Do they cancel out?
Both effects will function independently of eachother.
In the spell descriptions it says:
- Hallow - "Hallow counters but does not dispel unhallow."
- Unhallow - "Unhallow counters but does not dispel hallow."
So the overlap, in this case a 40-foot emination, would cancel out both spells?
If not does the 1-year spell option still work for both? (e.g. Bless for Hallow and Cause Fear for the Unhallow)?
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Counter/dispel only come into play while the spell is cast. In this case it's hilariously impractical.
If you happen to be watching an evil cleric in his sanctum, you could wait for him to cast a spell, and when he does you can make a Spellcraft check to identify it as unhallow. If you succeed, and you have Hallow prepared, and you have 1000 gp of rare herbs, oil and incense on you, you could immediately counter the unhallow with the hallow.
Alternately, you could smack him in the head with a bag of rare herbs, oils and incense sometime over the next 24 hours, because that is how long it takes to cast unhallow.
(If dispel were possible, you could come upon an unhallowed site and remove the effect by casting a hallow spell and then touching the focus of the original unhallow spell.)
In the spell descriptions it says:
- Hallow - "Hallow counters but does not dispel unhallow."
- Unhallow - "Unhallow counters but does not dispel hallow."
So the overlap, in this case a 40-foot emination, would cancel out both spells?
No, it won't cancel out both spells. They'll both work normally.
The lines you quote refer to two possible actions: Using one of these spells to counter the other (which can only be done as someone is casting it, before the spell comes into effect, as per the counterspelling rules), or using one of these spells to dispel the other (which can't be done, as per the quote).
I'm not sure if A Man In Black is right (other emanation spells, such as silence, can move with the object they're cast on), but in any case a birdhouse would be an odd thing to designate a holy site :)
Counter/dispel only come into play while the spell is cast. In this case it's hilariously impractical.
If you happen to be watching an evil cleric in his sanctum, you could wait for him to cast a spell, and when he does you can make a Spellcraft check to identify it as unhallow. If you succeed, and you have Hallow prepared, and you have 1000 gp of rare herbs, oil and incense on you, you could immediately counter the unhallow with the hallow.
Alternately, you could smack him in the head with a bag of rare herbs, oils and incense sometime over the next 24 hours, because that is how long it takes to cast unhallow.
You will the thread!
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...but in any case a birdhouse would be an odd thing to designate a holy site :)
The spells say "dwelling"...they do not say that it has to be a human-sized dwelling.
The birdhouse can also be used to carry one's familiar.
A dwelling (as opposed to house, building, or structure) is actually a place where something is actually living.
noun
a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.
or
a shelter (as a house) in which people live
or
one's residence or abode; a structure or apartment used as a home for a family unit
The intent of the spell is also fairly clear that its meant to be placed on a permanent structure not something portable- like a wooden box you have hanging off of your backpack or saddle.
-S
...but in any case a birdhouse would be an odd thing to designate a holy site :)
The spells say "dwelling"...they do not say that it has to be a human-sized dwelling.
The birdhouse can also be used to carry one's familiar.
I primarily meant "odd" in the sense that most deities wouldn't consider a birdhouse a particularly holy site, and might even frown upon such a designation (unless they're a bird deity, of course).
A sprite cleric cannot hallow his home because someone bigger can move it?
A human cleric cannot hallow his cabin because a stone giant can move it?
If the character in question is snagging a bird house for the purpose of hanging it from his backpack and casting Hallow on it then he's clearly just tryin to get around a specific requirement of it being a dwelling.
If a sprite casts it on his or her house, he'd be fine.
if he cast it on a sprite sized hollow object that a human has hanging on his backpack then the mere fact that its possible for said sprite to sleep in it doesn't qualify it as a dwelling.
Nor would doing so on a hollow object that a human could sleep in thats being carried around by a stone giant.
THere's also of course the difference between "The stone giant kicked my house over" and "the human picks up the diminutive "house" and carried it around to get around the way a spell is intended to work".
Of course- if one wanted to absolutely insist that it works then I'd absolutely insist that you have to get inside it to get the benefits.
