Put it on a familiar.
A GM isn't helpless against this tactic. Powerful outsiders governing time/space, the logic behind what Time Stop is, the fact that someone/something powerful will notice after the first time this trick is used....it goes on and on. PCs do not exist in a vacuum and are not automatons capable of going on and on forever.Well, if you have to rely on GM fiat, that's a pretty good sign that something is very wrong with the item.
And technically, GMs are not helpless against any tactic, they can always simply say "No."
GM: This doesn't work.
Player: Why not? It's RAW.
GM: Because SCREW YOU, that's why.
Very true, I saw that a lot last weekend in a non-pathfinder super heroes game.
It went somewhere along the lines of this:
"GM: No you can not play a hero that has both super speed and duplicate spell, that would be 50 attacks per round.
Player: But,
GM: No."
Wasn't there a metamagic feat that let you do this in 3.5? How many spell levels did you have to add to that?
So new mundane arms and armor, along with potential re-balancing and errata was sacrificed for.... a bunch of new magic items that are horribly designed? For better (this ring) or worse (bodywraps)?
I appreciate the effort put into this book, and I still appreciate Paizo... and now that I've had more time to read the book I know that there are /some/ well written parts... but this book is definitely a huge disappointment for me.
Wasn't there a metamagic feat that let you do this in 3.5? How many spell levels did you have to add to that?
Yes. Persistent Spell, which added 6 levels to the spell.
Of course, the cleric feat Divine Metamagic allowed infinite amounts of cheese on top of that, since the cleric could then instead spend 6 turn undead attempts in place of adding to the spell level.
Either way, you only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions. In the second case, those actions just take a full 24 hours to complete.
I like that interpretation :)
Actually this isnt a new item. It was around in 2nd edition by a different name, I first saw it in the Magic Item Encyclopedia (think that what those 4 books were called?) It didnt end the world then, so my guess is it wont end the gameworld now either.
Just remembered, I think it was called a Ring of Infinite Spell Loop. Lol, I remeber there was this barrier spell a mage could cast that set up any offensive spell cast into it as a damage shield effect for the duration of the barrier.So, I used one of these rings, cast the barrier, and put vampiric touch in it. Thereafter, anyone attacking me took a vampiric touch per hit. Nasty! Of course, not something you want up all the time, in case you run into undead!
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Wouldn't using time stop with this ring technically slow you down?
Time stop without the ring:
Spell duration: 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time;
Spell effect: You can perform 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.Time stop with the ring:
Spell duration: 24 hours (of apparent time?);
Spell effect: You can perform 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.Either way, you only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions. In the second case, those actions just take a full 24 hours to complete.
Epic Meepo, you just fixed this ring!
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Wouldn't using time stop with this ring technically slow you down?
Time stop without the ring:
Spell duration: 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time;
Spell effect: You can perform 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.Time stop with the ring:
Spell duration: 24 hours (of apparent time?);
Spell effect: You can perform 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.Either way, you only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions. In the second case, those actions just take a full 24 hours to complete.
This is an interesting interpretation. The spell duration increases to 24 hours, but the spell description still only says you have 1d4+1 rounds. So basically you take those actions and then wait 24 hours for the spell to wear off? Sounds boring for the wizard.
Personally, I think using time altering effects on a time altering spell would cause some sort of temporal rift, similar to what happens when you put a bag of holding in a portable hole :P
Yar.
The text of Time Stops duration is exactly: "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text"
So the 1d4+1 rounds of actions in the text is linked to this duration, as indicated by the duration text. Hence why many believe that it would give you 24 hours worth of actions in 1 round (of time experienced for everyone else), which could include sleeping and preparing new spells.
LazerX: Your houserules are nice, but why should your houserule be expected as the balancing factor in a published item?
Also, you really need to re-read rules before you post a rules argument as fact. Your memory is not perfect. Neither is mine. I dare say, no one's memory is perfect. However, posting rules from memory and getting them wrong (ie: Time Stop duration in Pathfinder is Personal) only adds to other peoples confusion.
