as a spell, but since it was constantly on, I wanted it a little watered down.
For example: Say a shield spell that is always on, but only offers a +2 shield bonus to AC, like the ring of force shield of sorts or heroism that offers a set +1 morale bonus to attack, skill and ability checks, and saving throws but constantly, how would you price something like that?
I am assuming that it would be a % off the cost, but that is something that I would like to see added to the list of cost factors.