How do you discourage a player who adamantly wants to play a monk/oracle with a Vow of Silence and the Deaf and Clouded Vision curses?
Run a Check your characters pre scenario with a mix of various skill and combat moments and let him see exactly how it is going to play out be sure to give out some magic items (make sure to tell everyone involved that this is just so they can see if they really like what they are playing nothing will be kept.) and let him decide.
If he's deadset on it, let him play it. He'll see how bad an idea it is in play, then let him reroll.
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Ravingdork....that's what's known as a self-correcting problem.
What is his/her reasoning for this concept? How does he/she plan on making up for these hindrances? Can you convince the player to get rid of one, preferably two of the vow/curses?
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Needs wizard levels and profession pinball.
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Horrible jokes revolving around a girl who was the same way?
Because the other players won't be fine with it, but will say they are anyways to not look mean to their friend.
Needs wizard levels and profession pinball.
How do you discourage a player who adamantly wants to play a monk/oracle with a Vow of Silence and the Deaf and Clouded Vision curses?
Is the character's name Tommy?
EDIT: ninja'd by Sersian and Timelord ninja'd by doctor_wu (AKA missed his post when scanning for Tommy references before posting)
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Better to draw the line in the sand now than be passive aggressive about it. People tend to resent the former a lot less than the latter. Take it from me.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Have tons of kobold encounters where instead of traps all of the furniture in the room is moved behind his back.
Wait, that is only if they are blind and deaf.
Point out to them that they can't cast spells with vocal components while under a vow of silence. Let them do a little research to find that there are very, very few spells without such components.
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Just ask him why any group of adventurers would want him on their team.
Have tons of kobold encounters where instead of traps all of the furniture in the room is moved behind his back.
Wait, that is only if they are blind and deaf.
Point out to them that they can't cast spells with vocal components while under a vow of silence. Let them do a little research to find that there are very, very few spells without such components.
That's actually solved with the deaf curse. All oracle spells would be cast silent.
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I know how I would handle it: You feel someone nudge you towards the door... you cloudily see it is someone you know, you think. You don't see the rogue, so it must be ok to enter. You enter. BOOM! Nope, the rogue must have been hiding somewhere. You are dieing, having taken a bleeding shrapnel wound, do you cry out for help, breaking your vow? No? You bleed to death. Re-roll.
Encourage his bravery? Award XP for role-playing his limitations well?
thinkmr magoo minus the rolling 20 every round e will be hit by a carriage.
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"This concept is too much work. You can be blind, or you can be deaf. Pick one. Otherwise I'm dedicating too much time per session saying: 'You have no idea what's going on'. This concept is interesting for an NPC, but impossible for an adventurer. I applaud your creativity, now I would like to see you really focus the concept."
I don't know if you can take two curses by RAW. Never played an oracle so I can't comment on that.
As for how to say no, just let the player know that you feel this kind of character just wouldn't fit in the kind of setting you wish to run. At first glance, this seems like an attempt at making a silly character (though I could be wrong) and would take a lot of explaining and good back story to let myself allow this in a more serious game. If I were doing a more loose and silly kind of game, I'd be down with it.
Just make sure you let him know that it has nothing to do with stifling his creativity or forcing him into a role he doesn't want to play. No point in having a player hate you right from character creation.
Actually, to me it doesn't seem that bad. Vows can be dropped if it isn't working out well. The two curses come with benefits that help to outweigh their weaknesses. I can see some ways to optimize around the concept with some feats and as Mergy pointed out Deaf kinda helps out with the Vow of Silence.
Depending on the role that this type of character is going to play I don't see it as being a big hindrence to the party. By later levels it could even be pretty effective. Especially if he gives the enemies the same disabilities he has without it's advantages (blindness/deafness, fog spells, silence spell, etc.). The Vow isn't a big deal really, and the trick with the curses is to make them work for you, not against you. The player may have a plan for this.
If the situation were in my hands I would go over with the player what the potential consequences would be of their decision. This is, of course, assuming that the player doesn't already understand them. If they do (either from personal knowledge or after speaking with them about it) I would let the decision be in the player's hands. Unless the other players speak up that they wouldn't want to adventure with this character either out of character or preferably in character then I wouldn't step in to make the decision for them. I would also make it clear to everyone that you do not plan on pulling punches or handicapping encounters down to compensate for a weak PC.
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I'd prefer the GM nixed another players ridonkulous idea rather than have my game time wasted whilst X player works out the idea is really stupid - meaning we have to not only carry his share of the load, but to have him using up game time unproductively.
Its really in no-ones interest to let some things (like the above) slide.
Inclusivity still has to have some boundaries.
There's a spell called Oracle's Curse that gives your enemies the negative effects of your curse, but not the benefits... I wonder if that would apply for a double cursed Oracle? If so, that player may be a damned skilled minmaxer waiting to turn the tables on you.
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If I was a party member of this guy, I would do this completely in character:
"Wait, we're storming a dragon's lair, and you want to bring a blind deaf guy? Are you crazy? Let's take him to a temple for his own safety and pick up someone who isn't horribly handicapped."
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Why disallow? He will most likely tire of it quickly.
Every time he responds to something he heard or said, tell him he can't.
No metagame.
After a few times of you telling him "nope, ya heard nothin'" and "nope, ya see nothin'", and "nope, no one understands you", he will tire.
Do tell him to have a back-up character handy. For his sake.
Why disallow? He will most likely tire of it quickly.
Every time he responds to something he heard or said, tell him he can't.
No metagame.
After a few times of you telling him "nope, ya heard nothin'" and "nope, ya see nothin'", and "nope, no one understands you", he will tire.Do tell him to have a back-up character handy. For his sake.
