What is the definitive shape/design of the Elven Curved Blade? I immediately pictured the long handled two handed swords the elves used in the prologe of Fellowship of the Ring. If I do an image search on google no two are similar.
I would suggest this although there isn't a standard design that I know of.
That is one of Drizzt Do'Urden's scimatars.
Yeah I see a lot of what I would call scimitars, or falcions but I am looking for something that differenciates them to show that it is reasonable to assume they are finessible.
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I like the idea of using " the long handled two handed swords the elves used in the prologe of Fellowship of the Ring."
Like Elrond's sword is how I picture it.
Front cover of Elves of Golarion. There is an elf leaping through the air using one.
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There's an example of artwork in the Rival Guide of a dwarf with one. A bit like this khopesh but a bit more slender and elongated.
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Well the magus typically uses a one hand weapon and the elven curve blade is a two hander. I think the magus is holding an aldori dueling sword.
Front cover of Elves of Golarion. There is an elf leaping through the air using one.No that's Merisiel, the Iconic, and she wields a rapier.
I do like the FOTR Elven idea though.
Not Merisiel, the elf in the background, jumping, wielding a large, thin, curved sword in two hands.
This Is what I usually roll with as to what an ECB looks like.
Just with the blade and grip being a little longer.
I've always pictured it like the Elven Courtblade from 3.5, rather like this except almost being a cross between a greatsword and a scimitar.
This Is what I usually roll with as to what an ECB looks like.
Just with the blade and grip being a little longer.
Kinda like an elven nagamaki... nice.
The magus is holding an axiomatic longsword. If memory serves correct...unless they changed Seltyel's equipment.
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Not Merisiel, the elf in the background, jumping, wielding a large, thin, curved sword in two hands.Front cover of Elves of Golarion. There is an elf leaping through the air using one.No that's Merisiel, the Iconic, and she wields a rapier.
I do like the FOTR Elven idea though.
Ah there we go. I just locked onto the first elf jumping through the air I suppose :P
I always pictured it as being a longer version of a katana. One thing I never got was why katanas - which are quite light weapons - were not finesse weapons when used two-handed.
Yeah the nagamaki or even the yet to be formally named elven swords from fellowship of the rings. Seem to make the most sense to me I just am amazed there is little to no definative design.
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I always pictured it as being a longer version of a katana. One thing I never got was why katanas - which are quite light weapons - were not finesse weapons when used two-handed.
Katanas are comparatively light to weapons of their length, but they're still heavy and unwieldy enough so that they require the use of two-hands. I kind of actually see the Elven Court Blade like that. A greatsword which is slightly lighter in build, maybe even curved and with better balance...but still very heavy and could still cut through stuff. Or the sword in the Rival Guide works too.
If you have the Weapon Finesse feat you may add dex to hit INSTEAD of strength, and no weapon adds Dex-and-a-half or strength-and-a-=half to hit, two handed weapons add strength-and-a-half to damage, Agile weapons may add dex-to-damage INSTEAD of strength, but not dex-and-a-half.
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I am so very sorry about this, but i dont know how to add threads and am new here. I was just wondering, do you add dex and a half to hit with ECB? And do you add STR to damage ? Thanks and once again sorry.
You add your Str bonus to attack and (because it's a two-handed weapon) 1.5xStr bonus to damage.
If you have Weapon Finesse, you add your Dex bonus to attack, instead of your Str bonus, dut damage remains tied to Str.
There is no such thing as 'adding Dex and a half' to attack rolls, nor even Str and a half to attack rolls.
EDIT: ...pesky ninjas....
Also you add a new thread by clicking the add new thread button at the top. But it only shows if you're in a sub forum.
See the top of this page for example.
What is the definitive shape/design of the Elven Curved Blade? I immediately pictured the long handled two handed swords the elves used in the prologe of Fellowship of the Ring. If I do an image search on google no two are similar.
This would seem to be the definitive version...
I always pictured it as being a longer version of a katana. One thing I never got was why katanas - which are quite light weapons - were not finesse weapons when used two-handed.
I disagree. They are no lighter than other weapons of their size. They're made of the same material as any other sword (which is steel).
I always pictured it as being a longer version of a katana. One thing I never got was why katanas - which are quite light weapons - were not finesse weapons when used two-handed.I disagree. They are no lighter than other weapons of their size. They're made of the same material as any other sword (which is steel).