Also also: sure, the scope and power level of the players and enemies in the game may be different at high levels vs low levels, this ring has the potential to make even high level play a "totally different game" from regular high level play. That, in my opinion, IS an issue.
Thanks.
~P
Yar.
We still have 24 hour haste via the valor spell.So.. like a +1 shortsword of speed?
A +1 shortsword of speed only gives you an extra attack on a full attack. It does not increase your movement speed by +30, it does not give you a +1 dodge bonus to your AC, and it does not give you a +1 dodge bonus to your Reflex saves. Haste does all off this.
They are similar effects, but they are not the same thing.
~P
Yar.
The text of Time Stops duration is exactly: "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text"
So the 1d4+1 rounds of actions in the text is linked to this duration, as indicated by the duration text. Hence why many believe that it would give you 24 hours worth of actions in 1 round (of time experienced for everyone else), which could include sleeping and preparing new spells.
LazerX: Your houserules are nice, but why should your houserule be expected as the balancing factor in a published item?
Also, you really need to re-read rules before you post a rules argument as fact. Your memory is not perfect. Neither is mine. I dare say, no one's memory is perfect. However, posting rules from memory and getting them wrong (ie: Time Stop duration in Pathfinder is Personal) only adds to other peoples confusion.
Also also: sure, the scope and power level of the players and enemies in the game may be different at high levels vs low levels, this ring has the potential to make even high level play a "totally different game" from regular high level play. That, in my opinion, IS an issue.
Thanks.
~P
Yes, the duration of the spell and the number of actions you can take in the duration is usually linked. But note in this specific instance, the item modifies the duration of the spell whilst doing nothing about the text. It's what happens when you carelessly play with the parameters of powerful spells.
Yar.
Usually, as in: every time this spell has ever been used by anyone before this ring appeared? Sorry for the gross generalization, but the 1d4+1 rounds in Time Stops duration is not clearly separate from the 1d4+1 rounds of actions in the descriptive text as is now being implied. To take that further, does that mean that Time Stop lets the caster take 1d4+1 rounds of actions per round for 1d4+1 rounds? That is what having the two not linked progresses to.
Believe me, I'm not defending the use of Time Stop with this Ring, I'm saying that as things stand at this moment, there are serious issues with the combination, as well as the fact that the ring functions on a generic clause. Thus, with every newly published spell, this rings power and versatility increases, and that is not reflected in the cost of the ring (and dare I say, should not be at all in the first place, akin to the polymorph issues of yore).
...and before anyone brings it up: Yes, a +1 shortsword gives you a +1 to attacks. But a +1 shortsword of speed still only gives a +1 to your attacks, while that in conjunction with haste will give you an additional +1 (netting a +2 total).
~P
As for time stop, using time stop and the ring in tandem won't enable you to rest, because time stop doesn't actually stop or even slow the passage of time - it simply makes you move quickly, and changes your perceptions regarding the passage of time. If the duration of time stop were changed to "24 hours," then the spell would cause you to take 24 apparent hours to experience 1 actual round. There are ten rounds in a minute, and a hundred rounds in an hour. In order to rest for 8 actual hours (plus 1 hour for preparing spells), you'd have to rest for nine 900 days of apparent time.A side note: If I were running a game wherein a PC used the ring in this way, these guys would be after you in droves, and so would these guys. And if I were your GM, I'd hit you with this little gem from the GameMaster's Guide's "insanity rules," as well:
At your option, a creature can run the risk of going insane under extremely unusual situations, even when his mental ability scores are unharmed.Daron Woodson
Abandoned ArtsThis.
A GM isn't helpless against this tactic. Powerful outsiders governing time/space, the logic behind what Time Stop is, the fact that someone/something powerful will notice after the first time this trick is used....it goes on and on. PCs do not exist in a vacuum and are not automatons capable of going on and on forever.
Was going to be my response too. Actually had a cleric do this is 3.5 with Divine Meta-magic and Timestop. The first time an Inevitable showed up and said "Never again. Ever. Understand?".
That pretty much stopped that.
But even excluding the insanely broken combo's this item seems far to powerful.
Yar.
