Okay, so the group we have, 7 people to be exact, none wanted to be an arcane spellcaster or divine spellcaster. We do have a bard, so that is something.
Anyway, being the good teammate that I am, I decided to multiclass and go MT since we'll need as much help as possible. In this campaign, magic items are not easily attainable (purchasing wise). This is a Pathfinder campaign
Books available: Core and APG
This is what I have so far: Human Wiz 2/Cleric 2
Stats:
Str 15
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 19
Wis 18
Cha 16
Domains: Healing and Fire
Arcane: Specialize in Evocation Oppose: Divination and Enchantment
Feats: Combat Casting, Spell Focus (Evo), Spell Penteration
I do have a familiar instead of a bonded item.
I also have the Magical Knack Trait for Wizard.
So at 5th level, I am taking Craft Wand to help out with the magic issues we have.
After this, I do not know what feats I should consider. Because I am the only major caster, I need to be well-rounded, not great at any one thing but good at them all. Looking at maybe improved familiar and going the pseudo-dragon route due to him able to use scrolls and wands.
Any advice would be appreciated.
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I agree with Nicos and if those are feats uve already taken i would talk to the gm and see if u can retro the spell focus and spell pen for somthing else. As a MT you wont be really good at either until 12th level so its best to go support and thats usually in the form of battlefield control and heals/buffs when needed... With that said summon monsters are never bad, so possibly switch spell focus to conjuration and pick up augment summon over spell pen.. Ask about superior summoning from the UC as well.. The create pit spells are great battlefield control, as well as grease, web, sleet storm, slow and later black tentacles. Nice buffs include bless, bulls str, bears endurance, haste etc.. Take a look at Treantmonks guide to the "God Wizard", as he has alot of nice tips. Good luck sir
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Can you post what classes are in your party?
Its possible to be perform certain roles without needing to multi-class.
For example, certain Oracles can be played like a blaster Sorcerer, while still able to heal.
Also if the Bard is playing a typical, "Buffer" bard, then maybe you could pick a class like the Witch and be the party's Debuffer, weakening the enemies for the kill.
That said, your stats are perfect for the MT. But even with such high stats, like what Nicos have said, being a blaster or debuff spells caster as a MT is bad. You just don't have access to higher level spells compared to a solo-class caster.
I assume at level 5 you're taking another level in Wizard, as Craft Wand has a requirement of CL 5 (you will be CL5 with magical knack at 5th level only if you take wizard).
Possibly also ask your DM if you could instead just get early access to MT... He/she can do a quick browse of the forums to see that it would not be entirely unreasonable. You can't really use most of your spells (since you have the same amount of turns in combat as everybody else) - you simply get more options.
Alright we have the following for classes:
Monk/Summoner
Barbarian/Summoner
Barbarian
Swashbuckler Rogue
Archivist Bard
Ranger
The two that have taken summoner, took it at 3rd level, and decided on it way after I got suckered into this mess. LOL.
Can you post what classes are in your party?
Its possible to be perform certain roles without needing to multi-class.
For example, certain Oracles can be played like a blaster Sorcerer, while still able to heal.Also if the Bard is playing a typical, "Buffer" bard, then maybe you could pick a class like the Witch and be the party's Debuffer, weakening the enemies for the kill.
That said, your stats are perfect for the MT. But even with such high stats, like what Nicos have said, being a blaster or debuff spells caster as a MT is bad. You just don't have access to higher level spells compared to a solo-class caster.
No, there will be no retroing. This DM is tough and just out to kill the entire party. LOL. And those are the only two books allowed.
If this info helps, we are playing Second Darkness so there is a lot of SR involved.
