EL, complete agreement.
Atarlost, I disagree. A CE PC usually splits the party because his goals and methods in no way correspond to the rest of the party's. A deaf-mute PC (who meets Evil Lincoln's challenge) only provides an RP challenge.
It isn't hard to think up a CE PC which could mesh with a good or neutral party. I'll give you an example Stabby Mcmurderclown is a CE Human Rogue/Assassin he's evil because he murders people for a living and kinda enjoys it but he doesn't really care who he murders as long as he makes a buck and while he's chaotic and is only really interested in his personal freedom he's also not stupid so he's trying to avoid unnecessary trouble with the law while he does his murdering.
Stabby realizes this group of chumps is just the thing he needs, by travelling around with them he is given ample opportunity to slit throats without running afoul of the law and the pay is better than anything else he could get unless he were to begin killing other adventurers(which is very risky, after all money is great but only as long as you're alive to spend it) furthermore due to all the travelling he's less likely to arouse suspicion when he kills the odd tavern wench or uppity street thug.
For the party Stabby is clearly bloodthirsty and ruthless but on the otherhand he does his job, as far as they know he isn't stealing from them, and he has their backs in a fight(mostly because backstabbing your allies runs the high risk of you fighting whoever lives or possibly having to fight both your former allies and whomever they were fighting as well but that's besides the point) they don't hear of how he roughs up the shopkeepers whom he's selling goods to because he wears a good disguise and if a whore dies in town once in a while well that's not a very odd thing in the grand scheme of things anyways.
Is Stabby the best fit with a Paladin, a Cleric, and a Monk, no of course not but in your average party say a Fighter a Sorcerer and a Oracle he'd...
The groups I've been in have all had alignment restrictions.. so it would depend on that restriction.
If the rule is "No evil PC's" then no, I wouldn't.
if the rule was "don't be a jerk, but anything else goes" then sure why not?
If all the other PC's were good though then it'd prolly be best advices that the player of Stabby shelve that character idea and bring someone at least neutral if not good though since his drives and goals will conflict with those of the group.
(just like if everyone's rolled up a group of McStabbies and someone comes in wanting a paladin, he should probably table that idea and roll up a McStabby)
-S
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I have actually played a deaf mute in a game once in a campaign that also had a guy playing a blind healer and I have to say that after a session or so it gets really old. Even if you have something to add to a conversation you can't as you first have to get people's attention without saying anything. Honestly if my DM had just said no to it at the beginning of the campaign I think I would have had a much better time.
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Alright, I gotta speak up. And I do not mean this in any kind of malicious way. However, there is so much willful ignorance going on in this thread that it borders on the offensive.
A disadvantage that is not disadvantageous does not accrue benefits.
This is untrue. Using real world examples like those who lose their vision have their other senses more accutely heightened isn't needed. In actual game terms this is the whole point of an Oracle. They get curses that cause them a disadvantage but over time grants them a great advantage.
This really speaks back to what I was saying before. I think too many people think that the curses that the character is choosing are a complete disadvantage. They are not. The character is not completely blind and in fact can see better than other characters within a minimum of 30ft. The same goes for their deafness. These disadvantages create an advantage.
How do you contribute? You cant talk so you don't add to discussions.
Untrue. Don't believe me? Go ask any mute person. Reading lips is a game mechanic and there are many ways to communicate other than speaking (sign language, writing and telepathy all come to mind).
You cant hear either so your just the guy that stands in the corner during RP.
Incorrect again. Just because the character can not hear does not mean that they need to stand in the corner during RP. For that matter, neither does the player.
The character wont just hinder the players fun. It will hinder the other players fun also.
That is a very close-minded and selfish approach, IMO. The other players haven't even raised a concern from what I understand so no one even knows what their opinion is on the matter. Not everyone is as close-minded as you, though. Some people enjoy the variety of RP that is brought to the table. This type of character would not hinder my fun either if I played him or had them in the party. In fact, I think it could be a fairly effective character.
A character that I literally have to write everything down for in game.
Untrue again. Why would you have to write everything down for them? Please see my first response.
character that is almost blind to boot so he is almost zero help as a scout.... He cant see or hear whats ahead nor can he communicate anything if he did... unless he pulls out a piece of chalk or a pin, ink, blotter, paper.... its just ridiculous.
Untrue again. First of all the character is not "almost blind". Within 30ft. (later 60') the character can see as well if not better than you or I. In fact, later on he can see better. Read the rules, its all there. Clouded Vision is not blind. I wish people would stop equating it to that because it is simply not true.
Ignoring the metagame aspect of this character ever getting to leave the temple (no adventuring party with two brains cells even occasionally colliding would ever bring the guy along in the first place), the guy really is a hindrance to the group.
