I have not been a fan of Prestige classes in general, but Loremaster really fits the concept for the wizard I am creating for a new campaign. He is a conjuration specialist (evocation and enchantment as opposition schools). It looks to me that if I take 10 levels in wizard and then 10 levels in Loremaster, I lose nothing but one “free” wizard feat ( if I take the Loremaster secret ability that gives on free feat). Hit dice, saves, BAB are all the same, plus I get slightly better skill points for the Loremaster levels. And spells per day matches the wizard progression.
The only thing I see that might possibly be a loss would be the final part of Summoner’s Charm “At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.” The part about 20th level is unclear: does that mean 20 full levels as wizard, or just attaining 20th level in any way (like 10 wizard/10 Loremaster)?
Thanks!
BB
You wouldn't automatically add spells to your spellbook, and your familiar, if you have one, would only gain health from then on.
Plus, your school powers will remain stuck at 10th level, and you will miss a couple of Wizard Bonus Feats.
You wouldn't automatically add spells to your spellbook, and your familiar, if you have one, would only gain health from then on.Plus, your school powers will remain stuck at 10th level, and you might will a couple of Wizard Bonus Feats.
Also 10 favored class bonuses.
could always go half elf for multiple favored classes or take eclectic as a human...unless you cannot favored class a prestige class.
Though as a DM i would house rule that away
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What they said.
You lose:
-Your Favored Class Bonus
-Bonus Feats (and high level Discoveries)
-Familiar Progression (if you have a Familiar)
-School Powers
-Free spells when you level
On the other hand, you gain:
-2 Skill Points per level (and some Class Skills)
-5 Secrets
-2 Bonus Languages
-Lore, Greater Lore, and True Lore
So it depends. If you're putting Favored Class into skills anyway and have a Bonded Item it's a much better deal than if you have a Familiar and are taking HP from Favored Class. Though the free Toughness Feat as a Secret helps make up for the Favored Class HP...
Personally, I think it looks worth it if it fits your concept, but that's just me.
Sorry, forgot the important caveat that we are only using core rules, so no discoveries, abilities or spells from the advanced books. And no familiars either, so bonded object is the default.
Didn’t realize that I wouldn’t get my bonus spell, I thought that was wrapped up in the “+1 level of existing class”. Looks like there is lots more to lose by going Loremaster than I had originally thought about.
What is the LSJ?
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Didn’t realize that I wouldn’t get my bonus spell, I thought that was wrapped up in the “+1 level of existing class”. Looks like there is lots more to lose by going Loremaster than I had originally thought about.
You keep your bonus spells per day. All you lose is your new spells known for going up in level (meaning you need to buy new spells for your spellbook as Wizards usually do when not leveling).
Just to clarify.
Yeah, the primary change (as others have noted) is that you have to buy more scrolls. Essentially, there is a monetary tax on Wizads with this PrC.
And since you have to take a Skill Focus you likely wouldn't take otherwise, the secret that grants a feat is really replacing that, so you give up two bonus feats in practice.
I'm going through a similar process, and leaning to staying wizard. My guy is an evocation specialist, so this comparison chart is not a perfect match, but here it is:
Wizard vs. Loremaster
5 evoc damage +5 all knowledges
2 bonus wizard feats toughness, +2 all saves
4 5th level spells (1,125 gp x 4 = 4,500 gp + 250 x 4 = 1,000)
4 6th level spells (1,650 gp x 4 = 6,600 gp + 360 x 4 = 1,440)
4 7th level spells (2,275 gp x 4 = 9,100 gp + 490 x 4 = 1,960)
4 8th level spells (3,000 gp x 4 = 12,000 gp + 640 x 4 = 2,560)
4 9th level spells (3,825 gp x 4 = 15,300 gp + 810 x 4 = 3,240)
total of 57,700 gp 20 skill points
some misc. stuff
rounds of elemental conversion aura
Clearly this isn't a perfect match, but in effect, the Loremaster is going to be a bit tougher to kill (the secret that grants toughness trumps the loss of 10 favored class hp, and I figured on taking the save boosters, since my wizard has terrible attack rolls and AC already, and enough Int that another 1st or 2nd level spell isn't a big deal). I like getting those skill points, and the Lore bonuses (especially as really the only source of knowledge in the party). But I'm throwing away nearly 60k gold over the course of 10 levels by paying for scrolls and scribing costs, and being a less effective evoker as well.