I agree with Nicos and if those are feats uve already taken i would talk to the gm and see if u can retro the spell focus and spell pen for somthing else. As a MT you wont be really good at either until 12th level so its best to go support and thats usually in the form of battlefield control and heals/buffs when needed... With that said summon monsters are never bad, so possibly switch spell focus to conjuration and pick up augment summon over spell pen.. Ask about superior summoning from the UC as well.. The create pit spells are great battlefield control, as well as grease, web, sleet storm, slow and later black tentacles. Nice buffs include bless, bulls str, bears endurance, haste etc.. Take a look at Treantmonks guide to the "God Wizard", as he has alot of nice tips. Good luck sir
Sounds good Nicos. I do not mind this build, just didn't know exactly what it was until I really read into it.
I definitely do not mind buffing, etc. I actually kind of enjoy it to some extent.
In this campaign, we've been hit with a couple of swarms and I've been the only one to do anything with them due to my burning hands. So it hasn't been all bad. lol
If you can not change you feast there are good spells in evocation just do not focus on damage. Try to focus in things like grasping hands or
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/chain-of-perdition
Got to agree, here. You'll never be much of a blaster as an MT. Between the spell lists you've got, though, and the number of spells you have available, you can make your party plow through enemies without casting a single blast. Disable your enemies, buff your friends, and let your melee-heavy party feel useful because you made their jobs easier.
Heal them up when it's over and move on!
For a party with no full casters, MT is a good choice, but you'll be using your spells to keep the party going. Blasters are better when you've got good magical support, so a wasted blast isn't such a drain of spell slots.
As you get treasure, most of the wands and scrolls and such will automatically go to you, since you can use just about all of them. Make the party pitch in for consumables.
Oops... was looking at the Faerie Dragon for Improved Familiar. That won't be til like 9th level.
Sounds good Nicos. I do not mind this build, just didn't know exactly what it was until I really read into it.
I definitely do not mind buffing, etc. I actually kind of enjoy it to some extent.
In this campaign, we've been hit with a couple of swarms and I've been the only one to do anything with them due to my burning hands. So it hasn't been all bad. lol
If you can not change you feast there are good spells in evocation just do not focus on damage. Try to focus in things like grasping hands or
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/chain-of-perdition
Yup I figured as much highly regarded. I wasn't planning on using much blasting, but when I did, I just wanted a slightly better chance of getting through things.
Should I take another spell focus or any metamagic feats like extend spell?
Got to agree, here. You'll never be much of a blaster as an MT. Between the spell lists you've got, though, and the number of spells you have available, you can make your party plow through enemies without casting a single blast. Disable your enemies, buff your friends, and let your melee-heavy party feel useful because you made their jobs easier.
Heal them up when it's over and move on!For a party with no full casters, MT is a good choice, but you'll be using your spells to keep the party going. Blasters are better when you've got good magical support, so a wasted blast isn't such a drain of spell slots.
As you get treasure, most of the wands and scrolls and such will automatically go to you, since you can use just about all of them. Make the party pitch in for consumables.
Yes, I forgot about burning hands. Great for swarms. Magic missile is good for incorporeals, and acid arrow is good for things that have spell resistance. Some wands or scrolls of those spells should do the trick, or just dedicate some slots if you don't have them yet.
Extend spell is useful. Intensify is good for making spells like burning hands or fireball do more damage, so they stay useful at higher levels. Rather than taking spell focus, maybe get spell penetration. That way, ALL your spells get a +2 to overcome SR.
That will matter more at higher levels, but it's never a wasted feat. You'll be buffing, but also debuffing, probably.
Like nicos said, II lets you go earlier, so you can go first, or go later in the round after you see how things go. Toughness is also a boring but nice feat. Your reflex save is weak, so bumping that will help, too.
Have you checked out some of the guides?
I will say this do not take Craft Wand… You have Scribe Scroll all ready it cost the say and dose the same thing. Beside you should have more spell per day than any one. I think it over kill.
Take Craft Wondrous instead you get more bang for you buck Stat Item, Pearl of power, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Bead of Force, Chime of Opening, Cloak of Resistance, Elemental Gem, Eyes of the Eagle, Figurines of Wondrous Power, Gem of Brightness, Ioun Stones, Iron Bands of Binding, Phylactery of Positive Channeling, Robe of the Archmagi, Strand of Prayer Beads. That list is just the core stuff.