Actually in real life there are several religions that honor those with disabilities as closer to god. Although real life doesn't really apply to a fantasy setting with such things as magic to overcome such obstacles. The curses all give benefits that eventually outweigh the hindrence that they give. The Dual Cursed Oracle is no exception. In fact, I would wish for this person to go out into the world and gain power and prestige for the temple.
They can't do things like change tactics in mid battle or be warned as the battle goes on about something.. because they can't hear you talk.
This is not the only way that they can be warned as noted above.
He can't hear the bad guy talking he can't hear the good guy's warnings and he dang well better get the infravision because if not, he's worse than useless in the dark.
It is clear you are either not paying attention, haven't read the thread or are just being willfully ignorant. They get darkvision. They can see better than anyone else within 60'. Not worse. Just think of the possibilities if they use darkness or fog type effects to their advantage! Sheesh, stop being so closed minded and think outside the box.
The deafness curse borders on auto-ban anyway (at least to me, I understand other tables will vary) but combining it with someone who can't see and refuses to talk and what you have is a very unfortunate temple clergy man or something. Not an adventurer.
Again, you are stating things that are untrue. The character is NOT blind. He can see.
But refuse to acknowledge the severe hindrance this guy is to the party?
And what about you? You are refusing to aknowledge that the character can even see much less the actual advantages he gets for his curses and Vow.
I'm not really sure how many levels such a player would take. I think we've already shown that they are somewhat illogical/unpredictable from the start.
I agree with ciretose. I don't think this has been shown from what you have said. I think we need to know more about the player's plans to make that kind of judgement. I, for one, can see this type of character as being highly effective.
Aside from the (apprently not so) obvious benefits that the character brings he is immune to any sound based effects. And if he closes his eyes he isn't at as large of a detriment as most characters are to sight based effects. That is a pretty broad spectrum of abilities right there but also take into consideration that the character is able to fight in pretty common environments that other characters are greatly hindered in. I think it just takes an open mind to see the possibilities that such a character can bring to the table.
You know, I think this character would be a lot cooler if he were also:
1.) A halfling.
2.) Aged (venerable).
3.) Low Intelligence (dump stat).
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For S&Gs...no equipment, (WBL is 62k), most feats blank...
10th Human (5 monk/5 oracle) level 20 point buy
Str 16 (15+1)
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16 (15+1)
Cha 12
AC 15 (+3 wis, +1 monk, +1 dodge)
HP 45
Movement: 40
Ref: 7 Fort: 7 Will: 11
Attack= +10/+5 (Flurry +10/+10+5) Stunning fist (1d8+3)
Feats:
1st Toughness
(human)
(monk) dodge
2nd (Monk)Improved Grapple
3rd
5th
7th
Monk abilities
Evasion, Maneuver mastery, ki pool (6), purity of body
Revelations (Misfortune)
Spells:
0- (pick 6)
1- Cure light, Magic weapons (monks hands work), Shield of Faith, Ill Omens
2- Darkness,(pick one), Mystery spell...
Obviously everything would go up significantly with equipment.
Can see out to 60 feet at this point, casts silent spells. I would guess some quiggong will come into play for swap outs.
Seems viable to me.
Also depending on level, he is not as helpless as you think:
Clouded Vision:
Effect You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.
At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.
At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.
At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.Deaf
You cannot hear and suffer all of the usual penalties for being deafened. You cast all of your spells as if they were modified by the Silent Spell feat. This does not increase their level or casting time.
At 5th level, you receive a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks that do not rely upon hearing, and the initiative penalty for being deaf is reduced to –2.
At 10th level, you gain scent and you do not suffer any penalty on initiative checks due to being deaf.
At 15th level, you gain tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet.
iirc, dual cursed only advances 1 of the curses, not both. that is why it is pretty darn risky to take dual cursed even though it gives some really cool powers.
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Flat out deny the deaf curse and vow of silence. Communication is important. You can have everyone spare a point of linguistics for the tongues curse, but there are no workarounds for deafness or vow of silence.
When you add that clouded vision prevents you from reading lips or understanding sign language from any distance this concept is dead on arrival.
Spend a point of linguistics, buy sign language.
Honestly the character isn't that bad. Definitely not a fully optimized build, but not horrible either. It's not like hes playing an Magus/Paladin aiming for Mystic theurge(I had to deal with this recently).
Alright, I gotta speak up. And I do not mean this in any kind of malicious way. However, there is so much willful ignorance going on in this thread that it borders on the offensive.
