|
Here in Australia we can borrow audio files and audio books from the library. They are downloadable and have a time stamp that locks them from use on your computer when you're finished with them. You only get to borrow it for a few weeks then it locks out unless you renew the loan.
What's more, they only have one or two digital copies that they can loan. You can't borrow the digital media if someone else has it on loan.
I don't know how the digital lockout works, but it's pretty effective for the average user.I can forsee this becoming something of the norm in the future of sales for PDF material. Software that allows cut and paste of data, but not Copy and Paste.
You guys also have the Picture Australia service going on, and the National Library digitizes material for people for a fee and a permission to add that material to their digital collection, right? I think that is a smart service that is also beneficial for :)
As for e-books, it's the same here; you can check out only one item per title at a time. What I'm afraid of is that unless the publishers worldwide realize that we simply need better licenses with better terms, public libraries might be forced to purchase only less popular titles as e-books. And what about our role as a memory instutution, if our digital collections will not be developed according to the same principles we do with printed material?
|
|
My point on mentioning national libraries is that (hopefully) they will strive to preserve the same access to materials in a digital age and hence preserve electronic-only publications in the same way that they have physical copies. I believe that Kindle has a built-in method to allow loaning of a digital publication, but I don't know how many publishers authorise it.In Italy you should send a copy of a publication to the National library and the local depot even if it is non-registered book. A non registered books can pass unnoticed but that don't exempt you from sending a copy to the national library.
I don't...Heh, you are supposed to send six copies (of a book) here in Finland. But, as you said, there will always be print-on-demand books and other self-publications that come out under the radar, so the national collection simply cannot be "complete".
Now that we're talking about ILL... hmmm... I've never thought about interlibrary loans pertaining to digital material. We haven't had rights to contemporary books for long -- we do now, but that material is available only in English (and a few dozen in Swedish). Finnish publishers haven't been too eager to license their e-books to public libraries, but the negotiations are still ongoing. I think you cannot request an e-book as an interlibrary loan (even inside the same country), but I'll have to ask my colleagues to be sure.
That is a very good point; as I replied to Wrath, I fear that memory institutions will end up struggling to meet their goals in preserving contemporary material.
As it is, in Finland you need to donate 1-6 copies of your work (depending on the format) to the National Library. For example, six copies of a book or an issue of a magazine, a single copy of an audio book, two movie posters, and so on. I'm not completely sure how they deal with e-books, but I'm quite certain that our legislation (or the act on depositing and preservation of cultural materials from 2007) does not yet cover e-books for legal deposit. I *think* they're *hoping* that everyone who requests an ISBN for their publication would also deposit a copy in the national collection. I'm also not completely sure who can access such e-books and where (if at all).
|
|
Here you have to send a copy to 3 different repository, but each one get only 1 copy.
Even with that limitation currently the Central Library of Florence has 120 KM of shelves, with a yearly increment of approximately 1.500 meters.For digital publications of Academical papers it varies.
Commercial publishers require a paid subscription and that allow printing a copy of the periodic but not duplicating the original file (generally you read it on the publisher server and print the article that interest you).
Some scientific publishers allow the free downloading of the PDF from registered IP. Then it is the usual muddle of which we are discussing.
Other give their papers freely and don't limit availability.
It all depend on the original publisher.
Over here you send all the copies (one to six, depending on the format) to the National Library, and they will take care of delivering the extra copies to the proper repositories (for example, DVDs to the National Audiovisual Archive). Otherwise it looks pretty much the same as there; we do have ePress and PressDisplay as licensed services to customers, and you can read newspapers on microfilms in public and university libraries. However, AFAIK, you cannot access any e-books in the National Collection.
Heh, I never realized (until now) that you were a fellow librarian -- too bad you couldn't make it to the IFLA 2012 conference here in Helsinki. It would have been nice to meet you in person! :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pirated files aren't risk free. They're a favorite for those happy little munchkins who spread viruses. I think I'll take my chances with Paizo. Even if there was no risk to pirated files I prefer to pay my share...If the files are already out there, then buying from Paizo is just giving them money to take on risk, and no other benefit that piracy doesn't already provide.Then buy the PDFs, never download them, and instead use the pirate version. You've paid your share; you have your 'risk free' PDFs. Problem solved - it may even be legal depending on where you live.