Fair note: this assumes I go to wizard 8 before switching to Loremaster (if I do); that lets me get the 8th level power and rank up the evocation bonus before I switch. Numbers are a little cheaper if you enter at character level 8; replace 2 9th level spells with 2 4th level spells for a substantial savings of 7,550; in effect, if you enter at level 8, you're giving up only about 50,000 gp to keep the same spells.
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But I'm throwing away nearly 60k gold over the course of 10 levels by paying for scrolls and scribing costs,
Huh?
By my calculations, the GP cost to get spells is as follows (assuming you take Loremaster from 9-18, it's a bit less if you 8-17):
5th: 4 x 125 gp + 4 x 250 gp = 1,500 gp
6th: 4 x 180 gp + 4 x 360 gp = 2,160 gp
7th: 4 x 245 gp + 4 x 490 gp = 2,940 gp
8th: 4 x 320 gp + 4 x 640 gp = 3,840 gp
9th: 4 x 405 gp + 4 x 810 gp = 4,860 gp
Or 15,300 GP total.
You can copy from other spellbooks, not just scrolls, after all. As is stated in the Arcane Magical Writings section of the book.
This may be different in PFS, but by the standard rules, using scrolls for this is vastly inefficient.
You keep your bonus spells per day. All you lose is your new spells known for going up in level (meaning you need to buy new spells for your spellbook as Wizards usually do when not leveling).Just to clarify.
Oops, too many terms: the bonus spell i was referring to losing was the bonus spell from the conjuration school he would get as a conjuror.
What is your build?
Getting spells will probably;y not be that much of a problem if you have to fight wizards or get around to shops often. I've always found familiars to be over rated. I just pick one for the bonus and rarely ever see them come into play, (maybe the occasional scouting).
If you want to be a lore asater be one, all this "you lose xxx" stuff seems big in theory but in actual practice will most likely NOT result in vast power loss.
Getting spells will probably;y not be that much of a problem if you have to fight wizards or get around to shops often. I've always found familiars to be over rated. I just pick one for the bonus and rarely ever see them come into play, (maybe the occasional scouting).
If you want to be a lore asater be one, all this "you lose xxx" stuff seems big in theory but in actual practice will most likely NOT result in vast power loss.
Not sure about how many wizards we will be fighting. It is a home brew campaign with a few house rules:
Core rules only: exception the traits that are found in the APG *only* are allowed
No magic shops: magic items are made by commission only and uncommon to ultra-rare.
No meta-magic items: all the rods of meta-magic don’t exist in this world.
No familiars: Bonded items only
But I'm throwing away nearly 60k gold over the course of 10 levels by paying for scrolls and scribing costs,Huh?
By my calculations, the GP cost to get spells is as follows (assuming you take Loremaster from 9-18, it's a bit less if you 8-17):
5th: 4 x 125 gp + 4 x 250 gp = 1,500 gp
6th: 4 x 180 gp + 4 x 360 gp = 2,160 gp
7th: 4 x 245 gp + 4 x 490 gp = 2,940 gp
8th: 4 x 320 gp + 4 x 640 gp = 3,840 gp
9th: 4 x 405 gp + 4 x 810 gp = 4,860 gpOr 15,300 GP total.
You can copy from other spellbooks, not just scrolls, after all. As is stated in the Arcane Magical Writings section of the book.
This may be different in PFS, but by the standard rules, using scrolls for this is vastly inefficient.
Agreed that using scrolls is inefficient. I don't recall ever seeing a standard price on "let me copy a spell from your spellbook please"; where is that coming from? In my case, it's a Kingmaker game, and given that we just were unable to find a 9th level spellcaster in all of the nearest town, I was certainly prepared to assume the worst; that I'd have to have a scroll made. Every game I've ever played, we've had to pay scroll prices to acquire spells outside of leveling up.
