Throwing weapons in Pathfinder


Advice


How can this combat style be optimized? I am bulding a party of Npcs who focus in non standar tactics and I want "jarlaxle"-type of character.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

honestly? use the 3.5 prestige class "Master Thrower". It's well balanced, and only five levels. It's the only one that I can think of that fits.


Xavier319 wrote:
honestly? use the 3.5 prestige class "Master Thrower". It's well balanced, and only five levels. It's the only one that I can think of that fits.

I know Master Thrower would work but I wonder if there is a way to do it in PF

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

not really. archery got great support, which is wonderful. but thrown weapons has gotten little to no support. there are some feats, but if you're an archer, you'll do more damage, at ten times the range, and only have to enchant one weapon.

Grand Lodge

Alchemist is the ultimate thrower.

Liberty's Edge

It works well for Str=Dex switch hitter builds before you can afford a heavy pull composite bow (i.e. in the first couple levels) because they get the STR bonus to damage off the hop.

Human javelin Fighter:
L1) Quick draw, point blank, rapid shot
or:
L1) Quick draw, two weapon fighting? (to throw two at once)

Any race Ranger:
L1) Quick draw
L2) Rapid Shot/TWF?

Carry lots of javelins. 30' range is plenty in the dungeon.

Once you are into every weapon is a magic weapon levels, there's not much that can be done unless you get a bunch (a pair?) of returning javelins which is really silly.

At higher wealth levels, you could have several returning javelins, an efficient quiver to carry more. Basically the feats would be the same as an archer but they don't get manyshot, require quick draw and far shot probably.


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Throwing got nerfed in PF.

All the prestige classes that made it work are gone. The Far Shot feat, which used to DOUBLE thrown range increments now just halves the stupid penalties (so your trident or dagger's still only going 50 ft at most). Ranged sneak attacking methods, since rogue types tended to be the best throwers due to being able to put out good damage even w/ nonmagical weapons (who the hell can afford to enhance 10+ weapons?), were also massively nerfed to the point where it is very very VERY hard to get ranged sneak attack past round 1.

You could try an alchemist, but their bombs are too limited in use for any long days and actual regular splash weapons simply don't keep up for damage. You could try a high strength guy chucking 2H weapons via either of the feats in UC that made it possible to do so w/ a full attack, but your range and damage output is going to suck. Or you could try a rogue -- or better yet, a Vivvisectionist Alchemist -- with a dip into Oracle for Water Sight in order to pump out ranged sneak attacks with relative impunity. Third option is probably the best, but takes the most work, thought, and investment. If you went that route, you'd want sniper goggles and javelins, to sneak attack up to 150 ft away.

Beg your DM to allow 3.5's Far Shot feat. I seriously have no idea why paizo nerfed it; it was a weak feat to begin with.

Grand Lodge

Inquisitor or Cleric of Yaezhing with the Guided hand feat can use wisdom for attack rolls with shuriken.

Liberty's Edge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Throwing got nerfed in PF.

All the prestige classes that made it work are gone. The Far Shot feat, which used to DOUBLE thrown range increments now just halves the stupid penalties (so your trident or dagger's still only going 50 ft at most). Ranged sneak attacking methods, since rogue types tended to be the best throwers due to being able to put out good damage even w/ nonmagical weapons (who the hell can afford to enhance 10+ weapons?), were also massively nerfed to the point where it is very very VERY hard to get ranged sneak attack past round 1.

You could try an alchemist, but their bombs are too limited in use for any long days and actual regular splash weapons simply don't keep up for damage. You could try a high strength guy chucking 2H weapons via either of the feats in UC that made it possible to do so w/ a full attack, but your range and damage output is going to suck. Or you could try a rogue -- or better yet, a Vivvisectionist Alchemist -- with a dip into Oracle for Water Sight in order to pump out ranged sneak attacks with relative impunity. Third option is probably the best, but takes the most work, thought, and investment. If you went that route, you'd want sniper goggles and javelins, to sneak attack up to 150 ft away.

Beg your DM to allow 3.5's Far Shot feat. I seriously have no idea why paizo nerfed it; it was a weak feat to begin with.