I'd rather politely nix it at character creation. Wastes less time and avoids hard feelings between the GM and the player.
Also depending on level, he is not as helpless as you think:
Clouded Vision:
Effect You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.
At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.
At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.
At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.
Deaf
You cannot hear and suffer all of the usual penalties for being deafened. You cast all of your spells as if they were modified by the Silent Spell feat. This does not increase their level or casting time.
At 5th level, you receive a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks that do not rely upon hearing, and the initiative penalty for being deaf is reduced to –2.
At 10th level, you gain scent and you do not suffer any penalty on initiative checks due to being deaf.
At 15th level, you gain tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet.
Also depending on level, he is not as helpless as you think:....
True but the concept seems so contrarion that I have to assume he is playing an archer
I can't help but feel that this concept would be interesting, especially with the spell Oracle's Burden if the DM ruled that it would apply both curses (as the spell says curse, but makes no mention of what would happen if an oracle had two curses via the archetype).
You see a 10 foot pit, do you try to jump across? Oh, I guess being blind means you are a poor judge of distances... AHHHHHHHHH (Character falling to their death). Yes, waste of people's time.
Your echolation was not high enough.
This reminds me of years ago, when one player took a blind fighting monk. He had a low end magic item to compensate, but was truly blind beyond 80 (all those advertisements he never saw). Anyway, he kept going on and on how cool he was, so alas, this player cut away all those hp, through all that nice ac with a greatsword fighter called Siegfried. We were lowish level, he had the magic item, and I had full plate and a good sword. Hur hur hur hur.
Anyway, not all character concepts a player thinks are great should be at a table with others.
Let him do it if the other players really don't mind. I would tell him that he will not get preferential treatment though.
If you think the other players will give in to peer pressure then ask them privately.
Some people just have to learn the hard way.
isn't clouded vision of an oracle replaced by some kind of echolocation, which can't be used when deaf?
From a flavour point of view this character is going to be bad.
On the other hand tell him that the character will probably not live through a session and if he's okay with that, and the other characters are okay with having him in the party, then it's all fine.
I can't see however how an adventuring party would put up with that.
The clouded vision text does eventually grant blindsense but that is not necessarily echolocation. Blindsense does not specify what type of sense is used. Blindsight does state that it can be anything ranging from vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation.
- Gauss
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The main problem with 'deaf, dumb, and mostly blind' is that the game will only penalize his communication and perception. It could result in death, such as from an event that specifically requires some perception, but it probably wont. It is a social annoyance rather than a death warrant. In fact, his lack of communication may be more of a hinderance to everyone else than himself. That is the real problem here. In roleplay, as a group I would simply not accept such a character into the group.
- Gauss
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I think you guys are making this out to be a bigger deal than it is.
For a dual cursed oracle one gets better. Both of them eventually get things better than sight at a limited range ; tremorsense for deaf, blindsight for clouded vision. So either choice would be good for improvement.
Via the PFS FAQ he can read lips if within 10' with rank in lingusics. He could always write on a chalk board to convey ideas to bypass the vow of silence.
Maybe the player isn't that social at the table anyway and doesn't like being put on the spot. so this gives them advantages to playing the same way they were normally going to play due to shyness.
Dungeon corridors and room walls are often easily within the vision radius of the clouded curse.
If this player has a buddy at the table they could walk with the player and help direct him. (the player can read lips).
The player could focus on buffing, melee, healing, or whatever he'd be effective at within the clouded vision range (30 or 60').
the dual cursed oracle gets two bonus revelations at 5 and 13, access to two additional revelations, and can give their oracle curse (no benefits) to the enemies. As has been mentioned before.
I believe there is a helm of telepathy to help with the communication, or some 11th level oracle lores give telepathy. I think telepathy can be gained from eldrich heritage too.
Once enhanced senses are gained, the character could just close his eyes and still function exceptionally well against creatures with gaze attacks.
I've also looked at a build like this before. I think it could be very strong.
(I would be more thorough with references but I'm on a mobile phone)
Interesting Gauss, I have only heard good stories of when a party would say hell no, to a new member. It is such a hilarious situation, proving the power of a group over a player and the dm.
So he can't see (beyond a few feet), he can't hear, he can't talk.
Sounds good for a solo campaign but not so much one where there are other folks.
He sees a monster, but can't tell anyone about it. He rolls a knowledge check but can't tell anyone what he knows.
He just got stabbed in the back by a rogue but can't let anyone know it happened. He gets singled out from teh group and can't yell for help. The group has a 20 second bull session before rushing the double doors into the BBEG's room and he can't hear them and can't give input.
I mean, dang.. I'm all for folks getting to play what they want to play but at some point you have to ask yourself if you are a bigger burden and liability to the group than you are a boon.
This guy needs to be left on the temple steps, not taken into the depths of the world where the ability to see, hear, and communicate are not just handy but down right required. What's this guy do in the dark to communicate? Tapdance? Lights go out and he can't even say "oh crap".
I mean, I guess a table could make it work if everyone really wanted to but it'd be alot of work for everyone involved for not much gain aside from letting Bob play some weird concept.
I wouldn't tell the PC "no, cuz i said so" but I'd have a good discussion with him/her about just exactly what the rules allow and don't allow, and whether or not the Group is going to allow this person to tag along.
It's their decision too, afterall.
-S
How do you discourage a player who adamantly wants to play a monk/oracle with a Vow of Silence and the Deaf and Clouded Vision curses?
If you were to let them play it, have that character have to pay to hire a helper/cohort from his share of spoils.
Or, have the blind and deaf monk/oracle as a back-up (Maybe a follower who the main character couldn't abandon).
The character can come in at a later time, maybe explained as 'he was at camp,receiving training from ascended masters.'