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Agreed that using scrolls is inefficient. I don't recall ever seeing a standard price on "let me copy a spell from your spellbook please"; where is that coming from? In my case, it's a Kingmaker game, and given that we just were unable to find a 9th level spellcaster in all of the nearest town, I was certainly prepared to assume the worst; that I'd have to have a scroll made. Every game I've ever played, we've had to pay scroll prices to acquire spells outside of leveling up.But I'm throwing away nearly 60k gold over the course of 10 levels by paying for scrolls and scribing costs,Huh?
By my calculations, the GP cost to get spells is as follows (assuming you take Loremaster from 9-18, it's a bit less if you 8-17):
5th: 4 x 125 gp + 4 x 250 gp = 1,500 gp
6th: 4 x 180 gp + 4 x 360 gp = 2,160 gp
7th: 4 x 245 gp + 4 x 490 gp = 2,940 gp
8th: 4 x 320 gp + 4 x 640 gp = 3,840 gp
9th: 4 x 405 gp + 4 x 810 gp = 4,860 gpOr 15,300 GP total.
You can copy from other spellbooks, not just scrolls, after all. As is stated in the Arcane Magical Writings section of the book.
This may be different in PFS, but by the standard rules, using scrolls for this is vastly inefficient.
You can find it on page 219 of the CRB
I wanted to reemphasize the school powers thing. If you do this, you will have only 10 wizard levels.
That means your summon spells will only be extended by 5 rounds, your Acid Darts will only do 1d6+5 damage, and your Dimensional Steps are only 150 feet per day. Additional loremaster levels will not advance these abilities further.
You can find it on page 219 of the CRB
Ah, now I see it. Funny how many times I managed to miss that. I'll definitely talk to my DM about that (and about expected availability of wizards to pick spells up from; 15,300 I can stomach, but 57,700 I couldn't.
If you talk to the DM you might be able to house-rule it that you still get 2 free spells per leveladded to your spellbook when you increase your wizard spellcasting. Not sure why pathfinder changed it from 3.5 since you still gained the spells in your spellbook, some prestige classes even increased the number of spells gained.
What is your build?
I never played 3.x and Pathfinder is new to me (i mainly played other d20 systems that didn't use the [to me] complex combat mechanics of 3.x/Pathfinder). So i am certain this is not an optimal build. Also, remember that we are only using core rules (+the basic traits from the APG in the online SRD)
Race: Elf (stat mods already applied); 20 point build; Neutral; Wizard - Conjuration Specialist )Enchantment and Evocation opposition)
S: 10
Con 12
Dex 14
Int 17
Wis 12
Chr 8
Traits: Forlorn )elven racial trait: one racial trait is required in the campaign) and Magic is Life.
Bonded item: simple silver ring
All stat level up will be to Intelligence (so eventual Intelligence of 24)
Feats:
1: Tough and Scribe Scroll (free for wizards)
3: Spell Focus - Conjuration
5: Augment Summoning and Metamagic: Silent Spell (bonus wizard feat)
7: Great Fortitude
9: improved Great Fortitude
10: Craft Wondrous Item (bonus wizard feat)
11: Improved Initiative
13: Combat Casting
15: Lightening Reflexes and Forge Ring(bonus wizard feat)
17: Improved Lightening Reflexes
19: Mounted combat [for phantasmal steeds]
20: Craft Arms and Armour(bonus wizard feat)
Same race and stats
Feats:
1: Spell Focus - Conjuration and Scribe Scroll (free for wizards)
3: Augment Summoning
5: Improved Initiative and Metamagic: Silent Spell (bonus wizard feat)
7: Combat Casting
9: Skill Focus: Knowledge ___
10: Craft Wondrous Item (bonus wizard feat)
11: Mounted combat [for phantasmal steeds]
13: Craft Arms and Armour
15: Craft Arms and Armour
17: Metamagic: Extended spell
19: Spell Mastery
Loremaster Secrets:
Secret health Toughness bonus feat
The lore of true stamina +2 bonus on Fortitude saves
Secret knowledge of avoidance +2 bonus on Reflex saves
Applicable knowledge Any one feat
Secrets of inner strength +2 bonus on Will saves