So, last session, my players ran into a random encounter - a werewolf.
So after seeing the number on the chart, I flipped the Bestiary to the Lycanthrope entry, scanned over its stats (in hybrid form), and started the encounter.
It wasn't but a few rounds into the encounter that I realized just how terrible that entry is.
Real quick, check the human form. CR 2, though it is a 2nd level fighter, but that's okay - it does have a few things that are buffed from being a werewolf. Overall, doesn't seem that bad.
Now let's look at the hybrid form.
First, gear. Okay, it is using a longsword and a bite attack; that's not at all what I think when I think werewolf. I think of clawing and biting, but it doesn't even get a claw attack. Also, it has a crossbow. What? Who has ever envisioned a werewolf using a crossbow? If you try to make the argument that the hybrid form is the human form shifted and to just use what makes sense, then why the heck isn't it listed under a "Gear" section, instead of attacks? Finally, it is wearing chainmail. Nice.
Let's move on. DR 10/silver. This was actually something I altered mid-game when I realized it - I cut it down to 5. I think out of my party, if they all hit, they averaged around 6 damage per hit. Only 1 of them had a way of bypassing the DR, and that's because she was having to use blast spells. Regardless, according to d20pfsrd.com's Monster DB, only the Doru, Lantern Archon, and the lycanthropic enemies have DR 10 at CR 2 - all others are 5.
Thing is, there is no listed CR change from the human form to the hybrid form. So this DR 10/silver, the increased stats, new bite attack (which has trip and curse of lycanthropy tied to it), and the +5 to its AC (a whopping 22 at "CR 2") apparently yield no CR change? I felt bad for throwing it at my party, and I gave them extra experience after it.
Anyone know of a better werewolf stat block, maybe one that's more fitting to a bit more common concept?
werewolves are bad ass that is the whole point. they aren't mindless animals like in the howling, in the hybrid form they get the best of both world. I know what you are saying though I had to run my party into a bunch of werewolves and they got destroyed at first but after that they invested in some silver. what is the level of your party and the classes?
Yeah if you base your fluff of werewolves on monster movies and folklore I totally get what you are saying with the claw attack. However the hybrid werewolf that is in the bestiary is very consistent in flavor to what the werewolf has been throughout d&d history.
The DR I can see why you adjusted for that party.
what is your party made up of? and what level.
Three of us at level 2, Kingmaker campaign.
EDIT: Fixed some errors.
EDIT 2: Additional information; party consists of a Rogue, Spell-less ranger (Open Design), and Shaman (Kobold Quarterly, also Open Design). We're using a 25 point buy and each got a bonus feat and a 3rd trait as a handicap for being short one player.
My ranger has/had an 18 Dex/composite longbow (str rating +2), point blank, and had to roll a 15 or higher to hit and had to roll 7 or higher on a d8 of damage to do even one point of damage to it (all of this per RAW; later it was ruled that I could add my Favored Enemy: human to that attack and damage). Rapid shot was out of the question.
I'm all for tough monsters, but this one is ridiculous as a CR 2.
Werewolves not having claw attacks has always bothered me. It happens because they have a template that simply copies the attacks of the base creature... and wolves don't have claw attacks.
As for why he was using a sword and had DR 10/silver, that was because it was a natural werewolf. Naturals have full DR and generally retain their intelligence. If you wanted a feral/infected werewolf he would only have DR 5/silver and wouldn't have a sword.
The problem is that the entry given is for the natural lycanthrope (which is obviously much better) and it's still CR 2 where it should be CR 3 at least.
Isn't the problem here with the kingmaker random encounter chart?
Doesn't it have trolls on the same list. Now that's something to talk about.
Your party seemed unprepared for this encounter. Having three people make this happen more often. Some low level parties would have sleep at their disposal. That's a DC 15ish will save with a +2 mod. Encounter Done. Two handed fighter with greatsword (2d6+6) damage that will break through the DR. A rouge with a flank friend(ranged ranger and shaman don't look like they will provide that) would also get his extra 1d6. A simple Ray of enfeeblement makes the werebeast have a hard time hitting as well which give the players(who have more actions) an easy time of getting ahead. Just one silver weapon turns the fight right around.