Usually, as in: every time this spell has ever been used by anyone before this ring appeared? Sorry for the gross generalization, but the 1d4+1 rounds in Time Stops duration is not clearly separate from the 1d4+1 rounds of actions in the descriptive text as is now being implied. To take that further, does that mean that Time Stop lets the caster take 1d4+1 rounds of actions per round for 1d4+1 rounds? That is what having the two not linked progresses to.
Believe me, I'm not defending the use of Time Stop with this Ring, I'm saying that as things stand at this moment, there are serious issues with the combination, as well as the fact that the ring functions on a generic clause. Thus, with every newly published spell, this rings power and versatility increases, and that is not reflected in the cost of the ring (and dare I say, should not be at all in the first place, akin to the polymorph issues of yore).
...and before anyone brings it up: Yes, a +1 shortsword gives you a +1 to attacks. But a +1 shortsword of speed still only gives a +1 to your attacks, while that in conjunction with haste will give you an additional +1 (netting a +2 total).
~P
It's worth noting however that the duration is in 'apparent time'. How much time really passes in the game world, however? I'd venture that the answer is the time between you finish your actions for the round and your next round (i.e. one round), and in that duration, you get to take 1d4 rounds of actions.
So to you, the duration of a time-stop seems to be 1d4+1 rounds. To everyone else, it seems to be one round.
If we understand the spell as manipulating time to grant you 1d4+1 rounds of actions within the duration of the spell...well, let's just say that wizards should always be careful about using items that play with the parameters of powerful spells.
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Wasn't there a metamagic feat that let you do this in 3.5? How many spell levels did you have to add to that?+4. Naturally there were ways of cheesing this.
Along those lines couldn't you just limit the ring to 5th level and below? Would that solve 90% of the problems with this?
TCG, that's basically the consensus that my group has come to.
You could even split it into three levels like metamagic rods. which get exponentially more expensive.
Lesser = 1-3
Normal = 4-6
Greater= 7-9
Along those lines couldn't you just limit the ring to 5th level and below? Would that solve 90% of the problems with this?
That still allows 24h Beast Shape III, True-Strike, Shield, Paragon Surge, even Greater Invisibility, as its range is described as "Personal or touch".
True Strike and Greater Invisibility are the really funny ones. You're one spell away from having a BAB higher than that of a 20th level fighter. Cool.
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I think everyone is assuming too many worst case scenarios. Yes it a powerful iteam. Yet how many timestops is someone going to cast before the DM and/or the rest of the players ask the guy with the item to stop. Timestop is grea. Timestop is powerful and it's a boring spell to caset because it takesthe fun out of a game. I know of no players who are going to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing because a wizard spams timestop. Either the DM asks then tells the player to stop or he gets booted out of the game. As well as another posted has pointed out you can say no. Plus what is the cost of the ring or the enchantment? I dount have UE yet. Not to mention guys calm down. A few bad things in PF does not equla doom or gloom let alone power creep. THey never promised to end power creep. They said they would attempt to curb power creep.
Along those lines couldn't you just limit the ring to 5th level and below? Would that solve 90% of the problems with this?That still allows 24h Beast Shape III, True-Strike, Shield, Paragon Surge, even Greater Invisibility, as its range is described as "Personal or touch".
True Strike and Greater Invisibility are the really funny ones. You're one spell away from having a BAB higher than that of a 20th level fighter. Cool.
Greater invisibility ... 24 hours ... oh dear. Is anyone else worried about this? And I'm not even talking about combat applications. In fact, the combat applications would be the least of my concerns in some gaming groups...
In the exasperated words of Simmons, "No one should have that kind of power". *
*Warning: RvB spoiler in the link, jump to 5:01 for context.
I think everyone is assuming too many worst case scenarios. Yes it a powerful iteam. Yet how many timestops is someone going to cast before the DM and/or the rest of the players ask the guy with the item to stop. Timestop is grea. Timestop is powerful and it's a boring spell to caset because it takesthe fun out of a game. I know of no players who are going to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing because a wizard spams timestop. Either the DM asks then tells the player to stop or he gets booted out of the game. As well as another posted has pointed out you can say no. Plus what is the cost of the ring or the enchantment? I dount have UE yet. Not to mention guys calm down. A few bad things in PF does not equla doom or gloom let alone power creep. THey never promised to end power creep. They said they would attempt to curb power creep.
