What if I cast "Hallow" on a bird house and carry that with me into an "Unhallowed" area?


Rules Questions

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Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Can I hallow an animated cabin?

If my size changes, does it effect what I can, and cannot Hallow?

What happens if the Hallowed shrine is moved by natural forces, like an earthquake or mudslide?

Can I Hallow a Portable Hole or Instant Fortress?

The description of the Hallow spell is clearly about nine pages too short. Hopefully it will get the treatment it deserves in 2nd edition. In the meantime, ask your GM.

For what it is worth, my opinion is :-

Yes
No
The spell ends
No and No

Ask me tomorrow and you might get a different answer.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@blackbloodtroll.

I understand you're being sarcastic, but again IMC...

1) No, Animated objects have a monster entry, so I'm going to say that it's no longer a valid target. You can make a portable effect ala darkskull.

2) No. It's the end target. If you're a gnome, you can hallow the bird cage, with the effects above. If you're a storm giant, you can do the same.

3) How intact is it? If it's still sevicable, then yes. If it cannot serve as a shrine any longer, then no. (Likewise, hallowing a temple and then removing a brick doesn't give you a portable hallowed brick. If you take a brick from a hallowed shrine, and set it as the cornerstone of a new shrine, it still doesn't make the new structure hallowed.

4) Yes. The inside of the portable hole will be hallowed. The fortress's hallow effect would only work inside the fortress, when it's 'up'. It's basically a magical version of the vardo above.

4a) You cannot hallow a well, unless you're a) a hot witch and b) have two hot sisters in your coven. ;-)

Grand Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:
*** spoiler omitted **

We weren't talking about them, so it's ok.

To keep this on-topic, I'm with Mr Reynolds.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Actually, Instant Fortress sounds pretty valid to me, as something that can be Hallowed.

I have reread the spell again, and still cannot see anything in the details that would indicate that the Hallow effect would not move with the structure.

Could someone care to point it out if I have missed it?

Dark Archive

The spell calls out that a structure is a possible target for the spell.

Well a boat is a structure. It moves around, but it's still a structure.

Actually, the spell I'm reading doesn't even call out that the target must be a dwelling. Furthermore, what about gods of travel? Are we saying Desna would only allow her clerics to hallow stationary places, despite wanting them to roam around the world?

Hallow doesn't call out what happens when the structure is moved, as blackbloodtroll has been saying. That doesn't make it cheese to move a hallowed structure, it just means the GM should figure out what happens (until our good developers tell us the answer).

Mergy rant:
I am SO TIRED of people calling every little thing they didn't think of or they think is SUPER POWERFUL (even if it isn't that powerful) cheese. 'Cheese' is the stupidest concept that has ever come out of this game, and people who call things out to be cheese are typically, in my opinion only, overreacting and completely wrong. Naturally there are exceptions, but can we please stop calling things cheese? It's stupid.


I would say that those goddesses of travel or other unstationary things, say a cleric of Desna or Besmara the pirate goddess could still only hallow unmoving structures and territories with a standard hallow spell.

If they wanted a mobile version, they'd have to do something like the darkskull or whatever it was called, to allow a continual, mobile effect. Can't use fluff to validate cheese; you have to pay for it.

You can make a site, building, or location hallowed. When you pick it up it's not a place anymore, it's an item. That should end the effect of the spell.

And I'll vote heartily that burning down a church makes that area promptly not hallowed anymore.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Re:animated objects above.

A ship is a Gargantuan object per the spell, so we're talking 32nd level, outside the scope of the rules. I still hold that since it has a monster entry it is not a "site, building, or structure"

Amusingly, structure seems to refer to buildings most everwhere, with the exception of the siege engines section. So I can see 'birdcage/vardo/ship' being an invalid target. *shrug* If I'm the GM, you're fine, but it will only affect the 'structure' and the interior.

I believe the original idea was to call a bird cage a 'structure' and then argue that the spell will radiate 40' from that. I do think that violates the spirit of the spell. Likewise hallow on a tent should only work if the tent is set up as it's not a 'structure' anymore than a pile of lumber is a 'building'. I don't see an issue with the spell being put 'on hold' while it's disassembled.

IMC (again) the 40' from that spot rule applies for sites (which are by their nature immobile). For 'buildings or structures' it would encompass the structure or up to 40' radius of the structure for bigger ones. So an 80 by 160 structure would need more than one casting.

So after further reading, I'll recant part of my ruling. Instant Fortress, yes (provided it's 'up' As a cube it doesn't fall under the 'site/building/structure' rule) portable hole no.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, what happens to the Hallowed shrine when a giant moves it?

it's effectively defiled and loses the enchantment.

Hence the motivation around all those stories revolving around shrines that become defiled because some idiot removes a key part of it.


I'd be perfectly happy with the OP's post and the other suggestions for mobile/portable areas.
But would only allow the area inside of the portable to be hallowed. So if you can get your scrawney Butt into that birdhouse, you're clear!


