Let's Talk About Anime

[Grimmy]

If you could only afford Netflix or Hulu subscription and had to choose, which would you choose for anime?

[Aranna]

Grimmy wrote:

It does have me wondering how my nieces are effected by media they watch, like disney heroines ... They seem to be a little less 1-dimensional than when I was a kid I guess... I still have yet to see one that doesn't adhere to pretty much that same overblown concept of what is feminine.

Yeah Mulan is an empowering story but I wonder what mulan really looked like if she did live. It kind of robs the story of some of it's power to give her the usual disney heroine look.

I've been playing Super Smash Bros with them on WII. The younger niece definitely gravitates towards the "princess" characters like peach, zelda, rosalina... The older of the two plays female warrior characters, lucina, sheik, samas. I think across the board they are the usual kind of girly depictions, not overly sexualized except for Samas but all kind of samey in that idealized "perfect" "pretty" way.

I did notice when they watch my little pony and they talk about which one's their favorite they both mention the one that does hair and make-up or whatever, you know the white one with purple hair? Even when another pony has done something really heroic or brave in the episode and charity or vanity or whatever her name is has just acted kind of shallow really.

Anyway way off topic, sorry guys. Back to anime.

I actually love Mulan. It kind of shows typical Disney style acceptance of her after her secret is out... which might not be realistic but that's Disney. It IS however one of those rare shows that give you a female protagonist who isn't rendered hyper sexified to make the story instead about everyone else and not her. It is definitely HER story.

I haven't seen My Little Pony... I tried to watch one as an adult... but it just felt too awkward like subconsciously I knew it was for like 6 year olds, not me.

[Aranna]

TOZ wrote:

Aranna wrote:

PS: I am past the GGO arc in SAO II now, wow what a sad story, I actually cried. Awesome so far!

Don't put away the tissues.

~laughs~

I shall keep the tissues close.

[Lemmy]

Arnwyn wrote:

Dubs, for sure.

Subs are distracting. (I'm watching a show, not reading it. Especially when the visuals are quite important for the types of anime I prefer.)

I think this is a matter of getting used to it. After a while, you barely notice the subtitles...

People who grew up in English-speaking nations are mostly unused to subtitles, but for everyone else, watching movies and TV series with subtitles is pretty common, so you get pretty good at it.

I can honestly say I have never lost anything from a scene because of the subtitles. Not because I've some weird talent for ultra speed-reading, but because it's really not that difficult once you get used to it.

[Aranna]

Freehold DM wrote:

Will always love fanservice and cheesecake. I look forward to defeating Aranna by shoving her escape pod into the asteroid she made careen towards earth and making her watch as I save the day all by my lonesome. Again.

Should I be flattered or horrified that you see me as Char?

I mean I hate masks for one. :p
And it was BOTH their newtype energies combined that saved Earth.

[Aranna]

Grimmy wrote:

Do you guys prefers subs or dubs for anime?

I greatly prefer subs unless I'm so tired I can barely read.

I clearly prefer Subs.

That said, there ARE good Dubs available. Some like Naruto and Cowbow Beebop are better than the Subs.

[Aranna]

thejeff wrote:

Dubs and subs! At the same time.

Just to be amused by the differences in translation.

I have done this before and it is a blast. Seeing the often wildly different translations being given are hilarious.

[Lemmy]

Aranna wrote:

I actually love Mulan. It kind of shows typical Disney style acceptance of her after her secret is out... which might not be realistic but that's Disney. It IS however one of those rare shows that give you a female protagonist who isn't rendered hyper sexified to make the story instead about everyone else and not her. It is definitely HER story.

I haven't seen My Little Pony... I tried to watch one as an adult... but it just felt too awkward like subconsciously I knew it was for like 6 year olds, not me.

Mulan is... odd. I remember liking the movie when I was a kid, but watching it again a couple years ago, my reactions is a very sound "meh"... Mostly because the villain is so forgettable.

I watched 5 or 6 episodes of MLP just to see what the fuzz was all about. It's well-written and well-animated. Overall, a pretty good show... But it's really not a show I'd follow. I'm obviously not its target audience, me having no interest in it is not due to any flaws of the show, it's just something that doesn't fit my tastes.

[Aranna]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Ah, El Hazard. Love that one.

I loved El-Hazard as well. It reminds me of my newbie days in the 90's. I never did see the sequels are they any good?