Craft Pearl of power all day long. Look at them in combo with Arcane Blast, Arcane Shield, Preferred Spell. All feat these work either spell list. Arcane blasr is untype engery that not stoped by SR or DR. Also it can crittal.
As far as any other feats Greater School Focus Evocation, Elemental Focus, Greater Elemental Focus (in for nickel mite as go all in But I would not do it) , Improved Initiative*,Toughness, Additional Traits, Arcane Blast, Arcane Shield, Arcane Strike*, Preferred Spell, Dazing Spell, Reach Spell, Skill focus Spell Craft so can make at earlier levels.
Lope hole MT +1 for every 5 caster levels!!! Max +5 but fun
Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. Not that great but fun.
The other thing you guy have bunch of odd ball caster 2 ½ summoners, Bard, and Ranger, so may be able to lighten up on the buffing and healing so you can blast if you want. I really do not know where 2 ½ summoners are going but, I am every interested?!?
Extar Trait tons of odd ball stuff out there. Birthmark,Exalted of the Society, Anatomist,Reactionary,Impressive Presence (Taldor)Genie-Caller (Qadira),Wealthy Dabbler (Taldor),Blade of Mercy (Sarenrae)*
all give wierd stuff.
This with Enforcer feat is fun.*
Enforcer (Combat)
You are skilled at causing fear in those you brutalize.
Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
I respect Tom's perspective, but as you level up, your job will be "the only real caster in the party."
To keep your melee horde going, you play support. You'll want to dispel enemy magic, and buff your fighter types. The hard part is getting to that level where you're good at it.
Screw familiars. Get a ring or amulet that you can buff for you alone, and spend treasure making yourself invisible with a ring, or armored with an amulet. Don't burn feats on familiars. They're not worth it for you. Remember that you can enchant a ring to the bejesus belt, but your familiar won't survive. With a group of meleers, you're not likely to get crowded, or lose a bonded object anytime soon. Even if you do, you still have cleric spells, as long as you can pray. I recommend a ring. Amulets don't suck, either. Anything you wield does.
As far as crafting goes, wondrous items is it. Weapons are good, too, but you get little personal benefit. Everyone can use a handy haversack or a cloak.
Oh do not get me wrong the MT in this party is main caster in this party. But some of work may be shared and should be. Also the bard should be main dispeller in that party. He will get his full caster level to add. With 2 CLW wand they two medic in the bard and ranger. He may be familiar to deliver buff or cure spell since do either list. But I do like ring since it let you craft ring for you self. I once had ring of feather fall/ sutanance/ wizardry as my bonded item. Again I am still pulzed by the 2 1/2 summoners wondering where they ar going?!?
Maybe it's just me, but why put the 15 into STR and not DEX? The DEX offers you more AC and an easier chance to his with ranged touch spells, while STR is only really good for carrying capacity.
Then again, Mystic Theurge has really come off, to me, as the class to go to if your group needs a caster that's pretty damned diverse and Mystic Theurge offers just that. If you plan on being more front-lines, I feel like there are other things you could do that might be more effective.
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In this environment, with a melee heavy party and light casting otherwise, I would go on prevent defense. Let the melee guys take out the baddies and wand up. You just prepare against things that they can't handle easily. You don't need to buff them with generic buffs, but you do need aligned weapon available. You don't need to drop a fireball, but you do need dispel magic. Look at removing conditions on your guys, resolving terrain problems, and negating special qualities from the baddies.
I am the one who "suckered" the OP into this mess! Honestly I didn't think MT would be too bad compared to the other viable option, which was playing a healer (Cleric or Oracle). The OP had just played a Cleric last campaign, so playing one again might have been pretty dull. He was thinking of playing an Evoker with Versatile Evocation, so...
Anyhow, there's little need for him to take Craft Wondrous Items since I plan on taking it next level. We aren't finding many magic items for sale, so I figure that maybe we can make some of our own. We have no easy way to buy wands, so crafting wands of Cure Light Wounds might end up being our best option for healing up between combats. The MT's 2d6 channels certainly won't cut it. Later on the Summoners can call in the Azatas, but that will be a while (especially since we're multiclassed).
