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With regards to the food, that's why I prefer a "bring your own snacks/drinks" policy for gaming. Then you don't have to worry about who paid whom, or whether someone is getting more than their fair share, etc.
The swearing thing I don't have much to say about. Maybe you should get more practice in not swearing.
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Yeah here's the thing and this is pretty cut and dry.
If youre a guest in someone's home? Follow the rules of that home. Especially if they were laid out in advance.
I dont know about the rest of you but rolling up in my house and just helping yourself to my food and drink after being told NOT TO is cause alone for getting the boot. It's not overreacting. It's' just damn RUDE.
If they ask you not to curse and you're like "what's the big deal we're all adults"? The big deal is that they dont like cursing or being subjected to cursing. You, being a guest in THIER HOME dont get to dictate to them what's cool and what's not. If you feel the need to curse despite then then you can GTFO.
Also if youre partaking of the food and snacks and not paying your share CONSISTENTLY then youre a leech. If you know when you go to a game that people chip in for snacks and you've been attending this game for the better part of a year? Unless there's a financial hardship? You need to make sure that you have money in your wallet to contribute. Missing it every now and then is totally understandable. Everyone has that time where youre strapped for cash or forgot to hit up the ATM before the game. But if it's consistent? youre being a leech and a jerk.
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If you wish to get things back to ground zero with these people, and even if you dont wanr to at least undue any damage you did to the GM's reputation... YOU have to pay them back.
Yes. The classy thing to do would be to drop them a note with a $20, in which you apologize for your forgetfulness and wish them happy gaming in the future.
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...So, the reasons cited were:
1. Forgot to pay my share for Pizza.
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2. I was not chipping in for snacks.
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3. Drinking the host's milk....
4. Cursing.
1. If you didn't chip in, don't partake of the grub.
2. See 1.3. Always ask. Even if the first time they were fine with it.
4. Cursing. If you were asked once, then it shouldn't have to be asked a second time.
Rules for my group:
1. Whoever is hosting the game allows the use of glasses, utensils, and other eating implements, use of toilet, unlimited water. Guests are still expected to ask for permission, as a courtesy and to be respectful of spouses/significant others.
2. The Host does not have to chip in for grub (we rotate from session to session who hosts the group).
3. Guests who don't chip in for grub DO NOT partake of grub.
4. Bring your own snacks.
5. No cursing. We all have kids.
Failing any of these will get you kicked to the curb.
Personally, it sucks you got booted, however I'd say you were a poor guest. It has always been my understanding that as a guest, while the Host has certain expectations about providing a friendly, welcoming environment, the burden is on the guest to be overly polite while being a guest, EVEN when it is someone hosting that you've known for years and have developed a close friendship. I'd have booted.
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OP, whatever you did was apparently bad enough to get you booted. Whether you think they were overreacting is irrelevant; it happened, so obviously it was bad enough.
Honestly, the fact that even after having something so bold and alarming as getting kicked out of a game happens to you, you still ponder whether or not you did anything wrong "enough," is in itself rather alarming.
Everyone has different standards. What's acceptable in one home, could be blasphemous in another. When you are a guest in someone else's home, your standards of right and wrong come secondary to the hosts, period.
I've been in your situation. I've been kicked out of bands, kicked out of games, kicked out of friendship circles, the works. My first response was "wth? I wasn't THAT bad..." but it didn't matter. I was bad enough. Once I was made aware of all the feelings I had been inadvertently trampling on, I took more consideration of those around me, and have had tremendously better results ever since. Some of those old band members who fired me before, have since joined MY band, for instance.
The host of the event/location sets the standard for decency, not the guest. A good host will take a guest's expectations into consideration, but in the end, the Host is in charge.
Instead of trying to find some way to pin the blame on your previous hosts, you should be taking steps to correct your errors so that it doesn't happen again. Get a feel for what is acceptable and expected from your next host, and do your best to stick to it.
Well, if there's one thing I got out of this thread, it's that it helped me decide that I was indeed not guilty, since I know the internet has a penchant for giving people the freedom to act overly viscous when tearing into other people.
The fact alone that you were booted from a game says you were "guilty." Period. Accept that, correct your errors, and try to do better next time.
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I never read the replies in these type of threads, do excuse me if this has been said, though I'm sure it has. If you're asked not to curse in my home, and you do, you're out. If you don't pay your way, you'd better make up for it somehow. IF YOU TAKE SOMETHING YOU WERE TOLD NOT TO, YOU'RE OUT IMMEDIATELY. You saying, they said no and I did it anyway, because I don't respect their feelings on the matter, shows whet a awful guest you were, without a doubt.