There are benefits to having downloads on your paizo.com account. You can redownload your assets any number of times (handy for multiple devices of if they get deleted). You are notified when the document is updated (with errata or better bookmarks, for example), and get the new version for free.
And of course, there is the slightly more abstract benefit that Paizo gets the revenue to pay its staff and continue to make products that you (presumably) enjoy.
The retention of a copy is the bit that hasn't been fulfilled. You wouldn't be deprived of the PDF you "sold" the way you would be deprived of the ability to use the digital device you sold which contained it.
Except I didn't purchase one copy of the PDF; I purchased one copy of the PDF plus the right to create one other copy per device I own. If I were to purchase one copy of a book plus the right to make a fixed number of photocopies of that book, the disposition of those fixed number of photocopies would have no bearing on my right to sell the original book.
Being deprived of one particular copy is a meaningless distinction, since the copies are identical - there's nothing you can't do with the retained copy which you otherwise would have been able to.
Having only one retained copy of a PDF means I can't let two people at my game table read the PDF at the same time. Whether or not the copies are identical, the possession of both is clearly better than the possession of just one. The sale of the second copy would demonstrably deprive me of benefits.
... the copy of the PDF stored on that device was created with the copyright holder's permission..The copy was only made with their qualified permission - "for personal use" not for resale.
That can be true of every copy I make after the first. But Paizo is selling PDFs, not leasing them, so at least one copy of the PDF has to be delivered with no restrictions other than the normal restrictions allowed by copyright law.
If I purchase a book, and I'm told by the copyright holder that I can make photocopies of that book for my own personal use, I obviously can't sell those photocopies. Per copyright law, the copyright holder has placed restrictions on my ability to create and distribute new copies of the book. But I can certainly retain any photocopies I legally create even if I later sell the book; the copyright holder didn't make the destruction of all photocopies in the event of a sale a condition imposed upon their creation, nor can that restriction be retroactively applied to copies already created.
Pirated files aren't risk free. They're a favorite for those happy little munchkins who spread viruses. I think I'll take my chances with Paizo. Even if there was no risk to pirated files I prefer to pay my share...If the files are already out there, then buying from Paizo is just giving them money to take on risk, and no other benefit that piracy doesn't already provide.Then buy the PDFs, never download them, and instead use the pirate version. You've paid your share; you have your 'risk free' PDFs. Problem solved - it may even be legal depending on where you live.There are benefits to having downloads on your paizo.com account. You can redownload your assets any number of times (handy for multiple devices of if they get deleted). You are notified when the document is updated (with errata or better bookmarks, for example), and get the new version for free.
And of course, there is the slightly more abstract benefit that Paizo gets the revenue to pay its staff and continue to make products that you (presumably) enjoy.
This became important to me when both my harddrive crashed and the backup drive was damaged beyond repair...
got to go back and DL all the stuff I bought
Thanks
The retention of a copy is the bit that hasn't been fulfilled. You wouldn't be deprived of the PDF you "sold" the way you would be deprived of the ability to use the digital device you sold which contained it.Except I didn't purchase one copy of the PDF; I purchased one copy of the PDF plus the right to create one other copy per device I own.
No, you've been granted the right to make copies for personal use. Putting a copy on various machines constitutes personal use, but not if you then sell the item (you're no longer personally using the copy and are not able to, even in principle).
As for the rest, analogies with physical products are debatable. A photocopy of a book is different from a digital copy of a PDF. I think it's far more likely to hinge on what "personal use" means than hypothetical considerations along the lines of "what if the following situation occurred with a physical product"?
If your interpretation was correct (and as I said, even the strident advocates of right of first sale don't seem to support it - I'm willing to bet they know more about it than us) - you can buy a flash drive, put a copy on, sell it, buy another... Clearly not personal use when you look at the context not break it down to its constituent acts.