Weird- I can't find Dwelling in the spell either. ha!
guess I saw the previous guy say it and it latched into my brain.

The spell says:
Hallow makes a particular site, building, or structure a holy site.

The intent is clear, this isn't a moving object. It isn't "object touched" "person touched" "Caster" or anything else. It hsa to be cast on on a site, building, or structure.

While I appreciate blackbloodtroll's posts they are really just attempts to get a person to iron-clad nail down the spell as though there wasn't an intelligent person actually at the helm keeping things going steady.

How do you answer the questions? Simple:
Are the PC's attempting to get a spell designed to stay in one place to be a moble 40 ft radius hallow effect? If yes: then the spell doesn't work that way.

Might this work out to a double standard somehow? Probably. But in general, we have to realize that the designers want to include neat spells like this for helping out shrines and churches and even cemetaries without writing a 200 word description for the spell. They wrote their intent, and if a DM wants to vary that then they should feel free. If not- there's a 30k magical item that with a little tweaking fits the bill.

So whether or not something totes the absolute strict definition of something that could be possible (i.e. a bird house), its clear the spell was not written with that in mind. Its designed to be a stationary spell effect. Attempts by the PC's to make it freely mobile at little to no cost should be denied.

I do agree with Mergy. Things such as boats, or gypsy wagons and other things that are both mobile and structures that could or could not violate the spirit of the spell are clearly a DM call. Though I have to admit- I'm largely against the idea of letting the spell be cast on the boat if its the PC's primary location for doing things. Why? Because you are still just wire working it around to get a mobile spell effect that wasn't intended to be mobile. ("oh look, we get to Hallow our base of operations and take it with us everyhere! and when people attack us they have to get within the area of effect to do it! yay!"
Not saying I'd automatically say "no" but it'd take some thought.
(though I also like the idea mentioned that they are objects not structures- but structure isn't really defined in the rules at all so we're left with the regular definition of it- and I think a boat qualifies as a structure. at least big ones)

To me it comes down to whats going on. Are they trying to get a freebie the rules clearly didn't intend? If so, then the answer is probably "no". Not because I'm a jerk or because I'm anti-player but because they intended the spell to work a certain way and then tacked a 30k price tag on a method for it to work in other fashions. If you want the spell mobile then pay the price.

(someone also mentioned putting it on a hat slot for half price. I might allow that as a DM, but doing so would eliminate the 40 foot range and make it personal only- but thats just me)

-S

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, a Hallowed structure being completely immobile is the believed RAI, but not RAW as far as we can tell?

As stated by some above, the "derp, derp, cheese, derp" comments do nothing to help. Please refrain from making these comments.

Wanting to know one's limits within the rules, does not mean one wants to break them.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you want a portable hallow, then you need to make a little birdhouse in your soul.

Not to put too fine a point on it.


BBT:

I'd say its pretty much both IMO, but requires some adjudication on some things and whether they are "structures" or "moving objects". (such as gypsy wagons, ships, and potentially some tents).

As for the other comments.. well, it is what it is.

Wanting to know the limits of the rules is fine. Seeking to twist them into a pretzel to get what you want is another thing entirely.

-S

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, a Hallowed structure being completely immobile is the believed RAI, but not RAW as far as we can tell?

As stated by some above, the "derp, derp, cheese, derp" comments do nothing to help. Please refrain from making these comments.

Wanting to know one's limits within the rules, does not mean one wants to break them.

I agree, except for the section on siege engines, every occurance of structure in the CRB seems to equal building.

Technically, I don't see anything saying you can't make a phone booth, cast hallow on it and it radiates 40' from the phone box. Also technically, I don't see anything keeping you from making a hallowed siege tower and putting it on the road. IMC putting it on a 'structure' (building, vardo, houseboat, bird cage)only affects that structure and the interior up to 40' r Putting it on a 'site' gives you the outdoor effect, but it can't be moved. That's not RAW or RAI but RAMS.*

*

Spoiler:
Rules as Matthew Says.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed an uncivil post.


Ok lets see..*pulls up SRD*

On Hallow.

Area: 40-ft. radius emanating from the touched point

That is all it says for area..so lets get into the Area rules shall we?

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

Now, further reading hallow. Unlike Silence (which is moveable) hallow does not say it actually attaches to a building. Instead it attaches itself to an area, with the building happening to be in the center of its area. If a building in the middle of where the hallow was cast..is picked up and moved. Then the building stops being inside of the hallow area.

Nothing more, nothing less. The hallow stays where it is while the structure, building, whatever, moves. If you want a moveable hallow...talk to your DM about creating something similar to a darkskull but for hallow.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@Stafir

If others are being too liberal in their readings, I feel you're being too literal.

