Hello. It currently uses Wisdom only. Here's the comment from Creative Director James Jacobs about it using Wisdom only, and that changing it to Charisma would be a houserule not legal for PFS:
My oracle shed a tear over this.
|
Not every wizard spell works well for sorcerers. It's appropriate that the same thing may come up with cleric spells as well.
But that doesn't have to do with the spell itself, more the mechanics of the sorcerer vs wizard. There are spells that are better for the wizard than the sorcerer because they are situational spells. I can't think of a Wizard/Sorcerer spell that calls out int and not char.
Heretical scum such as Oracles don't worship a deity so I don't see why a deity should bother listening to their pleas.
The oracle in my home game is a Shoanti tribesman with the ancestors mystery. His spiritual weapon is fluffed as actually summoning the spirit of one of his ancestors to fight on his behalf.
|
|
Heretical scum such as Oracles don't worship a deity so I don't see why a deity should bother listening to their pleas.The oracle in my home game is a Shoanti tribesman with the ancestors mystery. His spiritual weapon is fluffed as actually summoning the spirit of one of his ancestors to fight on his behalf.
. . . But doesn't have the Jedi traing to use it properly. :)
|
Not every wizard spell works well for sorcerers. It's appropriate that the same thing may come up with cleric spells as well.But that doesn't have to do with the spell itself, more the mechanics of the sorcerer vs wizard. There are spells that are better for the wizard than the sorcerer because they are situational spells. I can't think of a Wizard/Sorcerer spell that calls out int and not char.
How about Charm Person/Monster line, any spell that requires a Charisma Check within its description certainly does the reverse favoring all but the oddest sorcerers over wizards.
Developer
|
| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 40 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good afternoon,
This question is one I’ve considered for some time, and following my discussions with Mike Brock and Sean K Reynolds about a FAQ post earlier this year, I’ve made a decision. A character who receives spiritual weapon and/or spiritual ally as a bonus spell (such as an oracle mystery spell or witch patron spell) may use her primary spellcasting ability score in place of her Wisdom score when calculating the spell’s attack bonus. In this way a select set of characters that would otherwise have no choice but to learn the spell (e.g. spirits patron witches, ancestors mystery oracles, and sacred servant paladins with the war domain) can still make effective use of a character feature.
This ruling only applies to the two spells mentioned above and does not modify any other spells that may have similar circumstances. This ruling does not alter how the above spells function for characters who do not receive those spells as bonus spells.
This is a clarification that we are using for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We plan on updating this in future update of the Pathfinder Society FAQ.
|
To clarify then, an oracle who chooses spiritual weapon or ally as a spell known must use his or her wisdom modifier, but an oracle that learns it from the mystery class feature can use his or her charisma modifier instead?
While I do like the direction you are taking with this decision, I worry that there is now more room for confusion than there was before.
|
Developer
|
To clarify then, an oracle who chooses spiritual weapon or ally as a spell known must use his or her wisdom modifier, but an oracle that learns it from the mystery class feature can use his or her charisma modifier instead?
This is the case. The intention is not to create a blanket rule of "spiritual ally uses whatever stat you want." Rather, it's to allow select characters make use of class features that they had no direct choice over. Otherwise an ancestors mystery oracle has "wasted" her 2nd- and 4th-level bonus spells.
Although I can see where it may create some confusion, I think this is a good compromise for oracles like the ancestors mystery.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
John: As a player who has went to the rules forum first for a clarification before, I can say that it isn't exactly an ideal solution. A substantial number of posters will bring up houserules or third-party publishers, neither of which are relevant for PFS. More importantly, my question wasn't answered definitively and has sat at 40+ FAQ requests for about a month now.
This isn't as much a problem in normal Pathfinder play, as the GM can make a ruling and go with it without having to be concerned about table variation. However, given that PFS is a RAW campaign that tries to minimize rules differences between tables, I feel that our GMs require something a bit more effective than the act of shouting into the void that posting in the Rules forum feels like. Therefore, I would ask either that there be some sort of more effective way to get official rulings there or a way to get an off-the cuff, non-binding opinion to guide PFS GMs.
|
Developer
|
Valid points, Netopalis.
The ruling's request at the end of that post is more to direct forum-goers to go through the proper channels whenever possible. It's also to avoid turning this thread into a request that I also look at X, Y, or Z; those should be their own threads.
Mike and I prefer to minimize the times that we give 100% official answers to non-PFS rules questions because that's the domain of the design team. One of the trends you'll see with most of the rules updates I've provided over the past month is that the relevant hardcover's FAQ notes the answer is open to house rules; I'm just providing the information that people can use as RAW as an extension of this invitation for house rules.
I'm often open to providing off-the-cuff answers to rules-related questions, but I like to be able to discuss those in the interest of developing a more long term solution—as you note, the earlier remarks would be non-binding.
That said, a more in-depth discussion about what might be done to improve how players seek clarifications and related ideas would be better included in a thread dedicated to that topic.
|
|
Not wanting to errata the Core book seems like a cop-out. Why can't the designers errara the Oracle class itself? "Whenever an Oracle spell makes reference to the 'Cleric's wisdom modifier', instead use the oracle's charisma modifier."