Being deprived of one particular copy is a meaningless distinction, since the copies are identical - there's nothing you can't do with the retained copy which you otherwise would have been able to.Having only one retained copy of a PDF means I can't let two people at my game table read the PDF at the same time. Whether or not the copies are identical, the possession of both is clearly better than the possession of just one. The sale of the second copy would demonstrably deprive me of benefits
Ok then by your own argument the sale of the PDF is distribution of something tangible beyond the sale of the device itself - which you're not permitted to do as the copyright holder has retained the rights of distribution.
Personally, I think it's the lack of a second device which is preventing that, not the lack of the PDF copy.
Ok then by your own argument the sale of the PDF is distribution of something tangible beyond the sale of the device itself - which you're not permitted to do as the copyright holder has retained the rights of distribution.
Except you are allowed to resell a legally-acquired, tangible, copyrighted product without the copyright holder's permission. That's what right of first sale is, and it's codified in law as an exception to a copyright holder's right to control distribution. That's the reason second-hand bookstores are legal.
Ok then by your own argument the sale of the PDF is distribution of something tangible beyond the sale of the device itself - which you're not permitted to do as the copyright holder has retained the rights of distribution.Except you are allowed to resell a legally-acquired, tangible, copyrighted product without the copyright holder's permission. That's what right of first sale is, and it's codified in law as an exception to a copyright holder's right to control distribution. That's the reason second-hand bookstores are legal.
And, as Ross Byers pointed out, you can re-download the original PDF files as many times as you want.
Meaning you would simply be profiting from the sale at no loss.
I understand the concept, but a lot of the proponents of (what is currently) illegal PDF distribution come off as simply greedy people to me.
Ok then by your own argument the sale of the PDF is distribution of something tangible beyond the sale of the device itself - which you're not permitted to do as the copyright holder has retained the rights of distribution.Except you are allowed to resell a legally-acquired, tangible, copyrighted product without the copyright holder's permission. That's what right of first sale is, and it's codified in law as an exception to a copyright holder's right to control distribution. That's the reason second-hand bookstores are legal.
Whether right of first sale applies to digital products is controversial - it hasn't been decided definitively and there are conflicting legal arguments.
What isn't disputed, as I mentioned*, is that even if it does apply, the seller must not retain access to the digital product. Thus your scenario is not allowed, irrespective of whether right of first sale applies.
* I acknowledged up thread that I'm no expert, but just an "interested amateur" and i would reiterate that here. Nonetheless, I've been looking around and I can't see anyone advocating your hypothetical as legal via right of first sale. The only people I can find supporting your position are the "IP is a myth!" crowd.
Pirated files aren't risk free. They're a favorite for those happy little munchkins who spread viruses. I think I'll take my chances with Paizo. Even if there was no risk to pirated files I prefer to pay my share...If the files are already out there, then buying from Paizo is just giving them money to take on risk, and no other benefit that piracy doesn't already provide.Then buy the PDFs, never download them, and instead use the pirate version. You've paid your share; you have your 'risk free' PDFs. Problem solved - it may even be legal depending on where you live.There are benefits to having downloads on your paizo.com account. You can redownload your assets any number of times (handy for multiple devices of if they get deleted). You are notified when the document is updated (with errata or better bookmarks, for example), and get the new version for free.
And of course, there is the slightly more abstract benefit that Paizo gets the revenue to pay its staff and continue to make products that you (presumably) enjoy.
This is one things that perturbs me about Paizo's current method of distribution, actually. Why does the purchase of a hard copy not include the PDF copy as well?
It seems that there is very little post-sell support for those that buy an actual book (at a premium price compared to the PDF, no less).
If you buy a hard copy from Paizo.com by subscription, you do get the PDF for free.
This is one things that perturbs me about Paizo's current method of distribution, actually. Why does the purchase of a hard copy not include the PDF copy as well?.
Is that something most booksellers provide?
I don't understand that expectation - a book and a PDF are different products. A PDF lets you do things a book doesn't. A book gives you options the PDF doesn't (like the right to resell it, or example :p).
You're not just buying access to the information (no doubt a significant reason as to why ebooks are generally priced differently to physical copies).
|
Why does the purchase of a hard copy not include the PDF copy as well?
Because that's the carrot to get you to sign up for a subscription, not just purchase individual volumes.