Another interesting experience from the old days. Watching Ranma 1/2 in the original Japanese with NO Dubs OR Subs. Just a script translation printed off on paper. Talk about hard to both watch and read, ouch. Anyone ever try this?

[Aranna]

Grimmy wrote:

If you could only afford Netflix or Hulu subscription and had to choose, which would you choose for anime?

I couldn't imagine such a horror. Having a boyfriend with close ties to the Japanese fan base has WAY too many advantages in availability of watching the stuff. Not that I suggest dumping the one your with over something so shallow.

[Aranna]

Aranna wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Dubs and subs! At the same time.

Just to be amused by the differences in translation.

I have done this before and it is a blast. Seeing the often wildly different translations being given are hilarious.

How many of you speak any Japanese? I know a few phrases and words. It is fun to note when I am doing anime watching and I hear a phrase I understand but it doesn't get translated at all or more commonly gets turned into some lame English phrase they apparently thought was equivalent.

[DM Under The Bridge]

Yeah, it is good to be able to personally know more was said than what was subtitled. Tone and common Japanese sayings and how that relates to the context all can factor in.

Education - making anime better.

[Sissyl]

I am always equally fascinated by the concept that subtitles and dubbing seem always to use different translations. WTF? It is not cheap to do japanese-english translations.

[Alzrius]

Aranna wrote:

I have spoken out against objectifying fantasy art too... I am sure that doesn't surprise anyone here. It was used to lure young boys into the hobby. "Hey look kid you could be adventuring next to that hottie!" And unless I am mistaken somehow... it worked. The same sort of art now is used to lure young boys toward video games.

The idea that "objectifying" art is being used to "lure" boys into the RPG and video game hobbies is fairly difficult to back up. While it's certainly true that the art is meant for the consideration of those viewing it, that's something that's true of all artwork.

Leaving aside the issue of fictitious characters somehow objectifying real people, however, is the issue that it's the artwork that's "luring" young boys into games. Any sort of historical context will inform you that this isn't true.

Jon Peterson, RPG historian and author of the excellent Playing at the World, writes in his article about the first female gamers:

Quote:

It was Avalon Hill’s magazine The General that introduced the gaming community to itself. Like the War Game Digest, The General started small, with just seventy-two subscribers, though an intense promotion increased the tally to five hundred by the second issue, with steady gains following. The printed roster of subscribers in the first four issues of The General yields only three recognizably female names from a total well over six hundred: Mrs. E. H. Burford, Martha Finch, and then a co-subscription for Mr. and Mrs. James Lee Matthews. The initial audience for Avalon Hill’s games was overwhelming male and youthful, with an average age hovering around seventeen.

[...]

At the beginning of 1974, on the next iteration of the survey, Strategy & Tactics reported, “We asked how many female subscribers we have. The number is roughly one-half of 1%.” That article goes on to explain their survey methodology, which they believed reflected “over 10,000 different gamers,” a sum they credibly represented as the largest study group available to the industry.

That figure, that roughly one half of 1% of “gamers” were female, is borne out by other contemporary sources as well. The “Great Lakes Gamers Census” of January 1974, assembled by the Midwest Gaming Association, tabulates more than one thousand gamers in the Midwest. It contains five recognizably female names: Marie Cockrill, Anne Laumer, Denise Bonis, and then two couples: Mr. & Mrs. Linda Anderson, and Mr. and Mrs. Paul Pawlak. It was this overwhelmingly male community which was the target of contemporary periodicals branded for “gamers” like Gamers Guide. And it was this community of gamers which was the intended audience of Dungeons & Dragons.

To put it another way, the RPG hobby - even back when it was still the wargaming hobby - was always slanted towards a predominantly male audience; the artwork has had little to do with why boys are attracted to such types of games to begin with.

Likewise, even a brief review of the best-selling video games of all time will show that they're games for which titillating artwork is nowhere to be found (the top three are Tetris, Wii Sports, and Minecraft). So I find the idea that boys are playing video games because of "hotties" to be one that's somewhat dubious.

[Alzrius]

Grimmy wrote:

If you could only afford Netflix or Hulu subscription and had to choose, which would you choose for anime?

Neither; go for Crunchyroll.

DM Under the Bridge wrote:

Yeah, it is good to be able to personally know more was said than what was subtitled. Tone and common Japanese sayings and how that relates to the context all can factor in.

Education - making anime better.

It was my enthusiasm for anime that led to my getting an undergraduate degree in Japanese Studies. So in my case, it was "anime - making education better."