Having handled katanas, rapiers, arming swords, scimitars, etc. I would have to disagree with this statement. The katana and the rapier both were lighter weapons by design (edit: they used metal, just less metal relying on good metalurgy and engineering design to maintain strength). Using a katana two-handed gives great control and finesse with the weapon that are unavailable when using it one handed (which is possible) and makes it much quicker to position using the right hand as fulcrum to the left hand's control.
There is actually an image of the Elven Curve Blade in Ultimate Equipment.
There is actually an image of the Elven Curve Blade in Ultimate Equipment.
And it is basically a two-handed scimitar.
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Having handled katanas, rapiers, arming swords, scimitars, etc. I would have to disagree with this statement. The katana and the rapier both were lighter weapons by design (edit: they used metal, just less metal relying on good metalurgy and engineering design to maintain strength).
No, this is not true. The Katana used crappy metal, so had to be folded and crafted so carefully so it was actually usable. Did you know the curve isn't even "intended" so much as a side effect of the crafting process required to use the crappy metal Japan had available?
And I want to dispel a myth about Rapiers--they are awkward as hell. They are extremely long (longer than typical arming swords I am familiar with) and require a lot of power in your wrists and hand to wield because of how poorly balanced a huge long blade like that is.
And all weapons are lighter than the weights in the book. 4 lbs. for a longsword is ridiculous.
Having handled katanas, rapiers, arming swords, scimitars, etc. I would have to disagree with this statement. The katana and the rapier both were lighter weapons by design (edit: they used metal, just less metal relying on good metalurgy and engineering design to maintain strength).No, this is not true. The Katana used crappy metal, so had to be folded and crafted so carefully so it was actually usable. Did you know the curve isn't even "intended" so much as a side effect of the crafting process required to use the crappy metal Japan had available?
And I want to dispel a myth about Rapiers--they are awkward as hell. They are extremely long (longer than typical arming swords I am familiar with) and require a lot of power in your wrists and hand to wield because of how poorly balanced a huge long blade like that is.
And all weapons are lighter than the weights in the book. 4 lbs. for a longsword is ridiculous.
this is true, the metal sucked which is why you dont see much if it in japan, the secret to it was in all the super extra time and expertise it took to make a sword at all. The bend is due to the cooling and can vary from blade to blade. The better metal used today means modern versions are barely bent at all.
The katana isnt necessarily less weight, but balanced differently. Plus the stuff you find in the mall to hang on your wall isnt really a katana.
many people think an epee or foil, used in modern fencing, is a rapier. but it's not... those are light and wispy, the rapier is closer to johnny depps cutlass than a fencing foil
The Typical Longsword/Arming Sword is 3-5 Lbs depending on its style. It is just balanced well enough that it feels lighter. Same goes for a well made Katana.
And Pendagast is correct a Rapier is more or Like a wider version of Arya Stark's Needle. It is light but shorter than an Epee which was originaly used with a shield in a manner similar to how the Roman Legionary used his Gladius.
The Elven Weapons from LotR is based on the Falx. Which is basically a form of a Falchion in 3.x/PFRPG.
That said the weapon could look like anything you want. Even that weird one we got in Ultimate Equipment...
Though I will probably be looking into these miniatures for my elven warriors. Either that or maybe getting Games Workshop's LotR/The Hobbit Miniatures. & wow yet again I am thinking on getting GW Miniatures...
I have to agree though that Epee-style blades suck for dueling. But when used in their original fighting style they are... Well Yikes...
Having handled katanas, rapiers, arming swords, scimitars, etc. I would have to disagree with this statement. The katana and the rapier both were lighter weapons by design (edit: they used metal, just less metal relying on good metalurgy and engineering design to maintain strength).No, this is not true. The Katana used crappy metal, so had to be folded and crafted so carefully so it was actually usable. Did you know the curve isn't even "intended" so much as a side effect of the crafting process required to use the crappy metal Japan had available?
Yes I did know that they started with crappy metal. I also know that the quality of the worked metal at the end was very high. I also do know that the curve was a result of the final quench - that doesn't make it less effective or unintended. It's just the way it came about. The irony is that without crappy metal they never would have spent so much time making a decent sword, and as a result came up with a brilliant sword of great quality. There are swords which match the katana for cutting power, but not combined with it's speed.