You know how someone says "No disrespect but...". And then says something disrespectful. Yeah you just did that after saying you didnt mean to come across as malicious and then proceed to call people with differing opinions ignorant. Just saying.
A disadvantage that is not disadvantageous does not accrue benefits.This is untrue. Using real world examples like those who lose their vision have their other senses more accutely heightened isn't needed. In actual game terms this is the whole point of an Oracle. They get curses that cause them a disadvantage but over time grants them a great advantage.
Yes over time they get better. But starting out he has no real advantage. Mostly just the disadvantages.
How do you contribute? You cant talk so you don't add to discussions.Untrue. Don't believe me? Go ask any mute person. Reading lips is a game mechanic and there are many ways to communicate other than speaking (sign language, writing and telepathy all come to mind).
I understand you can lipread. I also know that when a group of say... 4 people plus an NPC or two start talking lip reading gets real difficult. Saying "O he can just lipread and sign" doesn't really explain away the real disadvantages to being both deaf and mute. O and saying something is "untrue" when dealing with something that doesn't have a definitive answer doesn't help your point.
Incorrect again. Just because the character can not hear does not mean that they need to stand in the corner during RP. For that matter, neither does the player.You cant hear either so your just the guy that stands in the corner during RP.
I don't believe I ever said the player had to stand in the corner (Though that would be kind of funny). In game again he would contribute very little because he will have a near impossible time keeping up with a group discussion and then conveying his opinion.
The character wont just hinder the players fun. It will hinder the other players fun also.That is a very close-minded and selfish approach, IMO. The other players haven't even raised a concern from what I understand so no one even knows what their opinion is on the matter. Not everyone is as close-minded as you, though. Some people enjoy the variety of RP that is brought to the table. This type of character would not hinder my fun either if I played him or had or had them in the party. In fact, I think it could be a fairly effective character.
I do believe I said if I where playing in the game. And if you think Im close minded because I think that playing sherades while RPing sounds less then fun... so be it. It sounds like a horrible idea. As a DM or a player I wouldn't want to deal with it. You think it would be effective. Ok... thats good for you. If you take this forum as a sample of the player base then about half of the group disagrees with you. Meaning it will more then likely negativly effect the fun of a few of the players... We already KNOW that the DM isnt on board so the fact that "You" like it really doesn't matter. The DM wasn't asking if his build was ok... he was asking for advice on how to dissuade him.
A character that I literally have to write everything down for in game.Untrue again. Why would you have to write everything down for them? Please see my first response.
Unless the party takes sign any time he wants to convey more then simple messages he would need to write down what he was thinking. I don't see how that can be argued against. Simply expecting the party to invest in learning sign is also a tall order imo.
character that is almost blind to boot so he is almost zero help as a scout.... He cant see or hear whats ahead nor can he communicate anything if he did... unless he pulls out a piece of chalk or a pin, ink, blotter, paper.... its just ridiculous.Untrue again. First of all the character is not "almost blind". Within 30ft. (later 60') the character can see as well if not better than you or I. In fact, later on he can see better. Read the rules, its all there. Clouded Vision is not blind. I wish people would stop equating it to that because it is simply not true.
There is that Untrue thing again. hmmm. And wow... now I need to read the rules. Yes your doing a wonderful job of not coming across as malicious. Anyways. If you Re-Read what I wrote. I said almost. Almost blind. And we aren't talking about later. Im talking about the start of the game. At the start he cant see past 30ft. That is almost blind. So people are equating him to being blind because in game mechanics he is very close to being so. Will he walk into walls... no. Will he see whats at the end of the hall, or where the archers are firing from... probably not. And he has no way to hear them either. Every ranged enemy beyond 30 ft are effectively invisible to him. Dont worry though. He can run up to an ally in the middle of combat... sign "Where do I find the archers!", and then stare intently waiting to lip read.
I mean really? Are you TRYING to ignore the issues this build presents in combat?
Im not going to get into a flame war. I have expressed my opinion. I have given my advice. I would suggest that next time you wish to come off as less then malicious you might try to use less inflammatory responses. Calling someone close minded, telling them their opinion is untrue, and suggesting they read the rules comes across as exactly that.
snipped
Unfortunately the forum trunks posts so its difficult for me to reply line by line to you as you did to me. So, I'm not going to. I'm also not all that snazzy with the codes to do what you did. :)
We in *our* society treat the disabled much differently than they would in a mediveal society where groups of people took up arms and went out into the wilderness to do battle.
If you want to talk real life- how many people who are completely deaf and who can't see past 30 feet are given a gun and sent off into battle for the nation's armed forces?