Paizo have also said that the price they charge for a PDF is pretty close to what it costs them to produce and manage them, so if they did bundle a PDF with the hard copy it would probably have to sell for more than the current stand-alone price. It's worth doing (from Paizo's standpoint) in exchange for a subscription; recurring revenue is very desirable.
Another thing is that with a PDF copy, you always get an updated version of the product, bookmarked, with interactive maps (if you subscribe to the APs or purchase a PDF version of an AP volume), and technical support (hi!). I suppose one could consider it a byproduct of the hardcover (and in a sense it is), but we try to add value to our PDF products by constantly seeking out new features we can add and how we can make the experience better (Lite PDFs, for example).
This is one things that perturbs me about Paizo's current method of distribution, actually. Why does the purchase of a hard copy not include the PDF copy as well?.Is that something most booksellers provide?
I don't understand that expectation - a book and a PDF are different products. A PDF lets you do things a book doesn't. A book gives you options the PDF doesn't (like the right to resell it, or example :p).
You're not just buying access to the information (no doubt a significant reason as to why ebooks are generally priced differently to physical copies).
Whether most booksellers provide it or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's something that would incentive a consumer doing more business with Paizo and financially supporting them. (Though I do believe that it is something that everyone should be doing as technology continues to advance). Marvel Comics, at least, has recently started providing a matching digital copy with the purchase of some of their titles. Disney include a digital copy with their Blu Rays.
However, in this specific case, most booksellers don't published $45 books that even before they're even officially released people are already finding errors in.
I can buy the next Wheel of Time book without worrying that rules issues and mistakes will basically make my physical copy of that book an out of date sunk cost before it even reaches the store.
Why shouldn't the consumer who actually pays more (considerably so) for a hard copy not also receive the benefits of integrated errata and protection in case of damage/theft?
Paizo have also said that the price they charge for a PDF is pretty close to what it costs them to produce and manage them, so if they did bundle a PDF with the hard copy it would probably have to sell for more than the current stand-alone price. It's worth doing (from Paizo's standpoint) in exchange for a subscription; recurring revenue is very desirable.
I find it quite hard to believe that Paizo is basically selling PDF's at cost.
Whether most booksellers provide it or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's something that would incentive a consumer doing more business with Paizo and financially supporting them.
Oh sure - I can see it would be a valuable offer (as joana pointed out it is, in fact, an offer that paizo make, often on top of a discount).
Maybe I misread your post. I thought you were speaking as if a free PDF was just par for the course nowadays. As I mentioned, I see them as quite different products so can't really understand it as an expectation. You and paizo are on the same page vis a vis an incentive - they're using the benefit you've identified to incentivize subscriptions.
However, in this specific case, most booksellers don't published $45 books that even before they're even officially released people are already finding errors in.
I can buy the next Wheel of Time book without worrying that rules issues and mistakes will basically make my physical copy of that book an out of date sunk cost before it even reaches the store.
I think a closer analogy would be something like a textbook, rather than a work of fiction. I suspect the same number of "errors" exist in a wheel of time book - they're just not usually as frequently referenced and studied to spot discrepancies/inconsistencies as a Rulebook.
It depends on what one expects, I guess. I see "out of dateness" as being something intrinsic to the printed medium. Paizo do make errata available for each book when they are reprinted. It may not be as convenient as it is with PDFs, but I don't think it's right to characterize it as being "unfair" to the consumer - someone (like me) who prefers printed books has to accept their limitation - they don't update as easily as PDFs.
Is the PDF that comes with a subscription also separate from the physical book and independent of the subscription service? If I lose my job next year, or find myself needing some cash around Christmas one year could I cancel my subscription and/or sell the actual physical books and still legally retain my rights to the PDF?
Is the PDF that comes with a subscription also separate from the physical book and independent of the subscription service? If I lose my job next year, or find myself needing some cash around Christmas one year could I cancel my subscription and/or sell the actual physical books and still legally retain my rights to the PDF?
The PDF that comes with your subscription is granted to your account when you are charged for the shipment of that product. This doesn't go away because it was a perk of your subscription. So, if you stop your sub, you still have access to the PDF version on your account, because it came with a product you purchased. I can't speak to the legal aspects of that, but I can say you will still have access to it.