Regarding scrolls vs wands, the latter are significantly cheaper, and more importantly they can be crafted 50 times faster (literally). I doubt we'll have unlimited downtime in this campaign, so that's a big consideration. There's also the fact that the faerie dragon familiar will be able to use all sor/wiz wands without making a UMD check since it casts spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer. Scrolls above CL4 would require a check as well as requiring a move action to pull out.
Having a wand jockey who can effectively double your output of spells per round seems pretty useful to me. Granted, they'll be low level spells, but those can be really useful. Against stuff without SR a CL3 wand of Scorching Ray could be like doubling your offensive output. Even just some quick low level buffs might be pretty nice.
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Might be worth leveraging that Craft Wands with UMD from appropriate other characters....the bard, maybe the rogue, unlikely the ranger. Might also be worth considering crafting wands for the ranger to use. There are quite a few good low level ranger spells that are just a "that's nice" when it's 1x/day, but which is quite noticeable when spamming from a wand.
hate to say it but the title kind of makes me cringe. It sounds like you are not playing what you want to play but what you think you have to play.
Somebody really did "have to play" a healer since the DM is rather tough and can't be counted on to throw us any bones. I think the OP has just been getting a little impatient with the rigors of being low level in a very tough game, especially since the MT takes a while to develop. This is compared to being a 15th level archer who does a lot of damage in the other game which alternates with this one.
He wanted to play a blaster mage this time around, and honestly he'll be ok at blasting since he'll only be 1 caster level behind a normal Wizard for 1d6/level stuff. Since it looks like he actually did take Spell Penetration he should be reasonably well set for beating SR too.
Sharing a few key low level wands with party members could definitely make sense as several of us are maxing out UMD, eidolons included. I think that maybe the long term plan for the MT could also involve Craft Rods. This could give him a collection of relatively inexpensive lesser metamagic rods to amp up his many low level spell slots.
A lot of the utility/buff stuff should fill in from the Cleric side without too much effort.
Yeah my original idea was to be a dwarven wizard. You never see any of those! And I was not going to necessarily be an evoker either. But after people were talking about what classes they were playing, well I thought I'd be a good teammate and do both.
I do not mind it. I just did not know exactly what I was getting into. Never quite thought about dual casting due to the complexity and details. But I am slowly getting the hang of it.
hate to say it but the title kind of makes me cringe. It sounds like you are not playing what you want to play but what you think you have to play.
Harrison, those are the stats that I rolled with 3d6+2, and we had to go down the list as is. 18 was the max a stat could be. He gave us a free 18 for a stat as well. Had to put the freebie in INT.
It does blow for range touches, because I cannot touch a blessed thing while they are in combat.
Maybe it's just me, but why put the 15 into STR and not DEX? The DEX offers you more AC and an easier chance to his with ranged touch spells, while STR is only really good for carrying capacity.
Then again, Mystic Theurge has really come off, to me, as the class to go to if your group needs a caster that's pretty damned diverse and Mystic Theurge offers just that. If you plan on being more front-lines, I feel like there are other things you could do that might be more effective.
Like my buddy said, this DM is out to destroy the party. And rightfully so. That should be the intent of all DM's. However, the magic items and healing is lacking. I am the only one that can really do anything to help prevent the party from dying off completely.
Wands are definitely where it is for long term casting. The more spells I have in wands, the more "other" spells I can prepare on both sides. I need to be as versatile as I possibly can, otherwise, like Devilkiller said, we are smoked.
Somebody really did "have to play" a healer since the DM is rather tough and can't be counted on to throw us any bones. I think the OP has just been getting a little impatient with the rigors of being low level in a very tough game, especially since the MT takes a while to develop. This is compared to being a 15th level archer who does a lot of damage in the other game which alternates with this one.