Yes, you were a bad guest who deserved the boot, because your own statement shows you did not respect the opinions and feeling s of you host. Asking if you were bad enough is splitting hairs and shows deep down you know it.
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I spell and grammar good on my smart phone
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I think that their may be more here then your being told, none of those things seem "bad enough" in themselves, but they may have felt it was an easier let down then the dealing with the direct issue.
The issue may be just one of clashing personalities and play styles. That isn't to to make a value statement or judgement of yours, but some types of people don't mix well, and if you are an exuberant, or assertive person you may not even realize a class is occurring. Which is to say your not doing anything overtly to offend or bug people, but something just isn't meshing in the group.
As for your actions, they are rude, not like OMFG I H8 THAT GUY rude, but they are social elbows on the table. Money matters can especially push peoples buttons. The thing is to do, especially with the Pizza money is to make bloody well sure that if you forget to pay one week, you damn well pay the next time you see those people. Being overt and apologetic, like as you sit to game, the first thing you do before your dice hit the table is hand over the money and clearly call yourself out "Guys, sorry I forgot pizza money last week, here's what I owe you" (this is not a good time to dither over pennies, if the tab was 5.87 a person, cough up $6.)
If you drink milk, and were explicitly asked to stop, you should make a point of bringing your own. And if you forget, don't assume it is now okay, even if you left extra last time. If your in someone else house, the fridge and pantry are out of bounds without asking.
I think this situation is salvageable, but an offering of peace may be in order, like by offering to pick up the whole pizza tab.
As for the cursing, cut it out.
Or if all of this seems like to much bother, go find another group who accepts you as you are.
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The cursing was an unrealistic expectation nobody doesn't curse at all unless they're insane or something of the sort and then they sub in those stupid cutesy curses like Ned Flanders.
Not true. It's perfectly possible to never swear. I know several people who do so. It just takes a bit of self-control.
More importantly, if you're in the house of someone who's asked you not to, you should try even harder to put a rein on how you talk. It's their house, their rules.
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Not swearing is all about discipline. It's easy to vocalize pain without swearing. Example.
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And when you crack your head on a door or stub your toe you don't curse? Because I doubt it and even if you do it shouldn't be considered the norm.
Not true.
No, I usually just make a wordless noise. (EDIT: Ninja'd with example by TOZ. Thanks.)
Personally I view swearing as a sign of immaturity, or as TOZ said a lack of personal discipline and self-control. It's sad that it's not the norm to not swear, but hey what can you do.
The point being, however, that he's in someone else's home and should respect their wishes. When your host says "please don't do this" and you do it anyway, why should you be surprised when you're not invited to return?
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WOPAH! *ninja flipout*
Personally I view swearing as a sign of immaturity, or as TOZ said a lack of personal discipline and self-control. It's sad that it's not the norm to not swear, but hey what can you do.
While it can be a sign of immaturity, a mature person can choose to swear when appropriate.
I went out to dinner with a civilian friend, and a couple of my military coworkers were at the bar. We sat down with them and chatted for awhile. When they left, my friend looked at my wife and said 'I have never heard Steve swear that much before.' It was an interesting example of how different social situations make you react differently.
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Not true.And when you crack your head on a door or stub your toe you don't curse? Because I doubt it and even if you do it shouldn't be considered the norm.
As an aside I don't really see why people are so concerned about their children learning curses, they're going to learn them eventually and as long as you raise them properly it's not like that knowledge will affect them negatively.
The point is that they are MY children in MY home.
If I ask you not to swear around them then you have 2 simple choices.
1. Don't swear around them.
2. Don't play in my home.
However in anwser to the OP.
You gamed 3 times in one year, you paid for food on none of those times.
It is not my job to track you down or remind you of a 5$ debt.
If you can't respect the group enough to toss in for pizza then thats a problem.
Honestly tho, the milk thing would have gotten you tossed from my home group.
if you ask to drink some milk and I say "sure, go for it" as I would, thats great, glad you enjoy the milk.
HOWEVER, if I ask you not to drink my milk for whatever reason, then you do it anyway? Please let me show you where to find the door.
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I feel both a little guilty and a little wronged here, personally I'm more upset on principle than anything else, the campaign was just feeling...tedious? I don't know, but I wasn't really having a lot of fun and just went as something to do, so I don't care as badly about being forced out as I possibly could be. Maybe my apathy contributed to my poor behavior?