Is the PDF that comes with a subscription also separate from the physical book and independent of the subscription service? If I lose my job next year, or find myself needing some cash around Christmas one year could I cancel my subscription and/or sell the actual physical books and still legally retain my rights to the PDF?
Interesting question. I would think yes, given my "they're different products" position. I dont know what the legal position is. Hopefully Vic (or someone) will clarify at some point.
Chief Technical Officer
|
Paizo have also said that the price they charge for a PDF is pretty close to what it costs them to produce and manage them....
I don't think we ever said that... and if somebody did, they're mistaken. The cost to create a PDF is, to some degree, a matter of accounting practices—do you figure art and editorial costs in, or consider those sunk costs for the print editions? Either approach could be "right," and would lead to very different costs. But even if we had an answer for *that*, you'd have to divide the cost over the number of units, and that's a number that constantly grows, and at different rates for different products.
In short, we don't even *try* to work out the "cost" of an individual PDF.
|
Hackers do have a motive for stealing PDFs from someone's computer and uploading them to a torrent site. It generates traffic on the website generating ad revenue and also exposing the downloader to a chance to install malware on their computer to add to a botnet army which the hackers can sell access to. So anyone who thinks there is no value in a hackers stealing media that others want to pirate is wrong.
Yes, so seriously that if your PC is hacked and files taken, Paizo punishes you and refuses to listen. Happened to a good friend of mine who did NOT give away his files. He worked tech security for Sun at home and his PC was hacked. Paizo refused to sell him anything from then on.
So make sure you never get hacked... which can still happen with the best security in place
I know that this is a zombie thread but I have to raise the WTF flag on this. If this happened to me with all the money I have spent here I would blow my top over this.
I think "I was hacked" is either a lie or misinformation. Most of the time I've seen this happen in other forms of media people will claim "hacks" whenever their information gets out without their express intent. The most common scenario si someone copying a file from a friends computer (with permission or not) and then sharing it without caring that their friend's personal info is on the file.
So say Jeff has pathfinder pdfs on his computer. Hank is over playing a game and copies the pdfs to a flashdrive because for the most part books are considered game group property. Hank then uploads a torrent when he gets home and Jeff's account is locked. Hank will then claim hackers because he didn't directly witness how his pdfs got to the internet. It is unfair to Hank, but at the same time it'd be really stupid for Paizo to forgive and forget as soon as someone claims "hackers" or "my friend did it".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This topic now has me worried. Last year I lost a thumb drive on a flight to Ontario. I was annoyed that I had lost all my reading material for the trip, and out the cost of the drive, but as there was no financial stuff or other important documents on it, I just reported the loss to the airline (in case they managed to find it- they didn't) and moved on. Now though....
Yeah the scenario I outlined is only really going to happen with someone you know or who is at an event explicitly for playing RPGs.
|
As much as I respect my Paizo account, so I don't share my PDF's, I actually completely disagree with the philosophy of punishing users whose content get found on file shares. Here are my reasons; (most of which I am certain have been brought up already)
1. Viruses, worms and other cyber trash picked up while internetting can collect and distribute PDF, MP3, MP4, JPG, JPEG and others file types especially while on public access wifi or fake public access wifi.
2. I might sell an old puter or lose an old laptop or get my cyber-deck stolen with my stored files. Many less scrupulous sites do not care what you upload to balance your cred sheet only that it is actual content.
3. I purchased every one of those PDF's, therefore that copy is mine and just like a hard copy I should be allowed to do with it as I please, it's mine after all. I traded you money, for product therefore what I do with it is none of your business.
4. Paizo should contact that user and to unlock their account the user should have to file a cease and desist order to that file sharing site and mail public notice to Paizo. This should be sufficient 'action' on behalf of the user to satisfy Paizo. After all it is that persons property that is flying around the interwebs.
If all else fails that's what moms/dads/siblings/friends, a new PO Box and a rechargeable credit card are for if you absolutely need access to the awesomeness that is most Paizo content and you were an actual victim and not just some jerk-faced mole-man giving stuff away on a file share site.