He wanted to play a blaster mage this time around, and honestly he'll be ok at blasting since he'll only be 1 caster level behind a normal Wizard for 1d6/level stuff. Since it looks like he actually did take Spell Penetration he should be reasonably well set for beating SR too.
Sharing a few key low level wands with party members could definitely make sense as several of us are maxing out UMD, eidolons included. I think that maybe the long term plan for the MT could also involve Craft Rods. This could give him a collection of relatively inexpensive lesser metamagic rods to amp up his many low level spell slots.
A lot of the utility/buff stuff should fill in from the Cleric side without too much effort.
Howie, I am starting to understand that now. At first level when I took the Spell Focus (evo) I was just like "yeah I have a ton of spells and going to blast everything". I have just realized at 3rd level, that cannot be my role. I need to protect the group and do what I can there. I will have to be limited on the damage output that I can in order to minimize the threat of the baddies for sure.
Everyone, thank you for your insight on these issues. Keep it coming please. Definitely giving me a lot of food for thought.
Okay so these are the feats I think I am taking so far:
5th: Craft Wand
7th: ???
9th: Improved Familiar (faerie dragon to use wands)
11th: ??? (Craft Rod perhaps?)
13th: ???
15th: ???
I am actually almost considering Extend and/or Intensify spell. Good, bad, indifferent?
In this environment, with a melee heavy party and light casting otherwise, I would go on prevent defense. Let the melee guys take out the baddies and wand up. You just prepare against things that they can't handle easily. You don't need to buff them with generic buffs, but you do need aligned weapon available. You don't need to drop a fireball, but you do need dispel magic. Look at removing conditions on your guys, resolving terrain problems, and negating special qualities from the baddies.
Curious, how do other people provide spells for wands? Been trying to read the crafting rules and such but I think I have missed that part.
I am an evoker that can change the elemental damage of a spell so that is some flexibility right there as well.
The wands will also be for other buff spells for the group.
The key words in this thread are "there is a lot of SR involved." No matter how big of a booming spell-tossing badass you are spell resistance is going to make around half (on average) your spells fizzle and fail. You'll still WANT spell penetration, but it is the reason I often find myself preparing my morning spell list and thinking, "nope, not even gonna bother with evocation today, just gonna go conjuration."
Conjuration may be weak, but it most often ignores SR. It also had Glitterdust AKA, "greatest spell eva."
Anyways, as for crafting wands the question is, "for what purpose?" The problem with fireball wands and lightning wands is as soon as you level and they don't, they become less useful. Sure you can blast fireball after fireball until you roll a natural 20 and it cuts through SR, but that will take time that would be better spent using your veritable horde of spells (when you actually start taking MT levels) to do thing like buff the party. That said, a wand of cure light wounds is the most effective end-of-battle healer. Higher-level cure wands, while offering less HP per GP, are still useful in a pinch.
7th level feat? Tough call. Craft feats are tasty, Extend spell is a gift that keeps on giving for a long time, not the least of which is the "hour per level" spells that become, "all day or close enough". But Greater spell penetration makes up for your caster level soak completely in terms of SR. ANd whether or not it was wise, you're an evoker, you will be trying to casts the spells what makes the peoples fall down.
If I were stuck with the choice, some dice rolling might be involved.
Also remember that an archivist bard with skills out the wazoo (like spellcraft) can take craft feats (he still has spellcasting, and other people can provide necessary spells in the crafting process).
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I am the one who "suckered" the OP into this mess! Honestly I didn't think MT would be too bad compared to the other viable option, which was playing a healer (Cleric or Oracle). The OP had just played a Cleric last campaign, so playing one again might have been pretty dull. He was thinking of playing an Evoker with Versatile Evocation, so...
Anyhow, there's little need for him to take Craft Wondrous Items since I plan on taking it next level. We aren't finding many magic items for sale, so I figure that maybe we can make some of our own. We have no easy way to buy wands, so crafting wands of Cure Light Wounds might end up being our best option for healing up between combats. The MT's 2d6 channels certainly won't cut it. Later on the Summoners can call in the Azatas, but that will be a while (especially since we're multiclassed).