I'm not saying a werewolf is easy, it's not supposed to be. You just have to think differently. Bows stink with DR, so I carry a Greatsword just in case. that sort of thing.
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Ha! I remember having this exact encounter in Kingmaker. He beat the snot out of my party, but they came out all right in the end. Luckily I had a fighter who could dish out boatloads of damage, so they were able to get fairly decent damage in even with the DR.
Tough encounter for low-level groups. If you like higher lethality in your games, stick with it, if not, adjust the CR or give your party an advantage when they find one.
Isn't the problem here with the kingmaker random encounter chart?
** spoiler omitted **
Your party seemed unprepared for this encounter. Having three people make this happen more often. Some low level parties would have sleep at their disposal. That's a DC 15ish will save with a +2 mod. Encounter Done. Two handed fighter with greatsword (2d6+6) damage that will break through the DR. A rouge with a flank friend(ranged ranger and shaman don't look like they will provide that) would also get his extra 1d6. A simple Ray of enfeeblement makes the werebeast have a hard time hitting as well which give the players(who have more actions) an easy time of getting ahead. Just one silver weapon turns the fight right around.
I'm not saying a werewolf is easy, it's not supposed to be. You just have to think differently. Bows stink with DR, so I carry a Greatsword just in case. that sort of thing.
Sleep with a +2 modifier in your casting stat nets you a DC of 13. Saves not the issue though.
Our rogue DID have flanking via the shaman's lion companion, but the flanking bonus wasn't doing enough to help the rogue HIT, and not hitting means no sneak attack dice. He is using finesse with a +4 Dex mod and a magic weapon, his chance to hit is the same as mine because the +1 enhancement bonus just brings him up from having a lower BAB.
It's not that there weren't player errors made or bad rolls, but DR 10 is excessive at such low levels.
A 2nd level greatsword fighter with similar stats would have an 18 Str, +2 BAB, and whatever feats he chose - say Weapon Focus/Spec are among them - and a masterwork weapon at best if the WBL chart is remotely close (1000g @ 2nd level). So a +8 to hit for 2d6+8. There is still a chance that he does zero damage. That should never happen to a fighter, even at 2nd level.
While anyone can agree that sleep would have resolved the issue, I would hope that the spell in particular isn't even considered while designing monsters like werewolves. To think "we can give this monster tons of DR/AC/HP/whatever because the PCs will just put it to sleep" was something uttered in development makes me bristle.
TL;DR: While it's doable, the encounter required too many rolls to go just right. We had to roll high attacks (15+) and then high on damage (max damage for 2 of 3), or hit it with spells, which we have in limited quantities.
The high AC, which was at a +6 from the chainmail, as Foghammer's post touches on, is rough, and a more iconic version of a werewolf wouldn't have any armor on, though its natural armor and maybe a Dodge bonus would keep it respectable (though no as high as 22).
The werewolf does have the ability to polymorph into a dire werewolf. Maybe that's a solution.
Edit: Okay, well I'm not too sure about the dire wolf part, but it does mention polymorph in it's special qualities.
God. I really didn't like the werewolf because I thought it was way to weak to be what it was.
May be. But that has nothing to do with our complaint. If a werewolf is *supposed* to be more powerful than a CR 2, then it shouldn't be a CR 2.
I can't really think of werewolves with 'standard gear' any more than humans or elves. Off the top of my head...? I like that some of them would embrace the more feral claw/bite approach - and might get the higher DR, though they wouldn't be wearing the armor - whereas others might be holding onto more of their humanity, using the wolf to heighten their senses and reflexes - so lower DR, more gear.
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I don't think dr should be a major factor in cr. I've never made a character without silver weapons myself. I thought a silver dagger was standard eq.
That's a rubbish response. That YOU have never made a character without silver weapons has no bearing on anything. Damage reduction is a HUGE deal. FYI, I started the game favoring cold iron weapons because the players guide to the AP mentioned fey.
Your players just need to try harder.
Insulting us doesn't make you look more intelligent, nor does it add anything to this discussion. In fact, it only served to make your opinions irrelevant to me.
Cranewings, I can appreciate having a higher CR werewolf that was built for that CR. That would be pretty interesting to see, really, as it would allow them to have special abilities and stuff. My main complaint was its CR versus its actual toughness to beat.