Normally, I'd see that as valid point. But Time Stop is not even the real problem, IMO. True Strike and Greater Invisibility are much more easily obtainable. True strike is a freaking 1st level spell! A Rogue with the Major Magic talent could have +20 to hit all the time.
A Bard vcould have permanet Blink. Or Glibness.
A Cleric could use Grace, and never again have to worry about AoO. Or the ever lovely Divine Power.
See all those grapplers? Give your self a 24h Freedom of Movement. Like Greater Inivisbility, it has a range of "Personal or Touch".
EDIT: Wait, I was wrong, True Strike would be dispelled after the 1st hit as normal. Well, I suppose I've to be satisfied with Greater Invisibility and Freedom of Movement.
Let's keep track of what doesn't work, before we all get too worked up.
- True Strike does not work: "Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action"
- Time Stop does not work: "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time"
- Invisibility does work. So does a 20000gp Ring of Invisibility.
I think everyone is assuming too many worst case scenarios. Yes it a powerful iteam. Yet how many timestops is someone going to cast before the DM and/or the rest of the players ask the guy with the item to stop. Timestop is grea. Timestop is powerful and it's a boring spell to caset because it takesthe fun out of a game. I know of no players who are going to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing because a wizard spams timestop. Either the DM asks then tells the player to stop or he gets booted out of the game. As well as another posted has pointed out you can say no. Plus what is the cost of the ring or the enchantment? I dount have UE yet. Not to mention guys calm down. A few bad things in PF does not equla doom or gloom let alone power creep. THey never promised to end power creep. They said they would attempt to curb power creep.Normally, I'd see that as valid point. But Time Stop is not even the real problem, IMO. True Strike and Greater Invisibility are much more easily obtainable. True strike is a freaking 1st level spell! A Rogue with the Major Magic talent could have +20 to hit all the time.
A Bard vcould have permanet Blink. Or Glibness.
A Cleric could use Grace, and never again have to worry about AoO. Or the ever lovely Divine Power.
See all those grapplers? Give your self a 24h Freedom of Movement. Like Greater Inivisbility, it has a range of "Personal or Touch".
True strike would not work that way. The spell says "Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus."
Even if you make the spell last for 24 hours, you still only get the bonus on your NEXT SINGLE attack roll.
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Normally, I'd see that as valid point. But Time Stop is not even the real problem, IMO. True Strike and Greater Invisibility are much more easily obtainable. True strike is a freaking 1st level spell! A Rogue with the Major Magic talent could have +20 to hit all the time.A Bard vcould have permanet Blink. Or Glibness.
A Cleric could use Grace, and never again have to worry about AoO. Or the ever lovely Divine Power.
See all those grapplers? Give your self a 24h Freedom of Movement. Like Greater Inivisbility, it has a range of "Personal or Touch".
Good point. Still it seems like some posters spend all their time therocrafting worst case scnearios. Almost on a weekly basis. For me anyway it's starting to get annoying. So the item has no restrictions? Does it have a high GP cost? I find ot hard to beleive the paizo devs would allow sonething like this to fall through the cracks. If what I'm reading is correct it needs to be errat. Still not imo a gamebreaking item in the right hands imo.
True strike would not work that way. The spell says "Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus."
Even if you make the spell last for 24 hours, you still only get the bonus on your NEXT SINGLE attack roll.
Indeed, you're right. I edited my post, but you ninja'ed the edit.
Oh, well, Greater Invisibility and Freedom of Movement will suffice. Maybe Paragon Surge too.
I don't mean to disagree with your general point, which is that there are crazy things you can do with this item, but there already is a ring of freedom of movement, for 40k gp.
But, yes, there are all sorts of crazy things this ring can let one do. I look forward to more entertaining suggestions. :-)
Yar.
Yar.
