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TWO characters with reach weapons.
We've been working on some characters in preparation for the new incarnation of Rise of the Runelords, and two members of our party are planning on running a couple of identical Lore Wardens (identical twins, actually, one male, one female), both of whom have taken a 1 level splash into Urban Barbarian (intended to represent a special combat school). Both wield Fauchards and I have to say, the results of some early combat scenarios have been very, very impressive.
Being able to make attacks while avoiding AoO's from creatures with reach is nice, being able to subject foes to double AoO's when they close to melee range is even nicer... but both characters take Lunge AND the Whirlwind Attack feat line, making them a literal buzzsaw for foes, whether its hordes of mooks or one BBEG.
Looks like the rest of the party is going to be an Archivist Bard and a Master Summoner, so buffs won't be a problem either. Has anyone ever had two reach weapon wielders in their party at once? How did that work out? Any unforseen problems?
A wizard?
Love me some reach weapons.
A wizard?
Not levels 1-12 in my opinion.
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identical twins, actually, one male, one female
[Pedant mode]
Absent some weird magic, you DO realize that identical twins have to be the same gender, right?Admittedly there are some VERY rare exceptions to that. But, absent modern day genetic testing, I think that everybody would just assume that twins of different gender are fraternal twins and not identical twins
[/Pedant mode]
As to your two characters with reach weapons, they'd better have some means of also threatening the square adjacent to them. Otherwise the obvious tactic is to just run up to them. Sure, they can counter that by taking a 5ft step backwards but that means that they are NOT holding the line and might get the squishies irked :-)
And there are all the usual problems of having a lower AC (no shield)
identical twins, actually, one male, one female[Pedant mode]
Absent some weird magic, you DO realize that identical twins have to be the same gender, right?Admittedly there are some VERY rare exceptions to that. But, absent modern day genetic testing, I think that everybody would just assume that twins of different gender are fraternal twins and not identical twins
[/Pedant mode]As to your two characters with reach weapons, they'd better have some means of also threatening the square adjacent to them. Otherwise the obvious tactic is to just run up to them. Sure, they can counter that by taking a 5ft step backwards but that means that they are NOT holding the line and might get the squishies irked :-)
And there are all the usual problems of having a lower AC (no shield)
Heh - how about 'identical builds, fraternal twins'?
Yeah, they each wear a spiked gauntlet - well, really a sort of bladed sleeve worn strapped from shoulder to forearm, but statistically identical to a spiked gauntlet. More to the point, not many foes make it past the multiple AoO's to get within range, and they usually stagger themselves just in case.
AC hasn't been a huge issue - they get full benefit of their higher Dexterity scores, get Dodge as part of their WWA line, make liberal use of Combat Expertise (both took the Threatening Defender trait) and have buffs coming out the wazoo from their Bard and Summoner comrades.
Also, I have to say that the 1 level dip of Urban Barbarian combined with an Extra Rage feat really compliments a Lore Warden reach build.
@ Story Archer
I prefer the cestus when I can use it. P/B, better crit range, same damage. At low levels, makes a good back up for sword wielders when encountering skeletons or other things with DR/bludgeoning or piercing.
Thats probably a better description of what they have now that I look at it. We'll probably go with the cestus.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Redwidow do Pathfinder characters understand genetics? :-)
More seriously, if one is a blond haired blue eyed female, and the other is a blond haired blue eyed female of the same general height and build, I could see them being called identical. Don't forget the Olsen twins are fraternal twins as well.
Heck, look at the Mowry sisters' photos in the wikipedia entries. And they are identical twins.
(aside, I just found out that the 'celebrity twins' I grew up with, the Sagals, are the younger sisters of Katy Sagal.)
Edit: Plus don't forget that this is a game world where characters can interbreed with life from other planets and planes. :-)
If you want to give your pc's a challenge, build a character to beat them, then back it off a bit. With the ARG and so many spells, abilities, weapons and feats; and the advantage of knowing your PC's, you should be able to put some mooks into the adventure you're running that will give them a run and the unexpected. Build something that the twin's have difficulty and the rest of the party can dispatch. GL!
It's also important to remember that you can't make attacks of opportunity against creatures with cover. So once one creature runs at you, taking an AoO, others can run up behind him to a point adjacent to the PC without provoking one since he'll have cover from his ally along the way. A swarm of bad guys can be tough to deal with.
A character with a reach weapon AND natural reach.
Made an ogre longspearman once, very strong.
It's also important to remember that you can't make attacks of opportunity against creatures with cover. So once one creature runs at you, taking an AoO, others can run up behind him to a point adjacent to the PC without provoking one since he'll have cover from his ally along the way. A swarm of bad guys can be tough to deal with.
I agree that they can - but double Whirlwind Attack can whittle them down pretty quickly, especially at lower levels.
We're really debating the other two spots. Right now its between a Master Summoner (who REALLY wants to play a Master Summoner) and then either an Archivist Bard (who would be our only source of healing) or an Evocation Wizard to stand behind our reach-wielders and blast away. The party is clearly lacking in ranged damage, though the Summoner could certainly call flying creatures to help out with that, but with no bard they'll be hurting for a face AND for healing... I'm not sure how big a deal charisma-based skills will be in Runelords.
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Keep in mind that a reach weapon needs room to be effective, and two of them need a LOT. There are always going to be places where that reach weapon is more hindrance than help. If your party doesn't have a reliable source of healing, and has a pair of 'one-trick ponies' for melee...you may well regret it before 12th level. Yes, I know; it's better to kill stuff than heal in combat...but monsters get crits too, and if you CAN'T heal in combat, and aren't as effective up close and personal, you'll likely regret it.
Yep, I've added some houserules on weapons and penalties. Mediums in tight spaces are on -2, lights on zip, large stuff on -4. Prevents the greatsword in a narrow tunnel b&##!*%s.
For using the reach in close, there is short haft.
Keep in mind that a reach weapon needs room to be effective, and two of them need a LOT. There are always going to be places where that reach weapon is more hindrance than help. If your party doesn't have a reliable source of healing, and has a pair of 'one-trick ponies' for melee...you may well regret it before 12th level. Yes, I know; it's better to kill stuff than heal in combat...but monsters get crits too, and if you CAN'T heal in combat, and aren't as effective up close and personal, you'll likely regret it.
That's not necessarily true - reach weapons were used in tight formations throughout most of military history - they are actually more effective in tight quarters than not... its not as if you have to swing away with one to be effective.