Anyway, not all of my players take the game very seriously. We have fun, and we get into it, but as far as spending time learning "standard" strategies (like always have a sleep spell at the ready in any given group, carrying around weapons of every material to puncture DR, etc.), I pretty much just have Foghammer, who helps the others but otherwise is the only proactive one about it. However, I know that as a GM, and I do my best to gauge what they can handle. In this case, as I stated, I saw it was a CR 2, glanced over the stat block, then started the encounter.
I don't think this is an issue in them trying, though. They have handled things well, and over the years that I've played with them, they do things fine. I don't think the fact that out of a party of 3, no one happened to have a weapon made out of a specific material (that is only used, AFAIK, to overcome a very specific type of damage reduction) that they aren't trying hard enough.
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Cranewings, that is complete and total metagaming. Every character you play ALWAYS carrying silver because you encountered a werewolf years ago in some long forgotten campaign is metagaming.
I'm going to defend them on this one. They're not noobs. They just don't go onto forums and research strategies. They don't care about min-maxing or even optimizing - they play PF to roleplay characters and adventure. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect this from your average PF player, and the CR system should definitely consider what sort of DR is acceptable at what level, because you can't seriously expect every party to have some way of handling it - otherwise, why even have the DR in the first place?
I'll ask you don't try to label my players after a single post not even related to their skill. It comes off as... elitist.
I don't think anyone can understand how much this hurts.......
I actually agree with Cranewings here (sorta). good lord do I feel dirty.
By level 2 the Party should have the "Easy" Dr Passers.
By "Easy" I am speaking of Cold Iron and Siler.
At least one person should have each kind.
And honestly if you have an archer he should have a few arrows of both (Blanches are awesome)
To me this is like complaining about swarms when you did not bring any AOE or alchemists fire.
Sometimes being prepared makes things a lot easier.
For the record a silver morningstar rocks, Silver B or P.
If we were talking DR/Ada at 2nd, then yeah you have a point.
But Silver? it's cheap for a reason.
After reading the OP i put these guys to the test and boy did my guy with natural weapons start to suck. It is ok though because hes the only optimizer of the group and the others use magic damage in one form or another, but if def made for a much tough encounter than was expected.
In real life, if I found out tomorrow that werewolves, vampires, and dragons were real and that I was going to go into an old crypt to get a million dollars, I'd ask around about what sorts of things I might need and then I would buy them.
Seriously, it is an RPG. I generally like to RP characters who go out of their way to be successful and a part of that is asking around about the things they might need and then buying them. When the GM is ok with it, I do that in my back story. If not, then I RP it as soon as I get some gold.
If you choose to play a character who chooses to adventure blindly without asking around about the sorts of things he might need, then you are choosing to RP a character that gets beat up by monsters with DR / Silver. That's a choice. SOME PEOPLE think that is fun. I know two players that like to RP people who don't know what's going on and also don't mind their characters getting beat up or killed. That's fine. But if you don't think that is fun, you might think about playing the kinds of characters that ask around about things they might need to buy. In fact, someone in the group probably has a knowledge skill that would inform...
Yeah, you are straying from the topic of this thread. I talked about two things: one, why the increased strength of the hybrid form doesn't seem to yield any sort of CR increase; two, location of a stat block for werewolves more suited to my depiction of them.
You have come on here, insulted my players and only offered advice that is, at best, metagaming with some reverse-engineering involved to make it seem like you didn't.
What is so wrong with players who don't want to plan for every possible scenario? The game shouldn't require people to, and something like a DR 10 at level two, even if punctured by a relatively cheap special material, is extreme enough that players need to. And overall, I don't think it does - that's why I brought up that point at all, because it IS too high.
I mean, the werewolf also has a 22 AC. At level 2, you can expect to have a masterwork weapon, so at a 20 Str and +2 BAB, you have +8 attack bonus, you have to roll a 14 - that's a 65% miss chance. If you have a greatsword, you've got 2d6+5 (average 12 damage), average 2 damage a hit. It has 21 hit points. And that's an optimized (though not min-maxed) build.