Or just change all references in the core rules from specifying a modifier to referencing the caster's primary casting stat. It just seems like it can be done without having to refer outside the core book.
|
Developer
|
Not wanting to errata the Core book seems like a cop-out. Why can't the designers errara the Oracle class itself? "Whenever an Oracle spell makes reference to the 'Cleric's wisdom modifier', instead use the oracle's charisma modifier."
Or just change all references in the core rules from specifying a modifier to referencing the caster's primary casting stat. It just seems like it can be done without having to refer outside the core book.
What you ask is probably something better asked of the rules designers, then. I am primarily interpreting the FAQ posts for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and I trust the design team to make rulings, decisions, and mechanics for the game system as a whole.
Very good compromise John.
I'm glad this ruling was made for PFS to counteract the "house-rule" type of FAQ that was issued on this question. Thanks, John.
...And now I have more oracles I want to make...
|
Developer
|
would this also apply to Rage Prophets who choose spiritual weapon as one of their Mystery spells?
I'm on the fence about this one. On one hand it's a bonus spell that the oracle cannot later retrain. On the other hand, it's one spell option out of fourteen options. The above ruling is primarily aimed to protect those who have no choice about spell they gain.
..And now I have more oracles I want to make...
How is this different from every day?
I feel sorry I couldn't do more for his other dozen oracles. Have at it, Yiroep.
Yiroep:Oracles::
John: BardsNot a bad thing.
You have no idea what can of worms you unleashed down here by making the Lunar Mystery from Blood of the Moon legal. I don't think Paizo has ever made a faster sale than Yiroep's copy.
I feel sorry I couldn't do more for his other dozen oracles. Have at it, Yiroep.
No, no. This is amazing news and a welcome change (for me at least). I actually once pondered a 20 wisdom 12 charisma oracle that was spiritual weapon spec rather than make a cleric. Can you imagine the absurdity? (Aside: I almost did it, too...)
You have no idea what can of worms you unleashed down here by making the Lunar Mystery from Blood of the Moon legal. I don't think Paizo has ever made a faster sale than Yiroep's copy.
Yes, yes, I know I couldn't stop talking about it for days, but that's because the Lunar Mystery is full of awesome. Unfortunately, I'm almost out of unique curses to give my oracles and I'll have to cycle them.
But...this isn't a bad thing! Wolfscarred is very flavorful for the Lunar mystery! Right? That's why I'm making another oracle, right?
|
Aside from the ability score dependance, does anyone know if there are ways to affect the attack bonus for rolls for spiritual weapons?
I know true strike, for example, gives a bonus to 'the next attack roll' and would therefore affect spiritual weapon.
But what about other stuff? Can you take weapon focus: spiritual weapon? What about bless etc?
|
|
According to this I don't see why Flagbearer or Divine Favor (might not apply to damage, but should apply to the attack roll at least, depending on interpretation, I think it means more like the fireball example in the faq linked rather than not applying to weapon like spells) would not apply:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rul ebook#v5748eaic9oag
|
|
Thanks for making that a link DesolateHarmony
As for your feats not affecting the weapon, does that mean someone else with flagbearer would work but not if the caster is using the feat. That seems kinda silly. Again I think that is mainly to clarify that things like Weapon Focus, Improved Critical ect do not apply to the spiritual weapon.
|
|
Hi John,
Can I ask whether or not this ruling would also apply to Telekinesis granted to Oracles with the Haunted Curse at level 10?
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
This ruling only applies to the two spells mentioned above and does not modify any other spells that may have similar circumstances.
I'd say for the moment that you're out of luck, but at least now John and Mike are aware of this issue, and may address it again in the future.
|
However, you should be able to get the +1 to attack rolls that Haste gives you.
One could also argue that, based on the wording of Haste, if they had a Spiritual Weapon spell going on a round they made a full attack action that they could make the one extra attack they get from Haste with the Spiritual Weapon rather than as part of their regular full attack.
|
|
This leads to situations where an Ancestor oracle with Spiritual Weapon uses their CHA modifier, whereas another oracle with Spiritual Weapon uses their WIS modifier. I find it difficult to think of an in-universe justification for this.
Makes sense to me. Just like a Specialist Wizard is better at using their chosen school than a Universalist.
Hopefully this decision will be included in the Campaign Clarifications document. It's still a work in progress, so it may not be updated entirely for some time.
|
|
This leads to situations where an Ancestor oracle with Spiritual Weapon uses their CHA modifier, whereas another oracle with Spiritual Weapon uses their WIS modifier. I find it difficult to think of an in-universe justification for this.Makes sense to me. Just like a Specialist Wizard is better at using their chosen school than a Universalist.
Hopefully this decision will be included in the Campaign Clarifications document. It's still a work in progress, so it may not be updated entirely for some time.
I don't have the post on hand but I saw a post somewhere that said they intended to update it when they update the Additional Resources doc.