In fact I've seen a comparison made between a modern katana forged with high-quality steel, and a katana made the traditional way. The comparison was in the damage each could inflict vs armoured and unarmed targets - the traditional blade still had a slight edge, if any.
All this also doesn't change the fact that weight-wise, the katana is lighter than a broadsword of equivelant length, and grip-wise is much more balanced in two hands, which was my point.
And I want to dispel a myth about Rapiers--they are awkward as hell. They are extremely long (longer than typical arming swords I am familiar with) and require a lot of power in your wrists and hand to wield because of how poorly balanced a huge long blade like that is.
That depends on the rapier in question. There are several types, the originals being the standard 'arming swords' of around the 16th & 17th centuries as used by Spanish conquistadors and in the English civil war. These were lighter and thinner than the earlier arming swords, with more emphasis on thrusting through armour rather than hacking and bludgeoning the enemy down, and some started to feature the offset grip that made thrusting easier. I've tried one of these rapiers, and they are quite handy weapons - you can fence with them, but they are tough enough to take the battering of a real all-out melee.
The French Musketeers used the long rapier, a four-foot long thrusting blade which was very unwieldy but had great reach on it. The short rapier is immortalised by Zorro in the original TV series and later in films, and was a much easier weapon to wield. This latter weapon was getting close to the style and function of the modern epee and foil.
Another example of a similar weapon was the British cavalry sword of the early 20th century that saw some use in WWI - similar in that it was a sword designed primarily for the thrust, with an offset grip that made the straight blade an extension of the line of the arm, turning the two into a short lance.
And all weapons are lighter than the weights in the book. 4 lbs. for a longsword is ridiculous.
This I agree with, the weight of the weapons in the books is way out, at least for the weapon alone. An arming sword would contain only 2-3lbs of metal, but bear in mind the heavy leather scabbard and belt that went with it. The balance of the weapons made a difference as well. A Viking broadsword and a medieval arming sword were similar weight and length, but are balanced quite differently - the arming sword relies on a counterweight pommel while the Viking broadsword uses the little finder as a lever against a light, flared pommel.
A nagamaki might fit.
Holy crap that's a long blade!! (Or is the dude weilding it a dwarf?!) :)
Never seen Seven Samurai?
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Nonsequiter: I basically just made the elven curve blade's stats the stats of the Bastard Sword, which makes it a weapon worth paying a feat for.
Just a small point, yes, Katana's weigh less than a broad sword of the same length, because the blade is alot thinner (Less wide from edge to back, not 'thick')) at the same length. That's sort of a no duh sort of thing. The Katana's blade might be 1.5 inches from edge to spine and a broad sword 3 inches. At the same length the three inch wide blade is going to weigh more than the 1.5 inch wide blade.
The Katana might have more compact mass, but still. More steel= heavier blade.
It's really nothing special. Nondecorative examples of European swords from the same era have similar performance. Katanas cut some materials better and some worse. They thrust through some armors pretty well and some armors not so well.
Quality modern reproductions of European swords are a recent phenomenon while Japanese swordsmithing tradition is continuous so it was, until relatively recently, far easier to find a good katana outside a museum or private collection than any European sword not used in a surviving style of fencing. The katana superiority myths come from before renewed interest in medieval and renaissance martial arts produced a market for combat quality reproductions.
The katana is, as I have said, no better than many blades at cutting. However, nothing can cut as well as a katana AND cut as fast, the recovery time on the other blades is longer. That's why it's good; not because it is notably better at cutting but because of the speed with which you can make several cuts.
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Weapons evolve to best cope with their environment, and environment for weapons includes: armour it will face, weapons/shields (and the skilful use of them) which lie between attacker and target, the tactical realities of contemporary battle, social restrictions on weapon and armour use, and social acceptability of fighting/Dueling.
Life evolves in response to it's environment, and sometimes this may result in phenotypes which are supremely adapted; supercarnivores like the big cats are a good example. These 'perfectly' adapted creatures are vulnerable to sudden, extensive changes in their environment, so that they are not well adapted to the new situation. Take away the large prey, and the large supercarnivore's adaptations are no longer an advantage.