Sure, the silver cuts through the DR. But they're level 2! I've seen a parties go a few levels before they ever get a chance to hit up a town and take the time to get special materials weapons. It doesn't help any that this was a random encounter that was completely unavoidable. Like I said, I felt bad for my players, and I altered its stats during the encounter to make it actually beatable.
Anyway, it's kind of clear that you are only interested in being demeaning to people you have never met and know absolutely nothing of, so I will ask that you just drop it.
If I remember right(might not as I only read thru the kingmaker lightly and havn't run it yet) I thought the werewolf in question was infected and not natural. This would change the fight to be MUCH easier with only DR5 and probably no sword during the fight as infected werewolves dont have as much control in hybrid or animal forms.
Asta
PSY
I might have missed that, Psy. The random encounter chart only listed "werewolf," and nothing else. I understand, from looking at it myself and the many anecdotal stories from others, that the Kingmaker random encounter chart is way off, but it more helped me discover the problems I have with the werewolf stat block.
Although I definitely agree, no sword and DR 5 would've made a huge difference. Like I said, though, my concept of werewolves don't involve any gear - natural armor and natural attacks all the way.
Also, the bite attack gets a free trip. I understand that on a wolf (or similar animal), and I understand that if it was the more feral werewolf fighting with claws/bite, but when it is using a longsword, the concept of a bite attack offering a free trip is a bit strange. This was brought up at the table, I just forgot to mention it.
So, last session, my players ran into a random encounter - a werewolf.
So after seeing the number on the chart, I flipped the Bestiary to the Lycanthrope entry, scanned over its stats (in hybrid form), and started the encounter.
It wasn't but a few rounds into the encounter that I realized just how terrible that entry is.
Real quick, check the human form. CR 2, though it is a 2nd level fighter, but that's okay - it does have a few things that are buffed from being a werewolf. Overall, doesn't seem that bad.
Now let's look at the hybrid form.
First, gear. Okay, it is using a longsword and a bite attack; that's not at all what I think when I think werewolf. I think of clawing and biting, but it doesn't even get a claw attack. Also, it has a crossbow. What? Who has ever envisioned a werewolf using a crossbow? If you try to make the argument that the hybrid form is the human form shifted and to just use what makes sense, then why the heck isn't it listed under a "Gear" section, instead of attacks? Finally, it is wearing chainmail. Nice.
Let's move on. DR 10/silver. This was actually something I altered mid-game when I realized it - I cut it down to 5. I think out of my party, if they all hit, they averaged around 6 damage per hit. Only 1 of them had a way of bypassing the DR, and that's because she was having to use blast spells. Regardless, according to d20pfsrd.com's Monster DB, only the Doru, Lantern Archon, and the lycanthropic enemies have DR 10 at CR 2 - all others are 5.
Thing is, there is no listed CR change from the human form to the hybrid form. So this DR 10/silver, the increased stats, new bite attack (which has trip and curse of lycanthropy tied to it), and the +5 to its AC (a whopping 22 at "CR 2") apparently yield no CR change? I felt bad for throwing it at my party, and I gave them extra experience after it.
Anyone know of a better werewolf stat block, maybe one that's more fitting to a bit more...
Mix your werewolf with barbarian levels, not warrior. Build em hard and be impressed. A long time gaming friend I know thinks werewolves should be unstoppable killing machines, and something like CR 13 off the bat. Too much white wolf in his tea.
look at it this way, in 3.5 lycans used to be MUCH worse as they gained all positive modifiers to physical stats in addition to most of the same changes they get still. Now they just get a +2 wis for a -2 cha and +2 to strength and con while in hybrid or animal form. The trade off paizo did was instead of any clothing or armor worn being destroyed anytime you change form, it still fits when in hybrid, and merges with you when you go animal. Still in my opinion not very overpowered for the probable prejudice you would face most of the time when your heritage is discovered.
I also feel that all lycans should get claw attacks at least while in hybrid form. personally I dont think following pathfinder natural attack baselines would make a werewolf that much more powerful with a d4 on each hand or at max a d6 with a feat blown on it.
Asta
PSY
That seems ridiculous to me (of course says the 3.5 guy). I go for the massive stat boosts of 3.5 but clothing items get torn up and discarded.
I don't see a problem here, actually.
You as GM know your group best. If they're there for the fun, you should provide it to them.