This topic now has me worried. Last year I lost a thumb drive on a flight to Ontario. I was annoyed that I had lost all my reading material for the trip, and out the cost of the drive, but as there was no financial stuff or other important documents on it, I just reported the loss to the airline (in case they managed to find it- they didn't) and moved on. Now though....
I am now considering that maybe I should report some stolen items to Paizo. We had a rash of crimes committed against us a a short while ago, with one of those probably being included with the home being broken into and among the things missing was a laptop with...you guessed it, my PF stuff on it.
Paizo hasn't come asking about my PDF's though, and I imagine that's a good sign.
One of the really odd things with that break in though, was that they didn't take everything, but they took my PF APs (so hardcopies too) in addition to the laptop (which puzzled the heck out of me as I don't think there's actually a large second hand market for APs where we were living at the time). They even took some packages with an AP in it from Amazon...Amazon replaced that one though.
However, beyond the breaking of some stuff on the PS3, they basically left that in the house. AP's over a PS3 (don't get me wrong, grateful they left the PS3 at least)...well, with the type of crime it was (probably connected more towards hatecrime than real crime probably), I suppose it could make sense if one also knew I was big into RPGs. Still was kind of odd.
Hatecrime cause they hate RPGs?...Seriously who steals books these days? I mean unless they are bound in leather or something...That's quite a story.
Hatecrime cause they hate RPGs?...Seriously who steals books these days? I mean unless they are bound in leather or something...That's quite a story.
No, the hatecrimes were not because I play RPGs, they were more in regards to me and discrimination against me and what some may term a less than typical marriage.
I have no idea why they took my RPG stuff to tell the truth, but left other things (though still grateful they didn't take more). Puzzled the heck out of me to tell the truth. However, if it was a targeting rather then normal break-in, it starts to make more sense in that light, as they were harassing rather than actual burglary.
Gonna be honest if someone installs bitcoins/dogecoin/etc software on a hacked computer they are likely too dumb to realize the value of anything.
Yes really. Most botnets have more profitable things to be doing. The vast majority of people caught hacking on mining software have been idiot college students who simply didn't care that they were frying your laptop for 2 dollars worth of bitcoin. Whereas most of the people arrested for direct involvement in botnets have been making their money by doing stuff for Eastern European mob organizations. Bitcoin is sometimes used as a laundering mechanic for them but is too traceable and too much wasted time to bother using the net for.
|
Developer
|
Yeah the scenario I outlined is only really going to happen with someone you know or who is at an event explicitly for playing RPGs.
I lost my thumb drive at PaizoCon 2012, which contained all my PDFs (literally everything Paizo's ever published, all watermarked with my name) and even some works-in-progress. None of it ever surfaced anywhere, and I imagine that because it was a gaming convention, had someone from the con found it and looked to see what was on it, they'd have returned it to me. I think it's more likely it fell out of my pocket in the parking garage or Starbucks and whoever claimed it saw that it was a 120 GB drive and now uses it to store their own massive amount to highly portable data.
|
I think the question is: what if? I thought this thread was interesting and read through a lot of the earlier bits. I carry some PDFs on a flash drive here and there too. It sounds like people were worried about being banned from products because one or more of their PDFs surfaced on a pirate/torrent/whatever site.
If someone lost their flash drive and some of those files re-surfaced, would they be banned? What if they had reported losing it before hand, would that be taken into consideration?
Genuinely curious here. The rest of the discussion is fascinating, but I'm more interested in real world application :D Let's assume that I password protected the flash drive too and it got broken into still (which isn't *that* hard). In the end, it's all my word that's what happened, so what is Paizo's response?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We consider individual circumstances. But the bottom line is that you should treat protected materials with much the same caution as you would the password to your paizo.com account.
But I don't think all of my Paizo materials will fit on the post-it note my passwords on, right in the corner of my screen.
(Kidding ;) )
Just scribble 'Please don't pirate my Pathfinder PDFs' under your passwords, should be fine.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just scribble 'Please don't pirate my Pathfinder PDFs' under your passwords, should be fine.
I am reminded of this bit from DBZ Abridged
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