There is nothing to say the touched point is fixed.* If I have a seige tower (a valid target, as it is called out as a structure "Siege engines are large weapons, temporary structures, or pieces of equipment traditionally used in besieging castles or fortresses.") the spell does not say that the effect ends if I move the tower closer to the target castle. The 'touched point' is a crossbeam in the centre of the structure. The structure is the target of the spell, not the space that it happens to be in. (Now on the other side, if you make it a site, then it is linked to that site and can't be moved)

*

Spoiler:
More sarcastically, the world is always in motion. So if it truly a fixed point that means the hallow only works once a year, as the planet comes into alignment with that point, briefly.


I think its fairly clear that it attaches to whatever point you touch- whether that point is the center of the floor of the inside of a bird house or a spot in the center of the grave yard. If you attach it to the church its attached to the church.

The real issues are- does the spell stay in effect if the touched spot of a structure is mobile? While the actual literal spell mechanics seem to say so, the way the spell is worded otherwise leads folk sto believe that the spell is *intended* to be stationary. They just declined to write an extra 200 words or so into the spell- leaving it to DM discretion.

Now I also believe that by the rules, if you choose to cast it on a structure then the structure is warded. if the structure is smaller than the spell effect then yuo just get the inside of the strcuture. if its bigger, then it expands fully but only to the range of the spell. (such asting it on a huge building yields a smaller effect inside of it- but casting it on a bird house yields a very small area effected).

Do the rules support that? I'm not sure. I think it fits with the intent and theme of the spell though even if it doesn't fit the absolute strict raw. I wouldn't be willing to argue about it though.

There are some definate up in the air points for the spell though that neither the raw nor the rai address.

Can you cast it on a ship?
Can you cast it on a gypsy wagon?

Both seem to qualify and its hard to say they didn't intend for them to work that way. There's also nothing remotely rule-twisty about it.
Do they work?
No clue. Ask your DM.

Also- what happens if you put it on say- a church- and a giant moves the church? or a natural earth quake?
While I think its safe to assume the destruction of the building would result in an ending of the spell, moving the building a foot or yard or even further is really up in the air. Its completely a DM call. Nothing in the spell says "if the building moves the spell ends".

Me? personally? Barring some attempt of the PC's to try to squeak out a free mobile effect, i'd probably let the spell continue to function unless the structure was destroyed in the moving.

The spell definately has some clear points, but it also definately has alot of spots where the DM has to strap on the ole thinking cap and say "hmm thats a good question, lets see if we can figure it out" and discuss it with the group to come up with a resolution.

-S


Casting on a siege engine seems perfectly legit.

"This is the siege weapon Desna used to assault the gates of the Abyss" or some such. It's hallowed. Move the siege engine too much you disturb the site and end the effect.

Heck, hallowed could be a pile of rocks. You can pick just patch of dirt for the spell, as long as you have a GM approved reason for hallowing it.
Dig up the ground you break the hallow spell though.


Our party are playing Jade Regent just now. And we will get 9-th level soon. We have a Druid, so incense was stacked in advance for Reincarnation purposes. So, idea of dedicating Fortune Tellers Wagon as moving shrine of Desna (with portable altar buyed and installed there for morale purposes earlier in game) and hallowing it seems pretty thematically appropriate?

Liberty's Edge

Nikolay Rapirov wrote:
Our party are playing Jade Regent just now. And we will get 9-th level soon. We have a Druid, so incense was stacked in advance for Reincarnation purposes. So, idea of dedicating Fortune Tellers Wagon as moving shrine of Desna (with portable altar buyed and installed there for morale purposes earlier in game) and hallowing it seems pretty thematically appropriate?

Are you aware this thread is 10 years old? That even the employee who posted here isn't with Paizo any longer?


Nikolay Rapirov wrote:
Fortune Tellers Wagon as moving shrine of Desna (with portable altar buyed and installed there for morale purposes earlier in game) and hallowing it seems pretty thematically appropriate

Yeah, sounds like a good fit.

Grand Lodge

Sebastian wrote:
What if the birdhouse is in your soul?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhjSzjoU7OQ

SAy I'm the only bee in your "Hallowed" bonnet?


(as this is an ancient thread)
Hallow K[Good]5, with short descriptor, "[PFS Legal] Hallow(M): Designates location as holy."

reading the description is helpful. It is pretty clear it is an AoE from an instantaneous emanation as written. So YES, you can cast it on a bird house (and then produce the magical effect) with GM approval that it is an acceptable target (as clearly it is a variance from the common interpretation of the spell description). The AoE does not move with the touched object as it is an instantaneous effect.
The process of proving in your Home Game that the spell can be cast on a birdhouse or wagon and the effects of moving the original "focus" or touch point needs to be done in the game by the character testing the hypothesis. Likely at least one skill check with a DC set by the GM will have to be made successfully in the game and one Hallow cast with the associated cost. There may be repercussions from your deity as this is a divine spell.

I suspect that if a GM decided that Destroying the building would end the spell they would also conclude that if you remove the originating "focus" from the AoE then the spell effect would end. Seems a pretty reasonable interpretation of RAW.

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