CommandoDude, considering the list of things you were accused of doing, I am surprised you are the one who feels "wronged". If you were unhappy with the quality of the game, then you should have talked with the GM directly about it. Using your "apathy" as an excuse for your behavior is pretty sad... accept responsibility for not contributing for food and ignoring your hosts' desire for you not to freely partake of their home's food. If you don't, odds are you will violate similar rules (spoken or unspoken) in your next gaming group. (And one more additional bit of advise, be aware of how *much* food you consume- I have had people who think nothing of polishing off entire bags of snacks, entire blocks of cheese, etc. at a single sitting while everyone else goes without...)
I have had friends who have done similar things in the past and the resentment that can build up after repeat violations can get pretty strong- so while each infraction itself may seem "insignificant" to you, to the person offended it may have built up to be much more. Nobody likes to be told they are unwanted, but try to see this as a chance to change for the better and hopefully the next game group you join will appreciate your new-found abilities and mutual respect will result... and who knows, you may enjoy that next group more.
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Personally I view swearing as a sign of immaturity, or as TOZ said a lack of personal discipline and self-control. It's sad that it's not the norm to not swear, but hey what can you do.
While it can be a sign of immaturity, a mature person can choose to swear when appropriate.
I went out to dinner with a civilian friend, and a couple of my military coworkers were at the bar. We sat down with them and chatted for awhile. When they left, my friend looked at my wife and said 'I have never heard Steve swear that much before.' It was an interesting example of how different social situations make you react differently.
Point. Perhaps should have specified "frequent or habitual swearing". Everything has its time and place, after all.
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It's as much the duty of a host to avoid making unreasonable demands as it is the duty of a visitor to accede to reasonable demands made by the host.Personally I view swearing as a sign of immaturity, or as TOZ said a lack of personal discipline and self-control. It's sad that it's not the norm to not swear, but hey what can you do.
The point being, however, that he's in someone else's home and should respect their wishes. When your host says "please don't do this" and you do it anyway, why should you be surprised when you're not invited to return?
If you think "please don't use foul language in my house" is an unreasonable demand I'd hate to see what you would think of actual unreasonable demands.
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It's as much the duty of a host to avoid making unreasonable demands as it is the duty of a visitor to accede to reasonable demands made by the host.
Particularly in the case of having a group of people over at a certain point you have to consider the possibility that offering to host isn't something you should do if you're going to flip out over minor issues. Of course this changes if you're being drafted into hosting but that's a separate issue.
So....
Please Pay for your share of the food we all ordered to eat.
Please do Not drop f-bombs around my kids
Please Don't help yourself to the fridge AFTER I asked you not to.
Are unreasonable?
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Probably get up and leave on the spot maybe tell you to "Go - - yourself" just for giggles while I do so.
If you think "please don't use foul language in my house" is an unreasonable demand I'd hate to see what you would think of actual unreasonable demands.
Then I would say you most certainly would never be welcome in my home or presence again, since you apparently lack the maturity to acquiesce to as simple a request as that.
Either you completely miss the point of the request or have so little respect for your gaming friends as to refuse such a simple asking, in either case I certainly wouldn't want to spend time with someone like that. Good riddance.
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A bunch of stuff that bothered someone
Look, here's how these situations go down:
You do something that bothers someone. That one thing you listed bothered them, a lot. It could be something else that was not listed, such as something they think of as shallow, like perhaps the way you pronounce words, play your character, eat, etc.
Maybe they aren't good with confrontation or communication, or maybe they hinted you shouldn't and you didn't pick up on it. We don't know, we weren't there.
None the less, it happened at some point and enough people noticed and were annoyed.
Then it snowballed. It always does. Eventually you did something enough that they nitpicked every little thing you did and found fault with all of it. We all do this.
I, for instance, don't look people in the eye when talking to them and stare at others when I ask for their turn. This is confusing. Does it bother people? No. If it did, they'd probably get annoyed and also point out that my cooking isn't always great, I tend to pass gas a lot, and I expect some help in the kitchen and don't so much "ask" for help as I "tell" people to help.
Getting back to you, yes, some of the things listed seem innocent enough and aren't THAT big of a deal when viewed by us, the internet, without being there for 2 or 3 years.
If you want to avoid it, learn from these things and apply that learning in the future.
1. Ask for permission to drink others stuff (we're in a recession, money is tight)
2. Curb your swearing a little in those situations (they could have kids, neighbours, etc. that don't want to hear that)
3. Make sure that any debts are important to YOU and don't wait to be asked. I know debts bug me, and someone forgetting is awkward and annoying.