"The site" is warded.
the DC to resist within "this area"
any body interred "within a hallowed site"
you can attach a spell "to the hallowed site".
While the area is normally 40 feet its limited to the site by the wording of the spell. In this case, the interior of a bird house.
The building, structure, or site is holy, not the area around it. If your site is smaller than 40 feet, so is the area protected.
-S
a Darkskull is a mobile Unhallow.
I see no reason why a PC couldn't say "I want to make one of those, but for Hallow".
No reason bad gods would be the only ones who'd want their followers to have something like that.
Only difference is that a Darkskull is permanent Wondrous Item whereas this is a casting of the spell.
Aura moderate evocation [evil]; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 60,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
This skull, carved from ebony, is wholly evil. Wherever the skull goes, the area around it is treated as though an spell had been cast with the skull as the touched point of origin. Each darkskull has a single spell effect tied to it. This spell is from the standard list given in the unhallow spell description, and it cannot be changed.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, unhallow, creator must be evil; Cost 30,000 gp
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What about a cleric casts hallow on a human sized hut and the witch then uses her witch hut grand hex on it to make it grow legs and follow the party?
You hallow/unhallow an area and an area has nothing to do with a house or shrine etc. because bird houses, shrines, tents are all objects The first sentence says buildings etc but that are only examples for an area a cleric maybe want to hallow.
The spell itself effects an area and everything that enters or leaves this area. The area itself is fixed or do you see anything in the spell description about a moveable area? Compare hallow with silence and you will see the difference.
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This obviously is a question for the GM of your game, not a message board.
IF a player in my game tried this I would:
First) Try very hard not to laugh
Second) at least giggle
Third) allow him to do so
Fourth) remove his spell casting ability
Fifth) when he complains send him to another cleric of his faith
Sixth) have the cleric this faith explain that his selfish act (possibly evil since selfishness falls in the evil realm) defiled the very nature of their deity and he has been outcast from the faith until he Atones.
Seven) allow an atonement, possibly serving as janitor to a REAL Holy Site until he learns respect for his deity and the intent of his spells.
Eight) Finally laugh my a$$ off, call him a goofy knuckle head, tell him it was a good try, and move on with the game for real.
What is the hate against a movable hallow?
I am not finding anything particular overpowering with some creative uses of this spell.
Because it is cheese, this is a prime example why GMs are in this game to begin with, the particular overpowering thing is giving casters way more leeway than is needed, if you want to check martial/caster disparity you should not allow cheese like this.
but well you are a troll so I guess it is alright..
What about a tent?
Is the core of your argument that you do not like hallow to be portable?
It has nothing to do with my like, dislike, or relative power of it- or lack thereof.
It has to do with intentionally cheesing something thats quite clearly meant to be cast on a stationary location by saying "bird house!" to make it portable.
So yeah, I'd come down on it largely in the realm of "No". This isn't using a spell creatively- its circumventing the intent of the spell to force it to do something it wasn't ever meant to do. Hallow is designed to be a stationary effect not something you have dangling off of your backpack.
Now do I care of a DM lets the PC's do it? not even slightly.
But this is the rules forum about what the rules say, not the homebrew or houserule section and as such RAW and RAI matter more than houseruling it.
As for whether or not a tent would work- it'd depend on the tent and the intent. Is this some big permanent'ish tent where someone dwells all the time or something you intend to pack up and carry with you to cheese the spell?
-S
a Darkskull is a mobile Unhallow.
I see no reason why a PC couldn't say "I want to make one of those, but for Hallow".
No reason bad gods would be the only ones who'd want their followers to have something like that.
I'd have no problem with that. Darkskull costs 30k. Assuming the Hallow version cost something similar, there'd be no issue.
-S
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What if the birdhouse is in your soul?
<giddy with laughter>
Sebastian, I think that the birdhouse which may be theorectically contained within one's soul would depend on how friendly that person was, as to whether a bird would reside there. These thoughts may help you solve your conundrum:I'm your only friend.
I'm not your only friend.