To me, this includes looking at things like random encounters and adjust them as necessary - better in advance, but on-the-fly works, too.
My group cut through 3 of them like butter - without having a silver weapon and without me adjusting anything. Granted, they were APL 3 at that time.
The books published give guidelines. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you feel that the werewolf right out of the book is more than CR 2 - award more XP. Done.
If you feel, the werewolf right out of the book is more than your group can tackle - adjust it. Done (as you've written, you actually did that).
Ruyan.
Yeah, if you want them to tear off their clothes and items, go with it. If you think rings, necklaces and fancy plate should be absorbed into the creature and still continue to function, go with that as well.
A lycanthrope can also take Aspect of the Beast and gain 2 claw attacks.
Thus the desire to have a werewolf with claws and bite is handled with a single feat spent due to the text of the feat itself.
"Special: A character that has contracted lycanthropy can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites."
I agree and disagree with the OP.
The Kingmaker random encounter table isn't "way off". It follows the old-school notion that those monsters are around there, it's up for your players to measure their own strenght and evaluate the situation on the fly. I had my level 1 players running from an owlbear in the woods (ended up tying it with the owlbear from book 2).
The werewolf, though, is one strange critter. I faced a similar situation in my campaign.
He shot some arrows onto him, and between AC and DR, didn't deal squat damage. Seeing as I described the were feasting on a deer with his bare hands, I winged a 1d4 claw attack (the Aspect of the Beast feat does this easily) instead of that longsword. The ranger tried climbing a tree, the were followed. He jumped, the were jumped. It seemed like he was going to die alone in the woods, but the were rolled a 1 and fell prone (we use some simple fumble rules) giving the ranger time to run for his life.
He reached the camp a half-hour later, covered in bite marks. A couple Knowledge checks later, he took the fastest horse back to Oleg's to try and find a cure before the next night.
That particular player ended up leaving the campaign for other reasons. I had the character (an elf ranger) try to cure his lycanthropy before it was too late but he failed. The party, at this point pretty pissed about him, also tried to hunt him down and failed (he had Favored Terrain - Forests).
For years they watched the woods, and their rangers would sometimes report seeing a strange Stag-headed archer (this was at the end of book 1, and he got the Stag Helm). They discovered later that he spent those years hunting each and every lycanthrope in those woods, trying to find the one who cursed him. Ended up using all that as hooks for events later.
Now he has a deal with the kingdom's spymaster. He roams the woods, bringing information, and during the nights of the full moon he's chained in the guy's basement so he won't spread his curse.
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I've always ran werewolves as big, scary, killing machines with claw and bite attacks.
The idea of a werewolf clad in armor, swinging a sword and using a crossbow just sounds like a Gnoll. Just sayin'.
I'd guess the werewolf entry has equiptment because sometimes, he's not in wolf or hybrid shape.
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Sounds like some of you guys need casters in your parties, lol. Last time I was in a low level group, the wizard just hit it with scorching ray a couple of times and that was it.
A 2nd level fighter with 18 STR and power attack swinging a greatsword deals 2d6+9 damage per hit (average 16 or 6 past DR) and has (hopefully) several buddies to provide flanking or buffs or heals (or all three). Also, bear in mind the werewolf's CMD is much lower than its AC, so hp damage isn't the only way to beat it.
I would call it a tough CR 2, but the human form should probably be a CR 1.
We had a werewolf encounter in my homebrew campaign and the barbarian with 22 STR while raging and power attack put a whooping on the werewolf, knowing that he wasn't facing it alone. Seemed like a good CR 2 fight to me.
Yeah, if werewolves don't remain hidden, powerful spellcasters can make them explode.
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My group (Barb, Rogue, Druid, Cleric) started playing Kingmaker a couple of weeks ago. We ran into a werewolf encounter during the night (we were lv 2) and we didn't have much problem at all. For our group as a CR 2 it was just fine. But as others have said as GM you adjust it as you need so that it works for your group.
As for carrying cold iron, silver, etc. We don't let characters do that unless they have skill points in the appropriate knowledge areas to know they might need that kind of thing. We use the same logic for bear traps and the like around the camp if we suspect trouble usually falling back on a need for survival skill or a rogue depending on what surprises we are setting up.