Sure, some religious group may see them as closer to god or whatnot- and I'm not even against that in game at all, i did recommend they stay in the temple afterall- but closer to god and closer to the dragon you are trying to fight (that they might not even be able to /see/ depending on whether they took deafness or blindness as their primary curse) is an entirely different thing.
Existing in the game world =/= adviseable to take out with you into the wilderness to fight bad guys.
I never said they couldn't see, i said they couldn't /hear/. Deafness is by far the greater problem than the blindness. Even if you don't take blind as your primary curse at least you can see 30 feet out or whatever. You are deaf as a post though regardless.
Yes, you do get some bonuses for /one/ of the two curses and someone who can't talk isn't automatically a problem.
But someone who can't see beyond 30 feet and is deaf as a post and refuses to talk is pretty much just asking to be left at the temple.
Or would be asking- if he could bother to talk. Which he can't, without breaking his vow.
Again, I'm not saying that the DM should tell the guy "absolutely not ever no". I'm saying, this is a discussion for the entire group to have on the subject to see if everyone is willing to take on this /burden/. Because its going to be a burden and will require the group to act substantially differently than they otherwise would. It'll require someone to stay with the character and make sure they hear "head's up" as they happen in combat and without and to make sure that someone always has their proverbial eye on the guy. If the group /isn't/ willing to do this then the character is going to die and just end up frustrated anyway.
Groups do work together but folks are generally assumed to be independent in that no one requires a baby sitter just to attend.
This character requires a baby sitter. Its going to require group cooperation and evne then it'll be a pain in the tail- as those who have actually done this or something similar can and have attested to in this thread.
If someone was severely visually impaired, was deaf, and either couldn't or wouldn't talk would I refuse to deal with or interact with them? Not at all.
Would I have serious reservations about taking them into a goblin, orc, or dragon infested forest with me? Abso freaking lutely.
-S
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Alright, I gotta speak up. And I do not mean this in any kind of malicious way. However, there is so much willful ignorance going on in this thread that it borders on the offensive.
A disadvantage that is not disadvantageous does not accrue benefits.This is untrue. Using real world examples like those who lose their vision have their other senses more accutely heightened isn't needed. In actual game terms this is the whole point of an Oracle. They get curses that cause them a disadvantage but over time grants them a great advantage.
For me, this is a fundamental principal of character creation. (Back in GURPS it was a rule.) If you take a disadvantage that is not *actually* disadvantageous in any way, you don't get the associated advantage which is supposed to compensate.
But I should also make it clear that I was *not* talking about the Oracle's curses. Those are very well defined, and I don't have any problems with them.
What *I* was talking about was that I would not give the ki benefits from Vow of Silence to a deaf character who did not speak normally before taking the Vow, because the Vow would be meaningless. Similarly, I would not allow a Monk wearing a Ring of Sustenance to gain the ki benefits from a Vow of Fasting. Or a blind Oracle to take the Clouded Vision curse.
We in *our* society treat the disabled much differently than they would in a mediveal society
I actually stopped reading what you said right there. As someone pointed out in another thread (can't remember the name, but it was the thread about how slavery related to alignment), this is not a medieval fantasy game. This is a fantasy game with modern ideals set in a period with medieval technology. As such, slavery is generally thought of as wrong, as are many other kinds of criminal punishment and the like that were perfectly acceptable in medieval times.
So, using modern ideals applied to a fantasy world with medieval technology, as long as the person has some way to get around the disadvantage (such as magical bonuses granted by an oracle's curse), they should be, by and large, accepted into many professions and potentially encouraged to go out and do things that would otherwise be considered impossible by someone with that particular disadvantage.
What *I* was talking about was that I would not give the ki benefits from Vow of Silence to a deaf character who did not speak normally before taking the Vow, because the Vow would be meaningless. Similarly, I would not allow a Monk wearing a Ring of Sustenance to gain the ki benefits from a Vow of Fasting. Or a blind Oracle to take the Clouded Vision curse.
Honestly, I think I'd allow the last one, since they don't get anything useful until 10th level (I would certainly rule that the darkvision doesn't work). Unless you're starting there, it's basically just flavor, and even after that, they can't see anything past 30'. That's still a pretty hefty disadvantage, unless everything you have them fight is always within that range. Also, they can't read (such as trying to use a map or read a sign). In which case, I'd wonder why you have everything that close in the first place. The other two examples? I totally agree with you.
You know how someone says "No disrespect but...". And then says something disrespectful. Yeah you just did that after saying you didnt mean to come across as malicious and then proceed to call people with differing opinions ignorant. Just saying.
So what your saying is that even though I managed to say things in as respectful of a way as I could muster that your going to go ahead and take offense. *shrug* Go ahead. When the facts are pointed out to someone and they basically deny them with a "nuh uh" I can't think of a sugar coated way to say "wilfully ignorant".