But I'm a little glowing friend.
But really I'm not actually your friend.
But I am.
On the serious side, though ... I think that I would have to agree that this is an area spell. It specifies "site" ... one that would customarily include a building/dwelling/shrine/what have you to a particular deity.
My general thought on the "intent" of the spell goes like this: How is that word most commonly used? Think of a phrase that uses that word. Chances are, a likely majority of you would come up with "on Hallowed ground". It's the place that is sacred, not any particular facade that you might find there ... but, Hallowed Ground is seldom found at a place without some edifice.
So, yeah ... I, too, would think that a deity would take umbrage to the fact that you're trying to call a birdhouse sacred to him/her in some way.
This was actually a topic on the PFS boards, presumably by the same poster (though it's not so important to me that I'd search and check). I think that lends itself to an answer. When one answer wasn't in agreement with them, they went somewhere else to try to find another answer.
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Ask your GM.
This is definitely an area that needs GM adjudication.
To be clear on how the rules work for combining magical effects, you can refer to p. 208-209 of the Core Rulebook where it states under the Spells with Opposite Effects section that some spells negate or counter each other.
Since that wording is listed under the combining magical effects section (as well as the section describing counterspells) that means that if you see that wording at the end of a spell it describes not only whether or not you can counter the effect while it is being cast, but also how the spell effects interact once they're active.
In this case, the effects don't dispel each other, but they do counter each other. In other words, if you cast a hallow spell in an area that was already under the unhallow effect, they would cancel each other out, and have normal conditions on any areas that overlap. If they don't overlap perfectly, then you could end up with an area affected by hallow on one side of a large room and an area of unhallow on the other.
Now that you know how the spells work, here are the parts that need GM adjudication:
How does the GM define a site, building, or structure?
If the said structure is smaller than the spell's 40-ft radius, is the effect limited by the boundaries of said structure?
How do the boundaries of structures work when one structure is inside of another structure? Do they maintain separate boundaries? Or is the space inter-mingled?
There are excellent arguments regarding these aspects of the spell listed in the above posts.
If I was GMing a home game, I would adjudicate it in a way that I interpret as being the most fun in the long term for that campaign.
For society play I would handle the situation like this:
- I would check the scenario for guidance, and follow any cues given by the author on how the situation should be handled.
- If there is no guidance (which is probably the case), I would say that if the scenario allows them enough time to cast the spell, they can cast the spell on the birdhouse, but the effects would be limited to the inside of the structure.
- If they take the birdhouse inside an unhallowed area, then the areas where the birdhouse and the unhallowed areas overlap (inside the birdhouse) counter each other and would not work until the birdhouse leaves the unhallowed area, in which case, the hallowed effect would work again.
- At the end of the adventure, the hallow effect would end.
As was mentioned on the PFS thread, there may be clarifications in the next release of the PFS Guide.
Please keep in mind that this is only MY interpretation of how hallow would work in a holy birdhouse. Other GMs could have their own interpretations, which would be just as valid. Also note that if the spell were being cast on a different structure I would reevaluate the effect interactions from there.
So once again... Ask your GM. :-)
Have Fun!
To be clear on how the rules work for combining magical effects, you can refer to p. 208-209 of the Core Rulebook where it states under the Spells with Opposite Effects section that some spells negate or counter each other.
Since that wording is listed under the combining magical effects section (as well as the section describing counterspells) that means that if you see that wording at the end of a spell it describes not only whether or not you can counter the effect while it is being cast, but also how the spell effects interact once they're active.
In this case, the effects don't dispel each other, but they do counter each other. In other words, if you cast a hallow spell in an area that was already under the unhallow effect, they would cancel each other out, and have normal conditions on any areas that overlap. If they don't overlap perfectly, then you could end up with an area affected by hallow on one side of a large room and an area of unhallow on the other.
Actually, negating and countering are two different things, and not simply two words for the same thing. A spell must actually say it negates another spell for it to work in that manner; saying that it counters or dispels refers only to counterspelling and dispelling. Refer to the daylight spell for instance:
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
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Seriously?