[TOZ]

Aranna wrote:

That said, there ARE good Dubs available. Some like Naruto and Cowbow Beebop are better than the Subs.

BELIEVE IT!

[Alzrius]

Caineach wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Caineach wrote:

I thought I watched season 2 on netflix, but I may have gone somewhere else for it.

I'll check again. I'm using Netflix on my Wii U, which while it's great to be able to control it from a tablet-controller, the interface for searching related topics isn't as good as it is on other devices (that is, I can't seem to search by genre).

They change the name to Magi: The Kingdom of Magic, so that does change searches.

Well I'll be damned...that is on Netflix!

Thanks for the heads-up Caineach!

[John Benbo]

Grimmy wrote:

If you could only afford Netflix or Hulu subscription and had to choose, which would you choose for anime?

I have both and I think Hulu has a much bigger selection of anime than Netflix currently, however Hulu still has ads even with a paid subscription. Netflix used to have a lot more anime than it currently has, but they have been doing a better job on getting some current stuff (like Attack on Titan and Sword Art Online). Plus their exclusive, Knights of Sidonia, is pretty amazing.

Hulu, despite the ads for a paid subscription (usually 1 or 2 short ads every 5-7) has the advantage that they have simulcast rights for some of the current popular shows coming out of Japan, so for things like Log Horizon, you can watch it an hour after it premieres in Japan. And like I said, I think they have more overall content than Netflix (unless you plan on getting the DVD mail subscription).

Crunchyroll is another good service- same price as Hulu and similar content as well as simulcasts but no ads. I tend to go to Crunchyroll first and if its not on there (like Accel World), I look for it on Hulu.

I have all three as I can stream them with the Playstation on my TV which is a huge plus. I would add Funimation but unfortunately, they are not compatible with the Playstation yet- you need other streaming devices like a Roku device.

[Freehold DM]

Grimmy wrote:

If you could only afford Netflix or Hulu subscription and had to choose, which would you choose

Hulu has more old school stuff and less dubs.

[Freehold DM]

Aranna wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

Will always love fanservice and cheesecake. I look forward to defeating Aranna by shoving her escape pod into the asteroid she made careen towards earth and making her watch as I save the day all by my lonesome. Again.

Should I be flattered or horrified that you see me as Char?

I mean I hate masks for one. :p
And it was BOTH their newtype energies combined that saved Earth.

technically it was the deus ex machina created by amuros new girlfriend (man, the dude has a short memory...sayla, frau, beltochika...rotating door for his bedroom) that increased the power of all newtypes present(if you buy into the whole "everyone's a new type and doesn't know it yet" theory), thereby saving the earth.

[LazarX]

Aranna wrote:

I disagree completely Sissyl. Look how far gay rights came in such a short time when they changed tactics to instead showcasing how horribly they are being treated. What was it something like 75-80% of America was anti-gay just 10 years ago... now that they started just using a message of "look at the horrible way people treat us" that has dropped to I think the number was less than 40% anti-gay. The way to get something changed IS SOCIAL PRESSURE. I figure in another 10 years people will wonder what all that gay fuss was about, as long as they keep up the social pressure.

If people start socially speaking out against fan service in enough numbers than companies WILL listen and for the simple fear of bad press stop making it.

The reason gay rights came "so far recently" is because of having to have walked that long painful road before it. We had to ge to that point where the present tactics would work. And that's been true for every single group that's been liberated in social conciousness, the decades of hard slog that had to go beforehand. And that included having martyrs like Matthew Shepard, all the civil rights workers that were murdered in the Deep South, there's no easy way, no shortcut to civil rights progression.

We've come so high today because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

[LazarX]

Grimmy wrote:

If you could only afford Netflix or Hulu subscription and had to choose, which would you choose for anime?

At this time, it's no contest. Netflix beats Hulu six ways from sunday when it comes to that area of content.

[Lemmy]

Sissyl wrote:

I am always equally fascinated by the concept that subtitles and dubbing seem always to use different translations. WTF? It is not cheap to do japanese-english translations.

That's probably because dubs have to match lip movement to some extent, and the timing is more restricted, while subtitles, you basically read it in a fraction of a second and move on... So they have to adapt a little to make sense in the new language.

[TriOmegaZero]

Lemmy wrote:

So they have to adapt a little to make sense in the new language.

Observe!

[Sissyl]

What makes it even worse is when you realize that neither the dub or the sub translation is anywhere close to what was said in Japanese.

[Movin]

Well at the very least Your hovercraft isn't full of eels.