Far Shot didn't get nerfed. 3.5 says that with FS, you can actually shoot farther than you normally could - basically you are somehow able to draw the bow back further than you could before, or put more oomph into throwing that axe - but you're still no better at hitting a target in any given category. PF says that the max range for the weapons are its max range, you are just able to hit better in those ranges.

Furthermore, if shooting at a target that is 999 feet away with a longbow, in 3.5 the penalty is going to be -12 (though you can still hit targets further away), in PF the penalty is going to be -9 (and you can't shoot any further).

Not nerfed, just a different philosophy in how it is supposed to work.


Let's look at a javelin and compare 3E vs. Pathfinder at various ranges (I was never clear if "range increment 30" meant you had no penalty at 0-29 ft or 0-30 ft; since the game's done in 5 ft increments, I've ALWAYS seen it played as the latter, though).

I'll list the attack penalty in 3E and then the attack penalty in PF for each range listed.

0-30 ft: 0 vs. 0

31-60 ft: 0 vs. -1

61-90 ft: -2 vs. -1

91-120 ft: -2 vs. -2

121-150 ft: -4 vs. -3

151-180 ft: -4 vs. -4

181-240 ft: -6 vs. NOT POSSIBLE

241-300 ft: -8 vs. NOT POSSIBLE

So...the PF version is never providing more than a +1 bonus to hit over the 3E version, and even then, only at two small portions of range, each 30 ft deep. The 3E version actually has the edge for one 30 ft portion, also. For the first 90 ft, 3E version is just plainly better. PF does not see an advantage until we hit the 121+ ft mark.

Even looking at it solely from the magnitude of bonus...I'm not impressed. The shorter the distance, the more attacks you're likely to see at it, IME with D&D combat. I would rather be at +1 to hit from 31-60 ft than to be at +1 to hit at 61-90 and 121-150 ft. Even if you disagree with that, there's still the matter of 3E version's actually doubling the range you can attack...

In short: 3E's version is better at very close and infinitely better at very far ranges (since PF's version can't even operate at them). PF's version is better at specific spots of middle ranges.

Ergo, PF nerfed Far Shot.


Do ammentums count for anything on a javelin it's not perfect but the extra twenty feet on the range increment is nice but it only works once per battle if I'm not mistaken so that maxes them out at 250 feet right with a negative 5 at that range? I personally see throwing weapons as a way for a high str character with adequate dex to start something if he can't charge for some reason. And also could a magus with the myrmidarch use the ranged spell strike on thrown weapons( yes not as good as a bow but those seems to dominate range for historical reasons i assume) and if so it would help a bit I suppose.

Scarab Sages

First off, if you are going Javelins, use an Atl-Atl &Darts. Same thing, but with 50' range Incs.

I, too, lament the lack of love for throwing Archetypes. I mean...there are 4+ Archer viable ones (For Fighter,Ranger,Rogue,Monk), and nothing for thrown weapons. It's a bummer.

-Uriel


Have a bard with the flagbearer feat accompany the NPCs to boost their to hit and damage.

If there are halforcs or orcs with them give them the trait that increases damage as long as you got a morale bonus to hit/attack. Don't know which.


Rogue with Scout Archtype so you can use snaeak attack Damage if you move at least 10' on your first attack, take point Blank shot and Precise shot and you can keep away from critters while sneak attacking every round...works for both thrown weapons and bows. You can also take Quickdraw later if you want to sneakk attack multiple thrown weapons (just not using the Scout ability but normal Snaek attack mechanics)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Quick Draw and Two-Weapon Fighting with chakrams works pretty well.

Quick Draw and Two-Weapon Fighting with amenta-wrapped javelins gives better range, but slightly less damage.

Thrown weapons are just less cost-effective to improve than missile-fire devices and ammunition as you go up in level, but they can still do respectable damage.


I agree with Unklbuck, rogue w/ scout archetype, also would recommend the Knife Master archetype, it'll increase your sneak attacks with thrown daggers to d8's, as long as you can use multiple archetypes, which I haven't seen anything to the contrary so...