Both the katana and the British Army 1908 pattern sword are good examples of 'perfectly' evolved weapons. The 1908 pattern sword is when they finally got the damn thing right! Light enough to use sabre fencing techniques on the battlefield but heavy enough for battle, balanced for both cut and thrust but favouring the thrust, cheap enough to mass produce while remaining durable. Perfect. Just in time to be rendered obsolete by trench warfare, the heavy machine gun and the decline of cavalry. Bah! Humbug!
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The katana is, as I have said, no better than many blades at cutting. However, nothing can cut as well as a katana AND cut as fast, the recovery time on the other blades is longer. That's why it's good; not because it is notably better at cutting but because of the speed with which you can make several cuts.
I just totally disagree with you. No sword design is inherently faster than another--it is entirely based on weight, balance, and your own strength.
I just totally disagree with you. No sword design is inherently faster than another--it is entirely based on weight, balance, and your own strength.The katana is, as I have said, no better than many blades at cutting. However, nothing can cut as well as a katana AND cut as fast, the recovery time on the other blades is longer. That's why it's good; not because it is notably better at cutting but because of the speed with which you can make several cuts.
Sadly, you are demonstrably wrong in your disagreement because you are absolutely correct in your second statement. Recovering from a stroke means you have to change the momentum of the blade whether you hit or miss. If the weapon is lighter and you can apply more force more effectively, then you can recover faster. Hence the sword with better weight and balance - better designed and made - will be better for a given strength applied.
Weight - katana is lighter than most other blades of it's size, and certainly than all other two-handed blades save perhaps the ninjato which is basically a shortened, crude katana.
Balance - the two-handed grip allows this to be controlled more effectively, the length of the hilt itself adds balance.
Strength - you have both hands on it, you can apply more strength.
Most blades the size of the katana are one-handed, and heavier, so you have less applied strength and worse balance than the katana. Hence while they can deliver a cut as lethal in some cases as the katana, they can't recover from the cut as swiftly with just one hand and poorer balance. Even if swung two-handed, they don't have the longer two-handed grip to gain better balance and control. Hence the katana WILL recover faster from a given stroke.
Most blades larger than the katana are also heavier, even if they have the two handed grip and good balance. Hence the weight factor is heavily against the wielder, all other factors being equal, and the katana is still faster to recover from a blow.
I've swung a great many swords and other weapons, and I've seen demonstrations of multiple cuts with different weapons, and the katana could cut faster than all-comers which bears out my own experience, as to the mechanics of the situation. The way to beat a katana for speed is not on the cut but on the thrust; the rapier, the Chinese jian, can match or beat the two-handed katana for speed on the thrust.
Certain sabres/szalba and scimitars (from perhaps old Damascus) would give the katana a run for its money on cutting ability, and be potentially faster on speed. No two-handed manipulation needed, one handed with many deep cuts. To a sabre fencer, katana work can be a tad slow.
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What type of Katana? Pre-Tokugawa era (wherein they would properly be called a Tachi and be thicker as well as shorter), Tokugawa era (wherein you're looking at what essentially amounts to a non-battlefield personal sidearm)?
I'm not trained in either contemporary forms, nor old Koryū, but I've handled some newer and older pieces in my line of work, and I know some folks who have studied various old Japanese arts. My focus is Historical European Martial Arts (I teach) so that's more my specialty.
A well-made Katana is a fine cutter. That's it's intended purpose. But the thing is, that has nothing to do with its curve or "super-edge" representing some ultimate culmination of ideal weapons theory as compared with other places in the world. Any place where people have been killing one another for thousands of years, they generally figure out the best ways to do it, and repeat. A well made European or eastern blade cuts just as well, just as fast. This is because swords are generally designed to cut people, and those that couldn't do this weren't used.
Properly representing it's damage in D20 is rather pointless as most cutting weapons are crap against heavy metal armor of any kind (Bushi generally used polearms or the bow as their primary armored battlefield weapon before the musket swept feudal japan) and almost all of the D20 weapons are heinously over-weighted in any case.
Incidentally: I highly recommend this podcast for anyone wanting to know more about medieval swords. The guy who does it is a world-renowned custom swordmaker and an expert in the area. He's also one of my mentors. He knows his stuff. The Sword Geek
(He's also written a book and has a website for his work. Most of these links are to demonstrate that I have enough of an understanding to not be essentially blowing wind from my posterior regions.)
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Tachi are not Katana!
Tachi are more akin to a Scimitar.