Usually, as in: every time this spell has ever been used by anyone before this ring appeared? Sorry for the gross generalization, but the 1d4+1 rounds in Time Stops duration is not clearly separate from the 1d4+1 rounds of actions in the descriptive text as is now being implied. To take that further, does that mean that Time Stop lets the caster take 1d4+1 rounds of actions per round for 1d4+1 rounds? That is what having the two not linked progresses to.
Believe me, I'm not defending the use of Time Stop with this Ring, I'm saying that as things stand at this moment, there are serious issues with the combination, as well as the fact that the ring functions on a generic clause. Thus, with every newly published spell, this rings power and versatility increases, and that is not reflected in the cost of the ring (and dare I say, should not be at all in the first place, akin to the polymorph issues of yore).
...and before anyone brings it up: Yes, a +1 shortsword gives you a +1 to attacks. But a +1 shortsword of speed still only gives a +1 to your attacks, while that in conjunction with haste will give you an additional +1 (netting a +2 total).
~P
It's worth noting however that the duration is in 'apparent time'. How much time really passes in the game world, however? I'd venture that the answer is the time between you finish your actions for the round and your next round (i.e. one round), and in that duration, you get to take 1d4 rounds of actions.
So to you, the duration of a time-stop seems to be 1d4+1 rounds. To everyone else, it seems to be one round.
If we understand the spell as manipulating time to grant you 1d4+1 rounds of actions within the duration of the spell...well, let's just say that wizards should always be careful about using items that play with the parameters of powerful spells.
You misunderstand me. To paraphrase: to me, Time Stop is not 1d4+1 round of actions per round for 1d4+1 rounds; That is what happens if you do not link the duration of 1d4+1 round with the text of "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time", which is what has been suggested as the "fix" or "proof" that Time Stop would not work.
So then, with the duration of Time Stop being 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, what happens when this ring increases the duration to 24 hours? Is that 24 hours of apparent time? Then the always rested infinite spell wizards is true.
And from reading this ring and this spell, that IS a reasonable reading of the rules at this point in time. It is, however (and in my opinion), not reasonable. Hence the FAQ request and my hoping for an errata.
And yes, as a GM, you can just say no, or have an inevitable show up, or do so many other things... but why publish something like this in the first place that apparently requires such intervention on the GM's part? That seems like a terrible design philosophy to me.
~P
Not once have I seen evidence eluding that Paizo has something wrong with a GM moderating their games. In fact, all their direct responses here and within the book encourage, if not demand, it. Seriously, I can hardly read a few paragraphs without something like 'only with GM approval' popping up.
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Greater Invisibility at 15th+ Level? Doesn't sound too bad. Most creature at that point can see invisibility anyways, or have the means to do so, either with magic or some other sense. Overall, I see some utility here, but the fact that the spell being amplified by the ring gets removed makes it not nearly as good as it seems. Gishes won't like it, clerics won't care for it. Druids might like it because they don't have many buffs they are likely to cast on themselves anyways.
Time Stop seems bad, but I can't really think of anything that would be game-breaking.
Wouldn't using time stop with this ring technically slow you down?
Time stop without the ring:
Spell duration: 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time;
Spell effect: You can perform 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.Time stop with the ring:
Spell duration: 24 hours (of apparent time?);
Spell effect: You can perform 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.Either way, you only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions. In the second case, those actions just take a full 24 hours to complete.
Yep. The Devs aren't dimbulbs you know.
Now sure 24 hour Greater Invis? Nice. But that with no other personal boosty spells up? Ok, but not over powered at that level.
Look at your high level spellcasters. How many personal boosty spells do you normally run around with? Giving them all up for just one- and at the cost of a very expensive item and a ring slot?
Ok, I can see builds where this would be great. But it's hardly gamebreaking as Davor points out.
It makes it fun to be able to run around mirror imaged 24/7.
It makes it fun to be able to run around mirror imaged 24/7.
Yes, but again, once your images are hit & gone, they are gone.
I don't have a problem with this item. It's gone through the Paizo development process, and is therefore clearly balanced and written in such a way as to be consistent with the general Paizo understanding of what the rules mean and how they should be applied. Unlike your typical 3rd party product that shows no understanding of the game mechanics, fails to follow the usual item syntax, and is horrifically overpowered.