Seriously.
cats and dogs living together in perfect harmony!
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Actually, negating and countering are two different things, and not simply two words for the same thing. A spell must actually say it negates another spell for it to work in that manner; saying that it counters or dispels refers only to counterspelling and dispelling. Refer to the daylight spell for instance:
Thanks for the clarification Are. :-)
After re-re-rereading that section I understand that both effects take place independently of each each other. Your example helped.
So where I said
To be clear on how the rules work for combining magical effects, you can refer to p. 208-209 of the Core Rulebook where it states under the Spells with Opposite Effects section that some spells negate or counter each other.
Since that wording is listed under the combining magical effects section (as well as the section describing counterspells) that means that if you see that wording at the end of a spell it describes not only whether or not you can counter the effect while it is being cast, but also how the spell effects interact once they're active.
In this case, the effects don't dispel each other, but they do counter each other. In other words, if you cast a hallow spell in an area that was already under the unhallow effect, they would cancel each other out, and have normal conditions on any areas that overlap. If they don't overlap perfectly, then you could end up with an area affected by hallow on one side of a large room and an area of unhallow on the other.
I should have said:
To be clear on how the rules work for combining magical effects, you can refer to p. 208-209 of the Core Rulebook where it states under the Spells with Opposite Effects section that spells will only negate each other if it is noted in a spell’s description. Refer to the Daylight spell for an example.In this case, since the spell descriptions for hallow and unhallow don't say they negate each other, if you cast a hallow spell in an area that was already under the unhallow effect, the room will have both a hallow and an unhallow effect cast upon it.
Also, you can replace my line that says:
- If they take the birdhouse inside an unhallowed area, then the areas where the birdhouse and the unhallowed areas overlap (inside the birdhouse) counter each other and would not work until the birdhouse leaves the unhallowed area, in which case, the hallowed effect would work again.
with:
- If they take the birdhouse inside an unhallowed area, then there is now a birdhouse with a hallow effect inside of it moving through a room that has an unhallow effect. The area inside the birdhouse is now affected by both the hallow and the unhallow effect until it leaves the unhallowed area.
My humble apologies for any confusion I may have caused. :-)
I now submit myself to the overlord for requisite flagellation and reprogramming.
Besides, all I really wanted was to be in a post where Sean K Reynolds responded. I met him at Paizocon, and wanted to see if he was as cool online as he is in real life. :-) Woot!
This was actually a topic on the PFS boards, presumably by the same poster (though it's not so important to me that I'd search and check). I think that lends itself to an answer. When one answer wasn't in agreement with them, they went somewhere else to try to find another answer.
Nope, wrong assumption. I asked on the PFS boards if Hallow would extend past the end of a scenario.
So, Hallow/Unhallow cannot be moved in any way, whatsoever?
Is this the consensus?
Well, there is that magical item that is Unhallow in a nice portable ..err.. skull.
for PFS that is pretty much the ruling I would think.
Now for home games I can't see why you couldn't, for a similar expenditure of cash, do the same for Hallow using the same guidelines. (and, hopefully, not involving a skull.. maybe a nice shiny candelebra or something?)
-S
So, Hallow/Unhallow cannot be moved in any way, whatsoever?
Is this the consensus?
Well, there is that magical item that is Unhallow in a nice portable ..err.. skull.
for PFS that is pretty much the ruling I would think.
Now for home games I can't see why you couldn't, for a similar expenditure of cash, do the same for Hallow using the same guidelines. (and, hopefully, not involving a skull.. maybe a nice shiny candelebra or something?)
-S
Or a hallow that takes up a head-slot for half the cost.
So, what happens to the Hallowed shrine when a giant moves it?
Thats for the DM to adjudicate, to be honest. The rules don't expressly cover what happens when a giant comes and kicks the house 2 feet to the left or whatever.
-S
As far as hallow castability on the potential mobility of a place: I'm incliced to believe that if you hallow a church, and the tarrasque eats it, the church promptly become unhallowed.