Wich party member are you? Cause no one in the listed party could be as good crafter as MT just be to spell seletion. Also 2d6 Channel can cut it I player all of 3rd ed with out it and did just fine. Just have to play smart. Lastly as sone as you hit book 2 of the AP the Kingdom rules kick so you will be albe to buy stuff realy soon. We are in book 4 and in are main town we 12,000 gp limt wich mean if 1t under that amout it there. Pluss we generate about 50+ items a month as whole contry. Lasty this kingmake AP take about 15 years game time to finsh. So that like 65700 day to craft that a ton.
Regarding scrolls vs wands, the latter are significantly cheaper, and more importantly they can be crafted 50 times faster (literally). I doubt we'll have unlimited downtime in this campaign, so that's a big consideration. There's also the fact that the faerie dragon familiar will be able to use all sor/wiz wands without making a UMD check since it casts spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer. Scrolls above CL4 would require a check as well as requiring a move action to pull out.
Wand are faster but cost the same 50 scrolls cost the same as wand with came caster level. Also do realy need 50 of the same spell?
Having a wand jockey who can effectively double your output of spells per round seems pretty useful to me. Granted, they'll be low level spells, but those can be really useful. Against stuff without SR a CL3 wand of Scorching Ray could be like doubling your offensive output. Even just some quick low level buffs might be pretty nice.
The wand jockey? LOL(never herd it called that.. that funny) K back on point. If that is the case take wand but I still like wonderous item. more impoart stuff than spell spamming. I still like stat items and pearls. All though I see your point of spell jockey:) lol. to funny. But he will not be able to take the Dragon till level 9 so Craft Wonderous at level 5 and wand at level 7 then improved familair at 9t
Curious, how do other people provide spells for wands? Been trying to read the crafting rules and such but I think I have missed that part.
You have to have the spell prepared/known for Spontaneous or scroll of it for each and every day of crafting .
I am an evoker that can change the elemental damage of a spell so that is some flexibility right there as well.
This only for the spell you cast not form wands or scroll.
Okay, so a ranger cannot just have barkskin prepared and I can create a wand from that? Need to have a scroll for that?
Curious, how do other people provide spells for wands? Been trying to read the crafting rules and such but I think I have missed that part.
You have to have the spell prepared/known for Spontaneous or scroll of it for each and every day of crafting .
I am an evoker that can change the elemental damage of a spell so that is some flexibility right there as well.
This only for the spell you cast not form wands or scroll.
boring7 - Honestly we can't know how much SR there will be or how high it will be. Due to a trait he's just one caster level below normal as a Wizard and has Spell Penetration though. His chance to beat SR should be pretty average. Having a variety of wands is certainly a good idea.
Piazza2425 - You can't make wands of Ranger spells. You can make Wizard wands of spells which are on both lists and the Ranger could use them though.
I'd probably just buy or craft lesser rods of Extend Spell rather than spending a feat on it. It will probably be a while before you can blow all the low level slots on buff spells anyhow.
Here's what I'm thinking for feats based on the idea that you'll want to squeeze as much damage as possible out of your Evoker spell slots and might have some trouble finding higher level Wizard spells. Having metamagic feats is still important even if you have rods since you can only use one rod on each casting of a spell.
5th: Craft Wand
7th: Intensified Spell
9th: Improved Familiar (faerie dragon to use wands)
11th: Craft Rods
13th: Empower Spell
15th: Quicken Spell
17th: Spell Perfection
You also need 3 metamagic feats to qualify for Spell Perfection, which lets you apply one metamagic feat for free every time you cast your favorite spell.
It does blow for range touches, because I cannot touch a blessed thing while they are in combat.
That's one reason why I keep mentioning Shocking Grasp. Besides using Str and not getting the -4 for shooting into melee it gives you a +3 bonus to hit opponents who are wearing metal armor or carrying a metal weapon (most humanoids). Granted, your AC might not be the best, but get next to the Bodyguard (my PC) and he'll hook you up with a +3 AC. The increased chance to hit might be worth the danger at low levels.