I give this item my seal of approval and suggest that it should show up in every game.
;)
First of all Paizo admittedly make mistakes from time to time. Second, unlike the 3.5 era many of the third party producers have very high quality products, and work with our Paizo people on freelance products. I am sure that a Paizo dev would not work with a slouch. Fire Mountain Games is one example.
Wasn't there a metamagic feat that let you do this in 3.5? How many spell levels did you have to add to that?
I think it was +6, but with divine metamagic it was non-issue
I think everyone is assuming too many worst case scenarios. Yes it a powerful iteam. Yet how many timestops is someone going to cast before the DM and/or the rest of the players ask the guy with the item to stop. Timestop is grea. Timestop is powerful and it's a boring spell to caset because it takesthe fun out of a game. I know of no players who are going to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing because a wizard spams timestop. Either the DM asks then tells the player to stop or he gets booted out of the game. As well as another posted has pointed out you can say no. Plus what is the cost of the ring or the enchantment? I dount have UE yet. Not to mention guys calm down. A few bad things in PF does not equla doom or gloom let alone power creep. THey never promised to end power creep. They said they would attempt to curb power creep.
Asking your buddy to stop action X is just a sign that something is wrong, not a good reason to excuse is.
Now sure 24 hour Greater Invis? Nice. But that with no other personal boosty spells up? Ok, but not over powered at that level.
Look at your high level spellcasters. How many personal boosty spells do you normally run around with? Giving them all up for just one- and at the cost of a very expensive item and a ring slot?
Ok, I can see builds where this would be great. But it's hardly gamebreaking as Davor points out.
It doesn't limit your personal spells, you can have as many personal buffs as you want, but only the last one you cast'll be active for 24h.
So just cast the ones with longer duratiosn first.
I was reading that list of personal spells, hit Legend Lore , immediately got a headache and went to bed, gnight.
In the case of Time Stop, it entirely depends on what the ring modifies, i.e. what does "that spell remains in effect for 24 hours" mean, and how Time Stop works exactly, i.e. how long its duration is. It is probably safe to say that the "remains in effect"-clause means effect produced by the spell cast will not end after the time given by the spell, but after 24 hours. This need not mean that it only changes the 'Duration'-entry of the spell to 24 hours, because there are spells in the core rules with a 'Duration'-entry saying instantaneous but the spell text explains that it "remains in effect for x days". Given these spells do not have the appropriate range to be used with the ring, but still, the examples are there.
Therefore, the problem seems to be rather the second question, namely what variable of Time Stop defines the time it is in effect and what it effect is.
Effect:
Variant 1: Gain 1d4 + 1 rounds immediately
Variant 2: Gain 1d4 + 1 rounds for this action
Variant 3: Gain 1d4 + 1 rounds for each action
Time the spell remains in effect:
Variant 4: Instantaneous
Variant 5: 1 standard action
Variant 6: The spell's effect defines the duration
Given that the time the spell remains in effect can also be defined by its effects as given in variant 6, we have 5 different variants how the ring may interact with Time Stop.
Variant 4 seems the most realistic one as the "time the spell remains in effect" probably refers to normal time and in normal time, the spell takes up just the instant after the caster has finished casting the spell (during this instant the effect of the spell grants the caster 1d4 + 1 rounds of time). Thus, the combination with the ring would not be very advantageous for the caster as it would defeat the purpose of the spell.
The other variant that could probably work is variant 6 in combination with variant 1. This would result in the caster gaining 24 hours of time after having cast the spell as the duration of the spell is the "time the spell remains in effect" which is the effect of the spell in this case and so the ring modifies the effect of the spell indirectly and to the advantage of the caster.
I cannot see how the spell could actually imply something akin to variant 2, 3 or 5 but apparently some think it does.
I would probably decree that variant 4 is correct in my groups. I think Time Stop is just badly formulated. The duration should say "Instantaneous" and the effect should be "Gain 1d4 + 1 rounds of apparent time in which only you can act". Thus, one could not apply the Extend metamagic feat to it, but still the Empower metamagic feat.