[Tinkergoth]

Movin wrote:

Well at the very least Your hovercraft isn't full of eels.

True, but does that also mean my nipples don't explode with delight? Cause honestly, that part sounds like it could be fun :P

EDIT: Is that the Flying Circus version of the Hungarian sketch? I must have seen it at some point since I've seen the whole series more than once, but the version that sticks in my head has the police officer stealing a... crap, can't remember if it's a bicycle or a horse, to get to the store. Either way I assume that must be the version from And Now For Something Completely Different.

[Aranna]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

So they have to adapt a little to make sense in the new language.

Observe!

Totally awesome this says it all.

[Greylurker]

So I checked out Yatterman Night the other day and it's an interesting reversal.

The original Yatterman series was a 1977 kids show of the Heroes vs. Villains sort of thing. Very fun, very light hearted

Yatterman Night moves several generations past the original series. After a great war the Villains of Yatterman were sent into exile and their descendants have scrapping by ever since. Meanwhile Yatterman went on to create the Yatter Kingdom.

A sweet little girl raised on the stories of Yatterman, discovers she is a descendant of the villains which is a bit soul crushing for her but she manages to move past it.
Until her mom gets sick. Since Yatterman is a hero she is certain that if she goes to Yatter Kingdom and asks for help Yatterman will save her mom. So she and her Mom's friends set out by boat.

With their goal in sight suddenly a giant wall pops up out of the ocean and Yatterman 1 and 2 appear telling them to turn back. Then they shoot at the group until they leave.

Mom dies and the disillusioned little girl, deciding that Yatterman is no hero if he would let someone die, takes up the mantle of her ancestors and vows to go to Yatter Kingdom to defeat Yatterman.

[Freehold DM]

Greylurker wrote:

So I checked out Yatterman Night the other day and it's an interesting reversal.

The original Yatterman series was a 1977 kids show of the Heroes vs. Villains sort of thing. Very fun, very light hearted

Yatterman Night moves several generations past the original series. After a great war the Villains of Yatterman were sent into exile and their descendants have scrapping by ever since. Meanwhile Yatterman went on to create the Yatter Kingdom.

A sweet little girl raised on the stories of Yatterman, discovers she is a descendant of the villains which is a bit soul crushing for her but she manages to move past it.
Until her mom gets sick. Since Yatterman is a hero she is certain that if she goes to Yatter Kingdom and asks for help Yatterman will save her mom. So she and her Mom's friends set out by boat.

With their goal in sight suddenly a giant wall pops up out of the ocean and Yatterman 1 and 2 appear telling them to turn back. Then they shoot at the group until they leave.

Mom dies and the disillusioned little girl, deciding that Yatterman is no hero if he would let someone die, takes up the mantle of her ancestors and vows to go to Yatter Kingdom to defeat Yatterman.

Where did you see this?

[Freehold DM]

Watching second gundam movie today to keep up with my new years reresolution.

[havoc xiii]

Sooooooo My wife and myself tried to watch Magi: The Magic Kingdom of course at the time I didn't realize it was the second season which explains the confusion at first, but someone here said no fanservice....

Spoiler:

Alladin tries to mottorboat one of the female characters twice in the one episode...you must have a very different definition than the rest of the world. Also the fact that Alladin appears like 5 years old was also weird with having him act like that...

So far completly uninterested maybe we will try the first season but unlikly we couldn't even finish the episode we were watching.

[Caineach]

havoc xiii wrote:

Sooooooo My wife and myself tried to watch Magi: The Magic Kingdom of course at the time I didn't realize it was the second season which explains the confusion at first, but someone here said no fanservice....** spoiler omitted **

So far completly uninterested maybe we will try the first season but unlikly we couldn't even finish the episode we were watching.

Your spoiler is one of the few complaints I have about the series. It only happens in a handful of episodes, but it happens mostly at the beginning of the seasons before they get into plot, where it is most likely to turn off viewers.

I believe the character in question is supposed to be around 16.

[Aranna]

Wow I finished SAO II I think I only now just stopped crying... and that's because I have my friend complaining about MMORPGs to me on the phone as I type. This second season does a lot to redeem the failed second half of the first season.

[Greylurker]

Freehold DM wrote:

Where did you see this?

It's on the Funimation site. Episodes come out on Sundays.

On a related note I just downloaded the Funimation App for my PS3 and it is working very nicely, actually easier to navigate than their main site too.