The archer Archetype is actually pretty well balanced if you simply replace the word "bow" with "thrown." in fact it makes more sense to disarm with a starknife than an arrow really. The only awkward part is the volley ability. that would either be several throwing weapons in one action, or one that "bounces" somehow. It works with my intended build of a starknife with the ricochet hammers ability as it makes sense. Granted, it will be weaker than an archer, but a lot more fun

Edit: after looking up the chakram (which I believed were equivalent to starknives) I think I'll be going with them instead

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Two things I got my DM to allow in Pathfinder during a Skulls and Shackles campaign that made a javelin thrower work:

The feat Brutal Throw. This allows you to use your strength rather than dexterity for your attack modifier with thrown weapons.

Then also the item Gloves of Endless Javelins from Magic Item Compendium. Endless +1 javelins of force.

Went fighter/barbarian and it was quite viable.


Check this out from RavingDork

Bumi

Scarab Sages

Brawler Fighter with Quick Draw, Agile Wushu Darts, and a blinkback belt.

Add Close quarters thrower, Combat Reflexes, Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot.

You deny all movement in a 15' radius, you have a sickening amount of static damage on every hit thanks to class , dex, specialization, and deadly aim.

You still have terrible range and a feat tax, but you can make a sub-optimal style work with it.

Silver Crusade

Wait till August 14th an see what the Advanced Class Guide has to offer. :-)

Paizo Blog wrote:
people have been asking for a thrown weapon ranger combat style for a while, right? Yeah, we have that too!

LINK

Shadow Lodge

A ninja shiriken thrower with smoke bomb, flurry of shuriken, and a gos mask can deal massive damage on a fullround action every round that the smoke bomb is active. Fog spells work as well, but you need to dip oracle for water sight or sorcerer for that build to work well.

Clustered shots is the only thing that makes this build viable in the mid to late game unfortunately.


Since the Alchemy Manual now allows Kyonin's Alchemical Archery section to be used with any ranged or throwing weapon, add some ranks in Craft (Alchemy) to make your own gear. Need some extra damage? Add Slow Burn to your darts. Need to boost your animal companion's hit chance? Hit your target with some Pheromone daggers. Your ally is about to be CDG'ed and you only have one shot to stop the guy? Toss a throwing axe and Trip him up.

Wear a utility belt, call yourself Batman.

Scarab Sages

LuniasM wrote:

Since the Alchemy Manual now allows Kyonin's Alchemical Archery section to be used with any ranged or throwing weapon, add some ranks in Craft (Alchemy) to make your own gear. Need some extra damage? Add Slow Burn to your darts. Need to boost your animal companion's hit chance? Hit your target with some Pheromone daggers. Your ally is about to be CDG'ed and you only have one shot to stop the guy? Toss a throwing axe and Trip him up.

Wear a utility belt, call yourself Batman.

I really need to get the Alchemy Manual...

Sovereign Court

I've been playing a paladin wielding a no-dachi (two-handed sword), and throwing javelins if there are no enemies in convenient melee range. Draw and throw with one hand, then re-grip sword. It works pretty well for something that doesn't cost any feats and very little money.


Imbicatus wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

Since the Alchemy Manual now allows Kyonin's Alchemical Archery section to be used with any ranged or throwing weapon, add some ranks in Craft (Alchemy) to make your own gear. Need some extra damage? Add Slow Burn to your darts. Need to boost your animal companion's hit chance? Hit your target with some Pheromone daggers. Your ally is about to be CDG'ed and you only have one shot to stop the guy? Toss a throwing axe and Trip him up.

Wear a utility belt, call yourself Batman.

I really need to get the Alchemy Manual...

It's a pretty good buy, IMO. The Spontaneous Alchemy crafting rules are really cool, and the Varisian Fireworks section made me want to build a character around them - anything that gives you new ideas is worth it in my book.

Sovereign Court

I like the Manual. Not everything is immediately useful, but quite a bit is. And it's got a nice wide variety of different approaches to alchemy; good flavor and inspiration.


I think I see Paizo making in roads to this. I expect to see some thrower focused love in Advanced class guide, and I think later in the year they have announce a guide to ranged combat in one of the monthly books. Also fingers crossed that the Pathfinder Unchained rogue might get some throwing love (or alternate throwing rules). So hold on I think Pathfinder is hearing our plight.

Sovereign Court

A guide to ranged combat? Interesting. It would be nice if there came to be more different ranged combat weapons that can compete with bows (and guns), without being just more of the same.

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