4. If you are bringing snacks and no one is eating them but you, assess the situation before just giving up.
Ask yourself:
Is it because you leave them beside you and they don't feel comfortable reaching for your snacks? Did you offer anyone them (every time, not just the first time)?
Is it because you eat them all before anyone has a chance? I'm not calling you fat, I do this too.
Is it because they are on specific diets? What are others bringing? If I bring fruit all the time, I'm not eating cookies.
When you or others reach in to grab a snack, have they licked their hands recently or perhaps not washed? Even if someone did this once it can turn off others to doing this again?
Are you buying from a store everyone else knows has rats? It's silly but it could be why.
Good ways to solve this are saying "Hey, I bring these [types of snacks] each time however it seems I'm the only one eating them" to them and let them say "Yeah, no one likes those" or "Gee, you're right, we always forget about them" or "Yeah, that place has rats, we thought you knew".
If you don't want to change, and feel they are being nit-picky, then move on. Is this going to matter in 3 months? Does it matter what complete strangers think on the internet?
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If you think "please don't use foul language in my house" is an unreasonable demand I'd hate to see what you would think of actual unreasonable demands.Probably get up and leave on the spot maybe tell you to "Go - - yourself" just for giggles while I do so. Then again this all depends on what you think is an unreasonable demand?
But as I said before cursing is a part of how I and many other people speak it's a means to provide emphasis in many cases or display disapproval.
For example, in our last game two of my party members completely botched a plan I had set up that would have meant us perfectly achieving our goals and I said "You have got to be f-ing kidding me."
Could I have expressed my disapproval in another way? Yes, I could have excluded the curse however it lacks the same sort of impact it's like the use of an exclamation point in a sentence but doing so verbally would require raising my voice which is also rude.
And with that, I leave the thread.
As nothing is actually being achived here I can only hope it is locked before things get worse.
To the OP, were you being a bad guest? YES.
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The fact alone that you were booted from a game says you were "guilty." Period. Accept that, correct your errors, and try to do better next time.
Really? Because I've been in many situations where I've been booted from various group activities and whatnot for laughable reasons and in these cases "correcting" my behavior would be inherently harmful to my well being and I've gladly wrote it off as a case of people being jerks and gone on to find people I can actually spend time with which doesn't feel like being stuffed in a straightjacket for every hour I spend with them.
There can be a fine line between being sufficiently respectful and being so restricted in your actions as to negate the entire point of engaging in social activities.
Mind you I do think the OP wasn't sufficiently respectful but I wouldn't boot him over the issues in question then again it's also more likely that those were just excuses for booting him because they didn't like him in the first place.
Hey, people can be jerks. Nobody ever said their reasons were absolutely airtight, but the fact that they took enough initiative to remove you from whatever situation says plenty.
Like I said in my post above, I've been there too. I got kicked out of a band I had helped form, and was the chief songwriter for, for over 6 years. I made all kinds of claims of foul play, BS, favoritism, etc. But at the end of the day, it happened. If I were so sweet an innocent, it would not have happened.
In the OP's case, simply for the reasons he gave, he would have quickly been booted from any of my groups.
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And with that, I leave the thread.
As nothing is actually being achived here I can only hope it is locked before things get worse.
Yeah have to agree, we'll just end up running in circles at this rate. No one's convincing anyone of anything here.
Adios.
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The host tells you to bend over a chair so he can paddle you with a lumber saw. Unreasonable? :)
It's as much the duty of a host to avoid making unreasonable demands as it is the duty of a visitor to accede to reasonable demands made by the host.
It is the duty of every member of the group to respect the wishes of the rest. If one cannot do that, one should remove oneself from the group.
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If I were so sweet an innocent, it would not have happened.
Josh, I have to give you real credit for being able to say that. Nobody wants to admit to the darker sides of their personality... when I was much younger, I had a close friend admit to me one day that she thought I always had an arrogant streak in me... which I hope I have since recognized and worked on- but I was shocked at the time. It was only my trust in my friend that caused me to take it seriously and work on that foible in my personality.
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Geeks and gamers are often very bad at airing their greivances in a timely and proportional fashion.
I, myself, have certainly dealt with situations where a minor problem became a major problem because people were unwilling to talk to me about it. If anyone had just came up to me and explained the issue, I would have corrected my behavior or we would have agreed to some other resolution.