Come to think of it has anyone posted a list of what's out this season and where?

Lets see Funi is streaming
Yatterman Night
Maria the Virgin Witch
Cute High defense club LOVE (also on Crunchyroll)
Samurai Warriors (also on Crunchyroll)
Death Parade
Yurikuma
Absolute Duo
The Rolling Girls
Assassination Classroom
Yona of the Dawn (also on Crunchyroll)
Laughing under the clouds
Garo
Kamisama Kiss season 2
Tokyo Ghoul

Crunchyroll got
Magic Kaito 1412
Aldnoah Season 2
Cute High defense
Testament of Sister new Devil
Samurai Warriors
Military (3 minute show)
Kancoll
Saekano
Unlimited Fafnir
Jojo's Bizzar adventure Egypt arc
Fafner Exodus
Goumet Girl Grafiti
World Break
Durara Season 2
ISUCA

and Crunchy still has a blank spot in thier list

These are the only streaming sites I'm keeping track of so I don't know what Hulu and Viz might have

[Alzrius]

havoc xiii wrote:

Sooooooo My wife and myself tried to watch Magi: The Magic Kingdom of course at the time I didn't realize it was the second season which explains the confusion at first, but someone here said no fanservice....** spoiler omitted **

So far completly uninterested maybe we will try the first season but unlikly we couldn't even finish the episode we were watching.

I suspect that you're referring to me. I should point out that I didn't say that it had no fan-service, but rather that there was almost none, but the occasional scene throughout the first season.

I didn't include mention of the scene(s) you indicated because, to my mind, that wasn't fan-service. Simply put, to me fan-service is meant to be erotic titillation; the scene you mentioned struck me as being purely comedic in nature. It's meant to make the audience laugh, rather than being arousing. As such, I discounted it.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Grimmy wrote:

Do you guys prefers subs or dubs for anime?

I greatly prefer subs unless I'm so tired I can barely read.

Subs, dude.

I get an inordinately large kick out of hearing words that got ripped right out of English, spoken with a Japanese accent. ("Japan doesn't have a word for that?!") Also, if I generally like an anime but not its voices/sounds, I can mute it and still know what's going on.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Alzrius wrote:

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.

I can see why Aranna pegged you for a troll.

The irony is that, without expounding on that, your statement here is trolling in and of itself.

And the tragedy is that a role player such as yourself needs more expound-ment to see a problem with fanservice. Maybe the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy anime, role play an impressionable teenage girl with low self-esteem. And then imagine that you always have been and always will be that female anime fan until the day you die.

That'll be much more enlightening than spending hours and hours throwing every conceivable argument at some anonymous internet posters you feel compelled to argue with.

[TOZ]

Relevant to the tangent.

[Sissyl]

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.

I can see why Aranna pegged you for a troll.

The irony is that, without expounding on that, your statement here is trolling in and of itself.

And the tragedy is that a role player such as yourself needs more expound-ment to see a problem with fanservice. Maybe the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy anime, role play an impressionable teenage girl with low self-esteem. And then imagine that you always have been and always will be that female anime fan until the day you die.

That'll be much more enlightening than spending hours and hours throwing every conceivable argument at some anonymous internet posters you feel compelled to argue with.

Another impassioned plea for protecting the IMPRESSIONABLE people with LOW SELF-ESTEEM. There is a similar problem with every single activity that shows ANYONE being good at anything, being praised, being in good shape, doing anything that might be a problem in any situation, and so on. Is it okay to show elite sports?

[thejeff]

Sissyl wrote:

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.

I can see why Aranna pegged you for a troll.

The irony is that, without expounding on that, your statement here is trolling in and of itself.

And the tragedy is that a role player such as yourself needs more expound-ment to see a problem with fanservice. Maybe the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy anime, role play an impressionable teenage girl with low self-esteem. And then imagine that you always have been and always will be that female anime fan until the day you die.

That'll be much more enlightening than spending hours and hours throwing every conceivable argument at some anonymous internet posters you feel compelled to argue with.

Another impassioned plea for protecting the IMPRESSIONABLE people with LOW SELF-ESTEEM. There is a similar problem with every single activity that shows ANYONE being good at anything, being praised, being in good shape, doing anything that might be a problem in any situation, and so on. Is it okay to show elite sports?

What does that have to do with anything?

Showing girls that, regardless of their other accomplishments, they have to be sexy and show off for men, has nothing at all to with "ANYONE being good at anything, being praised, being in good shape, doing anything that might be a problem in any situation, and so on. Is it okay to show elite sports?" Other than you jumping on the Low Self-esteem buzzword.