Also, once you get Spectral Hand you can deliver Shocking Grasp from far away with another +2 bonus to hit. Intensified Shocking Grasp is a damage spell which bugs me when I DM, so I know it is effective!
Tom S 820 - I'm glad you like the "wand jockey" term. I've played PCs (and NPCs) with animal companions and familiar a lot since back in the 3e days. Most of them are flanking buddies or wand jockeys. Having extra actions in combat can be very useful. Some DMs will try harder than others to kill these critters, but at least a monster eating my pet is a monster who isn't eating me!
My PC is the Monk/Summoner, who actually only has 1 level of Monk. I think he'll do OK at Craft Wondrous Items as long as I keep Spellcraft maxed. The Barbarian/Summoner is considering Craft Magic Arms & Armor because she wants the Baddest Axe on the Planet. However, we're in Second Darkness, not Kingmaker, so we can't make many assumptions about downtime. I'm sure we'd both appreciate it if nobody posts any spoilers or info specific to the AP though.
Obscuring Mist does not get rid of the swarm. It'll eventually find you again. So how is Burning Hands bad if you are the only one that can hurt them?
At that moment, we did not have enough cash for splash weapons. Sometimes you use what you have and have no choice.
Yes, I forgot about burning hands. Great for swarms.No, it is not.
Let's look at the average damage of Burning Hands cast by a level-appropriate wizard versus... well, let's just do all of the Paizo-published swarms in the SRD, what the hell. Bear in mind, all of these numbers are based on a straight wizard caster. If the MT takes cleric levels before level 6, then reduce the damage dealt by the caster accordingly.
CR 1 - Average damage: 3.75
Amoeba Swarm - 9 HP
Spider Swarm - 9 HPCR 2 - Average damage: 7.5
Bat Swarm - 13 HP
Rat Swarm - 16 HP
Snake Swarm - 16 HP
Monkey Swarm - 22 HP
Cockroach Swarm - 26 HPCR 3 - Average damage: 11.275
Mosquito Swarm - 31 HP
Wasp Swarm - 31 HPCR 4 - Average damage 15
Centipede Swarm - 31 HP
Venomous Snake Swarm - 37 HP
Crab Swarm - 38 HP
Leech Swarm - 39 HPCR 5 or higher - Average damage - 18.75
Army Ant Swarm - 49 HP
Jellyfish Swarm - 54 HP, exclusively encountered underwater
Bloodhaze Mosquito Swarm - 71 HP
Rot Grub Swarm - 85 HP
Hellwasp Swarm - 90 HP, fire resist 10
Tick Swarm - 120 HP, Burning Hands can be used to remove ticks from alliesBurning Hands does less than 50% damage on average to nearly every swarm in the game; and that's if the swarm doesn't succeed on their Reflex save. In all cases, even max damage won't one-shot a swarm. It's a terrible spell compared to effects that would entirely negate a swarm, such as Obscuring Mist. There is no good reason to take Burning Hands to fight a swarm.
My philosophy regarding the 3.5 prestige classes that require multiclassing caster classes:
1. Use the 3.5 Practiced Spellcaster feat.
2. Specifically design the character to not care about SR.
Option 1 is the best one if your GM is willing to use 3.5 bandaid mechanics. You'll need to take it twice (once for wizard, once for cleric). It's definitely not too powerful.
Option 2 is much trickier but still doable. You simply pick all the No SR spells and focus on those. No SR spells typically include buffs and a lot of conjuration spells. Don't even attempt to take Spell Penetration and/or beat SR. Since both classes have access to the Summon Monster spells, focusing on those can be pretty strong for the MT build.
Um meabolex, this is Pathfinder not 3.5.
My philosophy regarding the 3.5 prestige classes that require multiclassing caster classes:
1. Use the 3.5 Practiced Spellcaster feat.
2. Specifically design the character to not care about SR.
Option 1 is the best one if your GM is willing to use 3.5 bandaid mechanics. You'll need to take it twice (once for wizard, once for cleric). It's definitely not too powerful.