Yes over time they get better. But starting out he has no real advantage. Mostly just the disadvantages.
Point and case. Even though it has been repeatedly pointed out this is simply not true. Go read the rules. Clouded vision gives you darkvision. Deaf gives you silent spell without increasing the spell level. Right from the get go you get advantages and disadvantages. And as you continue through levels you get MORE advantages.
I understand you can lipread. I also know that when a group of say... 4 people plus an NPC or two start talking lip reading gets real difficult. Saying "O he can just lipread and sign" doesn't really explain away the real disadvantages to being both deaf and mute. O and saying something is "untrue" when dealing with something that doesn't have a definitive answer doesn't help your point.
You said that because he can't talk he can't add to discussions. This is untrue. I exemplified one reason among many that it is untrue.
And if you think Im close minded because I think that playing sherades while RPing sounds less then fun... so be it.
This makes no sense. So just because the character is deaf, mute and has poor eyesight you are going to force the player to act deaf, mute and as if they had poor eyesight? Do you force players to act like their characters at the table? What a hectic table that must be. I'd think it would be easier for the player to say something like, "I sign to them that I agree with the plan." rather than making the actual player learn sign language.
Unless the party takes sign any time he wants to convey more then simple messages he would need to write down what he was thinking. I don't see how that can be argued against. Simply expecting the party to invest in learning sign is also a tall order imo.
There are a lot of ways to communicate outside of sign language. Especially for those with magic items and spells that can grant telepathy and communication other non-verbal levels.
There is that Untrue thing again. hmmm. And wow... now I need to read the rules. Yes your doing a wonderful job of not coming across as malicious.
I said untrue because what you said was untrue. Is it malicious to point out an untruth? I don't control your emotions, bud, but if you choose to take offense to that then so be it. Thats on you. I don't need to re-read what you wrote. I quoted you and quoted you again in my reply. I said that you said, "almost blind". And you did not specify that you had been talking about "at the start of the game". Even so, the character has better vision within 30' than you do. I hardly would call that "almost blind" much less "very close to being so".
I mean really? Are you TRYING to ignore the issues this build presents in combat?
No. I'm thinking outside the box and coming up with creative ways to work around them. Something that the player in question is presumably doing as well.
Im not going to get into a flame war. I have expressed my opinion. I have given my advice. I would suggest that next time you wish to come off as less then malicious you might try to use less inflammatory responses. Calling someone close minded, telling them their opinion is untrue, and suggesting they read the rules comes across as exactly that.
You are being close-minded when someone points out that the facts about what you said are untrue. I would never tell someone that their opinions are wrong. Stating to read the rules when someone clearly doesn't understand them is good advice. I'm not sorry for anything I have said, but if you took offense to it... well, I'm sorry you chose to take offense to it. Your choice though, I guess.
Selgard: I didn't tear your post apart line by line. I took out 5 lines from it. I would recommend reading what I wrote because in the post I quoted you had things dead wrong. You said he can't be warned about things mid-battle which is untrue. You said he is worse than useless in the dark which couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, he is better in the dark than most other characters. You said he "can't see" which is untrue and in fact can see better than other characters in many circumstances.
Again, I'm not saying that the DM should tell the guy "absolutely not ever no".
Oh. Then perhaps I misunderstood you when you said, "The deafness curse borders on auto-ban anyway..." Cause see... to me "auto-ban" = "absolutely not ever no". Am I wrong?
pH unbalanced: What you are talking about is a house rule. IMO, it goes against the spirit of the rules. I could forsee a clan of monks who have taken a Vow of Silence and agreed to never make a verbal sound as it is against their religion or something. They aren't against communication in any other sense, just simply verbal communication. Telepathic communication is just fine as it doesn't have any verbal component and does not break their Vow. In fact, I could see them holding telepathic communication in very high regard. The fact that the character is a Dual Cursed Oracle and is built on the principles of gaining a benefit for having a disability (much like Daredevil, Stick, etc) only serves to further my opinion on this.
How boooooring can that be? An RPG where a player is not allowed to say anything? Except for out of game stuff?
Let him play such a character, and if he talks to the other players about in-game stuff, his vow of silence is broken.
What about talking to that guy? Other characters can't just walk up to that deaf guy and tell him anything. Okay, maybe he's reading lips - but in combat the other characters might be more than 30ft away, or just not able to face him.
Let him play, be bored, get on the other players' nerves and fail.
I just don't get this. Why are people equating the PLAYER talking about in-game stuff to the CHARACTER talking about stuff? Are you all LARPing when you play Pathfinder?