A dwelling (as opposed to house, building, or structure) is actually a place where something is actually living.
noun
a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.or
a shelter (as a house) in which people live
or
one's residence or abode; a structure or apartment used as a home for a family unit
The intent of the spell is also fairly clear that its meant to be placed on a permanent structure not something portable- like a wooden box you have hanging off of your backpack or saddle.
-S
what about the roving gypsy band, are they not able to hallow their carts and or wagons?
what about the roving gypsy band, are they not able to hallow their carts and or wagons?A dwelling (as opposed to house, building, or structure) is actually a place where something is actually living.
noun
a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.or
a shelter (as a house) in which people live
or
one's residence or abode; a structure or apartment used as a home for a family unit
The intent of the spell is also fairly clear that its meant to be placed on a permanent structure not something portable- like a wooden box you have hanging off of your backpack or saddle.
-S
Clearly this is just imo here but:
A gypsy band is actually taking is house and home and dwelling with it wherever I goes. I'd probably allow it- unless "gypsy band" was really code for a bunch of tents the PC's stic into their backpack to try and sneak in the buff for free.
I mean, thats really the issue.
When trying to figure out "what if" ask yourself- is this legit, or is it a way for PC's to sneak this buff into their pocket? If its just an attempt to sneak in the buff, then the answer is basically "No". The intent of this spell is not to be something portable upon one's backpack.
That having been said- the typical "gypsy band" setup is a bunch of wooden covered wagons that they live in. I'd not be against it being hallowed. I think that falls under what the spell is intended to cover. I woudn't be even slightly upset if it was disallowed though- as its really a corner case that probably shouldn't be allowed. (nice flavor to it though) Of course there's nothing stopping the gypsy's from having a Hallow magical item and using it for their camp, either.
-S
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My 2 C-bills...
Yes, you can hallow a bird cage (in your soul it's optional) like others said, it affects the bird cage (and the inside).
Gypsy*/Rrom/Varsarian/Vistani Vardos and the like would be able to be hallowed but it wouldn't be a mobile affect, it would only work when camped (i.e. be a semi permanent structure) Part of that is simply that the wagons *are* their homes. I'd say the same thing for a circus or the like. The hallow on the big top only works when the tent is up.
So if the party wants to hallow their tents and then in combat take the time to set them up and everything to negate an unhallow, let them knock themselves out.
Edit: This also makes the darkskull a useful item still, as it's 'always on'. Also this might be something to consider for wagon caravans like in Jade Regent
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My 2 C-bills...
Yes, you can hallow a bird cage (in your soul it's optional) like others said, it affects the bird cage (and the inside).
Gypsy*/Rrom/Varsarian/Vistani Vardos and the like would be able to be hallowed but it wouldn't be a mobile affect, it would only work when camped (i.e. be a semi permanent structure) Part of that is simply that the wagons *are* their homes. I'd say the same thing for a circus or the like. The hallow on the big top only works when the tent is up.
So if the party wants to hallow their tents and then in combat take the time to set them up and everything to negate an unhallow, let them knock themselves out.
Edit: This also makes the darkskull a useful item still, as it's 'always on'. Also this might be something to consider for wagon caravans like in Jade Regent
*** spoiler omitted **
IMO the difference between a gypsy camp and an adventurer's camp is that the semi-permanent structures turn the average camp into home once they settle into an area for abit. The average adventurer though doesn't consider their tent home- nor is it semi-permanent.
That being said- i'd definately have a double standard in effect.
The gypsies would get their 40 foot radius (think thats the spell effect range) from whatever spot they had it cast on whereas the PC's would have to be inside their birdcage or tent to get the effect.
Why?
1) the gypsy camps are their homes and casting hallow isn't some attempt to cheese a free effect.
2) pc's usually don't consider "home" to be a tent, and letting hallow effect their campsite by casting it on a tent is just an attempt to cheese a free effect.
granted- thats just my opinion. I *think* that by raw the gypsy camps would probalby not get the effect (since they aren't permanent structures and that seems to be the intent behind the spell restriction) but I think the gypsy thing is close enough to the technical wording of it to might work.
PC tents? not so much.
-S