[Caineach]

TOZ wrote:

Relevant to the tangent.

And in comics there is a problem because the only fan service is for men. If you think that is true about anime, you have never seen shoujo. There are tons of shows geared towards women, and I can think of a number of reverse harem shows.

[Freehold DM]

I have noticed free has not been mentioned except in passing.

[TriOmegaZero]

In passing?

[Aranna]

TOZ wrote:

Relevant to the tangent.

Thank you TOZ. I wish more fathers were like that, it fills my heart with hope.

[Aranna]

thejeff wrote:

Sissyl wrote:

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.

I can see why Aranna pegged you for a troll.

The irony is that, without expounding on that, your statement here is trolling in and of itself.

And the tragedy is that a role player such as yourself needs more expound-ment to see a problem with fanservice. Maybe the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy anime, role play an impressionable teenage girl with low self-esteem. And then imagine that you always have been and always will be that female anime fan until the day you die.

That'll be much more enlightening than spending hours and hours throwing every conceivable argument at some anonymous internet posters you feel compelled to argue with.

Another impassioned plea for protecting the IMPRESSIONABLE people with LOW SELF-ESTEEM. There is a similar problem with every single activity that shows ANYONE being good at anything, being praised, being in good shape, doing anything that might be a problem in any situation, and so on. Is it okay to show elite sports?

What does that have to do with anything?

Showing girls that, regardless of their other accomplishments, they have to be sexy and show off for men, has nothing at all to with "ANYONE being good at anything, being praised, being in good shape, doing anything that might be a problem in any situation, and so on. Is it okay to show elite sports?" Other than you jumping on the Low Self-esteem buzzword.

Exactly.

[TriOmegaZero]

Aranna wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Relevant to the tangent.

Thank you TOZ. I wish more fathers were like that, it fills my heart with hope.

I enjoy the different responses given to it. Shows where people are coming from.

[Alzrius]

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

And the tragedy is that a role player such as yourself needs more expound-ment to see a problem with fanservice.

Here I'd have said that the tragedy was that you're objectively stating that something is a problem, rather than recognizing that this is simply an opinion.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

Maybe the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy anime, role play an impressionable teenage girl with low self-esteem. And then imagine that you always have been and always will be that female anime fan until the day you die.

The sheer number of presumptions made in this example are staggering.

You've highlighted that she's already impressionable - which is either redundant if you accept that all children are this way, or a notable underlying condition if you don't think that all children are this way - and that she has low self-esteem to begin with.

Is it not worth asking why she has such low self-esteem to start with, let alone what can be done about that? Because you've condemned her to remain that way "until [she] die[s]."

One would think that the more worthwhile role-playing would be that girl engaging in some theraputic role-playing with a licensed mental health professional, since there's clearly some sort of reason that she has low self-esteem to begin with which will remain a problem whether or not she ever watches fan-service.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

That'll be much more enlightening than spending hours and hours throwing every conceivable argument at some anonymous internet posters you feel compelled to argue with.

It's enlightening only to the extent that you don't seem to recognize that, even in the example you made up whole-cloth, the pre-existing low self-esteem is the issue.

thejeff wrote:

What does that have to do with anything?

It has to do with the fact that the example uses a flawed premise.

thejeff wrote:

Showing girls that, regardless of their other accomplishments, they have to be sexy and show off for men, has nothing at all to with "ANYONE being good at anything, being praised, being in good shape, doing anything that might be a problem in any situation, and so on. Is it okay to show elite sports?" Other than you jumping on the Low Self-esteem buzzword.

This presumes that fan-service necessarily encapulates (and flawlessly transmits) the message that "girls [...] have to be sexy and show off for men," which is far from certain.

Likewise, even if children are exposed to that message as an unintended consequence of interacting with the world, the burden is not on the world to stop sending anything that could possibly be interpreted that way. Rather, the onus is on those childrens' parents to make sure that such messages aren't internalized.

[thejeff]

Caineach wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Relevant to the tangent.

And in comics there is a problem because the only fan service is for men. If you think that is true about anime, you have never seen shoujo. There are tons of shows geared towards women, and I can think of a number of reverse harem shows.

That's probably the best counter argument I've seen yet.

Despite some similarities and despite common impressions in the US, anime is a very broad term. Much more a media than a genre.

[Freehold DM]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

In passing?

I think I used the wrong term...