As surprised as the OP sounds, my guess is that there was a serious communication barrier here. The hosts were talking to the GM about the problems the player was causing, but neither the hosts nor the GM were communicating with the player about their issues with his behavior.
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If I were so sweet an innocent, it would not have happened.Josh, I have to give you real credit for being able to say that. Nobody wants to admit to the darker sides of their personality... when I was much younger, I had a close friend admit to me one day that she thought I always had an arrogant streak in me... which I hope I have since recognized and worked on- but I was shocked at the time. It was only my trust in my friend that caused me to take it seriously and work on that foible in my personality.
Thank you. It was bad. I still have a ways to go.
I sympathize with the OP, I really do. But, how many times does it have to happen before a person stops blaming everyone else? Humility is a rare thing these days.
People have different standards of decency, and it just sounds like the OP and this particular group do not work together.
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I just don't understand why people get this upset over what amounts to less than $20 worth of merchandise. It's their house, they have the right to kick whomever out they please, but 20 bucks over the course of a year and a half?!?!!!?! I was raised that a guest was waited on and made to feel comfortable. If someone is thirsty, give him drink. If someone is hungry, feed him. If someone spills something on his shirt, lend him one while you wash it. We don't care if you're just the plumber, you at least get a glass of iced tea and asked if you want us to make you a sandwich while in our house. Even the first group of gamers I hung around with were like this. We would game around a giant steaming pot of Shepherd's Pie or Chicken n Dumplings, feasting as we played. I think the dice even got lost in the mashed potatoes once.
But, but but....people are different. I, like the OP, would have been taken aback by the lack of sharing. If they told me "no milk" I would not touch the milk (milk being an expensive beverage), or if they had an issue with eating pizza I had not payed for, the most I would have asked for was a single slice, if any at all. Though I personally can't stand eating in front of someone who is not partaking (makes me feel like a pig).
Now the cursing thing, that is something that would draw the line for me. I don't want F-Bombs or alternative words for genitalia being flung around my little cousins or grandmother, and they probably had a similar issue in the household. That's the major strike in my book.
It sounds to me like a major miscommunication in expectations. All being said, they have the right to kick anyone they want, even if it does seem a bit petty, and the OP just has to deal with it.
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It's not about the monetary value, it's the principle. The lack of forethought or respect for those involved.
Cursing in my house in front of my kids costs nothing, but if you continue to do it after I ask you to stop, you're leaving.
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About the communication issue.
If someone tells you not to drink their milk and you do, they didn't fall down on the communication, you fell down on the listening.
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And its "my own volition" not violation.
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Se la vi.
If you are going to correct someone, make sure you are also correct.
It's not its in this case.
Also, the correct French spelling is c'est la vie.
IF I start playing tabletop I might bring my own food if I don't want to pay for expensive pizza. Anyway I don't get how to expect anyone to enjoy a game if they have to pay for something each time they play it.
IF I start playing tabletop I might bring my own food if I don't want to pay for expensive pizza. Anyway I don't get how to expect anyone to enjoy a game if they have to pay for something each time they play it.
If you don't want to pay for it, then you don't have to eat it. Most reasonable gaming groups are fine with someone not pitching in as long as they don't also partake.
This is a troll post right?
At this point, I assume it must be.
Milk?
Oh, man, thank you. I wasn't going to bring it up, but seriously, right? Oy.
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I find it hard to believe that there was no ATM nearby. Pizza is ordered on the first night. No money no problem. Next night when pizza comes up you should have said "Let me run to the ATM". Problem solved. And you know even if it is out of network or whatever, paying that fee will remind you of your social obligation and will keep you in the good graces of those you play with.
If you are not the host you bring something to share. Always. Even if they do not seem to like it. And if you get that vibe, choose something different.
If you like milk at the game, bring milk. And leave what is left for the host is a classy way to go.
I think it comes down to this IMO, you get booted and instead of trying to make any sort of ammends to the people you wronged, you come to a message board for support? And then when most people (after listening to your side and likley there are other perspectives here) disagree with you and say you are in the wrong you argue with them?
You and people like you are one of the reasons I do not have a face to face group. Who wants to put up with your lack of manners and cluelessness? Who wants to argue with you about our opinion after you asked for our opinion? I do not know, but I can only imagine this charming way of handling social interaction spills into the game, and frankly I play for recreation. You screw that up for me by being difficult and I am all set.
In short, I am guessing they were more generous with you than you deserved. Apologize. Pay what you owe to them. Learn your lesson and move on.
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