Option 2 is much trickier but still doable. You simply pick all the No SR spells and focus on those. No SR spells typically include buffs and a lot of conjuration spells. Don't even attempt to take Spell Penetration and/or beat SR. Since both classes have access to the Summon Monster spells, focusing on those can be pretty strong for the MT build.
Um meabolex, this is Pathfinder not 3.5.
Which is why he stated 'if your GM is willing to use 3.5 bandaid mechanics.' in the first place.
Um meabolex, this is Pathfinder not 3.5.
*shrug* Then use option 2.
Like my buddy said, this DM is out to destroy the party. And rightfully so. That should be the intent of all DM's.I've never been out to destroy my parties. A large number of my NPC's however have had intentions to harm or destroy their characters. The distinction is important.
~laughter~
Thanks for the advice meabolex! =)
Definitely will take it into consideration.
Um meabolex, this is Pathfinder not 3.5.*shrug* Then use option 2.
Well just to give you an idea, we have had 3 PC deaths in 4 levels. They have not been stupid mistakes either.
This DM is taking no prisoners.
Like my buddy said, this DM is out to destroy the party. And rightfully so. That should be the intent of all DM's.I've never been out to destroy my parties. A large number of my NPC's however have had intentions to harm or destroy their characters. The distinction is important.
Plenty of good advice so far, I'd just like to mention that the best use I've found for a MT is as a diviner. Focusing on divination and buffs can give the party a lot of options- especially if you have 6 other players to pick up the slack in damage.
This really seems to be the consensus on the MT. Because my groups does have a decent amount of damage output, to do more things like buff, debuff, and CC is where I should go since we are lacking in that department.
I may just go that route, and sprinkle in an offensive spell here and there, just not concentrate in it.
I think I am understanding what you guys are saying, and as I am looking at/reading the books more.
Thanks for all the help everyone. Keep it up if you feel like it, as I am still unsure of all of my feat selections.
Plenty of good advice so far, I'd just like to mention that the best use I've found for a MT is as a diviner. Focusing on divination and buffs can give the party a lot of options- especially if you have 6 other players to pick up the slack in damage.
What's with the "rain on your parade" attitude A Man in Black?
This thread is to help me understand the MT prestige class, which many have definitely increased my knowledge of how to play such a mix class.
I thank you for your information and definitely did let me think about spell selection.
P.S. Another poster said "great for swarms", not I.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Obscuring Mist does not get rid of the swarm. It'll eventually find you again. So how is Burning Hands bad if you are the only one that can hurt them?Yeah, it's still pretty bad, since you need a bunch of casts of it to accomplish anything.
I also like the walkback from "great for swarms" to claiming it's okay if you don't have any alternatives.
I don't see why folks are so worried about SR in particular. He has a trait for +2 CL as a Wizard, so he'll only be 1 level behind in CL. That's only a 5% difference on the chance to succeed at the SR check, and he has Spell Penetration. If the enemy's SR is too high I guess that's why we've got Barbarians and maybe the MT could fall back on healing and buffing.
Man in Black - When nobody else could hurt swarms Burning Hands was useful because it was about all we had available. Recently we got a little gold and stocked up on stuff like acid, alchemist's fire, and oil. Now Burning Hands can help the party work together to kill swarms faster. If Obscuring Mist is really uber against swarms please tell us how though since he can memorize it as a Cleric.
Anyhow, the "How good is Burning Hands vs swarms" thing is really a little off topic compared to how to make MT more effective. I'm trying to pitch in and give my party member the best advice I can. Unfortunately I think it mostly boils down to patience though. The MT can obviously take a while to get going. I played in a party with an 18th level MT once though, and it was pretty impressive. If anybody has some advice on ways to boost short term effectiveness that would be cool. I was telling him maybe he could scribe more scrolls so he wouldn't run out of spells after a single fight (which just happened last game).